Liquid Beef aminos

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    any scientific data you'd like to present I'd love to read and be proven wrong. I'm not gonna get in a contest of ego's with you considering it's pointless. We're talking about a product with no scientic reason it seems to be so great. Your right, let the hard evidence speak for itself. Not word of mouth "brologic". Just because you or I win contests doesn't mean you or I know our ass from our elbow about supplements. That's why pro's PAY people to tell them what to take and when to take it.

    This product is a lose spin off of a common supplement with a jacked up price and no data to back up it's claims.

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    what a joke of a rep.

    Would I expect PA to be a credible source for ALRI products? No. Unless he did studies on them.

    IN this case there are no studies. You are a poor source of info because all your basing your allegence off of is word of mouth.

    Being in the supplement industry yourself you should know better than most that this is ridiculous to promote a supplement on.

    Talk about fight or flight! I should "crawl back in my hole" because you don't like what I'm saying?

    Sorry if free will and open minded thinking seem to be your enemy here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    any scientific data you'd like to present I'd love to read and be proven wrong. I'm not gonna get in a contest of ego's with you considering it's pointless. We're talking about a product with no scientic reason it seems to be so great. Your right, let the hard evidence speak for itself. Not word of mouth "brologic". Just because you or I win contests doesn't mean you or I know our ass from our elbow about supplements. That's why pro's PAY people to tell them what to take and when to take it.

    This product is a lose spin off of a common supplement with a jacked up price and no data to back up it's claims.
    Now you are sounding more reasonable...I will buy this for the first time, and if nothing positive happens, I will be the first to say it on this board and others, period. And as far as bodybuilders and contest prep, a good majority of them do know what to do, but need an outsider's perspective, if you will, to properly assess where they need to be. Hell, half the bodybuilders I know who recieve contest prep, including myself, also give it to clients of their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    what a joke of a rep.

    Would I expect PA to be a credible source for ALRI products? No. Unless he did studies on them.

    IN this case there are no studies. You are a poor source of info because all your basing your allegence off of is word of mouth.

    Being in the supplement industry yourself you should know better than most that this is ridiculous to promote a supplement on.

    Talk about fight or flight! I should "crawl back in my hole" because you don't like what I'm saying?

    Sorry if free will and open minded thinking seem to be your enemy here.

    Here is my point...does it hurt you if Sam carries this for myself and others to gather our own opinion on use? I'm 99.99% sure it does not, so why do you need to stop him from carrying something? I am going off reviews from people I personally know away from the boards man. Again, if it does not show any improvement, even in not in proportion to price, I will be the FIRST to state that...And asking someone to carry a product is NOT promoting it...
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    your right about that. Although having designed my programs for myself and the fact that most base progress off numbers (cals,bf%, etc..) I don't see the need to higher outside help when people are paying you for the exact same thing.... If your good enough for some one else to PAY for your advice, why can't you take your own for free?

    You know what I mean, and sorry to high jack the thread with that. I'm not trying to be a jerk by saying that either.

    I just honestly don't understand the logic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    your right about that. Although having designed my programs for myself and the fact that most base progress off numbers (cals,bf%, etc..) I don't see the need to higher outside help when people are paying you for the exact same thing.... If your good enough for some one else to PAY for your advice, why can't you take your own for free?

    You know what I mean, and sorry to high jack the thread with that. I'm not trying to be a jerk by saying that either.

    I just honestly don't understand the logic.

    No worries, group hug
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    the reason I considered your evaluation of it to be promoting is because it was all positive and nothing negative. Plus, coming from a supplement rep - it's what you do. Promote supplements. SO of coarse that's what I'm going to think.

    No one stated anything neg. or even asked real questions about the logic of spending so much money on a simple amino acid supplement.

