[Whiskey Steve]

Originally Posted by jomi822

half of the people responding in this thread are cops and it seems the bottom line from their point of view is "do what i say and i wont hurt you". i personally think that 90% of cops are high school bullies aged 20 or 30 years with severe inferiority complexes due to both professional and personal interaction with cops.

this isnt a police state? it doesnt matter what rights you think you have a cop does whatever he wants and fills out a doctored police report to make it legal. cops will find a way to make you do whatever they want whenever they want and they are covered by all of their buds in the legal system, the corruption makes me sick. i feel less safe around cops than around people i know have committed crimes

I feel the same way most of the time....

except i once saw a man shot and killed outside a club and i was so thankful there where cops around.

[Whiskey Steve]

Originally Posted by Jack of Shadows

Nah...it is not reality unless people make it so by saying "Shut up and do what you're told and you won't be mistreated".

Yea...a cop that size really had to taze a 67 year-old grandma if she wouldn't listen. She might have kicked his ass after all. No, really, she should just do as she's told. Of course, not everyone is lucid all the time and knows how to do that. Watch this video...that women is elderly and is not all there. She could have been handled differently...she is not 6'6" and 250, she posed no physical threat. It is NOT acceptable practice to use unnecessary force in a case like this. Minimal force necessary is sufficient...not like she was running up the aisle in an airplane yelling about having a bomb or something like that. Law enforcement people need to know how to deal with this in better ways than to taze someone - and they really do.

That means this guy chose to be a prick and if he had to go to that extreme measure, then he needs to hang up the badge and grap a stop sign and an orange vest and head on down to the school crossing...

In reguards to the air line thing.....
Most of the witnesses say that the man never said bomb.
He was bypolar and was scared as **** of flying, finally the fear built up enough that he paniced and ran off the plane.
He was on his way home from preaching the gospel with his wife for crying out loud(cant remember where).

At first when i heard this story i was like "man what a **** head, thats cool that they shot him."
and now i feel so sorry for his family and think there should be some sever penalties for the jack holes that shot him. He already went thourgh the security check

[brogers]

Just keep in mind that the grandmother (And anyone who is arrested) is innocent until proven guilty in court.

[Jack of Shadows]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve

In reguards to the air line thing.....
Most of the witnesses say that the man never said bomb.
He was bypolar and was scared as **** of flying, finally the fear built up enough that he paniced and ran off the plane.
He was on his way home from preaching the gospel with his wife for crying out loud(cant remember where).

At first when i heard this story i was like "man what a **** head, thats cool that they shot him."
and now i feel so sorry for his family and think there should be some sever penalties for the jack holes that shot him. He already went thourgh the security check

My point exactly.

In her case, she is elderly and the tape shows she is likely not all there. Hence, expecting her to "Do the right thing" and understand the implications of her actions is simplistic and not realistic. Hell, she already showed she did not understand that by virute of the behavior that got her brought to the station. She did not likely understand what was happening or why she was there. There was no conceivable way she was a threat to anyone there - and that is when such force is authorized, not to enforce obedience or punish disobedience. I hope some of the short-sighted "Just follow the rules" folks come back when their defenseless demented confused grandma gets zapped.

It is false to sugges that the choice was to let her walk or taze her to stop her. I have worked in inpatient psychiatric units and had to physically control truly violent patients. We never had to taze them to do so - if I had I would be in jail - and never broke anyone's arm or wrist either. It has to do with knowing about mental illness and the effects of mental status on behavior - and not acting simply because you need to be "in charge".

In the airline situation, at least they could make the case, however bogus it may turn out to be, that the guy was a threat (good point that he had already passed through security). And witnesses seem to be contradicting most of the air marshals' statements. Hopefully truth will come to light and it will make a difference. But in grandma's case one cannot even make that specious argument.

