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Fursultiamine request:staple for stim users

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    Fursultiamine request:staple for stim users


    This is present in the new version of AMP but I'd rather just buy it by itself as I do not want to use several of the other actives in AMP 2.0.

    Please post here to confirm interest and show demand for this in bulk form,if you use stims (any sort of heart trouble is applicable) and/or have joint pain....read on.

    The following is grifted from the AMP write up,which prompted a Pubmed search yielding the three studies posted below:

    "Thiamine is one of the most important vitamins for carbohydrate and fat metabolism but it suffers from poor bioavailability. That is why easily absorbed thiamine pro-drugs were developed and fursultiamine is the most effective of them all. Cellular ATP production in muscles and the brain are greatly enhanced with fursultiamine, and it has been shown to improve exercise performance and reduce muscle fatigue. Fursultiamine is also known to reduce or eliminate the accelerated heartbeat that often accompanies the use of stimulants such as ephedrine."






    The first study shows it has positive effect towards joint health and the latter two show evidence of cardiovascular benefit:



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    1: Inflamm Res. 2005 Jun;54(6):249-55.Click here to read Links
    Fursultiamine, a vitamin B1 derivative, enhances chondroprotective effects of glucosamine hydrochloride and chondroitin sulfate in rabbit experimental osteoarthritis.
    Kobayashi T, Notoya K, Nakamura A, Akimoto K.

    Pharmacology Research Laboratories I, Pharmaceutical Research Division, Takeda Pharmaceutical Company Limited, 17-85, Jusohonmachi 2-chome, Yodogawa-ku, Osaka, 532-8686, Japan.

    OBJECT AND DESIGN: The therapeutic effect of glucosamine hydrochloride (GH) and chondroitin sulfate (CS) in combination with fursultiamine, a vitamin B1 derivative, on the development of cartilage lesions was investigated in an animal model of osteoarthritis (OA). METHODS: The OA model was created by partial medial meniscectomy of the right knee joint (day 0). The rabbits were placed into three experimental groups: operated (OA) rabbits that received placebo treatment, OA rabbits that received GH (1000 mg/kg) + CS (800 mg/kg), and OA rabbits that received GH + CS + fursultiamine (100 mg/kg). Each treatment was initiated on day 3 and continued for 8 weeks. Macroscopic and histologic analyses were performed on the cartilage. The level of MMP-1 in OA cartilage chondrocytes was evaluated by immunohistochemistry. RESULTS: Only the group receiving combined treatment with GH + CS + fursultiamine showed a significant reduction in the severity of macroscopic and histologic lesions on tibial plateau, which is the weight bearing cartilage surface of the tibia, compared with placebo-treated OA rabbits. This treatment group also revealed a small, but significant, decrease in the body weight gain of the rabbits. In cartilage from placebo-treated OA rabbits, a significantly higher percentage of chondrocytes in superficial layer stained positive for MMP-1 compared with unoperated control. Rabbits treated with the GH + CS + fursultiamine revealed a significant reduction in the level of MMP-1. CONCLUSION: These results suggest that the chondroprotective effect of GH + CS is enhanced by the addition of fursultiamine in experimental OA. This effect was associated with a reduction in the level of MMP-1, which are known to play an important role in the pathophysiology of OA lesions.

    PMID: 15973508 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




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    1: Kokyu To Junkan. 1991 Jan;39(1):89-94.Links
    [A case of beriberi heart--with special reference to the rapid effect of fursultiamine on hemodynamics]
    [Article in Japanese]

    Oimatsu H, Okada T, Sawai K, Satoh R, Mukai H, Kudoh C.

    Department of Cardiology, Kushiro City General Hospital.

