Steroids Are Blamed in Suicide of Young Athlete

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    Steroids Are Blamed in Suicide of Young Athlete


    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/10/sp...=all&position=

    Steroids Are Blamed in Suicide of Young Athlete

    <nyt_byline version="1.0" type=" "> By DUFF WILSON
    </nyt_byline> <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td>
    </td></tr> </tbody> </table> <nyt_text> </nyt_text> ACAVILLE, Calif. - Brenda Marrero came upon her son Efrain surfing the Internet one day last October. When Efrain hid what was on the screen, she asked what he had been looking at. He turned and said he wanted to tell her something: He was using steroids.

    She called her husband, Frank, and they told Efrain he needed to stop, because steroids are dangerous.

    "But Barry Bonds does it," his parents remember Efrain saying.

    "That doesn't make it right," his father responded.

    To please his parents, Efrain retrieved a dozen pink pills, a vial of liquid and two syringes. His mother flushed the pills and kept the vial. Efrain, who played football, promised to stop using steroids. It was a promise that no one doubts he kept.

    Three and a half weeks later, Mrs. Marrero found Efrain in a bedroom at home, a bullet in his head, a .22-caliber pistol in his hand. He left no explanation for his suicide. He had no history of depression or mental illness. He was 19.

    "We didn't see it coming," Mrs. Marrero said, crying. "We were absolutely devastated."

    Not until weeks later did the Marreros learn that their son had been surrounded by steroids; his sister's boyfriend, co-workers at the mall and other weight lifters at his gym used steroids. And when Efrain went off to the College of the Siskiyous, he joined a football team in which a number of players were using steroids, three former teammates said.

    And not until they learned what steroid withdrawal can do to a teenager's hormones did the Marreros find a plausible explanation for Efrain's suicide: the family, their doctor and their friends think that Efrain fell into an abyss from having suddenly stopped using steroids.

    Two previous suicides had been attributed by parents to steroid use by young athletes: Rob Garibaldi, 24, of Petaluma, Calif., in 2002, and Taylor Hooton, 17, of Plano, Tex., in 2003. The athletes, both baseball players, died shortly after they stopped using steroids.

    At a time of increasing concern about the use of steroids by young athletes and the long-term health risks associated with the drugs, the three suicides, while extreme, have underscored for many medical experts the short-term risks linked to withdrawal from steroids.

    Donald Hooton Sr., Taylor's father, is scheduled to be among the witnesses discussing steroid use by teenagers at a hearing today of Congressional health and consumer protection subcommittees. Mr. Hooton and Mr. Garibaldi's parents have also been invited to testify on baseball's steroids policy before the House Committee on Government Reform on March 17, and the Marreros said they planned to attend.

    Many medical experts suspect that other teenage suicides have been connected to the cessation of steroid use, because adolescents are especially vulnerable to hormonal swings. But the link has not been proved. For ethical reasons, researchers cannot design a medical study that would try to induce depression in someone using a steroid by taking him off the drug.

    Medical experts said, however, that there is persuasive anecdotal evidence and a reasonable biological explanation for a connection. When someone takes steroids, the body suppresses its natural production of testosterone. After a person stops, it takes weeks or months to produce normal levels again, leaving some but not all people vulnerable to profound mood changes.

    "Efrain stopped, just like we asked him to," Mrs. Marrero said. "And I believe he spiraled into a severe depression. We didn't know this at the time, but we're finding out the thing to do is not go off them cold turkey like that. And I believe that is what happened: steroids killed my son."

    Mr. Marrero's suicide occurred in a region where the steroids scandal involving the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative has dominated news coverage for more than a year. In San Francisco, about 50 miles southwest of Vacaville, federal prosecutors are preparing to go to trial in the Balco case, in which four men, including Barry Bonds's personal trainer, have been charged with conspiracy to distribute steroids.

    And in Sacramento, 35 miles east of Vacaville, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has admitted that he used steroids during his long career as a bodybuilder. Mr. Schwarzengger says young people should never take steroids, but he has been fighting with the Legislature over whether high schools should be encouraged to ban the use of legal substances like creatine that are suspected of having performance-enhancing effects.

    'That Stuff Is Everywhere'

    The Marreros moved to this clean, friendly town when Efrain was 10 years old. Frank Marrero is a pilot for United Airlines based in San Francisco and a colonel in the Air Force Reserve. The family picked Vacaville for the quality of life and the schools. "Everything we ever did," he said, "we did for our kids."

    Efrain Marrero lived with his father, mother, a younger sister and baby brother in a four-bedroom house with vaulted ceilings. Together, they ate meals, played in the backyard near the pool, attended church and took vacations.