[wastedwhiteboy2]

she was trying to leave without permission while being detained. She was a threat to the granddaughter. If she had been allowed to leave there could have been someone in danger, again. tazers are used to enforce obedience! Tazers are safer than physically trying to control someone. Police need to be in charge. Some people just hate police and nothing will change their mind.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by wastedwhiteboy2

she was trying to leave without permission while being detained. She was a threat to the granddaughter. If she had been allowed to leave there could have been someone in danger, again. tazers are used to enforce obedience! Tazers are safer than physically trying to control someone. Police need to be in charge. Some people just hate police and nothing will change their mind.

Exactly....unfortunately, all people see is her age and her "oh so grandmotherly appearance."

Was it necessary? No. Would I have done it personally? No. But, the cop probably would have gotten in more trouble dragging her back than he would for tasing her, based off of policy anyway.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve

....
At first when i heard this story i was like "man what a **** head, thats cool that they shot him."
and now i feel so sorry for his family and think there should be some sever penalties for the jack holes that shot him. He already went thourgh the security check

Then the media accomplished their objective

Honestly, "most" said they did'nt hear him say bomb, but that means some did. There were probably people viewing this from hundreds of yards away and through barriers!

He said bomb, he ran, and then he reachd for the bag his make-believe bomb was in.

Dumb move = dead as a door-nail and there is nothing wrong with what the cop did. I DOUBT he wanted to kill someone, come one! Think about it for a minute. He thought he had to! Based off of what he knew, he did the right thing.

[Whiskey Steve]

Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

Then the media accomplished their objective

Honestly, "most" said they did'nt hear him say bomb, but that means some did. There were probably people viewing this from hundreds of yards away and through barriers!

He said bomb, he ran, and then he reachd for the bag his make-believe bomb was in.

Dumb move = dead as a door-nail and there is nothing wrong with what the cop did. I DOUBT he wanted to kill someone, come one! Think about it for a minute. He thought he had to! Based off of what he knew, he did the right thing.

I dont know what I would have done personally...... I have heard that the witnesses who say that the man cried bomb only started professing this after they were interviewed by police(of whoever was handling this). The only testimonies I have heard from the people who now say he cried bomb go something like this: "uh, so i guess he yelled bomb and then ran up the isle and off the plane and then they shot em."

And, or......Now we have to try to understand that there had to have been a lot of "the telephone game" going on..... It only takes is ONE passenger to say "i think he had a bomb." At this point what that one passenger said gets passed on as fact; then its manipulated and exagerated and everyone thinks the man was Dr. Evil himself. I would bet that ALL of us would run with the bomb excuse excuse if we were the men that shot him. Why would you say "well, he really didnt say bomb. people just made that up" when you have a chance at freedom. Personally if this is what happened and I was the one that shot him I would hide behind this story. Punishment is not in this lifetime; In my beliefs no one really has the right to punish me. I am only accountable to God. Thats why I try my hardest to not sin at all (in public or private). A man spending life in prison for murdering someone to protect many others lives(or at least he thinks) is just plain useless. Why do we have to be so damn "eye for an eye" all the time. I retract what i said earlier when i said "i hope these men have some seveir penaties." I think they genuinly thought they were doing good. And i think this man was no threat to others and never intended to scare anyone.

As far as the man reaching into his bag. I cant stress enough he was bypolar and off his medication. He is afraid the plane is going to blow up because he has heard about 911 and people with mental dissorders are easily haunted with fear. So he is running off the plane that he now thinks is full of terrorists and there are men with guns screaming at him and chasing him. I am conviced that he was only reaching for a phone to call his wife (the one person there who he felt safe with).


I might add that at the end of your post you said this man made a "dumb move." OF COURSE HE MADE A DUMB MOVE; HE HAS A MENTAL HANDICAP (kwyck this is no attack at you im just trying to get people to judge this all with the understanding that he was not mentally healthy)

[Whiskey Steve]

Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

I never said "I" would tase anyone.
Being called into the police stating for beating your granddaughter and then walking out despite the officers plea's is a STUPID thing to do and is not in the same ballpark as a man with a mustache kissing a woman in public.

No, he didn't need to tase her. No, I wouldnt' have tased her. But, was she an idiot for doing what she did? Yes.

