GM's quarterly loss widens to $4.8 bln

[MaynardMeek]

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- General Motors Corp. shares fell as much as 7% early Thursday after the world's biggest automaker said its fourth-quarter loss ballooned to nearly $5 billion, with weakness in its North American auto business again slamming the bottom line.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B0CF47473-F0CE-4604-8376-DCDED4B723C5%7D&siteid=google





OUCH!

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

I grew up around mechanics and am a mechanic myself. I will never buy another foreign car no matter what the car salesmen say about honda being the best car. I've never heard a mechanic say that.

 

[Danl4560]

I grew up around mechanics and am a mechanic myself. I will never buy another foreign car no matter what the car salesmen say about honda being the best car. I've never heard a mechanic say that.

Agreed.

 

[Grassroots082]

Honda , Toyota does seem to hold value much better than American cars. Is that just a myth, thats something "that you always hear from them". They also seem to have the least amount of trouble.

 

[Nullifidian]

JD Powers, Consumer Reports, etc. have reliability ratings and/or quality ratings for cars.

Currently Hyundai is number one, followed by Toyota, followed by Honda. These stats have been in place since 2003. Before 2003 however, Hyundai was much lower; i.e. Toyota was number 1 and Honda number 2.

GM still has quality issues compared to many foreign manufacturers. In some of their brands it is particularly abhorrant. IIRC Pontiac is GM. Pontiac has consistantly disgustingly low reliability ratings a large number of serious quality issues. That's just one example.

When will US car manufacturers learn that we are sick of buying cars that break down after 2-3 years?

 

[MaynardMeek]

Ford and GM might merge... keep your eyes out for that

 

[Danl4560]

JD Powers, Consumer Reports, etc. have reliability ratings and/or quality ratings for cars.

Currently Hyundai is number one, followed by Toyota, followed by Honda. These stats have been in place since 2003. Before 2003 however, Hyundai was much lower; i.e. Toyota was number 1 and Honda number 2.

GM still has quality issues compared to many foreign manufacturers. In some of their brands it is particularly abhorrant. IIRC Pontiac is GM. Pontiac has consistantly disgustingly low reliability ratings a large number of serious quality issues. That's just one example.

When will US car manufacturers learn that we are sick of buying cars that break down after 2-3 years?

More like, when will people like you realize American cars don't break down in 2-3 years?

 

[Danl4560]

Ford and GM might merge... keep your eyes out for that

You have a source for that or just hearsay?

 

[kwyckemynd00]

More like, when will people like you realize American cars don't break down in 2-3 years?

When they stop breaking down after 2-3 yrs.

I'm surrounded by mechanics in my friends and family, and they all have their differing opinions.

The one good Ford we've owned was an old ford station wagon, and it had a mitsubish motor in it :lol:

My mom's chevy camaro and dad's chevy 2500 have had problems since day one. My aunt/uncle had an explorer that they had to replace and engine and a transmission within 6 months. My dad had an old piece mitsu truck a few years back, and that thing ran for ages. Unlike his ranger, which was much more reliable than his 2500, but still had its own set of issues.

The only American made car I'd buy is cadillac. The rest of them are made in mexico anyway. Many of the top foreign car manufacturers have their main factories here, in the US...they got it right, why don't the US companies like ford/chevy get it?

Now, dont' get me wrong, this is a pretty recent development. You still see 40yr old chevy trucks runnin' strong all the time.

 

[EEmain]

Honda , Toyota does seem to hold value much better than American cars. Is that just a myth, thats something "that you always hear from them". They also seem to have the least amount of trouble.

That is true. I am presently looking for a Good used Mini van. Have had Grand Caravan, one of the old big jobs, loved it and drove it to death. A Ford Aerostar again put 105,000 miles on it.
Ford Winstar, Junk I tell you, 75,000 engine goes $3400, 90,000 transaxle$1600. Now at 115k guess what another transaxle.

Looking at Honda and Toyota 2003 or up. I can get a 2005 Caravan or Venture or Freestar for less than the 2003`s. At least in my area.

 

[bioman]

I'll be in the market for a truck soon and GM is pretty far down my list of possibilities.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of things about GM trucks..all that power, Bose systems et cetera but I've driven nearly all of the major 4x4's over the years as a field biologist and the GMs just don't last. Fords, IMO, are lot better and Toyota/Nissan (excpet the Frontiers of the last 6 years suck) are even better than that in terms of reliability, cost to operate and durability.

