- 06-02-2006, 01:45 AM
1: J Ethnopharmacol. 2005 Oct 3;101(1-3):319-23. Related Articles, Links
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The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men.
Neychev VK, Mitev VI.
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Medical University, 2 Zdrave str., Sofia-1431, Bulgaria. firstname.lastname@example.org
OBJECTIVE: The aim of the current study is to investigate the influence of Tribulus terrestris extract on androgen metabolism in young males. DESIGN AND METHODS: Twenty-one healthy young 20-36 years old men with body weight ranging from 60 to 125 kg were randomly separated into three groups-two experimental (each n=7) and a control (placebo) one (n=7). The experimental groups were named TT1 and TT2 and the subjects were assigned to consume 20 and 10 mg/kg body weight per day of Tribulus terrestris extract, respectively, separated into three daily intakes for 4 weeks. Testosterone, androstenedione and luteinizing hormone levels in the serum were measured 24 h before supplementation (clear probe), and at 24, 72, 240, 408 and 576 h from the beginning of the supplementation. RESULTS: There was no significant difference between Tribulus terrestris supplemented groups and controls in the serum testosterone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 15.75+/-1.75 nmol/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 16.32+/-1.57 nmol/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 17.74+/-1.09 nmol/l) (p>0.05)), androstenedione (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 1.927+/-0.126 ng/ml); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 2.026+/-0.256 ng/ml); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 1.952+/-0.236 ng/ml) (p>0.05)) or luteinizing hormone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.662+/-0.274U/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.103+/-0.869U/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 4.170+/-0.406U/l) (p>0.05)) levels. All results were within the normal range. The findings in the current study anticipate that Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties. The study will be extended in the clarifying the probable mode of action of Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins.
* Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 15994038 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
- 06-02-2006, 04:13 AM
Totally not surprised. Its not at all ironic that Trib. products exploded on the market after the first prohormone ban. Trib has been around for a long time. Certain blends may do something, but I've personally never experienced it. Herbs like Maca and Fenugreek have much more pronounced, and studied, effect.
- 06-02-2006, 06:47 AM
That is very strange. I do notice an effect on both Fenugreek and Tribulus separately. If they don't exert "androgen stimulating" effects, they certainly increase something that increases libido.PharmD
06-02-2006, 01:20 PM
again I was not surprised by this. I think someone did some bloodtests using trib a while back and had bad results.
06-02-2006, 01:21 PM
06-02-2006, 01:25 PM
Exactly. I am not sure by what pathways tribulus works through but it really does increase libido for me and I highly doubt its placebo as it has been replicated. And considering all of the others, Fenu, MACA, etc. are all saponins like Trib. I find it hard to believe that everyone who have used these saw only a placebo effect. Although the increased libido could be mediated through other pathways besides testosterone.Originally Posted by xtraflossy
06-02-2006, 01:31 PM
honestly it has been so long ago I forget if there was an increase in estrogen or just not a rise in test. It would probably take forever for me to find that post.Originally Posted by xtraflossy
06-02-2006, 01:41 PM
In the first study, Antonio and colleagues (9) evaluated the effects of Tribulus terrestris supplementation
during training on body composition and performance. In a double blind and randomized manner, 15
resistance-trained males ingested either 3.21 mg/kg/day of a placebo (P) or Tribulus terrestris (T) for eight
weeks during a standardized resistance-training program. Prior to and following supplementation,
subjects completed dietary inventories, a mood state psychological inventory, and had body composition
(skinfolds and hydrostatic weighing) and total body water (bioelectrical impedance) measurements
determined. The subjects also performed a maximum repetition tests on the bench press and leg press at
100% and 200% of body weight, respectively. Results revealed that Tribulus terrestris supplementation
had no significant effects on changes in mood states, total body weight (P +0.6, T +0.9 kg), total body
water (P +0.9, T +0.3 liters), hydrostatically determined percent body fat (P +0.2, T +0.0 %), or gains in
bench press (P +28.4, T +3.1 %) or leg press (P +26.1, T +28.6 %) muscle endurance. Although LH and
testosterone levels were not assessed in this study, results indicated that Tribulus terrestris
supplementation (approximately 250 mg/day) during resistance training had no significant effects on body
composition or training adaptations.