If we can't define right absolutely, then its awefully hard to define wrong isn't it? So, how are we to say his actions were "wrong"? (I personally disagree with tasing her, but that's a non-issue IMO. Its not about "what I would have done" is it? And, to the same token, its not about what you would have done.
Again, that's a stupid comparison.

Now, what would our nation be like if we all lived by those rules? Lets not be ridiculous here.
Assuming you believe you will be judged in the end.

This bring me to a point. Who is to say the laws laid down by God are any more right?

Telling Abraham to sacrifice his son, and then basically saying" just kidding" right before he killed his son isn't right. Releasing plagues upon the earth and killing egypts first born isn't right because many innocent non-offending people died in the process, including young babies.

Then, do people of faith line their beliefs up with their creators out of love or fear? Are they afraid to go to hell or do they love the entity they've never met or had contact with?

Another reason that your silly notion of "do what you feel is right" is the wrong thing for a diverse society.

Yep
I agree that their values tend to be a little more sane.

Buddhist values are also very reasonable, probably the most reasonable.

Then I agree with you here.
Of course its not always right to do what we're told. but, put into context, the old lady deserved a tase just as much as a young guy who did the same would. And, don't you think they would have tased a young guy who was brought to the station for questioning and refused to stay? They would have probably locked him up, too! And, rightfully so. If our society is to function, we need to cooperate.


I agree with do what is right, but you also have to consider the consequences of your actions and weigh that with your values.

Now, if you don't "wan't" to wait in the police station for beating your granddaughter and decide to leave, disobeying the orders of the officer, don't you think it would be in your best interest to avoid doing what you "want"? I'm sure she didn't "believe" she shoudl be there. Obviously she had no moral issue with hitting her granddaughter, so of course she didn't belong there in her opinion, did she?

You're right, its not so simple...

There is a lot to work with here.

Do you claim to have a perfect knowledge of God's plan? I guess you think you can get inside God's head and find all his mistakes huh.
Let me fill you in, GOD MAKES NO MISTAKES. Everything that has happened in the history of this earth was allowed by God. We do not have real justice in this life. We get it at judgement day(see the correlation judgement=justice). "....and he saw that it was good."
God did what he did with Abraham to test his faith....he would not allow Isac to be killed and you know that.
(the way you are presenting your argument it sounds like you believe in God and that you think he is a fool)


If your brother says something disrespectful to you you give him a dead arm. If an elderly woman says something disrespectful to you and you give here a dead arm it will break it. Dont even try to argue this "letter of the law" bullshit. We all know damn well that tasing an elderly woman five times is in no feasible circumstance acceptable or remotely reasonable.

[kwyckemynd00]

You don't know Gods plan any more than I do, and you know just as much about God as anyone else does and no more, so you can't tell me he makes no mistakes. If he made mistakes, why would we be sinners in the first place--unless its some sort of game to send us to hell. Not a very nice thing to do to His "beloved creations" that were "made in His image".

My point is, there may be a God, and I personally believe there is, but the Bible sure doesn't pain a picture of a God I could appreciate.

I don't believe that God IS a fool, I think that the God represented in the bible is a JERK. Now, IMO, that's NOT GOD. That's something a human/humans wrote who claimed to be representative of God.

Now, maybe the officer did it to be a jerk, maybe he was an idiot, and maybe he was scared he break her hip if he tried to manhandle her and he was ORDERED to keep her there. We dont' know the details....all I know is that she was stupid to do what she did and I dont' think age alone is an excuse for stupid actions.

Again, I personally wouldnt have done it, but that doesn't matter.

[MarcusG]

About the airplane bomb shooting, witnesses said that police were aggressively trying to get them to remember if the dead man said anything about a bomb. It smacks of a cover-up of a jumpy air-cop.

Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve

........
If your brother says something disrespectful to you you give him a dead arm. If an elderly woman says something disrespectful to you and you give here a dead arm it will break it. Dont even try to argue this "letter of the law" bullshit. We all know damn well that tasing an elderly woman five times is in no feasible circumstance acceptable or remotely reasonable.