    A 33-year-old man was admitted to Kushiro City General Hospital on February 27, 1989, because of palpitation, shortness of breath and anasarca. Eight months previously he had noted the onset of pretibial edema, which had progressed to anasarca. He had had a meal only once a day for nine months. Physical examination revealed a blood pressure of 114/46 mmHg and pulse rate of 80/min. The 3rd sound was audible. No rales in the chest and no hepatosplenomegaly were noted. Ascites, pretibial edema and anasarca were present. Vibration sensation was diminished, and the deep tendon reflexes were absent in the legs. The blood thiamine level on the 4th day of hospitalization decreased to 2.9 micrograms/dl. The red cell transketolase activity and TPP effect on the 10th hospital day were 0.76 IU/gHb and 11%, respectively. A chest roentogenogram showed pulmonary congestion and cardiomegaly (CTR 61.3%). The electrocardiogram showed non-specific T wave changes. On the echocardiogram, remarkable pericardial effusion and diffuse hypertrophy of the left ventricular wall were observed. In addition, the left ventricular wall motion showed a hyperkinetic state. On the basis of these findings, the diagnosis of beriberi heart was made. The hemodynamic study performed on the 10th hospital day showed a remarkable high cardiac output (CO) of 10.7 l/min and an extremely reduced total peripheral resistance (TPR) of 352 dynes.sec.cm-5. 15 min after intravenous administration of Fursultiamine 100 mg, CO decreased to 7.24 l/min and TPR increased to 848 dynes.sec.cm-5. Following the administration of Fursultiamine 75 mg, po/day, his symptoms and abnormal findings of clinical examination data rapidly improved.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

    PMID: 2024080 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]





    1: Eur J Clin Nutr. 1992 Mar;46(3):227-34.Links
    Beriberi cardiomyopathy.
    Djoenaidi W, Notermans SL, Dunda G.

    Department of Neurology, Airlangga University, Faculty of Medicine, Dr Soetomo Hospital, Surabaya, Indonesia.

    In Indonesia beriberi is still endemic, but subclinical cases are not uncommon. Three patients suffering from beriberi presented with different clinical manifestations. One had the classical features of Shoshin beriberi and the other two had the non-alcoholic cardiac beriberi (chronic type). The cardiac symptoms of all three patients responded dramatically to thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide; there was also some improvement of their polyneuropathy, consistent with the neurophysiologic findings and somatosensory evoked potentials (SSEPs). We conclude that SSEPs provide additional clinical information on beriberi polyneuropathy. The mortality of untreated cardiovascular beriberi is high. In view of the harmless nature of the treatment, a good case could be made for routine administration of thiamine to all patients in whom heart failure is present without clear evidence of the cause.

    PMID: 1313764 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  2. JJC
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    I try to avoid stims as much as possible, but when I use them pre-w/o I will try anything to get me to come down from the stimulation so that I can get to sleep.

    So far I'm rocking Theanine to battle stimulation and this seems like a great way to get the racing heartbeat to slow (not to mention the ATP production).

    If offered at a good (low) price, I'd be willing to try it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    I try to avoid stims as much as possible, but when I use them pre-w/o I will try anything to get me to come down from the stimulation so that I can get to sleep.
    I haven't tried it yet, but here's something PA said about Glycine use for a similar purpose. Nutra's got bulk Glycine as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    glycine is the simplest amino acid. it is an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brainstem and spinal cord, so it will calm your nerves down quickly after working out. this leads to enhanced nervous system recovery which is very important, probably even more important than muscle cell metabolic recovery. Especially if you use alot of pre-workout stims
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    Glycine would be good post w/o but it acts chiefly as an anxiolyctic so it is limited by its nature.

    Fursultiamine is a B vitamin (read:increased energy while reducing heart damage) with a novel MOA that works in an entirely different matter than an anxiolyctic such as glycine.
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    Looks like glycine looks more suitable for me and my intentions. Thanks for the suggestion.

    Best of luck with the campaign.
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    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-100-caps.html
    similar thiamine analogue, not as good, but pretty good from my experience (also it is one of the xforce ingredients)

    I have yet to try fursultiamine, so I am not sure which is more effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpen22 View Post
    I haven't tried it yet, but here's something PA said about Glycine use for a similar purpose. Nutra's got bulk Glycine as well.
    Do you have the full article where PA talks about glycine? I'd be very interested.
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    I would buy fursultiamine in a SECOND!
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    I wonder how this compares to the http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-100-caps.html I picked up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    I wonder how this compares to the http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-100-caps.html I picked up.
    Sulb is very good, but if Colin says Fursul is better, then I REALLY wanna try it! :bb3:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    Glycine would be good post w/o but it acts chiefly as an anxiolyctic so it is limited by its nature.