    He turned 14 the year Mark McGwire hit 70 home runs, and pretty soon he asked his parents if he could use creatine, an amino acid that helps build muscle mass. Creatine, he observed, was sold in health food stores. And a lot of teenagers used it. But his parents said no.

    Mr. Marrero, who was always one of the biggest boys in his class, grew to be 6 feet 1 inch and 270 pounds. He played offensive line for four years at Vacaville High School.

    Daniel Shirar, a friend and fellow lineman on the high school team, said he thought Mr. Marrero had tried creatine. "But he wasn't on it constantly, like I was," Mr. Shirar said.

    Mr. Marrero also talked to his friends about androstenedione, a steroid precursor used by McGwire. "He said it's a legal steroid you can buy, and you rub it on and it makes your fat go away," said Rob Cullinan, Mr. Marrero's best friend. "He was always big and fast, but he always wanted an edge."

    Mr. Marrero also talked about steroids with Erik Svendsen, the boyfriend of his sister, Erika. Mr. Svendsen said in an interview that he had injected himself with steroids to bulk up for football his senior year at Vacaville High School.

    Mr. Svendsen said that he had sold some veterinary steroids from Mexico to Mr. Marrero about two years ago, but that he thought Mr. Marrero had sold them to someone else.

    Mr. Svendsen talked about this, he said, to help the grieving Marrero family understand what had happened. "I could say I didn't, but anything I can do to help them, I will," he said. "They are a wonderful, wonderful family. Big-hearted people."

    Shown a picture of the vial of liquid that Mr. Marrero had given to his parents, Mr. Svendsen said it contained about 8 milliliters, or about two weeks of usage. The Olympic Analytical Laboratory at U.C.L.A. tested the contents of the vial for The New York Times; it contained methandienone, a powerful steroid that is also known as dianabol.

    "That stuff is everywhere here," Mr. Svendsen said. "It's pretty easy to get if you know the right people at the gym and stuff. You can pretty much look at people and know who to talk to."

    Dan Garcia, a bodybuilder, sold steroids for about two years to a network of people at Gold's Gym, Solano Community College and other places in the Vacaville area. He was arrested in 2001 for selling drugs, pleaded guilty and served about six months in jail. Mr. Garcia said in interviews that he had not known Mr. Marrero, but that Mr. Marrero would have had no trouble finding steroids in Vacaville.

    Mr. Svendsen said that despite having sold steroids to Mr. Marrero, he had not known that Mr. Marrero was using the drugs until Mr. Marrero died. And he said he had never seen an unlabeled vial like the one Mr. Marrero gave to his parents.

    "They're all labeled," Mr. Svendsen said. "Anyone who would buy a bottle like that wouldn't know what they were getting."

    After Mr. Marrero's death, his sister, who is captain of the cheerleading squad at Vacaville High, broke up with Mr. Svendsen, her boyfriend of two years.

    "I couldn't forgive him, because I thought he had some contribution to it," Erika Marrero said. Four months after her brother's suicide, she wipes tears from her eyes. "It's hard. You start to realize he's really gone."

    Plenty of Company

    "I don't think we have a problem here," said Ed Santopadre, the football coach at Vacaville High, "but you know, I'd be the last to know. They'd try to keep it from me."

    Mr. Santopadre said he was perplexed by Mr. Marrero's use of steroids, describing him as a nice young man and a talented player.

    "He was quick, big, strong and hit like a truck," Mr. Santopadre said. "Why? That's what I don't understand. Why? He didn't need them."

    Mr. Marrero was recruited to play football in 2002 at the College of the Siskiyous, a two-year college in a small town 250 miles north of Vacaville. He joined a family friend, Casey Lee, who was a receiver and co-captain of the Siskiyous Eagles. Casey is the son of Mike Lee, who had coached Mr. Marrero in Pop Warner football, and Cathy Lee, who is Brenda Marrero's best friend.

    The Siskiyous football program was awash in steroids, former players said.

    "I don't want to badmouth my school, but there were at least a dozen people I know of who were on steroids," Casey Lee said.

    Mr. Marrero hurt his knee and did not play his freshman year, but he stayed on the roster and attended practices.

    Mr. Lee said at least 10 players had been injecting steroids and were open about it. "To the point where they were driving all the way from Northern California to Mexico to get it and then sell it," he said. "It was in-your-face. It was easy to get. It was not looked on as a big deal. Coaches didn't see it. I don't know if they wanted to or not."

    Matt Ledbetter, another co-captain, said: "I personally knew of seven or eight people that were doing it. At a drop of the hat, you could get it from any of them."