Proponents of Tribulus terrestris supplementation have suggested that the dosage in the previous study
may have been insufficient, that Tribulus terrestris may be more effective when coingested with other
anabolic precursors, and/or that Tribulus terrestris may have a greater impact on untrained subjects
initiating training. However, research findings from a study by Brown and associates (10) do not support
these contentions. In the first part of this study, 10 subjects were evaluated to determine the effects of
ingesting a placebo or anabolic precursors on hormone levels. Subjects had fasting blood determined and
then ingested a placebo or a supplement containing 100 mg androstenedione, 50 mg DHEA, 250 mg
Tribulus terrestris, 195 mg Chrysin, 100 mg Indole-3-carbinol, and 180 mg Saw palmetto. Blood samples
were obtained every hour for six hours. Results revealed that anabolic precursor supplementation
significantly increased androstenedione levels. However, no significant differences were between the
placebo and anabolic precursor trials in LH, follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), estradiol, free
testosterone, or total testosterone levels. These findings suggest that although anabolic precursors may
increase androstenedione levels, they have no significant acute effect on other androgenic or estrogenic
06-02-2006, 01:43 PM
I am reading multiple studies now, however, that say when fed to rats aphrodesiac activity definitely increased.
Either way I would take it during PCT to increase libido
06-02-2006, 01:56 PM
Yeah, most of the studies I read seem to imply Trib is useless for muscle, but a good addition for libido. Also, Maca has been proven to raise Test and LH in a bunch of studies I've read, so it is definitely legit.Originally Posted by LakeMountD
06-02-2006, 02:48 PM
I've had some moderate libido increases when using quality trib products. I would have never expected it to do much for young males, which is the group studied here. I'd like to see a study using old bastages like me.Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
06-02-2006, 02:49 PM
I had seen a few on 21-70 year old males, don't know where in that bastage category you fall, but I'll do some more digging.Originally Posted by diamonddave
06-02-2006, 03:05 PM
Right- I remember reading studies showing that trib was preatty useless for muscle gains. But I have always felt something from it, even it came from an increase in estrogen and the accompaning test increase (although no study supports that that I am aware of,.. this was just my assumption).Originally Posted by LakeMountD
Interesting though, that in the study you had posted, the andro, DHEA and other precursers did nothing as well. because I know when I take DHEA, it feels like I have a spike in test production.
Anywyas- Trib will remain a staple in PCT, until there are more definitive answers as to what it is I feel when I take it
06-02-2006, 03:20 PM
And, if you thought it couldn't be done...
Gynaecomastia and the plant product "Tribulis terrestris".
Jameel JK, Kneeshaw PJ, Rao VS, Drew PJ.
Academic Surgical Unit, Castle Hill Hospital, University of Hull, Cottingham, East Yorkshire HU16 5JQ, UK.
Gynaecomastia is the commonest benign breast condition seen in men. It is well recognised that certain drugs that alter the normal sex hormonal profile in the body can induce gynaecomastia. Recently, an increasing use of androgenic-anabolic steroids among young men especially body-builders has increased the incidence of gynaecomastia. We report a case of a young weight-trainer who developed gynaecomastia due to oral intake of a herbal tablet which he used as a steroid alternative for body-building.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
-Ummmm,.. well, who knows, but how is it well known that Trib alters hormons, yet all the studies say otherwise..
06-02-2006, 03:25 PM
06-02-2006, 03:26 PM
Well Damn! -Ok, now This....
Ingestion of a dietary supplement containing dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and androstenedione has minimal effect on immune function in middle-aged men.
Kohut ML, Thompson JR, Campbell J, Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Jackson DA, King DS.
Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA. email@example.com
OBJECTIVE: This study investigated the effects of four weeks of intake of a supplement containing dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), androstenedione and herbal extracts on immune function in middle-aged men. DESIGN: Subjects consumed either an oral placebo or an oral supplement for four weeks. The supplement contained a total daily dose of 150 mg DHEA, 300 mg androstenedione, 750 mg Tribulus terrestris, 625 mg chrysin, 300 mg indole-3-carbinol and 540 mg saw palmetto. MEASUREMENTS: Peripheral blood mononuclear cells were used to assess phytohemagglutinin(PHA)-induced lymphocyte proliferation and cytokine production. The cytokines measured were interleukin (IL)-2, IL-4, IL-10, IL-1beta, and interferon (IFN)-gamma. Serum free testosterone, androstenedione, estradiol, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) were also measured. RESULTS: The supplement significantly increased serum levels of androstenedione, free testosterone, estradiol and DHT during week 1 to week 4. Supplement intake did not affect LPS or ConA proliferation and had minimal effect on PHA-induced proliferation. LPS-induced production of IL-1beta, and PHA-induced IL-2, IL-4, IL-10, or IFN-gamma production was not altered by the supplement. The addition of the same supplement, DHEA or androstenedione alone to lymphocyte cultures in vitro did not alter lymphocyte proliferation, IL-2, IL-10, or IFN-gamma, but did increase IL-4. In addition, serum HDL-C concentration significantly declined. CONCLUSION: These findings suggest that, although chronic intake of a complex dietary supplement containing DHEA, androstenedione and herbal extracts increases serum androgen levels, it has minimal effect on immune function in middle-aged men.