My top three 4x4 picks to look into..Nissan Titan, Toyota Tundra and Ford F150.

Personally, I think most of that "Buy American" car mentality died when most of the Big 3 put all there major operations in Mexico. Those fuckers have no right to question my patriotism if they're not going to follow through.

 

[Pioneer]

and together they shall make twice the amount of crappy cars

saw on the news GM lost $37,000 a MINUTE last quarter. thats someones yearly income, insane.

Ford and GM might merge... keep your eyes out for that

 

[Spartan117]

Hey Bioman, the Titan drives like a tank.

 

[Danl4560]

I'll be in the market for a truck soon and GM is pretty far down my list of possibilities.

Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of things about GM trucks..all that power, Bose systems et cetera but I've driven nearly all of the major 4x4's over the years as a field biologist and the GMs just don't last. Fords, IMO, are lot better and Toyota/Nissan (excpet the Frontiers of the last 6 years suck) are even better than that in terms of reliability, cost to operate and durability.

My top three 4x4 picks to look into..Nissan Titan, Toyota Tundra and Ford F150.

Personally, I think most of that "Buy American" car mentality died when most of the Big 3 put all there major operations in Mexico. Those fuckers have no right to question my patriotism if they're not going to follow through.

By "those fuckers" I hope you mean the factory workers union, not the manufacturers themselves.

 

[Pioneer]

and i hope you people know only the first few units of a foreing car are made in japan. the rest are built in the USA, so technically the "buy American" argument doesn't fully work.

 

[kwyckemynd00]

Personally, I think most of that "Buy American" car mentality died when most of the Big 3 put all there major operations in Mexico. Those fuckers have no right to question my patriotism if they're not going to follow through.

Bingo, and my sentiments exactly!

 

[jcam222]

Personally, I think most of that "Buy American" car mentality died when most of the Big 3 put all there major operations in Mexico. Those fuckers have no right to question my patriotism if they're not going to follow through.

Buy American any more is just an abstract statement. Many of the transplant auto companies build domestically now as well as many of the domestic auto build outside the country. It is all a mish mosh these days. The Big Three have lived fat dumb and happy for many years squeezing suppliers and consumers for every last cent. In times of little competition they got away with it. Times have changed and now they are in trouble. If the Big Three dont improve processes, cut ridiculous labor costs and improve quality they are doomed.

 

[LCSULLA]

I am looking for a new car in the next few months as well and I would look at say a Caddy or a Saab but all of those cars are out of my price range. They said that they were going to lower the prices. Well they lowered it on everything but Hummer and Saab. and the Caddy only a grand or two. They lowered them on Chevy, GMC, Pontiac and Saturn which none of them I would buy.

 

[Bean]

More like, when will people like you realize American cars don't break down in 2-3 years?

Maybe when its not the truth anymore? For right now its DEFINITELY true. American cars are junk as a whole. There are a few great performers out there, but average the whole and its BAD.

Couple the bad reliability with the poor quality materials, options that arrive 2 to 3 years behind every other brand, and now suffering resale value because of this employee pricing for everyone BS; then you've got car companies in real trouble.

I think nearly everyone on GMs board needs to be fired; they need to hire in FRESH and AMBITIOUS people who are under 40 years old with great educations. GM is so out of touch its very funny. Ford is actually doing something right. All the plant closings and job cuts is a great first step. While it sucks so many people lose their jobs; they shouldnt have had half of them in the first place (And nowhere NEAR the paygrade they were working for either -- thank the unions for that too).

There is no BIG THREE anymore either. Ford is 3rd behind Toyota in total vehicle sales, and Chrysler is now part of DaimlerChrysler; no longer an American company. Even tho DC's cars still arent great (Mercedes makes some really shoddy cars themselves in the reliability arena: S and E class both on Consumer Reports most unreliable vehicles list), they have a GREAT lineup through Dodge and Chrysler. I'm totally digging the SRT8 line myself and I'm contemplating a 300 SRT-8

 

[BigVrunga]

GM's situation is a product of their own design and shitty management. Ive owned over 11 cars since I started driving, and the best out of the lot is my 1995 Honda Accord. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I do a lot of my own work on my vehicles - and my Accord and my girlfriend's 1990 Accord are a pleasure to work on and rarely need anything more than routine maitenence.