    The players said athletes at junior colleges, like those in high schools, are well aware that they will not be tested for steroids. Henry Ochs, a lineman at Siskiyous, said some players had taken steroids during the summer to bulk up. "I wouldn't say a lot," Mr. Ochs said. "I'd probably say 8 or 9 people in a 70-person team used them."

    Dennis Roberts, the athletic director at Siskiyous who was the head football coach when Mr. Marrero was there, said he was "really, really surprised" to hear what former players had to say about steroids.

    "It seems like somehow the coaching staff would have known about it," he said. Mr. Roberts said the college tests athletes for recreational drugs, but not for steroids, because of the additional cost. "If we suspected something, we would not let it go," he said, adding that Mr. Lee and Mr. Ledbetter, the former co-captains, were extremely credible. "They wouldn't make up anything that didn't really happen," he said.

    Clues Begin to Emerge

    Mr. Marrero left the college after one year, telling friends it was too remote. He lived with his family, worked at several local stores and enrolled at Solano Community College, near home.

    He could not play football because of poor grades, but he hit the gym and planned to play the following year. He talked about his competition being bigger than ever. By then, his friends were certain he was taking steroids.

    "He showed me what he was taking, and it was a lot more than anybody else," Kenny Groen, a friend from Vacaville, said.

    When he confessed to his parents, Mr. Marrero said he had been taking steroids for six months, but his parents and friends think it was longer than that, perhaps years. They had seen a change in his physique - less fat, more muscle - and he had started wearing tighter clothes. His parents noticed mood swings, too, but they chalked it up to adolescence.

    At one point, Mrs. Marrero confronted her son. "I said, 'Are you on steroids?' " she said. "He said, 'No, Mom.' Then he looked at me and said, 'Mom, why would you even ask me that?' I said, 'You're getting so big.' He said, 'That's what happens when you go to the gym every day. You get big when you work out.' "

    Early last fall, Mr. Marrero told his mother he was feeling a little paranoid; he thought people were staring at him, laughing at him.

    "I told him he was just looking really good," Mrs. Marrero said. "But like I told Frank, now I think I was just feeding the addiction to steroids."

    Help Proves Elusive

    Experienced users sometimes take fertility drugs at the end of their cycles of steroids to jumpstart their natural production of testosterone and avoid the psychological crash that can accompany the cessation of steroid use.

    "You're left with very low testosterone levels, which can affect the chemicals in the brain, which control mood, and these people can very often become very depressed and suicidal," said Dr. Edward L. Klaiber of Worcester, Mass., a leading researcher and endocrinologist. "I've had a number of steroid-using adolescents who have expressed suicidal thoughts."

    Dr. Kurt J. Brower, a steroids expert with the Department of Psychiatry and the Addiction Research Center at the University of Michigan, said, "The time of highest risk is 3 to 12 weeks after withdrawal."

    Rick Collins of Carle Place, N.Y., a lawyer who defends people accused of selling or using steroids, said he had known hundreds of users and that none had committed suicide. "It's certainly not the typical result of steroid use, and to present it as such is disingenuous," he said.

    Frank Marrero had consulted the family's longtime physician, Dr. Robert A. Varady, about Efrain. Dr. Varady assured him that the steroids would gradually leave Efrain's system, and he recommended counseling.

    "So I thought, O.K., we talked to the doctor," Mrs. Marrero said. "We tried to do everything right."

    Dr. Varady said in an interview that he had not known what dose Mr. Marrero had been taking. He said he knew that stopping a high dose of steroids could result in deep depression. "But I'm definitely not on the cutting edge of bodybuilding abuse of steroids," Dr. Varady added.

    Mrs. Marrero responded, "If you don't know, say you don't know and you will find out, because you're a doctor."

    Mr. Marrero had set up a counseling session at his parents' urging. He never made it. He shot himself the day before.

    "It's really such a shocker," Cathy Lee, Mrs. Marrero's friend, said. "Knowing Efrain, he was so caring, that's why I know something in his mind was altered. He just wouldn't have done that to his family, caused that kind of pain."

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    What a ****ing joke.

    Once again, blame is placed on something when personal responsibility has zero blame.

    19 and using gear. Condonening its' use by saying Barry Bonds does it. If this kid didn't whack himself I'm sure something about have got to him later on.
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    dude, have some compassion. Someone's kid is dead.
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    compassion for what?

    He's dead and that's ashame but he's dead because of his own ignorance. I'm not trying to be a dick but if we'd start teaching personal responsibility then these things might not happen.

    If he had of been using coke, would the same reaction/attention be given? Would we try to have compassion or says "That's too bad but it's his own stupid fault"?

