[Nabisco]

I'd like to make a quick point here. And this point was derived from a very similar conversation with a good friend of mine, who was also a work colleague (and African American). He was a supervisor at my manufacturing plant and a very open and honest guy. So during a conversation one evening I asked him about the "cultural attitude" in the black community, he followed with an equally philosophical question about Caucasian people ("Why do white people smell like wet dogs when they get wet?"). Skipping past this rather technical question of his, we'll return to my question of him.

His response summed up, is that he believes that the popularized culture of the African American community is counter productive and solely blames that on the African American community. But then he brought up a point that I hadn't looked at before. The black community has only had 200-300 years to develop the financial aspects of their community and family units, where as, everyone else has had nearly five times that amount of time. Let me break it down real quickly.

My Great-great-grandparents (there might have been another great in there) came over from Germany just after the first world war (they were Jewish, my family is no longer jewish and I haven't found where the religion changed). So consider them European Jews. They've been working, learning, and becoming financially "astute" for generations. One thousand years ago, they could still own a home, save money, build businesses (doing whatever). The black community has really only had 200-300 years, or four-six generations to develop this side of their culture. So think about that for a second. So when my Great-great-grandparents came over (fairly poor at the time), they still had the knowledge base to become financially well off. Because for generations before that, they understood the financial institution that is the world. My colleagues Great-great-grandparents were one or two generation out of slavery. They were just becoming immersed in the world as it was...shut off from the majority of functions everyone else was entitled to. If you regard history much, its only been in the past two generations that the black community has begun moving out of the "ghettos" and/or renting, into the larger community of owning a home. So while my ancestors have had 20 generations to learn and adapt with the world financially (for lack of a better word), my colleagues family has had four generations.

Now I'm not saying the African American community gets a free pass because of this. I'm just bringing it up, because I never looked at it from this perspective before. So there's my 2 cents.

[EasyEJL]

Originally Posted by Fastone

Which situation have I blamed on anyone else?. I don't deny that there are problematic issues in the black community but by the same token, I have stated some facts that you and others choose to ignore by repeating tired stereotypes. Once again you wish to bring up the so called "child abandonment issue" but you don't address the fact of incest and abuse that permeates the white community. Why? because they're just "poor misguided individuals who need help", right? Talk about looking the other way. My point in this is that every ethnic group has their problems. You just don't choose to believe yours exist. btw, not all of you are *******s, just 95% (lol).

There are all sorts of problems in all sorts of communities. If you go back to the original post, its just an open letter from a piece of the "white community" asking the black community to stop blaming whites, and take responsibilities for their own actions.

Those incestuous abusive white families aren't blaming someone else for them being that way, and the rest of the white community doesn't blame some outside group in some speculous unrelated way. But we blame individuals for individual actions, trying to hold individuals responsible. not trying to avoid our own culpability by using what may have happened to our greatgrandparents as an excuse for our actions today.

[EasyEJL]

I've kept meaning to (but keep forgetting) to post this as an odd/interesting perspective. I have a bunch of friends who are non american black. Jamaicans, Haitians, Dominicans, etc. Interestingly enough, most of them feel no differently about the american blacks than the opinions voiced here, and refuse to associate themselves with the american black population/community.

[teribleturtle]

Originally Posted by Fastone

Well in report from the Black community, you're all *******s. You speak of the Jewish community and yes they did suffer over the centuries but once again their families came here INTACT and they were able to set up their OWN communities. Also as a result of their skin color, they could hide the ethnic origin. You guys know SO much that you are totally ignorant. This whole thread has just proved to me how far we haven't come as a society. This will be my last post on this issue and on this site for that matter. Too many of you are mixing your methyls. And btw bpmartyr, I've more than topped your insults

Later

I think that there is vaidity to your argument. A problem that many Blacks face who actually want to succeed is that the negative stereotypes and portrayals of them only serve as another obstacle. Also for the Black youth who have to hear these negative messages and portrayals of them, it becomes easy for them to have low self esteems and think they cannot do anything. Breaking the cycle of poverty and hopelessness is a real uphill battle for Blacks, probably harder than any other ethnic group has had it. While not impossible for Blacks to succeed it will be dependant on two factors; 1. Addressing problems within the community ( Families, crime, jobs) 2. American society eliminating the negative stereotypes, and misconceptions often atributed to Blacks, in order to level the playing field and gives Blacks a shot at competing, and not simply dismiss them as inferior. Handouts are not the solution, oppotunities are. Go into the inner cities as far as jobs are concerned there really isnt anything there that would allow Blacks to succeed. This is partially due to the globalized economy, the outsourcing of decent working class jobs (industry,manufacturing) and filling in with dead end service sector jobs in which many Blacks find themselves.