    Fursultiamine is a B vitamin (read:increased energy while reducing heart damage) with a novel MOA that works in an entirely different matter than an anxiolyctic such as glycine.
    When you say reducing heart damage, what exactly are you referring to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag View Post
    Do you have the full article where PA talks about glycine? I'd be very interested.
    It actually wasn't from an article. It was just a post on BB.com.
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    whats the dosing on this

    yes id buy it

    subl. made me sick as a dog
    toes-on-the-nose.blogspot.com Deployed blogging
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside Backer View Post
    whats the dosing on this

    yes id buy it

    subl. made me sick as a dog

    Did you use spike by biotest or regular subultiamine...
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    I'd definitely be in with the joint issues I have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside Backer View Post
    whats the dosing on this

    yes id buy it

    subl. made me sick as a dog
    Which brand of sul. made you sick?

    I tried C.N. caps and loved it but the N.P. brand, although good, wasn't as good as the former, even at a higher dose.
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    fursultiamine i would buy some.
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    I'd buy some for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrchristian View Post
    When you say reducing heart damage, what exactly are you referring to?
    I suggest reading the abstracts I posted above,this has been addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    I wonder how this compares to the http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...-100-caps.html I picked up.
    I am not sure,other B vitamin analogues seem to be helpful with heart health as well.I've gathered nearly two dozen abstracts on B vitamin analogues and the heart,I'll sift through them as time allows to find the cream of the crop.

    One thing that concerns me about sulbutiamine,in spite of the positive effect it may have on the heart,are (possible) long term detrimental effects to the mind.I came across this post inadvertently while looking for something else which was unrelated,I have yet to look into wether fursultiamine is a KAR agonist as well.

    [quote name='Loki' date='Feb 13 2006, 10:30 PM' post='306058']
    even if desensitization weren't an issue, there exists a legitimate possibility that consistent heavy-frequency use of sulbutiamine would be excitotoxic to neurons. Somewhat speculative, yes, but the fact that it acts as a kainate receptor agonist and influences the kainate system, without really knowing the full extent and degree of specificity (which, when overworked, causes an elevation in neurotoxic activity) is mild cause for concern.

    Just something to keep in mind.
    [/quote]

    From this thread:
    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/i...howtopic=21926

    Here are a few relevant abstracts I have on hand.Thiamine supplementation by itself may be all all that's needed.I need to spend more time on Pubmed to clarify just why PA selected fursultiamine instead of thiamine or sulbutiamine etc. and if his reasoning makes for more than having fursultiamine in there as a novel/exclusive ingredient to AMP V.2.This would seem to be the case as thiamine itself (or sulbutiamine/pretty much any other thiamine analogue)increases heart health.But given the first abstract below,I think his reasoning for including fursuiltiamine instead of thiamine/sulbutiamine was sound.


    Kokyu To Junkan. 1991 Jan;39(1):89-94.Links
    [A case of beriberi heart--with special reference to the rapid effect of fursultiamine on hemodynamics]
    [Article in Japanese]

    Oimatsu H, Okada T, Sawai K, Satoh R, Mukai H, Kudoh C.

    Department of Cardiology, Kushiro City General Hospital.