    I dunno. Maybe I'm just tired of seeing the blame placed on things where blame doesn't belong in my opinion.
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    Have compassion for who? The kid is already dead and your compassion won't help him. The parents are useless and deserve their pain and suffering. I have no compassion for people who do a poor job raising their kids and then blame it on something or someone else. I just wish they could have died and the kid could have lived. It's a parents job to raise a kid and give him the tools to deal with reality. If they fail it's almost always the parents fault and not the kids. Parenting in America is a joke. I don't mean they have to control every aspect of his life or anything, they just need to help him and be interested enough in his life to realize when something is going wrong. If their kid felt close enough and like he could go to his parents without judgement for help, he'd probably still be alive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foster
    Have compassion for who? The kid is already dead and your compassion won't help him. The parents are useless and deserve their pain and suffering. I have no compassion for people who do a poor job raising their kids and then blame it on something or someone else. I just wish they could have died and the kid could have lived. It's a parents job to raise a kid and give him the tools to deal with reality. If they fail it's almost always the parents fault and not the kids. Parenting in America is a joke. I don't mean they have to control every aspect of his life or anything, they just need to help him and be interested enough in his life to realize when something is going wrong. If their kid felt close enough and like he could go to his parents without judgement for help, he'd probably still be alive.
    Well you post ought to get me out of the hot seat LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foster
    Parenting in America is a joke. I don't mean they have to control every aspect of his life or anything, they just need to help him and be interested enough in his life to realize when something is going wrong. If their kid felt close enough and like he could go to his parents without judgement for help, he'd probably still be alive.
    Well said.

    Sad.
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    "But Barry Bonds does it," his parents remember Efrain saying.

    "That doesn't make it right," his father responded.
    This doesn't even sound real. If this isn't made up, somebody pinch me. Is there anybody this ****ing stupid on the planet?
    "Efrain stopped, just like we asked him to," Mrs. Marrero said. "And I believe he spiraled into a severe depression. We didn't know this at the time, but we're finding out the thing to do is not go off them cold turkey like that. And I believe that is what happened: steroids killed my son."
    No, your dumb ass son commited suicide. Thank you Darwin!

    Forgive me for my lack of sympathy, but anytime a mornon kills themselves, I don't feel sorry for them (unless they're in a Nazi deathcamp or forced into slavery, of course.).

    ****ing ridiculous.

    Rick Collins of Carle Place, N.Y., a lawyer who defends people accused of selling or using steroids, said he had known hundreds of users and that none had committed suicide. "It's certainly not the typical result of steroid use, and to present it as such is disingenuous," he said.
    This just made me laugh for some odd reason.
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    LOL. I made my post and a few other ppl had similar posts at the same time Now I don't feel like sucks a dick...thanks guys!
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    Yup, I with you guys...stinkin parents and the blame game...cause they or their son can't be held responsible for their actions...might as well blame today's current evil...steroids. Who know what else will be blamed on steroids!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jverch
    Yup, I with you guys...stinkin parents and the blame game...cause they or their son can't be held responsible for their actions...might as well blame today's current evil...steroids. Who know what else will be blamed on steroids!
    What happened to the good 'ol days when they just blamed Marily Manson? lolol...People are ****ing stupid.
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    Yes, the parents are stupid for blaming steroids, but what do they know? The media bombards them with this idea that steroids cause suicide. Even the article says it's unproven and implies that post-cycle lack of test might lead to depression. If true, nolva might have saved his life.

    If the parents deserve blame, it's probably for not helping their son deal with whatever led him to suicide and AAS usage at that age in the first place.

    And yes I do feel awful sympathy for the poor kid and his parents. Stupid people don't deserve death for simply being stupid.
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    sympathy for all ! ok now that that is out of the way first off he was to young second hewas already from his picture overweight,so he didnt need dball...there could have been any number of reasons that kid killed himself like maybe he found out he was gay, found out he didnt make the team, his girl[if he had one] called him a fat slob and broke up with him.
    well where did he get the gun maybe his parent are covering up for leaveing a loaded firearm around the house....all of this could depress anybody at that age to get drunk and to kill themself. btw as far as i thought barry bonds denied useing steroids.
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    The reason people have little sympathy is because it's too late for it to matter to the kid and the parents don't deserve it except in the mildest sense. One, they could have called a doctor and asked about potential side effects. That's first thing I would have done had a kid of mine been using anything I wasn't familiar with or considered dangerous or poirsonous for him. Two, less than five minutes of research on the Internet could have turned up depression as a potential side effect of cessation of use. Steroids didn't kill the kid, he killed himself. As to why, improper use of steroids may have contributed to his suicide, but usually people don't off themselves based simply on what happens over a matter of a couple weeks.