    I have seen the reviews as well, but I've also seen the arguments stem from it. And the supporters of this supplement more than any other I've ever seen have a tendency of being VERY protective and quick to jump someone for questioning it. Suspiciously protective. Instead of in contrast calming answering and providing studies and logs etc...
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    Well I hate to jump into the frying pan. But I am on my 4th bottle of LBA's. I bought 6 bottles to just see what all this excitement was about at promuscle. I am taking 6 tablespoons a day. I have to say I do not notice any difference in this product verses eaa's/bcaa's. The "awesome" pump guys are getting must be due to the 5 grams of glycerol per tablespoon. Unless they are spiking this with something illegal an amino acid is an amino acid. I will not be buying any more of it. I will go back to eaa's and bcaa's. Of course someone will say but you weren't drinking a half a bottle a day. But for me it is not cost effective. Just my 2 cents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    example

    Example?? What is that supposed to mean? In hindsight, it does look like I'm jumping on here to promote this product. But I've been a long time lurker here and I mainly post on other forums where I have never even mentioned this product. I've done logs for various supplements and give a completely unbiased review of them. I like to try different things and I have NEVER USED this product. I repeat, THIS PRODUCT MAY BE *COMPLETELY USELESS*, BUT I WANT TO TRY IT.

    I said I haven't used them (although I just ordered some from elsewhere) so I can't say whether they are good or not. What is wrong with requesting a product so they can be tried? I mean, do you really think every single product sold here works well enough to justify the price?

    I consider myself to be a very logical and reasonable person, so I'll give my perspective and I would love to hear an arguement against it. If nutraplanet carries the product, then people can try it and give an unbiased opinon. That way we can separate the hype from reality. If they work, then people here will say they work. If they don't, then we will know better. Then when anyone posts about trying LBA on various forums, they can search the net and find two places were there is a lot of feedback. One is a forum where everyone says they work great but they are sheeps to a man selling them, and the other is an unbiased forum where people say they don't work. Then they can make an honest evaluation. Or if they really do work, then they can see that even on forums where there is no incentive to promote the product, people are still saying they are getting good results.

    But without getting the product in stock to try, how is anyone going to know whether it really is bunk or not?

    A perfectly reasonable person would realize that there is nothing wrong with asking a company to simply carry a product to try. If you don't want to use it, fine. Yet you should be happy people are getting a chance to try it so if they say it doesn't work, you can laugh at them an say I told you so. That is what I would do at least... And then we all learn that LBA aren't what they are cracked up to be. And if they do work as well as some say, then we have a great new product. Win win if you ask me.
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    Found this elsewhere.

    Immunity and Resistance Training
    The Role of Bioactive Proteins derived from Spray Dried Bovine Plasma (SDBP)
    Billy Carpenter, MS, RD

    One of the most misunderstood and often ignored components of a successful weight-training program is the maintenance of a healthy immune system. The immune system is a complex cellular response organization composed of an intricate, multifaceted order of barriers (skin), bodily fluids, mucous membranes, and hormones. This complicated system allows the body to basically differentiate “self” from “non-self.

    The most notable and important of the immune system barriers is the 400 square feet of the gastrointestinal tract (GI tract) which contains as much as two pounds of normal bacteria and more than 70 percent of the body’s immune cells. Our body acts to defend itself from the foreign matter (bacteria, viruses and other environmental toxins also referred to as immunogens or antigens) that enter our body by releasing classes of compounds called antibodies. “Antibodies” is a collective term for specific immune proteins called immunoglobulins. The immunoglobulins located in the GI tract (IgA) act as the primary defense mechanism against toxic invasion by attaching immunoglobulins located there to invading antigens, thus neutralizing the pathogenic materials before they can exert their site-specific activity in the body.

    It is very important for fitness minded individuals to understand that the immune system is naturally suppressed by bouts of regular intense exercise. However, aging, illness, travel, pharmaceutical interventions (including anabolic agents), inadequate nutritional intake (especially protein), dieting, and other lifestyle stressors as well as individual genetic predispositions can also have profound effects upon immunocompetence. During these periods of abnormal stress the body releases increased amounts inflammatory cytokines (IL-1, IL-6, and TNF-a) which breakdown muscle tissue to help fuel the increased energy demands that drive the immune process. Adding insult to injury, the GI tract actually releases decreased amounts of immunoglobulins, as they are diverted to other areas of the body.

    One of the most common complications which many bodybuilders unknowingly suffer from is perturbation of normal GI tract function. When GI tract function is compromised, an increased permeability to pathogens is noted allowing foreign materials to more easily pass into the body. This substantially increases the risk of infection. For athletes, this can not only lead to reduced adaptive responses (muscle anabolism) to training, but can also make the body more susceptible to fatigue, illness, and ultimately catabolism of preexisting lean body mass stores. Coupled with this is the fact that when the GI tract is weakened, ingested macronutrients are not as readily absorbed and assimilated into the body. This is especially true for dietary and supplementary protein.

