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2008 Election

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    2008 Election


    With the election down to basically a 4 person race (Sorry to Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee supporters, they are basically done), where do you throw your support.

    I must admit that I am disheartened at this point with all 4, but the person I disagree with the least is Barack Obama, so to answer my own question, he is where my vote goes in November if he is there.
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    i got money on the demo's so as long as one of them gets in i don't care.
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    I will be voting for Obama next week here in the NY State primary.
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    I am a Ron Paul supporter BIG time, but like you said --- there really is no chance. None of the other republicans are anything I am excited about, but I believe John McCain will be most well-able to work "across the aisle" and to me if something is going to change in this country that is what has to happen.
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    Blackjack, just curious if his stance on Iraq (major expansion of the war) scares you at all?
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    I know I like Billary the least
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    any reason why?
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    I said it before this race began, that if McCain got the nod, I'd vote for him with no hesitation. I don't necessarily agree with all his stances (who really agrees with all of any politician's stances?) but I do believe strongly that he speaks his mind and will undoubtedly be a good leader for America.
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    with McCain for me his stance on the war and immigration are a tad off IMO
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    McCain had one of his previous quotes brought up to question, "i hate all g**ks and I always will" but I suppose I could understand his rage being tortured as a POW.

    The only significant difference in policies between Billary and Obama was their policy on immigration and being from Southern California, that's a main issue. Obama made his refute that illegal immigrants don't effect social economics based on his experience in the south side of Chicago. Chicago is not the same as Southern California and the borders of Texas. That didn't appeal to me well.
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    McCain also had another quote brought up at the debate that was frightening: "We could very well be in Iraq for another 100 years"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    McCain also had another quote brought up at the debate that was frightening: "We could very well be in Iraq for another 100 years"
    hahaha

    I'm not anti-Iraq war in all honesty. To be completely truthful, I've not taken the time to really do some self conviction in conjunction with international, short & long term concerns & consequence to really have a passionate stance on one side or the other. My surface reaction is more for it then against it, but I couldn't defend my stance with any convincing arguments from an internal belief or profound, informed reasoning. With that said, nothing about me can justify "another 100 years" even if that were a figure of speech, that mentality seems a bit crazy.

    If it can't be fixed in the next 10 years, f** we tried, it's time to go.

    I know we mean well, and I believe in "meaning well" to an extent, world peace & what not and abolishing enemies that threaten the U.S. I'm heavily for the latter (and I know we can get into why they're justified to hate us, bad international policies & what not, but my selfish side says if its I live or they live, I pick I live, and i'll leave it at that) But I just don't see Democracy band aiding tribal feuds that date back to the Book of Judges, no matter how bad we want it. I could be ignorant, but that's how I reason with my limited understanding of a very large picture.
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    Shoudn't start a war if you can't afford it... like body armor, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    hahaha

    I'm not anti-Iraq war in all honesty. To be completely truthful, I've not taken the time to really do some self conviction in conjunction with international, short & long term concerns & consequence to really have a passionate stance on one side or the other. My surface reaction is more for it then against it, but I couldn't defend my stance with any convincing arguments from an internal belief or profound, informed reasoning. With that said, nothing about me can justify "another 100 years" even if that were a figure of speech, that mentality seems a bit crazy.

    If it can't be fixed in the next 10 years, f** we tried, it's time to go.

    I know we mean well, and I believe in "meaning well" to an extent, world peace & what not and abolishing enemies that threaten the U.S. I'm heavily for the latter (and I know we can get into why they're justified to hate us, bad international policies & what not, but my selfish side says if its I live or they live, I pick I live, and i'll leave it at that) But I just don't see Democracy band aiding tribal feuds that date back to the Book of Judges, no matter how bad we want it. I could be ignorant, but that's how I reason with my limited understanding of a very large picture.
    the funniest thing at the debate was when this was broached, Ron Paul looked at him dead in the face and said "care to tell me where we are going to get the money for that?" .....Priceless
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    McCain also had another quote brought up at the debate that was frightening: "We could very well be in Iraq for another 100 years"
    Apparently you dont understand world issues very well. McCain has always said that its not troop presence the American public cant stomach, its casualties. How long have we been in Korea? I guarantee we will have been there for over 100 years by the time we leave. Same thing with Iraq unless we vote in a gutless cut and run Dem.