    If his parents had found a Big Mac wrapper in his room they'd be suing McDonalds for their son's suicide. Their own lack of effort and attention was the major contributing factor. But in America today don't ever try and tell someone that the things in their lives that aren't working out are their own fault. Blame it on Ephedra, blame it on 'roids, blame it on marijuana. Blame it on the gun that jumped up on its own and killed someone. Blame it on the knife that slit someone's wrists on its own. Blame it on the fatty food that you had no choice but to eat. Blame it on the tons of alcohol that poured itself down your throat one night. Just don't ever blame yourself.

    The bottom line is, when you look in the mirror in the morning well over 90% of everything that is wrong with your life is generally your fault and in your power to improve. The remaining percentage is usually due to bad luck and the fact that **** just happens. People in this country need to have this fact hammered into their heads with something very, very heavy and blunt, like a sledgehammer. I'd say it's about time we started showing a lot less sympathy in this country and got a lot more hard nosed and hard assed about things in general.
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    CDB- I don't think denial is an American phenomenon.
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    This article makes me want to kill myself. Seriously though, one needs to consider underlying personality disorders that may have caused him to turn to steroid use in the first place.
    The parents should have done some research too, to see what kind of affect the hormonal imbalance can cause. But they probably equated it to something like smoking pot where he just needed to stop.
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    Wow, you guys are really mindnumbing. I cannot believe that you said that the parents deserve this. What kind of person are you to say this?

    How were the parents supposed to be more involved? Do you expect them to keep an eye on him 24-7, wipe his ass, feed him his food by his mother's breast? Unbelievable...

    This was the teenagers fault, noone else's. And I fully agree that AAS use amongst teens is a VERY serious problem in the US. You can only watch over someone so much...and this kid was at college. Do you expect his parents to bunk with him or something?

    You guys man, you are the problem here, not innocent bystanders. It's easy to play the blame game when it's not your life. Instead of trying to realize that this is a serious concern and think of ways to help teens, you automatically put out your front in order to redeem yourselves from your own useage.

    The above posts disgust me, and I would expect a lot more from the members here at this board.
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    The kid is totally responsible for what was brought upon him. Now that that's outta the way...

    I can sympathize with the parents for the loss of the kid, but not for blaming steroids for his death - although I can understand their standpoint. Sure WE all know how to search the internet, do our own research, and if things get really complicated, have the balls to talk to our doctor - however not everyone knows how to use the internet. For example my parents, my mom is totally computer illiterate and my dad - all he knows is internet banking and hotmail. If I was an ignorant dumbass and was in the kid's shoes, I can't see my parents even getting the idea to do research on the net. Even if they did do 'research', the most I can see them do is google "dianabol" and get a bunch of news websites where dbol is blamed for this and that. The would probably hesitate to go to the doctor asap because steroids are illegal and they probably want to protect me from going to jail or getting a criminal record. The most they'd do is to have me stop and flush my stuff down the toilet.
    Now just say I end up dead a week after my stash is flushed - common sense says that they'll contribute it to the juice. To them, 1+1 = 2, esp since before my juicing I was a great kid and whatnot. I can't see how the parents can be blamed for this when a 19 year old so-called adult made a choice without fully understanding the consequences of using AAS. I mean if the guy got HIV by constantly screwing hookers, would you still blame his parents?

    I agree with the lot of you that the kid was a total dumbass and reaped what he sowed, however I agree with Lifter that the parent's shouldn't be blamed for their adult son's stupid actions and death.
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    this article is just adding more fuel to the fire. too bad we can counter it somehow.
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    "Efrain stopped, just like we asked him to," Mrs. Marrero said. "And I believe he spiraled into a severe depression. We didn't know this at the time, but we're finding out the thing to do is not go off them cold turkey like that. And I believe that is what happened: steroids killed my son."


    actually, no, it wasn't the steroids that killed your son, it was your sons ignorance, accompanied with a pistol, blunt but true

    that **** bothers me, he took something, had no clue what he was doing, and killed himself because of it, if he bought a sports car, drove it too fast, and killed himself crashing into a pole, she wouldnt blame the car company, it's his fault, not the parents, he was gone at college and is 19, he's considered an adult, it's completely on his shoulders
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifted
    Wow, you guys are really mindnumbing. I cannot believe that you said that the parents deserve this. What kind of person are you to say this?
    Nobody in this situation "deserved" it. That doesn't mean their "steroids killed my son" reaction is justified though, or deserving of any sympathy. I had the same opinion when the parents of that moron pitcher who died while taking ephedra went before congress. Tragedy doesn't justify stupidity.