Ok- here is my stance. Ive wasted money in the past on supplements,.... as of yet, trib has done me no wrong.
This was mainly to the study LMD posted stateing that Andro, DHEA and other herbals had no noticable effect on hormone levels. free test..... Not that I hold much stock to one study over the other.
06-02-2006, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by xtraflossy
It depends on age bro. I posted a pretty big thread about it in the forum recently. But you have to look at the ages bro. In younger males you are NOT going to see statistically significant increases unless you are taking 500+mg daily, which is a $hit-ton. It is best if kept to PCT (where our levels mimic those of elderly adults) and for people 40+.
06-02-2006, 03:43 PM
I know- I remember that thread.
The study say "middle-aged" men. That could be a pretty large range though.
It also wasnt JUST the DHEA - the conflicting reports on Andro & Trib also.
These tests kinda remind me of "ANDRO 6" ... remember that stuff???.. Bunch of kids at millitary school were taking it, getting good results... (That is, until they were busted with real anabolic steroids, and for me, thats when this whole "contravercy" started
06-02-2006, 04:38 PM
LOL, I'm about a middle bastage in that category.Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
<-- see over here in my info?
06-02-2006, 11:17 PM
Good thread. I have a product from Syntrax which claims to be a matrix of saponins from various sources (trib, fenugreek, others that I can't recall). I can't link it because none of the board sponsors sell it. Anyone had any experience with blend products like this?
06-02-2006, 11:30 PM
Well, if I'm not mistaken Powerfull is a blend of Saponins with Muira Puama and it is one of the most effective products I have used.
06-02-2006, 11:37 PM
06-02-2006, 11:38 PM
06-02-2006, 11:40 PM
06-02-2006, 11:47 PM
I wish I knew more about plant biology, b/c it would seem the extraction proccess obviously does have a significant impact on performance.Originally Posted by LakeMountD
06-02-2006, 11:55 PM
Effects of anabolic precursors on serum testosterone concentrations and adaptations to resistance training in young men.
Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Reifenrath TA, Uhl NL, Parsons KA, Sharp RL, King DS.
Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011, USA.
The effects of androgen precursors, combined with herbal extracts designed to enhance testosterone formation and reduce conversion of androgens to estrogens was studied in young men. Subjects performed 3 days of resistance training per week for 8 weeks. Each day during Weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8, subjects consumed either placebo (PL; n = 10) or a supplement (ANDRO-6; n = 10), which contained daily doses of 300 mg androstenedione, 150 mg DHEA, 750 mg Tribulus terrestris, 625 mg Chrysin, 300 mg Indole-3-carbinol, and 540 mg Saw palmetto. Serum androstenedione concentrations were higher in ANDRO-6 after 2, 5, and 8 weeks (p <.05), while serum concentrations of free and total testosterone were unchanged in both groups. Serum estradiol was elevated at Weeks 2, 5, and 8 in ANDRO-6 (p <.05), and serum estrone was elevated at Weeks 5 and 8 (p <.05). Muscle strength increased (p <.05) similarly from Weeks 0 to 4, and again from Weeks 4 to 8 in both treatment groups. The acute effect of one third of the daily dose of ANDRO-6 and PL was studied in 10 men (23 +/- 4 years). Serum androstenedione concentrations were elevated (p <.05) in ANDRO-6 from 150 to 360 min after ingestion, while serum free or total testosterone concentrations were unchanged. These data provide evidence that the addition of these herbal extracts to androstenedione does not result in increased serum testosterone concentrations, reduce the estrogenic effect of androstenedione, and does not augment the adaptations to resistance training.