My 92 Ford Explorer, OTOH, was a royal pain in the ass and cost me more in repair costs then every car I owned combined over the 7 years that I drove it. On top of that, it rusted to hell despite all my attempts to repair the body. I really liked the truck, and the engine was rock-solid, but the whole car fell apart around it.

When will US car manufacturers learn that we are sick of buying cars that break down after 2-3 years?

Precisely. I almost think that, in the 1980's, US auto manufacturers had this cockamamie idea to design cars to fail before their time, in order to generate more sales, and they just cant get out of that slump.

The new cars from Chrysler seem to be doing well - it seems to me their quality has come up as a result of merging with Daimler. Their asthetics sure as hell have...I'd love a Dodge Magnum!

Maybe GM should merge with Toyota

BV

 

[MaynardMeek]

You have a source for that or just hearsay?

just a guess.. no true theory behind it other than both companies did piss poor and they wont be able to play in the car game and keep prices down... sooooo

get ready for the GMFORD Motor Co

 

[BigVrunga]

I cant see them doing that, the competition has been so fierce between those two companies. Maybe GM-Hyundai and Ford-Kia

BV

 

[Danl4560]

I cant see them doing that, the competition has been so fierce between those two companies. Maybe GM-Hyundai and Ford-Kia

BV

Ford is usually coupled with Hyundai, and GM with Geo.

 

[Danl4560]

Couple the bad reliability with the poor quality materials, options that arrive 2 to 3 years behind every other brand,

Examples? Im curious as to why you believe American cars are 2-3 years behind. It sounds to me like your just spewing rhetoric you heard from someone else.

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

When they stop breaking down after 2-3 yrs.

I'm surrounded by mechanics in my friends and family, and they all have their differing opinions.

The one good Ford we've owned was an old ford station wagon, and it had a mitsubish motor in it :lol:

My mom's chevy camaro and dad's chevy 2500 have had problems since day one. My aunt/uncle had an explorer that they had to replace and engine and a transmission within 6 months. My dad had an old piece mitsu truck a few years back, and that thing ran for ages. Unlike his ranger, which was much more reliable than his 2500, but still had its own set of issues.

The only American made car I'd buy is cadillac. The rest of them are made in mexico anyway. Many of the top foreign car manufacturers have their main factories here, in the US...they got it right, why don't the US companies like ford/chevy get it?

Now, dont' get me wrong, this is a pretty recent development. You still see 40yr old chevy trucks runnin' strong all the time.

I will admit, any mechanic knows anything foreign or domestic built in mexico is crap. but the consumer dont mean anything. what do you look for in a car? is it the same as what consumer reorts looks for. I dont care how many cup holders my grand prix has. does it a good drivetrain?

 

[volusia40]

The crappiest car I've ever been associated with is my son's Nissan Frontier truck. POS breaks down every three months or so. I will NEVER own a Nissan product, Besides Nissan is owned by the French Govt. now. My mechanic says Toyota,Honda and Hyundai build the most reliable cars now. He says that GM, Ford and Chrysler all break down too much but did say that Chryslers with manual trannys are bullit proof. As far as Toyota and Honda being built in the U.S. it's not really true because the engines and transmissions are built in Japan and shipped to the U.S. for assembly into the autos. At the current rate of losses GM is expected to be bankrupt in three years and Ford is not far behind. What a sad state of affairs for what used to be the two largest and most profitable companies in the world. Think of what it will do to our economy if these two giants go down the tubes, millions of jobs will be lost throwing our economy into a major recession. Only Chrysler seems to be doing OK, their new product line is pretty cool. Sometimes I think GM is run by idiots. How are the Cobalt and Malibu supposed to compete with the competition. They are probably two of the ugliest new cars on the road. Sad,Sad Sad

 

[MaynardMeek]

i have a dodge stratus RT coupe thinger 2004.. but it is made by mitsubishi (spelling) does very well..

my old pontiac grand am.. oh my god total POS.. broke down every other month because some finigin pin always fell off... 300 bucks a month on repairs

 

[bioman]

Oh the UAW is certainly complicit in the undoing of the Big 3 but if you think the fault is all theirs then you've been sipping too much GOP Koolaide.

The big reason for these companies going down is their mismanangement, lack of overall efficiency and lack of desire to put out truly outstanding products.