    One of the most common complications experienced in individuals who engage in regular high-intensity is an increase likelihood of developing upper respiratory tract infections. Studies in the scientific literature have demonstrated that once this process initiates, any continuation of physical exertion may actually worsen the disease state - thereby compounding the problem and leading to the possibility of even more severe illnesses. A recent study involving military personnel engaged in three weeks of combat training demonstrated that strenuous and prolonged exercise significantly decreased the amount of the hormones (DHEA, prolactin, testosterone) and immunoglobulins, while at the same time increased the catabolic cytokine interleukin-6. This clearly reflects the interrelationship between immune system function and anabolic hormone synthesis.

    Various dietary supplements have been investigated and used by athletes to help bolster immune function such as vitamin C, vitamin E, zinc, glutamine, and Echinacea. While all of these compounds do have essential value in maintaining overall health and nutritional status, none have been shown to offer consistent benefits in improving overall immune system function. Glutamine has been studied extensively in this regard since it has been determined to be a vital amino acid used to support some of the cells of the immune system. However, even though plasma levels of glutamine have been shown to decrease after bouts of exercise, intracellular concentrations more or less remain stable. Furthermore, even in glutamine feeding studies, supplementation with this amino acid has not been shown to offset exercise-induced immune suppression.

    Spray dried bovine serum plasma (SDBP) is a new product to the nutritional supplement industry. A by-product of the cattle industry, it contains greater than 85% protein. However, unlike regular ingested dietary protein which is broken down into its constituent amino acids for use in the body, emerging research has shown that a significant amount (15-25%) of the proteins found in (SDBP) resist the digestive process. These proteins are actually transported intact to the lower G.I. (intestines) where they exert vital specific activities. Collectively these are named “bioactive proteins”.

    The bioactive protein composition of SDBP is greater than 50 percent immunoglobulins (IgA, IgG and IgM). Additionally, SDBP contains significant amounts of the anabolic growth factor IGF-1 and the immunoregulatory cytokine TNF-ß. Interestingly, SDBP is very similar in composition to bovine colostrum, the milk-like substance produced in the first 36 – 72 hours after calving. In fact, you could consider serum plasma protein to be the precursor to colostrum. The big difference though is SDBP contains much higher concentrations and a more consistent composition of the vital bioactive proteins then those found in colostrum products. And, since it is a non-dairy product, SDBP is free of lactose.

    Of the immunoglobulin proteins found in SDBP, greater than forty-five percent is IgG. IgG is the most abundant immunoglobulin found in plasma and works to defend against pathogens in the body. IgG also is shuttled from the blood to the intestinal mucosal surface where it supports the functions of IgA in immune response and gut integrity. Supplemental intake of IgG has been shown to increase the transport of dietary amino acids leading to increases in lean body mass. Additionally, by improving appetite and decreasing protein catabolism, supplemental IgG improves the growth rate of immunocompromised animals. Finally, the anabolic growth factor IGF-1 and the cytokine TNF-ß found in SDBP act to not only help reduce the immune response to strenuous activity, but also aid in the transport of amino acids into muscle cells aiding in the restructuring the architecture of muscle cells post-exercise.

    Obviously, the addition of bioactive proteins derived from SDBP to ones diet makes logical sense for decreasing the adverse physiological reactions brought about by stress and strenuous physical activity. But that is not all - SDBP can also aid in the efficient use of ingested macronutrient (especially protein) to drive the anabolic process of building new muscle mass. XXXXX is the first commercially available whey protein supplement to contain physiological efficacious doses of SDBP in conjunction with a high quality protein isolate. This combination will not only increase the nutritional efficiency of the product itself, but will also help optimize the absorption of all ingested macronutrients.