Here's another one showing that neither DHEA or Trib had no additional affect when added to androstenedione
06-02-2006, 11:58 PM
Here are some of the aphrodisiac qualities of TT on rats like Lake was saying. It is interesting that it would increase libido while not showing any increase in serum Test levels.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, Singapore 119704, Singapore.
Tribulus terrestris (TT) has long been used in the traditional Chinese and Indian systems of medicine for the treatment of various ailments and is popularly claimed to improve sexual functions in man. Sexual behaviour and intracavernous pressure (ICP) were studied in both normal and castrated rats to further understand the role of TT containing protodioscin (PTN) as an aphrodisiac. Adult Sprague-Dawley rats were divided into five groups of 8 each that included distilled water treated (normal and castrated), testosterone treated (normal and castrated, 10 mg/kg body weight, subcutaneously, bi-weekly) and TT treated (castrated, 5 mg/kg body weight, orally once daily). Decreases in body weight, prostate weight and ICP were observed among the castrated groups of rats compared to the intact group. There was an overall reduction in the sexual behaviour parameters in the castrated groups of rats as reflected by decrease in mount and intromission frequencies (MF and IF) and increase in mount, intromission, ejaculation latencies (ML, IL, EL) as well as post-ejaculatory interval (PEI). Compared to the castrated control, treatment of castrated rats (with either testosterone or TT extract) showed increase in prostate weight and ICP that were statistically significant. There was also a mild to moderate improvement of the sexual behaviour parameters as evidenced by increase in MF and IF; decrease in ML, IL and PEI. These results were statistically significant. It is concluded that TT extract appears to possess aphrodisiac activity probably due to androgen increasing property of TT (observed in our earlier study on primates).
PMID: 12127159 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Sexual effects of puncturevine (Tribulus terrestris) extract (protodioscin): an evaluation using a rat model.
Gauthaman K, Ganesan AP, Prasad RN.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, Singapore.
OBJECTIVE: Apart from its claims for improvement of sexual functions in men, the puncturevine plant (Tribulus terrestris: TT) has long been considered as an energizer and vitalizer in the indigenous system of medicine. Sexual behavior and intracavernous pressure (ICP) measurements were taken in rats to scientifically validate the claim of TT [containing protodioscin (PTN)] as an aphrodisiac. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Forty sexually mature male Sprague-Dawley rats were randomly divided into four groups of 10 each. Group I served as a control group and groups II, III, and IV were treated with three different doses of TT extract (2.5, 5 and 10 mg/kg body weight, respectively), orally, once daily for 8 weeks. Weight was recorded and the rats from all four groups were subjected to sexual behavior studies with primed females and various parameters namely mount and intromission frequencies (MF and IF, respectively), mount, intromission and ejaculation latencies (ML, IL, and EL, respectively) as well as postejaculatory interval (PEI) were recorded. In addition, blood pressure and ICP were recorded for all rats at the end of study. RESULTS: Increases in body weight (by 9, 23, and 18% for groups II, III & IV) and ICP (by 43% and 26% for groups III and IV) were statistically significant compared to the control group. Increases in MF (by 27% and 24%) and IF (by 19% and 22%) for the groups III and IV were statistically significant. Decreases in ML (by 16%, 23%, and 22% for groups II, III, and IV) and PEI (by 20% for group III) were statistically significant compared to the control. CONCLUSIONS: The weight gain and improvement in sexual behavior parameters observed in rats could be secondary to the androgen increasing property of TT (PTN) that was observed in our earlier study on primates. The increase in ICP which confirms the proerectile aphrodisiac property of TT could possibly be the result of an increase in androgen and subsequent release of nitric oxide from the nerve endings innervating the corpus cavernosum.
06-02-2006, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
This harkens back to LakeMountD's point about all the anecdotal evidence. Perhaps these products do SOMETHING which users experience as increased libido/strength but not through the mechanisms being measured in these studies?
06-03-2006, 12:44 AM
I should say though, I was loggin TT 700 (USP's Trib product) w/ a few other things. And since I discontinued use I have noticed a small drop in libido.
06-03-2006, 03:23 AM
Testosterone isn't the only thing that is linked to libido.
Anecdotal evidence supports trib as somewhat beneficial for some users.
Scientific data doesn't really support a test increase from Trib.
Its relatively cheap though, so you can take it and evaluate for yourself.
To me, its really pointless, with so MANY better, proven options out there for everything trib is supposed to do.
And lest we forget, we wouldn't even be considering trib (which has been around FOREVER) if prohormones weren't banned.
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