    A 33-year-old man was admitted to Kushiro City General Hospital on February 27, 1989, because of palpitation, shortness of breath and anasarca. Eight months previously he had noted the onset of pretibial edema, which had progressed to anasarca. He had had a meal only once a day for nine months. Physical examination revealed a blood pressure of 114/46 mmHg and pulse rate of 80/min. The 3rd sound was audible. No rales in the chest and no hepatosplenomegaly were noted. Ascites, pretibial edema and anasarca were present. Vibration sensation was diminished, and the deep tendon reflexes were absent in the legs. The blood thiamine level on the 4th day of hospitalization decreased to 2.9 micrograms/dl. The red cell transketolase activity and TPP effect on the 10th hospital day were 0.76 IU/gHb and 11%, respectively. A chest roentogenogram showed pulmonary congestion and cardiomegaly (CTR 61.3%). The electrocardiogram showed non-specific T wave changes. On the echocardiogram, remarkable pericardial effusion and diffuse hypertrophy of the left ventricular wall were observed. In addition, the left ventricular wall motion showed a hyperkinetic state. On the basis of these findings, the diagnosis of beriberi heart was made. The hemodynamic study performed on the 10th hospital day showed a remarkable high cardiac output (CO) of 10.7 l/min and an extremely reduced total peripheral resistance (TPR) of 352 dynes.sec.cm-5. 15 min after intravenous administration of Fursultiamine 100 mg, CO decreased to 7.24 l/min and TPR increased to 848 dynes.sec.cm-5. Following the administration of Fursultiamine 75 mg, po/day, his symptoms and abnormal findings of clinical examination data rapidly improved.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

    PMID: 2024080


    Eur J Clin Nutr. 1992 Mar;46(3):227-34.Links
    Beriberi cardiomyopathy.
    Djoenaidi W, Notermans SL, Dunda G.

    Department of Neurology, Airlangga University, Faculty of Medicine, Dr Soetomo Hospital, Surabaya, Indonesia.

    In Indonesia beriberi is still endemic, but subclinical cases are not uncommon. Three patients suffering from beriberi presented with different clinical manifestations. One had the classical features of Shoshin beriberi and the other two had the non-alcoholic cardiac beriberi (chronic type). The cardiac symptoms of all three patients responded dramatically to thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide; there was also some improvement of their polyneuropathy, consistent with the neurophysiologic findings and somatosensory evoked potentials (SSEPs). We conclude that SSEPs provide additional clinical information on beriberi polyneuropathy. The mortality of untreated cardiovascular beriberi is high. In view of the harmless nature of the treatment, a good case could be made for routine administration of thiamine to all patients in whom heart failure is present without clear evidence of the cause.

    PMID: 1313764

    Nutr Rev. 2000 Oct;58(10):319-23.Links

    Comment in:
    Nutr Rev. 2001 Oct;59(10):342-4.

    Diuretics and vitamin B1: are diuretics a risk factor for thiamin malnutrition?
    Suter PM, Vetter W.

    Medical Policlinic, University Hospital, Zürich, Switzerland.

    Despite modern pharmacologic agents in the therapy of heart failure, the prevalence of heart failure is increasing worldwide. In the vitamin B1 deficiency disease beriberi, cardiac symptoms may represent the central feature. Two new studies confirmed that all diuretics lead to increased urinary thiamin excretion depending on the urinary flow rate. In a subject at risk, such as an elderly patient, chronic diuretic treatment may lead to a subclinical thiamin deficiency. Whether subclinical thiamin nutriture is a modulator of the prevalence and/or severity of heart failure is not known; however, it seems to be plausible from the metabolic point of view.

    PMID: 11127971

    Am Heart J. 1996 Jun;131(6):1248-50.Links
    Is there a role for thiamine supplementation in the management of heart failure?
    Leslie D, Gheorghiade M.

    PMID: 8644620
    Full text will be posted shortly.


    ongest Heart Fail. 2007 Jul-Aug;13(4):244-7.Click here to read Links
    Loop diuretic therapy, thiamine balance, and heart failure.
    Sica DA.

    Section of Clinical Pharmacology and Hypertension, Division of Nephrology, Medical College of Virginia of Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, VA 23298-0160, USA. dsica@mcvh-vcu.edu

    Thiamine, or vitamin B1, is a water-soluble B complex vitamin that was first discovered in 1910 in the process of exploring how rice bran cured patients of beriberi. Thiamine is not synthesized in humans, therefore its availability for necessary cellular processes hinges on its continual ingestion. The amount of thiamine one needs to ingest to maintain balance is disease state-dependent or medication-dependent. Severe chronic thiamine deficiency can have significant neurologic and cardiac effects, the latter is reflected in a particular type of heart failure called wet beriberi. This form of heart failure clearly benefits from thiamine supplementation. It is unclear, however, whether thiamine supplementation offers any benefit in other forms of heart failure. Despite this, it is not unreasonable for heart failure patients to routinely ingest a thiamine-containing multivitamin; patients using diuretics have an increased urinary excretion of thiamine and thus are at a higher risk for developing thiamine deficiency. The role of thiamine in heart failure, however, remains arguable.