    As for them being computer illiterate or not wanting to go to the doctor for legal reasons, do you think that now their son is dead they might want to have taken the time to learn to use a search engine and read, and perhaps give their doctor a call? It was a bad decision to treat that situation as if it was just over once the drugs were flushed. Stuff like that doesn't just pop up, it's indicative of some deeper problem.

    As for the kid being a great kid before the steroids, I seriously doubt it. I have some contact with the education system, and do you have any idea how many parents want to blame this or that drug, marijuana for example, for their kid's behavior problems and won't face the fact that their kid has a record of misbehaving going back years before they ever used the drug? A lot of parents see their kids as they want them to be, not as they are. That's their mistake.

    Sympathy? Yes, a little. I wish the kid were still alive and had never touched steroids to begin with. But I'm sick of this BS, people placing blame everywhere but where it belongs. It's not a phenomenon limited to the US as I suggested in my previous post, but this is where I live. I'm sick of myself and others having to run the risk of jail and a criminal record if we want to do this or that because the whole country has to live by rules designed to protect everyone from what stupid and/or insane people might do to themselves or others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    Nobody in this situation "deserved" it. That doesn't mean their "steroids killed my son" reaction is justified though, or deserving of any sympathy. I had the same opinion when the parents of that moron pitcher who died while taking ephedra went before congress. Tragedy doesn't justify stupidity.

    As for them being computer illiterate or not wanting to go to the doctor for legal reasons, do you think that now their son is dead they might want to have taken the time to learn to use a search engine and read, and perhaps give their doctor a call? It was a bad decision to treat that situation as if it was just over once the drugs were flushed. Stuff like that doesn't just pop up, it's indicative of some deeper problem.

    As for the kid being a great kid before the steroids, I seriously doubt it. I have some contact with the education system, and do you have any idea how many parents want to blame this or that drug, marijuana for example, for their kid's behavior problems and won't face the fact that their kid has a record of misbehaving going back years before they ever used the drug? A lot of parents see their kids as they want them to be, not as they are. That's their mistake.

    Sympathy? Yes, a little. I wish the kid were still alive and had never touched steroids to begin with. But I'm sick of this BS, people placing blame everywhere but where it belongs. It's not a phenomenon limited to the US as I suggested in my previous post, but this is where I live. I'm sick of myself and others having to run the risk of jail and a criminal record if we want to do this or that because the whole country has to live by rules designed to protect everyone from what stupid and/or insane people might do to themselves or others.
    CDB, this wasn't a kid....he was 19 years old. He can make whatever decision he wants. So why do you think its the parents job to learn how to 1) use the internet if it was an issue. 2) speak to HIS doctor, or 3) pamper and baby this guy till he was blue in the face? YOu're reasoning is a moot point. Did your parents watch over you when you were 19 yrs. old? Did they speak to your doctor and ask him to release YOUR private medical records? Did they move in to your dorm when you were at college? C'mon man, that's so out of this world...this was so out of his parents hands.

    And I do believe that AAS COULD have infact caused this young man to commit suicide. Yes, it was his own fault, but that doesn't mean that you have to cast him out as such. IF a history of depression is evident, low test levels will only contribute to this even moreso. This is actual scientific data. Are you arguing with science?

    ***I can understand you're points if they were in relation to some other AAS teen suicide stories that have depicted AAS as evil amongst us. I've read way too many of them and like you, get disgusted. But I fail to see any logic here in regards to the detailed report that was posted. In all fairness towards this young man and his family, they DO have a legitimate concern here. They could've/should've done this or that, yes....but the reality is they didn't. And one should not bash another human being for being misinformed. It was out of their hands and it IMHO could not have been avoided by their offerings. I'm done...
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    ...i dont think anybody's arguing with science, getting off steroids drove him into depression and he killed himself, nobody's arguing that (i think?)
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    I think the parents are displacing the blame on steroids. Steroids are in the spotlight right now so why not blame it on them. Easy enough. Who's to know this kid hadn't thought about suicide before. Maybe there are other factors we don't know about here. Numerous teenagers commit suicide every year. As a matter of fact suicide is the 3rd major cause of death in teenagers. Nearly 1 in 10 teenagers suffer from depression in the US. I just think that placing the blame on steroids was the easiest thing to do in this case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifted
    CDB, this wasn't a kid....he was 19 years old. He can make whatever decision he wants.
    Legally yes. 19 years old, still at home, with his mom hanging over his shoulder. Legally adult, I'd seriously doubt anyone would call him a fully matured adult thought.