    What he CLEARLY means by it is we will have a much much much smaller troop presence in Iraq for 100 years, as we have in Korea for around 50 years. Most likely a thousand troops or less. Anyone that is even capable of spinning that into making it look like he is saying our current troop numbers will continue for 100 years just doesnt understand world issues very well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNorris View Post
    Apparently you dont understand world issues very well. McCain has always said that its not troop presence the American public cant stomach, its casualties. How long have we been in Korea? I guarantee we will have been there for over 100 years by the time we leave. Same thing with Iraq unless we vote in a gutless cut and run Dem.

    What he CLEARLY means by it is we will have a much much much smaller troop presence in Iraq for 100 years, as we have in Korea for around 50 years. Most likely a thousand troops or less. Anyone that is even capable of spinning that into making it look like he is saying our current troop numbers will continue for 100 years just doesnt understand world issues very well.
    Off Topic. Wasn't the show M*A*S*H* based in the Korean War?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    Off Topic. Wasn't the show M*A*S*H* based in the Korean War?
    Yeah it was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNorris View Post
    Apparently you dont understand world issues very well. McCain has always said that its not troop presence the American public cant stomach, its casualties. How long have we been in Korea? I guarantee we will have been there for over 100 years by the time we leave. Same thing with Iraq unless we vote in a gutless cut and run Dem.

    What he CLEARLY means by it is we will have a much much much smaller troop presence in Iraq for 100 years, as we have in Korea for around 50 years. Most likely a thousand troops or less. Anyone that is even capable of spinning that into making it look like he is saying our current troop numbers will continue for 100 years just doesnt understand world issues very well.
    first, so happy to see you back

    now onto the issue at hand. you are saying he clearly means that and you know this how? When it was broached at the debate that was not what was being said. Dr. Paul's response and McCains lack of response were not indicative of your point. Additionally, McCain has been quoted as saying we could very well use force in Iran and Pakistan as needed. We DO NOT need another war monger in the white house. It is time for a change from that nonsense
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    im not voting unless ron paul is on the ballot. call me crazy but if you dont think he is the best choice for president then i think youre crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    im not voting unless ron paul is on the ballot. call me crazy but if you dont think he is the best choice for president then i think youre crazy.
    I really do not understand why voting in the US isn't compulsary. All i can say is if members of the public do not vote and their man or women does not get the job then stfu and don't b1tch like everybody does about Bush.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    I really do not understand why voting in the US isn't compulsary. All i can say is if members of the public do not vote and their man or women does not get the job then stfu and don't b1tch like everybody does about Bush.
    im sorry, i dont quite get what youre saying?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    im sorry, i dont quite get what youre saying?
    not a swipe at u piston sorry. i remember the last time there was an election in the US i was in OZ and they were showing the people voting on tv. there was a heap of people who blatantly said they didnt want to spend there day lining up to vote or to register or whatever it is you have to do. but for the past few years every single american i have met absolutely loathes GWB yet they didnt vote against him for the reasons i mentioned above.thats what im saying. if you dont vote then your opinion doesnt count.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    first, so happy to see you back

    now onto the issue at hand. you are saying he clearly means that and you know this how? When it was broached at the debate that was not what was being said. Dr. Paul's response and McCains lack of response were not indicative of your point. Additionally, McCain has been quoted as saying we could very well use force in Iran and Pakistan as needed. We DO NOT need another war monger in the white house. It is time for a change from that nonsense
    Yes we need a weak inexperienced cut and run hippy that is the most liberal member of the US senate. A person who would cut tail and run from Iraq when we are winning. A person who would cause our country and the middle east irreparable harm with his idealistic, immature and weak minded foreign policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNorris View Post
    Yes we need a weak inexperienced cut and run hippy that is the most liberal member of the US senate. A person who would cut tail and run from Iraq when we are winning. A person who would cause our country and the middle east irreparable harm with his idealistic, immature and weak minded foreign policy.

    I think your synopsis of Obama is short sighted and palin wrong. However, in contrast to your statements, we need someone who will escalate the conflict, and possibly futher enrage an area that is already at a boiling point, and all the while push for conflict in Iran and possibly elsewhere, which will then in turn kill more of an already lost generation? Sorry cant see how the war monger is the best choice.

    If you take a look online at ontheissuesdotcom or whatever the heck it is, some of McCains stances are downright frightening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    I think your synopsis of Obama is short sighted and palin wrong. However, in contrast to your statements, we need someone who will escalate the conflict, and possibly futher enrage an area that is already at a boiling point, and all the while push for conflict in Iran and possibly elsewhere, which will then in turn kill more of an already lost generation? Sorry cant see how the war monger is the best choice.