    PMID: 17673878


    : Ann Cardiol Angeiol (Paris). 2001 Apr;50(3):160-8.Links
    [Is thiamine supplementation necessary in patient with cardiac insufficiency?]
    [Article in French]

    Blanc P, Boussuges A.

    Service de réanimation polyvalente, service de cardiologie, CHD Félix Guyon, 97405 Saint-Denis, La Réunion, France. ph-blanc@chd-fguyon.fr

    Interest has recently risen regarding thiamine deficiency in patients with cardiac deficiency who are receiving long-term diuretic therapy. Thiamine deficiency can lead biventricular myocardial failure (cardiac beriberi), and treatment consists of thiamine administration. Studies have shown that long-term furosemide use may be associated with thiamine deficiency through urinary loss, contributing to cardiac insufficiency in patients with congestive heart failure. Thiamine supplementation could improved left ventricular function. However, the results of those studies are controversial, and none study have till proved the clinical impact of a systematic administration of thiamine in a cohort of patients with cardiac insufficiency. To date, and waiting for available literature, thiamine administration should be consider in patients at risk for thiamine deficiency (elderly, malnourished, alcoholic), and in patients receiving very large doses of diuretics.

    PMID: 12555508


    J Neurol Sci. 2006 Nov 15;249(2):175-9. Epub 2006 Aug 22.Click here to read Links
    Myopathy in thiamine deficiency: analysis of a case.
    Koike H, Watanabe H, Inukai A, Iijima M, Mori K, Hattori N, Sobue G.

    Department of Neurology, Nagoya University Graduate School of Medicine, Nagoya 466-8550, Japan.

    BACKGROUND: Tenderness in the limb muscles has been reported anecdotally in patients with beriberi neuropathy, but clinical effects of thiamine deficiency on skeletal muscle have received little attention. OBJECTIVE: To describe a patient with thiamine deficiency who manifested myopathic symptoms and responded well to thiamine supplementation. PATIENT: A 26-year-old woman with neuropathy and heart failure associated with thiamine deficiency also complained of myalgia and weakness, most troublesome in the proximal portions of the limbs. RESULTS: Serum creatine kinase, myoglobin, and aldolase concentrations were abnormally elevated. Magnetic resonance imaging of lower limb muscles demonstrated areas of high signal intensity in T2-weighted images and showed Gd-DTPA enhancement. A biopsy specimen from the quadriceps muscle showed myopathic changes without neurogenic changes. Abnormalities improved well with thiamine administration. CONCLUSION: Myopathy may occur in patients with thiamine deficiency.

    PMID: 16920153


    : Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1997;75(6):520-4.Links
    The effect of a thiamin derivative on exercise performance.
    Webster MJ, Scheett TP, Doyle MR, Branz M.

    Department of Physical Education, Western Illinois University, Macomb 61455, USA.

    The purpose of this study was to investigate the effect of a thiamin derivative, thiamin tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide (TTFD), on oxygen uptake (VO2), lactate accumulation and cycling performance during exercise to exhaustion. Using a randomized, double-blind, cross-over design with a 10-day washout between trials, 14 subjects ingested either 1 g.day-1 of TTFD or a placebo (PL) for 4 days. On day 3, subjects performed a progressive exercise-test to exhaustion on a cycle ergometer for the determination of VO2submax, VO2peak, lactate concentration ([La-]), lactate threshold (ThLa) and heart rate (fc). On day 4, subjects performed a maximal 2000-m time trial on a cycle ergometer. A one-way analysis of variance (ANOVA) with repeated measures was used to determine significant differences between trials. There were no significant differences detected between trials for serial measures of VO2submax, [La-] or fc. Likewise, VO2peak [PL 4.06 (0.19) TTFD 4.12 (0.19) l.min-1, P = 0.83], ThLa [PL 2.47 (0.17), TTFD 2.43 (0.16) l.min-1, P = 0.86] and 2000-m performance time [PL 204.5 (5.5), TTFD 200.9 (4.3).s, P = 0.61] were not significantly different between trials. The results of this study suggest that thiamin derivative supplementation does not influence high-intensity exercise performance.