    So why do you think its the parents job to learn how to 1) use the internet if it was an issue. 2) speak to HIS doctor, or 3) pamper and baby this guy till he was blue in the face? YOu're reasoning is a moot point. Did your parents watch over you when you were 19 yrs. old? Did they speak to your doctor and ask him to release YOUR private medical records? Did they move in to your dorm when you were at college? C'mon man, that's so out of this world...this was so out of his parents hands.
    Is blaming them any less reasonable than them blaming the steroids?

    And I do believe that AAS COULD have infact caused this young man to commit suicide. Yes, it was his own fault, but that doesn't mean that you have to cast him out as such. IF a history of depression is evident, low test levels will only contribute to this even moreso. This is actual scientific data. Are you arguing with science?
    Which makes them a contributing factor. Like I said, these things don't develop overnight. My point was just that this wasn't a situation of some perfectly mentally healthy young man living his life, then he took some steroids and turned into a suicidal lunatic. That's the understanding most people take away from articles like this. It's similar in its own way to the reefer madness articles earlier last century about marijuana turning young men into homicidal rapists.

    In all fairness towards this young man and his family, they DO have a legitimate concern here. They could've/should've done this or that, yes....but the reality is they didn't. And one should not bash another human being for being misinformed. It was out of their hands and it IMHO could not have been avoided by their offerings. I'm done...
    I don't see their concern. He's dead. It's just my opinion that their concern should have come before the morgue, not after.
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    Did steroids cause his depression? Honestly, I think it is actually highly likely that the low levels of endogenous test resulting from his usage could very easily have made him depressed. Plus, he was a teenager so he's more susceptable to negative psychological side effects of hormonal imbalances.

    So what is to blaim? He is. He is to blaim for taking them in the first place. If he had done his homework he wouldn't have taken them. If he had taken them anyway after doing his homework, he would have started PCT when his parents took his stuff away. But he didn't do his homework. He didn't do his due dilligence. So what is to blaim for his suicide? He is. He and no one else and nothing else.


    I hope this serves as a lesson to those under 21 thinking about doing a cycle or two, or five.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    Did steroids cause his depression? Honestly, I think it is actually highly likely that the low levels of endogenous test resulting from his usage could very easily have made him depressed. Plus, he was a teenager so he's more susceptable to negative psychological side effects of hormonal imbalances.

    So what is to blaim? He is. He is to blaim for taking them in the first place. If he had done his homework he wouldn't have taken them. If he had taken them anyway after doing his homework, he would have started PCT when his parents took his stuff away. But he didn't do his homework. He didn't do his due dilligence. So what is to blaim for his suicide? He is. He and no one else and nothing else.


    I hope this serves as a lesson to those under 21 thinking about doing a cycle or two, or five.
    Exactly. I agree 100%.
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    One thing i think a lot of people forget too, especially the media, is that perhaps the kid was depressed and considering killing himself when he thought of using steriods. I mean, not be be a jerk, but if I was considering killing myself, and i had heard that steroids were bad for you (from the media), I would probably figure i might as well take them first, as maybe it would turn my life around. I know this makes me sound like a jerk, but looking at that picture it is obvious to me that the kid didnt exactly have the best body (to impress girls) in the world, and i would guess that at least had a little to do with his depression. He was an athlete, he probably figured "if im gonna go down, ill go down swinging." My uncle took his life a few years ago and it definatly tore the whole family apart, so I am not too mad at the guy for blaming steroids, everyone wants to point the finger at something, but the media should become responsible and not boradcast this message to the world as if they studied medicine.
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    lifted, I said what I expected. Your kids should know if the **** hits the fan, you're there for them and you'll help them. Why do you think kids are so freaken stupid to do crap like that? Poor parenting. If you raise your kids to be responsible, they'll most likely be responsible. I even think a more likely reason the kid probably commited suicide would be the way the parents talked to him when they caught him. What they are doing is misplacing blame to assuage their own guilt. With all the negative publicity surrounding steroids do you really think they just talked nicely too him and didn't freak out when they busted him? It's all really speculation but the story sounds so much like a lie, it probably is a lie. The parents are most likely hiding something.

    I also blame the media and the government. If it wasn't so anti-steroid out of proportion to the reality of what steroids are and do, the kid might have learned the reality that steroids when you're still growing are more dangerous. Why would they believe that steroids are dangerous when all these people took steroids and are perfectly fine? Arnold is fine, Conseco is a moron but still fine, Ronnie Coleman is fine, Barry Bonds is fine. There are plenty of stupid people who don't do their research but I don't think that means they deserve to die.

