Originally Posted by strategicmove

What? How?

At least in CSF.

Psychosom Med. 2004 Mar-Apr;66(2):276-82.

Exploratory open label, randomized study of acetyl- and propionylcarnitine in chronic fatigue syndrome.

Vermeulen RC, Scholte HR. Research Center Amsterdam, Amsterdam, Netherlands. info@cfscentrumamsterdam.nl

OBJECTIVES: We compared the effects of acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine and both compounds on the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). METHODS: In an open, randomized fashion we compared 2 g/d acetyl-L-carnitine, 2 g/d propionyl-L-carnitine, and its combination in 3 groups of 30 CFS patients during 24 weeks. Effects were rated by clinical global impression of change. Secondary endpoints were the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory, McGill Pain Questionnaire, and the Stroop attention concentration test. Scores were assessed 8 weeks before treatment; at randomization; after 8, 16, and 24 weeks of treatment; and 2 weeks later. RESULTS: Clinical global impression of change after treatment showed considerable improvement in 59% of the patients in the acetylcarnitine group and 63% in the propionylcarnitine group, but less in the acetylcarnitine plus propionylcarnitine group (37%). Acetylcarnitine significantly improved mental fatigue (p =.015) and propionylcarnitine improved general fatigue (p =.004). Attention concentration improved in all groups, whereas pain complaints did not decrease in any group. Two weeks after treatment, worsening of fatigue was experienced by 52%, 50%, and 37% in the acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine, and combined group, respectively. In the acetylcarnitine group, but not in the other groups, the changes in plasma carnitine levels correlated with clinical improvement. CONCLUSIONS: Acetylcarnitine and propionylcarnitine showed beneficial effect on fatigue and attention concentration. Less improvement was found by the combined treatment. Acetylcarnitine had main effect on mental fatigue and propionylcarnitine on general fatigue.



Possible reasons why:

The CGI improved in the ALC and the PLC group, but not significantly in the ALC+PLC group, likely because of the higher total carnitine ester dose and indicating an inversed U-form dose–response curve.

The effect of ALC on mental fatigue and attention concentration was significant. The PLC group showed most improvement in general and physical fatigue and slightly less in attention concentration. The ALC+PLC group improved very well on general fatigue and also, but not significantly, on physical and mental fatigue.

Originally Posted by Neuron;

At least in CSF.

Psychosom Med. 2004 Mar-Apr;66(2):276-82.

Exploratory open label, randomized study of acetyl- and propionylcarnitine in chronic fatigue syndrome.

Vermeulen RC, Scholte HR. Research Center Amsterdam, Amsterdam, Netherlands. info@cfscentrumamsterdam.nl

OBJECTIVES: We compared the effects of acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine and both compounds on the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). METHODS: In an open, randomized fashion we compared 2 g/d acetyl-L-carnitine, 2 g/d propionyl-L-carnitine, and its combination in 3 groups of 30 CFS patients during 24 weeks. Effects were rated by clinical global impression of change. Secondary endpoints were the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory, McGill Pain Questionnaire, and the Stroop attention concentration test. Scores were assessed 8 weeks before treatment; at randomization; after 8, 16, and 24 weeks of treatment; and 2 weeks later. RESULTS: Clinical global impression of change after treatment showed considerable improvement in 59% of the patients in the acetylcarnitine group and 63% in the propionylcarnitine group, but less in the acetylcarnitine plus propionylcarnitine group (37%). Acetylcarnitine significantly improved mental fatigue (p =.015) and propionylcarnitine improved general fatigue (p =.004). Attention concentration improved in all groups, whereas pain complaints did not decrease in any group. Two weeks after treatment, worsening of fatigue was experienced by 52%, 50%, and 37% in the acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine, and combined group, respectively. In the acetylcarnitine group, but not in the other groups, the changes in plasma carnitine levels correlated with clinical improvement. CONCLUSIONS: Acetylcarnitine and propionylcarnitine showed beneficial effect on fatigue and attention concentration. Less improvement was found by the combined treatment. Acetylcarnitine had main effect on mental fatigue and propionylcarnitine on general fatigue.



Possible reasons why:

The CGI improved in the ALC and the PLC group, but not significantly in the ALC+PLC group, likely because of the higher total carnitine ester dose and indicating an inversed U-form dose–response curve.

The effect of ALC on mental fatigue and attention concentration was significant. The PLC group showed most improvement in general and physical fatigue and slightly less in attention concentration. The ALC+PLC group improved very well on general fatigue and also, but not significantly, on physical and mental fatigue.

I am familiar with this study. The compounds successfully address different areas. I fail to see evidence that the two compounds contradict each other when administered simultaneously. As it turns out, the results probably suggest the existence of some type of diminishing returns as the amount of carnitine esters used increases.

Originally Posted by strategicmove

I am familiar with this study. The compounds successfully address different areas. I fail to see evidence that the two compounds contradict each other when administered simultaneously. As it turns out, the results probably suggest the existence of some type of diminishing returns as the amount of carnitine esters used increases.

It shows combining the 2 resulted in being less effective than taking either apart. If you see any reason for combining the 2 and research supporting such use please post it.

Originally Posted by Neuron;

It shows combining the 2 resulted in being less effective than taking either apart. If you see any reason for combining the 2 and research supporting such use please post it.