    PMID: 9202948


    1: Am J Med. 1980 Sep;69(3):383-6.Links
    Reappearance of beriberi heart disease in Japan. A study of 23 cases.
    Kawai C, Wakabayashi A, Matsumura T, Yui Y.

    Twenty-three Japanese patients with beriberi heart disease, 17 of them teenagers, were studied. The recent tendency for teenagers to take excessive sweet carbonated soft drinks, instant noodles and powermill-polished rice readily induces relative thiamine deficiency. A sudden increase in thiamine requirements due to strenuous exercise can result in overt beriberi heart disease. Alcohol had nothing to do with the development of the disease. Characteristic features commonly seen in teenage patients include peripheral edema, low peripheral vascular resistance, increased venous pressure enlarged heart, T wave abnormalities, hyperkinetic circulatory state and increased circulating blood volume. Thiamine deficiency was confirmed by a decrease in blood thiamine concentration, a decrease in erythrocyte transketolase activity and an increase in thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP) effect. Improvement was rapidly achieved with thiamine administration, balanced nutrition and rest, especially in the teenage patients. Increased circulating blood volume was useful in differentiating beriberi heart disease from hyperthyroidism.

    PMID: 7416185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post

    One thing that concerns me about sulbutiamine,in spite of the positive effect it may have on the heart,are (possible) long term detrimental effects to the mind.I came across this post inadvertently while looking for something else which was unrelated,I have yet to look into wether fursultiamine is a KAR agonist as well.

    [quote name='Loki' date='Feb 13 2006, 10:30 PM' post='306058']
    even if desensitization weren't an issue, there exists a legitimate possibility that consistent heavy-frequency use of sulbutiamine would be excitotoxic to neurons. Somewhat speculative, yes, but the fact that it acts as a kainate receptor agonist and influences the kainate system, without really knowing the full extent and degree of specificity (which, when overworked, causes an elevation in neurotoxic activity) is mild cause for concern.

    Just something to keep in mind.
    Colin, I use 900-1200mg of Sulbutiamine 3-4 and occassionally 5 days a week.

    Could you tell me what the above statement means please? It's waaay over my head.

    Thanks.
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    Excitotoxins are chemicals that stimulate the neurons in the brain to excessive firing, and can possibly cause brain damage.
    an examples of excitotoxins are aspertame and msg.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag View Post
    Colin, I use 900-1200mg of Sulbutiamine 3-4 and occassionally 5 days a week.

    Could you tell me what the above statement means please? It's waaay over my head.

    Thanks.
    To (over)simplify, many of them are case studies showing that fursultiamine, or another B1 analog were effective at reversing heart problems, or how administration of it cleared symptoms caused by a deficiency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    To (over)simplify, many of them are case studies showing that fursultiamine, or another B1 analog were effective at reversing heart problems, or how administration of it cleared symptoms caused by a deficiency.

    Yes,but the abstract below paints fursultiamine as preferable but I suppose similiar results could have been seen with a different B vitamin analogue/thiamine.

    This person is not elderly and was only eating one meal per day most likely.This was likely a hefty caloric deficit for an extended period of time.So this has a bit of crossover reference to dieting athletes.

    So if you diet and train intensively and/or take in stimulants on a regular basis,I think it would be wise to at least have fursultiamine on hand,I'm not sure about using it regularly though.

    Bottom line being that anyone who takes stimulants should take in a multivitamin with extra B vitamins,make sure there is a high thiamine content)I have to do more research on thiamine analogues to really come to a conclusion on them.