You said it right. If one or 2 tasers didn't work then officers could have just manhandled her instead of shooting more tasers and possibly giving her a heart attack. She's an tottering old woman in a police station for goodness sakes. It sound like it like taser were used in a malicious manner as a torture device.

But I suppose there is a chance that the taser(s) were defective and she didn't seem to be in too much pain so they just kept tasing her.

Edit: lol The news said that the officer tasered her repeatedly because she failed to comply with his order to get up after getting tasered the first time and had to be taken to the hospital after the incident.

[Whiskey Steve]

Okay people. Wake up!!!!!
Ill make another similar analogy. I just graduated high school. I remember towards the end of the year I was standing in the halls and a handicapped boy punched me in the mouth....hard!
It knocked some of my teeth a little loose and my cheek was cut badly on the inside and bleed for quite a while. Did I do one thing back to this boy? NO. Would it ever even cross my mind? NO. (by some of the **** you guys are posting i am scared that you would have handled this differently)

If a "young healthy guy" (this converse you keep bringing up) punched one of you in the mouth I know you would hit him back. And therefore with the arguments you guys keep making i guess you would feel like you were doing the right thing if you ****ed up a handicapped kid for hitting you.
___
Both of these people were unstable and as such deserve different treatment than stable people. End of Story! (the police made a mistake now stop trying to justify it!)

[Whiskey Steve]

kwyckemynd00, lets drop the religious thing.....your are intitled to your beliefs and we are intitled to ours. Do not make derogatory comments about the God that the Bible teaches of. And with that lets have enough respect for each other to leave that out of this.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve

Okay people. Wake up!!!!!
Ill make another similar analogy. I just graduated high school. I remember towards the end of the year I was standing in the halls and a handicapped boy punched me in the mouth....hard!
It knocked some of my teeth a little loose and my cheek was cut badly on the inside and bleed for quite a while. Did I do one thing back to this boy? NO. Would it ever even cross my mind? NO.

You're trying to compare a mentally handicapped kid who may or may not have an understanding of the difference between right and wrong to and elderly lady who made the decesion to do something that she knew was against the law "just because"?

That's not a very good analogy.

Being elderly is not similar to being mentally handicapped. (Unless stricken by disease that often affect the elderly, but that should be a given, we're talking about a mentally fully functional person here).

Now, if the handicapped kid you speak of was totally normal but was just missing a leg and he hit me for no reason, I'd kick out his one good leg. The point is, you know better.

If you don't know better, then that's an entirely different story.

Aside from that, I believe I personally, and everyone else i've seen post, has said that they would not have done the same thing as the officer. Just that we're not going to flip a tit because an arrogant old bitchy woman decided to consciously disobey the law when she was brought into the station for beating her granddaughter.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve

kwyckemynd00, lets drop the religious thing.....your are intitled to your beliefs and we are intitled to ours. Do not make derogatory comments about the God that the Bible teaches of. And with that lets have enough respect for each other to leave that out of this.

I didn't make any derrogatory comments about either you or God.

I've said nothing (that I can see or remember) on a personal level to anyone in this debate.

And, regarding God, I just said that IMO the God represented in the bible is not the God I personally believe in. To be more precise, SOME of his actions that were "recorded" in the bible do not strike my as actions by a loving, all knowing, and perfect God. All I'm saying is that God is a good guy

I'm saying that, AND, God is not a good standard for anything in a debate where people have different religious beliefs. Same goes for society. We've all got different beliefs, and we should respect them (unlike some of these pricks trying to remove christmas from the American public life), so lets not lawful decisions based off of what God would prescribe.

[Whiskey Steve]

Has it been confirmed that she really even did hit the grand daughter. We should really not make judgements until we hear the whole story.....and not even then is my opinion. But right now we know that the cop used EXCESSIVE force.

And i think thats messed up that you would hit a kid back with any defect. Or any kid at all for that matter. Lets stop this eye for an eye bullshit before we are all blind.
Any one who takes pleasure in or feels good seeing others in pain or discomfort is a sick bastard. Just turn the other cheek and let it go.