    In summary, the addition of SDBP and its’ constituent bioactive proteins to ones diet and exercise program have been shown to exert several different and important biological effects upon oral ingestion including:

    1) Increasing the ability to fight infection and decreasing the inflammatory response of pathogenic infection

    2) Increasing the ability to resist the immunosuppressive and catabolic effects of overtraining and other environmental stressors

    3) Increasing alimentary levels of IGF-1 and TGF-beta1 thus aiding in intestinal integrity and intestinal absorptive ability of nutrients – especially protein

    4) Increasing appetite as well as the efficiency of ingested protein towards lean body mass accretion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derock View Post
    Example?? What is that supposed to mean? In hindsight, it does look like I'm jumping on here to promote this product. But I've been a long time lurker here and I mainly post on other forums where I have never even mentioned this product. I've done logs for various supplements and give a completely unbiased review of them. I like to try different things and I have NEVER USED this product. I repeat, THIS PRODUCT MAY BE *COMPLETELY USELESS*, BUT I WANT TO TRY IT.

    I said I haven't used them (although I just ordered some from elsewhere) so I can't say whether they are good or not. What is wrong with requesting a product so they can be tried? I mean, do you really think every single product sold here works well enough to justify the price?

    I consider myself to be a very logical and reasonable person, so I'll give my perspective and I would love to hear an arguement against it. If nutraplanet carries the product, then people can try it and give an unbiased opinon. That way we can separate the hype from reality. If they work, then people here will say they work. If they don't, then we will know better. Then when anyone posts about trying LBA on various forums, they can search the net and find two places were there is a lot of feedback. One is a forum where everyone says they work great but they are sheeps to a man selling them, and the other is an unbiased forum where people say they don't work. Then they can make an honest evaluation. Or if they really do work, then they can see that even on forums where there is no incentive to promote the product, people are still saying they are getting good results.

    But without getting the product in stock to try, how is anyone going to know whether it really is bunk or not?

    A perfectly reasonable person would realize that there is nothing wrong with asking a company to simply carry a product to try. If you don't want to use it, fine. Yet you should be happy people are getting a chance to try it so if they say it doesn't work, you can laugh at them an say I told you so. That is what I would do at least... And then we all learn that LBA aren't what they are cracked up to be. And if they do work as well as some say, then we have a great new product. Win win if you ask me.
    I completely agree with the assesment that the request for nutraplanet is not an unreasonable one.

    since you quoted one word of mine, which is ridiculous in itself, and then replied to it in the sense that it wasn't regards to anything else... i hardly see a point to argue since... you really didn't make an effort to try to argue with anything I said.

    The fact of the matter is - just because nutraplanet doesn't carry it yet doesn't mean people haven't tried it before. This is ignorance at it's best. If you know Matt you know that he very knowledgable and helpful in this field. I don't think he'd carry someone people we spreding false claims about and promote it. Check out the bulk items NP carries. All sold products with real studies backing them as well as real life feed back.

    If you want to try it - go ahead. You can have your own opinion. Just don't try to tell me I'm wrong for having mine. I think the claims are absolutely obsurd. The people who back it are ridiculously offensive and close minded and anything that you HAVE to "try to find out" if it really works - doesn't. And as a consumer you SHOULD care and SHOULD know the full story about what your putting on your body. If YOU don't care about your body or your money then spend away. But don't tell me I shouldn't think your foolish for doing so.


    1) Increasing the ability to fight infection and decreasing the inflammatory response of pathogenic infection

    2) Increasing the ability to resist the immunosuppressive and catabolic effects of overtraining and other environmental stressors

    3) Increasing alimentary levels of IGF-1 and TGF-beta1 thus aiding in intestinal integrity and intestinal absorptive ability of nutrients – especially protein

    4) Increasing appetite as well as the efficiency of ingested protein towards lean body mass accretion
    the only thing note worthy here is the unspecified increase in IGF, which isn't an immediate benefit. It would take much longer than a month to see results from elevated levels of IGF, and how much are they elevating them? And who is Billy Carpenter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    I completely agree with the assesment that the request for nutraplanet is not an unreasonable one.

    since you quoted one word of mine, which is ridiculous in itself, and then replied to it in the sense that it wasn't regards to anything else... i hardly see a point to argue since... you really didn't make an effort to try to argue with anything I said.

    The fact of the matter is - just because nutraplanet doesn't carry it yet doesn't mean people haven't tried it before. This is ignorance at it's best. If you know Matt you know that he very knowledgable and helpful in this field. I don't think he'd carry someone people we spreding false claims about and promote it. Check out the bulk items NP carries. All sold products with real studies backing them as well as real life feed back.