    FWIW,I recently gave my mother a bottle of NP's bulk sulbutiamine to help her with energy levels as she drinks too much coffee.A couple months before this I gave her a few of CN's sulbutiamine caps and she loged the effects,clear energy without sleep disturbance,unlike coffeee/caffiene.So I'm not overly concerned with her using sulbutiamine for a couple months but I'm definitely going to research it thoroughly before I suggest that she buy more once she gets through the 30 grams I gave her.


    Kokyu To Junkan. 1991 Jan;39(1):89-94.Links
    [A case of beriberi heart--with special reference to the rapid effect of fursultiamine on hemodynamics]
    [Article in Japanese]

    Oimatsu H, Okada T, Sawai K, Satoh R, Mukai H, Kudoh C.

    Department of Cardiology, Kushiro City General Hospital.

    A 33-year-old man was admitted to Kushiro City General Hospital on February 27, 1989, because of palpitation, shortness of breath and anasarca. Eight months previously he had noted the onset of pretibial edema, which had progressed to anasarca. He had had a meal only once a day for nine months. Physical examination revealed a blood pressure of 114/46 mmHg and pulse rate of 80/min. The 3rd sound was audible. No rales in the chest and no hepatosplenomegaly were noted. Ascites, pretibial edema and anasarca were present. Vibration sensation was diminished, and the deep tendon reflexes were absent in the legs. The blood thiamine level on the 4th day of hospitalization decreased to 2.9 micrograms/dl. The red cell transketolase activity and TPP effect on the 10th hospital day were 0.76 IU/gHb and 11%, respectively. A chest roentogenogram showed pulmonary congestion and cardiomegaly (CTR 61.3%). The electrocardiogram showed non-specific T wave changes. On the echocardiogram, remarkable pericardial effusion and diffuse hypertrophy of the left ventricular wall were observed. In addition, the left ventricular wall motion showed a hyperkinetic state. On the basis of these findings, the diagnosis of beriberi heart was made. The hemodynamic study performed on the 10th hospital day showed a remarkable high cardiac output (CO) of 10.7 l/min and an extremely reduced total peripheral resistance (TPR) of 352 dynes.sec.cm-5. 15 min after intravenous administration of Fursultiamine 100 mg, CO decreased to 7.24 l/min and TPR increased to 848 dynes.sec.cm-5. Following the administration of Fursultiamine 75 mg, po/day, his symptoms and abnormal findings of clinical examination data rapidly improved.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

    PMID: 2024080
  24. Jag
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    Colin, what dose did your mother have?

    I use Adam, a multi from NOW Foods. I might just add a 300mg cap of Sulbutiamine to that as i am dieting and using stims atm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jag View Post
    Colin, what dose did your mother have?

    I use Adam, a multi from NOW Foods. I might just add a 300mg cap of Sulbutiamine to that as i am dieting and using stims atm.
    I gave her some empty 00 gelcaps and told her to fill them up a bit under half way so she's using around 300-400mg 1-2 times a day.

    As long as your multi has more than 100% RDA for thiamine the sulbutiamine may be redundant.You could head over to Pubmed.com and research this yourself with sulbtiamine beriberi heart, fursultiamine beriberi heart and/or thiamine beriberi heart as the search terms.

    I don't see myself having the time to do this research intil I absolutely have to e.g. when my mom runs out of her current sulbutiamine supply.

    I'm content with thiamine supplementation through my multi,a Centrum Performance generic knockoff,at least for now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Did you use spike by biotest or regular subultiamine...

    it was spkie

    it was the worst exp of my life cold shivers 103 fever ugh
    toes-on-the-nose.blogspot.com Deployed blogging
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside Backer View Post
    it was spkie

    it was the worst exp of my life cold shivers 103 fever ugh
    I picked up some Spike tabs on clearance a while back and liked them,no fever like symptoms etc.

    I just looked into fursultiamine and the same potential issue (neurotoxicity) is applicable to it.I came across a positive abstract for thiamine supplementation though,while another abstact (which I posted above) showed no signifigantly positive effects WRT sulbutiamine.I'm not all that convinced fursultiamine is worth sourcing either.

    Thiamine's bioavailability is much less than its analogues so a decent dose should be all that's needed.If you wind up in an ER though,I'd ask for some fursultiamine.