    Also lifted, I don't do steroids per se. I've done M1T, PHs, T3 and clen, but nothing that's a hardcore steroid(well M1T is a little hardcore). I don't plan on pinning myself anytime soon, but I think people should have a right to do so if they want to and are of age. I think it's pretty lame to assume people are only saying don't blame steroids because they're all on them. Maybe people are saying don't blame the steroids because they believe the steroids aren't to blame?

    If anyone doesn't think poor parenting is an epidemic in our society, they're deluded. Kids either raise themselves or are left with strangers to raise them. It's leading to a decay of our society in my opinion. This is all just my opinion, you can all feel a different way, but this is truely what I think, feel and believe.
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    I'd say there's close to a 100% chance that this kid didn't do PCT; it almost says as much in the article. That would indeed lead to a LONG period of almost NO test. That could cause suicidal thoughts (shrinking muscle mass, decreased confidence, aggression, sex drive, sexual function even...). However, I think his piss-poor situation is almost entirely his own fault, and his death a mix of his own fault (for being an uneducated moron) and his doctors fault.... honestly, no HCG or Nolva? Those prescriptions probably would have saved his life.

    There's also the possibility that a dumb, out of college ex-football player living with his parents may have had other reasons to kill himself. who knows.
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    i'll say 100% he didnt do pct, his parents just told him to stop taking them outta nowhere, and shrinking muscle mass isn't a reason people go into depression and commit suicide after steroids bro, it's a hormonal issue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newb017
    i'll say 100% he didnt do pct, his parents just told him to stop taking them outta nowhere, and shrinking muscle mass isn't a reason people go into depression and commit suicide after steroids bro, it's a hormonal issue
    it doesn't help. i'd be pretty depressed if pound after pound of muscle catabolized day by day, wasting my frame away...
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    guys... I really don't think that there can be any "real" proof of his use causing him to commit suicide. He was already screwing things up by starting AAS when he was pumping some much test NATURALLY And the hormone angle I don't think would fly either.. way too many unknowns in this equation to make it work out correctly
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    With 10 minutes of research on the internet his parents could have learned a great deal about how he should have come off steroids. I wonder how they would feel if they knew that.

    Bottom line though, it was the kid's fault, you have to take responsibility for your decisions. No one made him juice, and he didn't care enough to do some research on how to do it right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foster
    lifted, I said what I expected. Your kids should know if the **** hits the fan, you're there for them and you'll help them. Why do you think kids are so freaken stupid to do crap like that? Poor parenting. If you raise your kids to be responsible, they'll most likely be responsible. I even think a more likely reason the kid probably commited suicide would be the way the parents talked to him when they caught him.
    I don't know about that, but I do find the dialogue in the article next to hilarious. "Mark Maguire does them"? You've got to be kidding me. That's what I meant by parents seeing their kids as they want them to be, not as they are. For all we know he was showing his parents the AM or some other website with realistic info on steroids and how they're not that dangerous if used properly, and all they heard was what they quoted in the article. That aside, if at 19 he was such an adult why did he give up the steroids to his mother and father? As an adult he could have told them to go to hell, which indicates to me he's a hell of a lot less mature than people gave him credit for, and his parents had a lot more control over him than some would credit them with. Which is why I'm not too sympathetic to them. They could have used that control to save his life, they didn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houseman
    What a ****ing joke.

    Once again, blame is placed on something when personal responsibility has zero blame.

    19 and using gear. Condonening its' use by saying Barry Bonds does it. If this kid didn't whack himself I'm sure something about have got to him later on.

    My thoughts exactly.
    The New York Times should do an article on the 26,000,000 steroid users that haven't committed suicide. I mean that would be fair right? I'll keep an eye out for that article
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    I don't know about that, but I do find the dialogue in the article next to hilarious. "Mark Maguire does them"? You've got to be kidding me. That's what I meant by parents seeing their kids as they want them to be, not as they are.
    I'll admit I laughed too. This 'kid' was 19 years old, and you'd expect a 6 year old to say something like that.
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    this article sucks. so many unknowns.
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    At my High School, nobody juiced. Yet there were about a dozen or so kids throughout my school that have committed suicide, at least that I knew of. I can't believe the writers are so oblivious to the fact that teenagers occasionally commit suicide. If someone were to get huge just so he can look better to girls, chances are, the kid has self esteem issues to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houseman
    compassion for what?

    He's dead and that's ashame but he's dead because of his own ignorance. I'm not trying to be a dick but if we'd start teaching personal responsibility then these things might not happen.

    If he had of been using coke, would the same reaction/attention be given? Would we try to have compassion or says "That's too bad but it's his own stupid fault"?

    I dunno. Maybe I'm just tired of seeing the blame placed on things where blame doesn't belong in my opinion.
    I agree 110%
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