    If you want to try it - go ahead. You can have your own opinion. Just don't try to tell me I'm wrong for having mine. I think the claims are absolutely obsurd. The people who back it are ridiculously offensive and close minded and anything that you HAVE to "try to find out" if it really works - doesn't. And as a consumer you SHOULD care and SHOULD know the full story about what your putting on your body. If YOU don't care about your body or your money then spend away. But don't tell me I shouldn't think your foolish for doing so.
    Yeah, I guess it does look a little weird just quoting a single word, but you are the one who used the single word "example" to respond to my statement. That was the only thing you said in response to me, so that is what I quoted. I was responding to the idea that I'm somehow an "example" of something. I'm not quite sure what, but I assume an example of either someone trying to promote the product or someone who believes internet hype about a product that you believe has no backing.

    I never said you were wrong for having your opinion. As you said yourself, I didn't try to argue with anything you said because I never said you're wrong or right. I simply have no opinion on the product hence wanting to try it.

    I believe bulk BCAA (and other bulk powders) such as those offered by NutraPlanet are great. Are BCAA and EEA better and cheaper for the value than LBA? Its certainly possible. But all I said was that I would like NP to carry the product so I can make my own assesment which you don't disagree with.

    You said because nutraplanet doesn't carry it doesn't mean people haven't tried it. This is true and a lot of feedback on it says its great, so that is partly why I wanted to try it in the first place.

    Also, sometimes science and research studies aren't totally up to date with what works and why it works. Please don't take this to mean that I don't value scientific studies or that I want to try every single product that people hype on the internet. I can be as skeptical as anyone when it comes to all the crazy supplements out there. But assuming LBA are safe, they wouldn't hurt to try it. Maybe over time science will reveal certain factors that explain why they work so well if that happens to be the case.

    Sorry for any misunderstanding and I respect your opinion. There is a chance you are right about this product being overpriced bunk. But there should really be no need for arguement in this thread. It is a simple product request which you yourself have no problem with.
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    your right my friend.

    let me explain why I quoted you, I actually was refering to a point I had made in my post immediately PREceding the one I quoted you in. I'm very scatter brained and kind of jot things down as they come to me.

    My point in quoting you was so exemplify the fact that all this product has is people on the boards raving about it. That's it.

    and to be honest - yes - it's VERY enticing to see all this feedback saying it's awesome. At least at first glance. We (including me) get excited about a product like this because we WANT to believe in it. But further investigation completely rules 99% of these claims out.

    If it were being sold as just a different BCAA source and was priced competitively then I'd say it has merit. But the claims are outrageous and the give no real world answers as to HOW any of them could be possible.

    To article above posted by "Billy Carpenter" (who ever he is) is someone's opinion. Where are the sources? This OBVIOUSLY wasn't pulled from pubmed.

    Even proven great minds in the biz - Par Dues, PA, etc... post sources because that's what makes what your saying more than opinion. Which may or may not be biased.

    I'd love to believe in this product but they answer no questions and get defensive and down right HOSTLE with every one that questions it. Eventually citing "try it and find out". Sounds like advice from some one who doesn't want to answer questions - they just want to see you spend 200 bucks.

    Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding. Totally my fault there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    your right my friend.

    let me explain why I quoted you, I actually was refering to a point I had made in my post immediately PREceding the one I quoted you in. I'm very scatter brained and kind of jot things down as they come to me.

    My point in quoting you was so exemplify the fact that all this product has is people on the boards raving about it. That's it.

    and to be honest - yes - it's VERY enticing to see all this feedback saying it's awesome. At least at first glance. We (including me) get excited about a product like this because we WANT to believe in it. But further investigation completely rules 99% of these claims out.

    If it were being sold as just a different BCAA source and was priced competitively then I'd say it has merit. But the claims are outrageous and the give no real world answers as to HOW any of them could be possible.

    To article above posted by "Billy Carpenter" (who ever he is) is someone's opinion. Where are the sources? This OBVIOUSLY wasn't pulled from pubmed.

    Even proven great minds in the biz - Par Dues, PA, etc... post sources because that's what makes what your saying more than opinion. Which may or may not be biased.

    I'd love to believe in this product but they answer no questions and get defensive and down right HOSTLE with every one that questions it. Eventually citing "try it and find out". Sounds like advice from some one who doesn't want to answer questions - they just want to see you spend 200 bucks.

    Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding. Totally my fault there.