    If you take a look online at ontheissuesdotcom or whatever the heck it is, some of McCains stances are downright frightening.
    Actually we need someone who will fight for America's interests, for Iraq's interests the the entire world's interests by opposing a fascist, genocidal and flat out dangerous regime that is determined to obtain nuclear weapons and militarily dominate the middle east. We need a person that will not negotiate or appease evil where it exists. We dont need someone so blinded by his radical leftist hippy ideology that he will ignore and downplay any threats to world peace.

    Its people like Obama that would have opposed even getting involved in WW2. Excuse me if its tough for me to trust their blindly idealistic and flat out irresponsible ideology. I am not interested in voting for someone that bases their decisions on what the most evil, fascist and genocidal people in the entire world think. I dont want to vote for someone that is foolish enough to support peace even if it results in a nuclear armed Iran that will consolidate military power in the middle east, look to destroy Israel and threaten Europe and the US with long ranged nuclear missiles. If you think we should appease and not oppose Iran's stated goal to develop nuclear weapons technology than you are not fit for office, let alone to vote.'

    If you look at Obama's far left voting records and appeasement first; world safety a distant second foreign policy, it proves he is not experienced enough or smart enough to lead this country. I will not vote for anyone that Al Quaida, Hugo Chavez or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad would endorse.

    I think its also important to remember that McCain is a moderate, Obama is the most far left senator. We have a radical leftist vs a moderate that will likely be the candidates in 2008. Good luck with that one liberals. No amount of rhetoric can cover up Obama's inexperience , far life ideology and bring him into the mainstream of America.
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    just to sum it up, McCain may be moderate in certain areas, but his stance on the war is not. For you to imply by the way that there was a need to be in Iraq is downright laughable and shows a lack of knowledge on the country of Iraq and their "relationship" w/ AQ.

    Additionally, Obama is most certainly not the most far left and is actually quite moderate considering his appeal to may of the independants. If you would like to make those statements, please source many of the votes you are referring to.

    Finally, please show me where AQ endorsed Obama, I would love to see the commerical Osama for Obama. Come on man, you are stretching a bit thin on this
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    just to sum it up, McCain may be moderate in certain areas, but his stance on the war is not. For you to imply by the way that there was a need to be in Iraq is downright laughable and shows a lack of knowledge on the country of Iraq and their "relationship" w/ AQ.

    Additionally, Obama is most certainly not the most far left and is actually quite moderate considering his appeal to may of the independants. If you would like to make those statements, please source many of the votes you are referring to.

    Finally, please show me where AQ endorsed Obama, I would love to see the commerical Osama for Obama. Come on man, you are stretching a bit thin on this
    LOL try again. This debate isnt about why we went into Iraq its about our policy now. And Obama, Cut and Run Ron and all the other lunatics are wrong on the current issue at hand. Keep your change the subject and spin the debate into another issue tactics up all you want but it wont work with Americans.

    And yes. Obama is moderate. Thats why he was named the most liberal member of the senate in 2007 based on his voting record. NATIONAL JOURNAL: Obama: Most Liberal Senator in 2007 (01/31/2008)

    I am stretching it to say that radical fascist Muslims wouldn't rather have a terrorist appeasing cut and run hippy in office rather than a noble man that will oppose their evil goals? I don't think so. Honestly they would most likely prefer Cut and Run Ron, but I'm sure Obama would be better for them than McCain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNorris View Post
    Actually we need someone who will fight for America's interests, for Iraq's interests the the entire world's interests by opposing a fascist, genocidal and flat out dangerous regime that is determined to obtain nuclear weapons and militarily dominate the middle east. We need a person that will not negotiate or appease evil where it exists.
    An American leader fights for America's interests first. Iraqis have their own nation and leaders to solve their problems.

    Where evil exists depends who you ask. Maybe seek a broader consensus than from the American media and government propaganda machine.

    Its people like Obama that would have opposed even getting involved in WW2.
    The majority of Americans were strongly opposed to joining WW2. Wars are expensive and destructive instead of conservative and productive. No one wins by starting wars except those who profit from them, who are usually the same people advocating them.

    If you think we should appease and not oppose Iran's stated goal to develop nuclear weapons technology than you are not fit for office, let alone to vote.
    Iran has stated it has no interest in nuclear weapons technology. Oil is running out and they have a large population that needs energy, so they want to use nuclear power to produce electricity. There is no statement or evidence contrary to this, even after extensive nuclear inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency.

    American intelligence recently made a public statement confirming Iran has no nuclear weapons program. This was probably done so that its leaders didn't start another war based on ignorance and lies.