Labor costs are a drag but when you compare what's been going on in Japan and Europe over the last 20 years you can see that they too pay some pretty exorbitant labor costs. The Euros are stuck with even higher costs, tighter environmental regulations and all sorts of socialist hoo hah to add to their overhead. Despite all this, companies like VW-Audi kick ass and put out a product that GM could only dream about making for only slightly more than a comparable class.

I have some mechanical experience and I've built cars from the ground up a time or two. Though the quality of American cars has improved since the horrible 70's and 80's, they still fall behind most Euro and Japanese cars on the whole. Even AFTER buying Mazda, Mitsubishi and a slew of other Japanese and Euro makers..the Big 3 still can't seem to meld that higher level of quality into their products. That represents a collosal waste of talent and resources.

The Big 3 have had a long time to play catch up but IMO, they've relied too much on people's sense of loyalty and patriotism. That's a huge mistake because once that guy who's been driving Chevy Cavaliers gets a taste of a VW Passat or Honda Accord, it's all over. I was that guy and I ain't going back to monthly mechanical problems, shoddy interiors and lower tolerances.

 

[BigVrunga]

The Big 3 have had a long time to play catch up but IMO, they've relied too much on people's sense of loyalty and patriotism. That's a huge mistake because once that guy who's been driving Chevy Cavaliers gets a taste of a VW Passat or Honda Accord, it's all over. I was that guy and I ain't going back to monthly mechanical problems, shoddy interiors and lower tolerances.

Hell yea. The interior on my 1984 BMW 325e held up better and had better styling than most US cars Ive driven that were only a few years old.

The sad thing is, Im sure its on the American engineers who are designing crappy cars - its the upper-level management who are obviously completely inept at bringing quality to the consumer.

BV

 

[Danl4560]

Hell yea. The interior on my 1984 BMW 325e held up better and had better styling than most US cars Ive driven that were only a few years old.

The sad thing is, Im sure its on the American engineers who are designing crappy cars - its the upper-level management who are obviously completely inept at bringing quality to the consumer.

BV

As a former BMW mechanic, I speak from experience when I say BMW's are insanely reliable.

 

[Trainforpain]

The only GM product i'd ever buy would be a saturn. I'm recently purchased a 2004 Vue, amazing bang for the buck. Intrestingly enough it has a Honda v6 in it. I couldn't find another car in it's class for less money, I made my choice because my last saturn ran well into the 150,000+ miles before I gave it to my brother. However GM is going to ruin saturn by taking away all of it's innovation, removing the polymer doors, etc. When will GM needs to be more innovative with their designs instead of conformative. I think the biggie in the next couple years will be hybrid cars, currently GM is almost dead last in the race.

 

[pestis]

When they stop breaking down after 2-3 yrs.
The one good Ford we've owned was an old ford station wagon, and it had a mitsubish motor in it :lol:

The only American made car I'd buy is cadillac. The rest of them are made in mexico anyway. Many of the top foreign car manufacturers have their main factories here, in the US...they got it right, why don't the US companies like ford/chevy get it?

Now, dont' get me wrong, this is a pretty recent development. You still see 40yr old chevy trucks runnin' strong all the time.

I've been saying this for a long time. somehow the sheople of this country think it is patriotic to "buy American" , when it comes to autos anyway this is ludicrous. as kwyk said, many on the top foreign auto co.'s manufacture in the USA, employing American workers while the US outsources its auto manufacturing and continues to lay off more and more American workers. the new trend is to cut costs buy hiring Canadian workers so manufacturers dont have to pay for health care. you can thank the current admisitration for that.
It's all about bottom line profits... period!

 

[anabolicengine]

I read an article a while back in a magazine, where they did an investigation into this problem. At the end they pretty much concluded that the upper management and ceo's were more to blame than anything. Years ago these higher ups wrote there own pensions, wages, and incentives for bonuses. They found that when these companies lost money that the higher ups were still pulling in the six figures and getting there bonuses. That doesn't sound like the UAW's fault to me. It looks like the higher ups know there on a sinking ship and are going to milk this company as much as they can before it goes down.

 

[BigVrunga]

As a former BMW mechanic, I speak from experience when I say BMW's are insanely reliable.

Yep. I used to do nearly all the work on my 1979 635Csi and 1984 325e myself. They were both a real pleasure to work on...I remember changing the water pump in the 325 and remarking how well thought-out the design was as I took it apart.