First, of all, we are talking about a limited example, CFS, and not a broad number of cases confirming that thesis. Second, the compounds appeared to be effective in different aspects of CFS, in line with expectations. Third, the research suggests the presence of diminishing returns in the action of carnitine esters, a plausible conclusion, rather than an antagonism between the two carnitine forms, per se. Fourth, we cannot reach general conclusions based on the results of one study alone. Fifth, the only widely recognized scientific gold standard in clinical trials are double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled studies! As far as I can see, the study you rely on does not meet these exact requirements, so it would be a major leap of faith to accept its inconclusive suggestions as the ultimate truth. I did not want to take the discussion this far, but c'est la vie!

Originally Posted by strategicmove

First, of all, we are talking about a limited example, CFS, and not a broad number of cases confirming that thesis. Second, the compounds appeared to be effective in different aspects of CFS, in line with expectations. Third, the research suggests the presence of diminishing returns in the action of carnitine esters, a plausible conclusion, rather than an antagonism between the two carnitine forms, per se. Fourth, we cannot reach general conclusions based on the results of one study alone. Fifth, the only widely recognized scientific gold standard in clinical trials are double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled studies! As far as I can see, the study you rely on does not meet these exact requirements, so it would be a major leap of faith to accept its inconclusive suggestions as the ultimate truth. I did not want to take the discussion this far, but c'est la vie!

No I agree with you hence my "At least in CFS statement". With your statement said there is no reason to combine those 2 compounds that has been proven. Thus one must review the research and decide which compound they feel they will benefit from more.

Originally Posted by Neuron;

No I agree with you hence my "At least in CFS statement". With your statement said there is no reason to combine those 2 compounds that has been proven. Thus one must review the research and decide which compound they feel they will benefit from more.

I am not sure I completely understand your comment, but my position is still that acetyl-l-carnitine hcl, (glycine) propionyl-l-carnitine, and acetyl-l-carnitine-arginate will make a great mix. One might probably have to add a universal (fat-and-water-soluble) antioxidant such as an alpha-lipoic-acid form to address possible elevations in free-radical activity due to a potential boost in mitochondrial action.

Originally Posted by strategicmove

I am not sure I completely understand your comment, but my position is still that acetyl-l-carnitine hcl, (glycine) propionyl-l-carnitine, and acetyl-l-carnitine-arginate will make a great mix. One might probably have to add a universal (fat-and-water-soluble) antioxidant such as an alpha-lipoic-acid form to address possible elevations in free-radical activity due to a potential boost in mitochondrial action.

What's your position based on? Do you have any studies supporting your view? Why would you combine ALC and ALCA together?

If you're going to use lipoic acid NA or K R-Lipoic would be the only forms I would recommend.

Originally Posted by Neuron;

What's your position based on? Do you have any studies supporting your view? Why would you combine ALC and ALCA together?

If you're going to use lipoic acid NA or K R-Lipoic would be the only forms I would recommend.

We have come full cycle to post #1854! I know NA-RALA is the most advanced and stable form of ALA around. I deliberately generalized my reference to ALA.

IDS Testofen X/Bulk Testofen powder

Originally Posted by Mr.50

Ubiquinol

bump

Originally Posted by strategicmove

What? How?

They do in chronic fatique syndrome:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15039515

Originally Posted by blind12

They do in chronic fatique syndrome:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15039515

See post #1861 above!

Tight Xtreme in reasonable price 25$ would be perfect

bulk Adrenosterone

The reformulated Dicana!
Word has it they have the stock in their warehouse!

Originally Posted by LOVERIUS

bump

Ubiquinol

Mr.50

Razorba. :bb2:

coromega packs and the Ajinomoto line in particular Amino Vital Fast Charge packs

Originally Posted by MrBrightside

IDS Testofen X/Bulk Testofen powder

We used to have it laballed Testofen, but we relabelled it as http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...100-grams.html

Guys thank you for all the suggestions and keep them coming. Things don't happen instantly, but your suggestions DO get the ball rolling! Keep it up

kanna 100:1

Ubiquinol

Any chance on getting some??????


Mr.50

how about some egg white company to sell there stuff on here? like eggoilogy or international egg whites?

Originally Posted by mindgame

how about some egg white company to sell there stuff on here? like eggoilogy or international egg whites?

X2 I wish they had this service to Canada :

Originally Posted by strategicmove

Bioperine 5mg tablets/capsules.

x2

Also a SAMe product such as the ones made by NOW or LEF would be nice, I will be including this in my next PCT for sure.

Originally Posted by Neuron

What's your position based on? Do you have any studies supporting your view? Why would you combine ALC and ALCA together?

LEF have been promoting this combination. In their words "With the discovery of acetyl-L-carnitine arginate, the benefits of acetyl-L-carnitine can now be greatly augmented."

Originally Posted by Neuron

If you're going to use lipoic acid NA or K R-Lipoic would be the only forms I would recommend.

Dinoiii made quite a convincing argument to the contrary at bb.com recently.

a CAPPED version of your Long Jack (20:1) (30 grams)
at the amount of (100 caps/400mg)

just like your
Cissus Caps 50% (100 caps/400mg)

so I can purchase them together.
both being the main staples of my supplements along with pure DHA oil.

(begging pretty please with cherries on top for you to get it within 90 days if possible, when the last of my recent order runs out, and if you get it earlier I'll stock up.)
I'd buy it on a regular basis and it would stop me from having to get my supps anywhere else.

ON Lift Bars, the choco ones

May be these have already been requested in which this is just a reminder, otherwise could you please carry :

Banaba extract (20 % corosolic acid) powder
Tyramine powder
7-hydroxy DHEA powder

Originally Posted by Rostam

May be these have already been requested in which this is just a reminder, otherwise could you please carry :

Banaba extract (20 % corosolic acid) powder
Tyramine powder
7-hydroxy DHEA powder

The 1st will be done, and the last is possibility.

Sweet!
When can we expect the 1st one?