    It sounds like you are still in the market for a war started under the pretense of looking for more WMDs that don't exist. You might want to do a little research about Iran before repeating the soundbite half-truths from media and other sources. You might also want to understand the background a little better by watching the BBC special The Power of Nightmares.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firecross View Post
    An American leader fights for America's interests first. Iraqis have their own nation and leaders to solve their problems.

    If you are able to be so idealistic that you can separate Iraq's success from American, European and the rest of the free world's interests than you lack a crucial fundamental understanding of global politics.

    Where evil exists depends who you ask. Maybe seek a broader consensus than from the American media and government propaganda machine.

    You mean lets seek a consensus from countries that are being paid off by the same brutal and murderous dictators we seek to stop? A consensus from countries that sell weapons to Iran, and use Iran as a pawn in their world chess stragety to reduce the powers of the US and increase their own? A consensus from radically leftist governments that have all but completely abolished their military?

    "The majority of Americans were strongly opposed to joining WW2. Wars are expensive and destructive instead of conservative and productive. No one wins by starting wars except those who profit from them, who are usually the same people advocating them.

    Yes, no one benefited from WW2 except for those that stopped Hitler's genocidal rampage throughout Europe? Wow. I have now heard it all. I think you forget the fundamental concept that WW2 has thought us that remaining neutral and passive when clear threats are building can and will result in a far more destructive event when the inevitable conflict occurs. If more people had the foresight that President Roosevelt's did many more people would have survived that time in history. Those who sit Idle and let Hitler rise to power have blood on their hands just as much as the German army did.

    Iran has stated it has no interest in nuclear weapons technology. Oil is running out and they have a large population that needs energy, so they want to use nuclear power to produce electricity. There is no statement or evidence contrary to this, even after extensive nuclear inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency.

    American intelligence recently made a public statement confirming Iran has no nuclear weapons program. This was probably done so that its leaders didn't start another war based on ignorance and lies.

    It sounds like you are still in the market for a war started under the pretense of looking for more WMDs that don't exist. You might want to do a little research about Iran before repeating the soundbite half-truths from media and other sources. You might also want to understand the background a little better by watching the BBC special The Power of Nightmares.
    "Seldom can a single document have caused quite such a stir. The National Intelligence Estimate, compiled by the US government's 16 intelligence agencies, has stood the conventional wisdom on Iran's nuclear weapons programme on its head. Teheran is not, it seems, engaged in the development of nuclear warheads after all. That weapons programme was put on ice in 2003 and, as far as the NIE can tell, there it remains.

    Before popping the champagne, it is as well to remember that the NIE issued a report just over two years ago saying exactly the opposite. In its May 2005 analysis, it said that it had "high confidence that Iran currently is determined to develop nuclear weapons". Yet that gloomy assessment was made, according to this week's report, when the nuclear programme had already been on hold for two years. Intelligence may be an inexact science but this looks positively perverse. It argues for taking the NIE assessment with a generous pinch of salt: another one could come along in a year or two saying something else again."

    I wish I could be as idealistic and ignorant to believe the lack of a smoking gun means that Iran has no intentions of using nuclear weapons on those long range missiles they are developing and testing. I wish I could ignore the words of their leaders who brazenly admit that nuclear technology is their right. I wish I could ignore a dangerous and genocidal regime that wants nothing more than to acquire nuclear weapons in order to consolidate military power in the middle east, threated Europe, the US and rise to be a superpower.
    History will prove wrong all of you who think one report instantly makes Iran not a threat. Mark my words. You will be proven as wrong as those who wanted to stay out of the early parts of WW2.