In my 1992 Ford Explorer, however, you had to remove the AC pump just to get to the spark plug for cylinder#6!

My next ride will be a late 90's 540i for sure. The price of gas might be $5/gallon by then though

 

[MaynardMeek]

i just want you guys to know.. you heard it here first... i am going to solve this problem.. i am buying Ford.. yes you heard me.. i am going to buy Ford.. i am totally loaded with money..












sorry i was just bored of this thread i started lol but still post.. i love you all

 

[BMW]

As a former BMW mechanic, I speak from experience when I say BMW's are insanely reliable.

the greatest car company imo ive had 3 beemers and went to toyota now i regret that i switched, i downgraded if you ask me my next car will me my dream either a m3 or m5

 

[Danl4560]

the greatest car company imo ive had 3 beemers and went to toyota now i regret that i switched, i downgraded if you ask me my next car will me my dream either a m3 or m5

I prefer the new M6's. The ride in a 6 series is orgasmic.

 

[BMW]

I prefer the new M6's. The ride in a 6 series is orgasmic.

ooo when are those coming out? my absolute favorite tuner beemer is the Hartge H50 price is way to high for me though

 

[bioman]

Audi A6 Quattro would be my dream car.

My wife and I currently have a VW Passat 1.8 T and love it to death. Getting a used Passat with this platform is an amazing performance value, IMO.

 

[The Experiment]

My family has had nothing but **** experiences with American cars.

My Mom has a Ford Taurus that breaks down on a regular basis. She hates the thing and wants to sell it. So she tries to get some money saved up and then boom, another $400 Taurus repair.

I have an Oldsmobile (13 years old) that has been a money vacuum. My parents bought it for me at $2500 but I've spent around $6000 on repairs with it.

My Dad realized that American cars were indeed **** and bought Japanese for his truck. Not a single problem within the first two years of owning it.

The Big 3 deserve it because they pinched pennies to make their pockets fat with cash. Now they're totally fucked (as if they care).

 

[BigVrunga]

The Big 3 deserve it because they pinched pennies to make their pockets fat with cash. Now they're totally fucked (as if they care).

Yep. They've ruined it for themselves and the image of American quality.

 

[spoolin]

Ford and gm both made marketing mistakes in the past that are hurting them now. They have alwayse focused on larger cars and trucks because the small car market wasnt a very large one. Now that they let honda and toyota take over that market. Gas prices have gone from being 90cents at the time to being 2.50 now. All the people that bought the economical cars are moving up from there civics or carollas to accords and camrys. Whats worse is the truck market that forgin trucks are now entering. The ideas that go into forgin cars seems to far surpass american trucks. The highlander and titan are perfect examples. Gm and ford need to quit careing about who is stealing whos ideas, and take ideas from all the other manufactures and combine them to make their own vehicles. And for the people who say that forgin car companies steal jobs i want to point out the fact that in ohio honda provides more jobs then ford, gm or chrysler. Another the thing that forgin cars have going for them is reliability if anyone in here claims mechanic I would like to hear your honest opinion. I know i work at a parts retail store for cars and 90 percent of the replacement parts i sell are for american cars.

 

[BigCasino]

the greatest car company imo ive had 3 beemers and went to toyota now i regret that i switched, i downgraded if you ask me my next car will me my dream either a m3 or m5

I agree with you guys that BMWs are fantastic cars. Personally, my E39 540i is hands down the best car I have ever owned. Aside from me, several of my family members own BMWs as well, and they have all been outstandingly reliable. We've got a 2001 740i, a 1999 M3, and a year or two ago my mother got a 745i. They're all great cars, the physical mechanics / design have been very sturdy. However, I will say that the 745i has had several computer software issues lately, not so much the car, but the software that controls it. I'm sorry to hear you are not enjoying your Toyota though. While I will agree that in general they are not as "sporty" as most of the BMW line up, they are solid reliable vehicles. I also own a 2000 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 and that thing has been basically bullet proof in terms of reliability.

 

[BigVrunga]

I agree with you guys that BMWs are fantastic cars. Personally, my E39 540i is hands down the best car I have ever owned.

That's my next ride...:thumbsup:

 

[BioHazzard]

Maybe GM should merge with Toyota..

that would probably make a lot more sense than merging with Ford...