    I use more stims than I should,in conjunction with bezafibrate (which are primarily oxidized in the heart) if I overeat and DNP while dieting.I am satisfied with a heart protective stack of COq10,hawthorn berry and fish oil along with thiamine.I do like AMPV.2 (with fursultiamine) but no longer think that fursultiamine is a staple for tweakers.But it woul;dn;t hurt to have some on hand in case of an intense heart pain flareup.



    : Metab Brain Dis. 1996 Mar;11(1):95-106.Links
    Effects of thiamine supplementation on exercise-induced fatigue.
    Suzuki M, Itokawa Y.

    Institute of Health & Sports Sciences, University of Tsukuba, Japan.

    High-dose thiamine (vitamin B1) supplementation (100 mg/day) may be helpful in preventing or accelerating recovery from exercise-induced fatigue. Sixteen volunteer male athletes volunteer, 8 with a blood thiamine level of 40 ng/ml or more (normal thiamine group) and 8 with levels below that level (low thiamine group) were selected as subjects. They exercised on a bicycle ergometer and the effects of thiamine supplementation were compared with placebo. Blood thiamine level markedly increased following supplementation of thiamine for 3 days before exercise. Exercise-induced changes in hemodynamic parameters and cardiopulmonary function indicated the onset of fatigue. Thiamine supplementation significantly suppressed the increase in blood glucose in the normal thiamine group and significantly decreased the number of complaints shortly after exercise in the subjective fatigue assessment of 30 items.

    PMID: 8815395
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    I got these from the Inncer Circle's full text request thread over on M&M:

    Is_there_a_role_for_thiamine_s upplementation_in_the_manageme nt_of_heart_failure__.pdf

    Board Message



    Do_diuretics_cause_thiamine_de ficiency___.pdf

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    Neither study comes to much of a conclusion though so if you are a heavy stim user with extra money and suspect or know that you have a history of family heart trouble,fursultiamine would be a good play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    I got these from the Inncer Circle's full text request thread over on M&M:

    Is_there_a_role_for_thiamine_s upplementation_in_the_manageme nt_of_heart_failure__.pdf

    Board Message



    Do_diuretics_cause_thiamine_de ficiency___.pdf

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    Neither study comes to much of a conclusion though so if you are a heavy stim user with extra money and suspect or know that you have a history of family heart trouble,fursultiamine would be a good play.
    That's me and thanks for the bottom line, Colin.

    ATM i have a bag of NP's Sulbutiamine caps i must use up first so by then there may be some headway on a pure fursultiamine supp.
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    I would buy fursultiamine if NutraPlanet sold it. Here is a problem with sulbutiamine (Replace characters // and . cause I don't exactly have 50 posts yet and can't post links):

    http:??www?ergo-log.com/sulbutiamineboldenone.html
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    I'm going to go ahead and bump this, even though it's old. SAN Launch ingredients:





    Maybe Nutra can pick it up?
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    I passed on a reminder for you poison. Sorry I never replied to your PM bud.
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    Ill buy it for damn sure!
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    Thanks, man, much appreciated!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steveoph View Post
    I passed on a reminder for you poison. Sorry I never replied to your PM bud.
    Why NP no Launch?
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Why NP no Launch?
    yes, THIS!!!...Wut.da.Hellz NP?!?!
    ~SNS~ Serious Nutrition Solutions- Rep
    Cortisol control:ReduceXT/Test Boost:DAA (bulk&caps)/Pump/N.O.:Agmatine(bulk & caps)/Test/sleep support:ZMA **RB** Est Post #22
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    Seriously, schizm. It's nuts that they don't carry Launch 4350/Launch, Green Supreme Fusion, Cultivate, Intra Fuel, CM2, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    I'm going to go ahead and bump this, even though it's old. SAN Launch ingredients:Maybe Nutra can pick it up?
    DAMN!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Seriously, schizm. It's nuts that they don't carry Launch 4350/Launch, Green Supreme Fusion, Cultivate, Intra Fuel, CM2, etc.
    NP!! SUPPLY OUR DEMAND!! SUPPLY OUR DEMAND!!!
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