    "Iran's past behavior precludes any legitimate claim to nuclear power. You simply do not hand a loaded shotgun to a three year-old and not expect to get shot."
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    Quote Originally Posted by firecross View Post
    The majority of Americans were strongly opposed to joining WW2. Wars are expensive and destructive instead of conservative and productive. No one wins by starting wars except those who profit from them, who are usually the same people advocating them.
    I think you are confusing WW1 with WW2. The vast majority of the United States was very pro-war, especially after Pearl Harbor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    I think you are confusing WW1 with WW2. The vast majority of the United States was very pro-war, especially after Pearl Harbor.
    keep in mind the war in euopre had been on for a while and FDR had no chance of approval in the US till Pearl Harbor. Kinda interesting that whole event, but dont want to hijack my own thread with that.
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    unsubbed. not another thread on politics with good ol boy cnorris.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329;
    I think your synopsis of Obama is short sighted and palin wrong. However, in contrast to your statements, we need someone who will escalate the conflict, and possibly futher enrage an area that is already at a boiling point, and all the while push for conflict in Iran and possibly elsewhere, which will then in turn kill more of an already lost generation? Sorry cant see how the war monger is the best choice....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    keep in mind the war in euopre had been on for a while and FDR had no chance of approval in the US till Pearl Harbor. Kinda interesting that whole event, but dont want to hijack my own thread with that.
    I was a history major, so while I can accept this current synopsis, the previous one was incorrect. What you said before was like saying that most Americans were against the war in Iraq before it started. You're bending historical facts to prove your points and that's not at all right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    I think you are confusing WW1 with WW2. The vast majority of the United States was very pro-war, especially after Pearl Harbor.
    Before WW2 (and Pearl Harbor) the majority of Americans favored an isolationist viewpoint. They were NOT in favor of entering WW2 due to economic hardship. He even acknowledge this in his "Arsenal of Democracy" speech in 1940 which he basically admitted that our goal was to supply Europe (which would ease economic pressure), not intervene. Churchill basically begged Roosevelt for a year to intervene and he did not until Pearl Harbor (which shifted public sentiment).

    There are several books covering the switch from isolationism to interventionism.


    So in other words, if Pearl Harbor never happened, Americans would probably be speaking German.
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    Romney, Huckabee, and the rest of the Republicans, besides McCain, don't have a chance in hell. McCain will be able to put up quite a fight against the Democrats, but in the end, the Dems will be taking over the White House again. Clinton is losing a lot of support because of her big mouth and spiteful attitude. I didn't mind her much, up until I found out that she voted for the Iraq war, without knowing any details. She wants total control. She's very determined to get that. She just won't budge for anything or anybody. It's kinda scary. I think our country's been through enough since 2000. I do believe Obama is going to win the presidency and I will be voting for him, and may even be donating some money to his campaign. He has even won the support of several Repubs! Quite a few Repubs have their faith in him. He's young, healthy, extremely intelligent, has an optimistic outlook, has a very good agenda lined up, and seems like he's a guy who enjoys getting things done. McCain will put up a fight, though, but in the end, America will decide and hopefully the decision sticks this time, unlike the last election. I must admit that I do like Rudy Guiliani, but of course, he's no longer in the race and I wouldn't vote for him anyway. He seems to be the most liberal Repub, but he did help NYC through a lot, especially after 9/11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slow-mun View Post
    I was a history major, so while I can accept this current synopsis, the previous one was incorrect. What you said before was like saying that most Americans were against the war in Iraq before it started. You're bending historical facts to prove your points and that's not at all right.

    Actually I am a history teacher so lets look at the facts. Polls prior to pearl harbor gave an approval under 20% for entrance into another european war. Keep in mind the country was struggling economically as the new deal was not the "big deal" it was thought to be and the US had just fought a few decades earlier in WWI. The only way FDR could get approval from the public and congress for the war was an attack on American soil. Look logically
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleGuyinNY View Post
    I'm also against tightening up gun control, only because of our right to bear arms granted to us by the US Constition, which would be labeled as a conservative/Repub view.
    I am not trying ot hijack or change topics, but wanted to address this. The 2nd ammend. is not so cut and dry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Before WW2 (and Pearl Harbor) the majority of Americans favored an isolationist viewpoint. They were NOT in favor of entering WW2 due to economic hardship. He even acknowledge this in his "Arsenal of Democracy" speech in 1940 which he basically admitted that our goal was to supply Europe (which would ease economic pressure), not intervene. Churchill basically begged Roosevelt for a year to intervene and he did not until Pearl Harbor (which shifted public sentiment).

    There are several books covering the switch from isolationism to interventionism.


    So in other words, if Pearl Harbor never happened, Americans would probably be speaking German.
    I'm not disputing this in any way. My point was in reference to after the Pearl Harbor attack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    Actually I am a history teacher so lets look at the facts. Polls prior to pearl harbor gave an approval under 20% for entrance into another european war. Keep in mind the country was struggling economically as the new deal was not the "big deal" it was thought to be and the US had just fought a few decades earlier in WWI. The only way FDR could get approval from the public and congress for the war was an attack on American soil. Look logically
    I am. Entrance into the second world war actually lifted our economy fully out of the Great Depression. You're right that their wasn't universal support for the war prior to Pearl Harbor, but that quickly changed in one day. That's something that cannot be disputed.
  

  
 

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