[Bionic]

Jews got their Nazi gold. They were found out by the Nazis by their circumcisions. Hell even the Native Americans got casinos and their free education and tax-free status. So now when Affirmative Action gets put into place which is NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK BTW, everyone has something negative to say. I think Chris Rock said it best "I don't agree with an un-qualified person getting a job over a qualified one. But if it's a tie...**** 'em!"
Many of you seem to think it's so cut and dried. You can see what centuries of being told "you ain't sh!t and are barely even human" can do to a people. Keep beating a child down and demeaning his self-worth and watch what kind of adult you produce.
I posted this story in another thread. When I first got into the production industry, I had to temp in between gigs or while on a hiatus to make ends meet. Well, I got a temp job at another employment agency. There were a bunch of jobs that paid REALLY well (like $25. p/h) that I was specifically told to not refer any black people for. I was even given a memo by the employer that said as much. Now, I'm only half-black and am "passable" so they had no idea who they were dealing with. Guess what I did? HAHAHA??? Needless to say, I was threatened to be fired and asked if I was stupid. I calmly informed them of their illegal business practices and would go public with it should I get anything less than a sparkling reference and a full day's pay. After speaking with other employees, I learned that this practice was very common in EVERY employment agency that they'd worked for. Institutional racism at its finest. Keep in mind, this wasn't the south in the 60's. This was NYC at the end of the 20th Century.
And guess what? Not EVERY black person blames "Whitey." You see one (or even a hundred) guys on TV saying some ignorant crap and all of a sudden, they're the voice of ALL black people. You need to understand that the "News" is TV and they pick and choose who gets on air to make "good TV." That's a whole other topic though. But to all of you who think it's as easy for black to "get it together" as other races, you have NO idea. I've seen some "behind the scenes" things (one of which I've shared with you) with my own eyes and unless you were there, you can't tell me anything. Furthermore, the gross generalizations being made in this thread are just straight up ignorant.

[Bionic]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

I've kept meaning to (but keep forgetting) to post this as an odd/interesting perspective. I have a bunch of friends who are non american black. Jamaicans, Haitians, Dominicans, etc. Interestingly enough, most of them feel no differently about the american blacks than the opinions voiced here, and refuse to associate themselves with the american black population/community.

This is a side-effect of European Colonialism and straight up ignorance.

[EasyEJL]

Originally Posted by Bionic

After speaking with other employees, I learned that this practice was very common in EVERY employment agency that they'd worked for. Institutional racism at its finest. Keep in mind, this wasn't the south in the 60's. This was NYC at the end of the 20th Century.

Actually i've said that before myself, I sort of prefer the direct prejudices of the south better than the hidden ones of the north. at least in the south they will say it to your face.

[teribleturtle]

Originally Posted by Bionic

This is a side-effect of European Colonialism and straight up ignorance.

Check out Frantz Fanon's "Black Skin White Masks" basically an account of other pyschological effects that rascism/colonialism has had not only on Blacks but colonized/oppressed racial groups in general. Based on your posts it seems to me though, that you might already be familiar with Fanon.

[Bionic]

Originally Posted by teribleturtle

Check out Frantz Fanon's "Black Skin White Masks" basically an account of other pyschological effects that rascism/colonialism has had not only on Blacks but colonized/oppressed racial groups in general. Based on your posts it seems to me though, that you might already be familiar with Fanon.

Thanks for the info, T. I've not read it but am aware of him and his work.

[goslamacamel]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

I've kept meaning to (but keep forgetting) to post this as an odd/interesting perspective. I have a bunch of friends who are non american black. Jamaicans, Haitians, Dominicans, etc. Interestingly enough, most of them feel no differently about the american blacks than the opinions voiced here, and refuse to associate themselves with the american black population/community.

Oh man, real Africans come here and hate black Americans.

[Red Dog]

Originally Posted by goslamacamel

Oh man, real Africans come here and hate black Americans.

Every legitimate African I've ever discussed this topic with (4-5 men) doesn't like to be grouped or associated with black Americans..

[goslamacamel]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

Every legitimate African I've ever discussed this topic with (4-5 men) doesn't like to be grouped or associated with black Americans..

Yeah I met a Jamaican one time who despised who he called "lazy monkeys". Now that's pretty racist.

[Fastone]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

There are all sorts of problems in all sorts of communities. If you go back to the original post, its just an open letter from a piece of the "white community" asking the black community to stop blaming whites, and take responsibilities for their own actions.

Those incestuous abusive white families aren't blaming someone else for them being that way, and the rest of the white community doesn't blame some outside group in some speculous unrelated way. But we blame individuals for individual actions, trying to hold individuals responsible. not trying to avoid our own culpability by using what may have happened to our greatgrandparents as an excuse for our actions today.

You know, as this discussion progressed, it was really starting to piss me off but then I thought "What would Peter Griffin do" (a little levity here). I have a very close friend who is white and godfather to my younger son that when we met 35 years ago, we initially hated each others guts mainly because of comments similar to yours and I would give it right back. As members of the organization we were in however, and being in the same section, we had to find a way to get along for the good of the program and we both wanted to be there. Long story short, at some point we began to talk and over time found that we had much more in common than we ever thought. The fact that we won a couple of World Championships together didn't hurt either. Which brings me back to my original post, you are entitled to your perceptions but if everyone would just take the time to look a little deeper and be a little more open minded the healing could begin

I could relate experiences to you from a young age and things that happened to members of my family going back generations that would make you wonder why I would ever want to associate with white people in any way. But, on the other hand, I can also give many more examples of kindness and generosity of spirit that I have experienced that make you realize that under it all, we are just people. Hence my original post.

[EasyEJL]

I can give exeriences from my youth as to why I dislike the black "entitlements" as well but...

I don't choose to associate myself with trailer park folks. Yes they share the same skin color, but who cares? caring about skin color is racism.

You seem to choose to associate yourself with the ghetto hood rats, solely based on skin color. that is racist.

I don't have a problem with any person who wants to keep their individuality, pride in their heritage etc. I do have a problem with someone who expects to wear their $100 jeans a foot below their waist hanging over their $150 sneakers that were paid for with money they got from stealing or dealing drugs, and who collects food stamps and lives in section 8 housing. i do't care what color their skin is.