    No problem. I can't find a good explanation as to why it should work so well and Phil Hernon seems to get strangely defensive when the product he promotes is questioned. Bulk BCAA taken at like 40 grams a day or workout have given people great results, so maybe it is just a more expensive way to get the same effect.

    If this has things in common with beef plasma however (I have no idea if it does), it may have benefits beyond traditional AA supplements. If it does have factors or ratios that give it an edge over other AA supplements that have yet to be fully understood, then it could be worth it. I just don't know one way or another. This leads me to figure that the only way I'm going to get an answer is to try it myself.
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    any word if liquid beef amino's are coming to the Planet?
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    on a side note I found who billy carpenter is and I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to portray him in a bad light. He is a credible source (or was, rather. Prayers for his family) but his lack of refrences for that article leave MUCH to the imagination. Again, just a side note. Not bashing Billy.
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    Just as a side note there is another company that sells the lba's under a different label. I am 100% certain it is manufactured for them by EFX. (I talked to the owner of EFX) It is double the size - 32 ozs. for around $10. I won't post it here but if someone from Nutra wants to pm me I can give them the info.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    any word if liquid beef amino's are coming to the Planet?
    if NP does not have it before school starts, I think RPN will have a high protein BEEFCAKE available..... It will be perfect with AI pancake.
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    lol Hey how did my pancakes get into this thread? SHILL


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    Quote Originally Posted by endless View Post
    Just as a side note there is another company that sells the lba's under a different label. I am 100% certain it is manufactured for them by EFX. (I talked to the owner of EFX) It is double the size - 32 ozs. for around $10. I won't post it here but if someone from Nutra wants to pm me I can give them the info.
    I spoke to a rep too bro after talking with you. It is not the same product. Think of what goes into a hot dog versus a steak....:hot:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max32 View Post
    I spoke to a rep too bro after talking with you. It is not the same product. Think of what goes into a hot dog versus a steak....:hot:
    Thats an extreme example
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max32 View Post
    I spoke to a rep too bro after talking with you. It is not the same product. Think of what goes into a hot dog versus a steak....:hot:
    So I wonder what would be missing in their product? The label reads the same from what I remember. Just curious.
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    Max or anyone else, did you get a chance to give LBA's a whirl? If so, how'd it go?
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    I forgot all abut this thread. has anyone has unusual success dosing beef amino's?

    I think Ken Waller used to dose these really high. Possibly all the seventies bodybuilder's
    Follow me on facebook, twitter and youtube, where I share information and videos to help you achieve your physique goals, John Smeton Ftness
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    i figure i owe an update on my experience as my opinion has changed somewhat. just finished my case of this stuff recently.

    initially i was super psyched because i felt it right away. sweating, permanently pumped muscles, and felt leaner.

    however, the effect seemed to diminish over time.
    now i believe what i was feeling was the high amount of glycerol in lbas. i had never used glycerol before this.

    after that initial feeling diminished, i'm not sure if i got much of a permanent composition change.

    IMO - i still liked it, but i feel is too expensive to not be 100% sure it is doing as advertised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Vangut View Post
    i figure i owe an update on my experience as my opinion has changed somewhat. just finished my case of this stuff recently.

    initially i was super psyched because i felt it right away. sweating, permanently pumped muscles and felt leaner.

    however, the effect seemed to diminish over time.
    now i believe what i was feeling was the high amount of glycerol in lbas. i had never used glycerol before this.

    after that initial feeling diminished, i'm not sure if i got much of a composition change.

    IMO - i still liked it, but i feel is too expensive to not be 100% sure it is doing as advertised.
    First thing that comes to my mind is a short cycle of this stuff. Like only one order. prove me wrong !
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea View Post
    First thing that comes to my mind is a short cycle of this stuff. Like only one order. prove me wrong !
    true, it is difficult to accurately evaluate over this short of a period.
    i was only able to stretch 1 case over a six week period. so i was also dosing lower than most.
    i was told that you need to run it longer to see the results. and most of those who report very positive results are running them long term or are friends with the promoter of these.
    but i just can't afford it.
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    are these the same thing Vince Gironda recommends? Dissected liver tabs?
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    im going to buy a quart of glycerine and see what that does..lots cheaper... justin harris thinks thats where people are getting the gr8 FEELINGS from...

    phats
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