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The 2012 bug is catching on!

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    I totally understand where yuou are coming from AG. However, no where in the OT does it mention 2 messiahs. Just one
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I totally understand where yuou are coming from AG. However, no where in the OT does it mention 2 messiahs. Just one
    I love these!!!!

    read this my friend
    Why Did So Many Misinterpret Prophecy Regarding the Deliverer?

    As the years passed and the messianic expectation remained unfulfilled, many interpreted the sayings and writings of the prophets erroneously. It is not surprising that they came to see only the political aspects of the Messiah, since there was a scriptural basis for such a belief. Several hundred years before the birth of Christ Zechariah wrote of a day when the Lord (Messiah) would fight against the Jewish enemies “as when he fought in the day of battle [anciently]” ( Zechariah 14:3 ). Zechariah pictured Jerusalem being delivered in great power from all who had opposed her (see Zechariah 14:1–15 ). Isaiah spoke of the Messiah as having the government upon His shoulder (see Isaiah 9:6 ). That phrase certainly suggested a political kingdom. Numerous other prophets foretold His coming in power and glory.

    When one studies the prophecies carefully, however, a dual picture of the Messiah emerges. One picture is that of the “suffering servant.” Isaiah 53 is an outstanding example of the “suffering servant” kind of prophecy. It foretells the sufferings of the Messiah: He will be “a man of sorrows” ( v. 3 ), one who stands “as a sheep before her shearers” ( v. 7 ), one who takes our transgressions upon Himself. The other picture of the Messiah is that of the “King of Glory.” Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 9 contain examples of the “King of Glory” prophecies, which paint a picture of deliverance, political power, and the destruction of the enemies of Israel.

    and then compare these teachings

    The Messianic Expectation in the New Testament

    Other messianic prophecies revealed the life and mission of the Messiah in detail. Those who believed in Christ saw the fulfillment of these prophecies in His life. The writers of the four Gospels in the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, pointed out how Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that referred to the coming Messiah. For example, Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem of Judea (compare Micah 5:2 with Matthew 2:1–6 ), would be an object of great adoration (compare Psalm 72:10 with Matthew 2:1–11 ), would be preceded by a forerunner (compare Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1 with Luke 1:17 and Matthew 3:1–3 ). His ministry was to begin in Galilee (compare Isaiah 9:1–2 with Matthew 4:12, 16–23 ), He would teach in parables (compare Psalm 78:2 with Matthew 13:34–35 ). His ministry would be marked by miracles (compare Isaiah 35:5–6 with Matthew 11:4–5 ) and by rejection of His message (compare Psalm 69:8 and Isaiah 53:3 with John 1:11 and John 7:5 ). Near the end, Messiah would enter Jerusalem in triumph on the back of an ass (compare Zechariah 9:9 with Matthew 21:4–5 ), would be sold for thirty pieces of silver (compare Zechariah 11:12 with Matthew 26:15 ), would be betrayed by a close friend (compare Psalm 41:9 and 55:12–14 with John 13:18, 21 ), and would be deserted by His associates (compare Zechariah 13:7 with Matthew 26:31–56 ). He would be smitten on the cheek (compare Micah 5:1 with Matthew 27:30 ), spat upon (compare Isaiah 50:6 with Matthew 27:30 ), mocked (compare Psalm 22:7–8 with Matthew 27:31, 39–44 ), and beaten (compare Isaiah 50:6 with Matthew 26:67 ; 27:26, 30 ). His hands and feet were to be pierced (compare Psalm 22:16 and Zechariah 12:10 with John 19:33–37 ); yet not a bone in His body would be broken (compare Psalm 34:20 with John 19:33–36 ). He would be numbered with transgressors (compare Isaiah 53:9 with Matthew 27:38 ). He would be given vinegar to drink (compare Psalm 69:21 with Matthew 27:34 ) while thirsting and in pain (compare Psalm 22:15 and John 19:28 ). When dead, He would be buried with the rich (compare Isaiah 53:12 with Matthew 27:57–60 ); but His body would not see corruption (compare Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:31 ), for He would rise from death (compare Psalms 2:7 ; 16:10 with Acts 13:33 ), making it possible for all the dead to rise (compare Isaiah 26:19 and Daniel 12:2 with Matthew 27:52–53 ).

    So to many of us, it is just a matter of seeing it a different way. To me, there is more than enough scriptural evidence to support Jesus as the Christ, the Servant Messiah. And his 2nd Coming will be the final fulfillment of the rest of these.
    THEN will those Jews whom he saves hail him as the Messiah long awaited. However 1 prophecy by Zachariah will then be fulfilled. For in their joy they will see something that strikes them to the ground
    Zechariah 13:6
    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    Then they shall know that he was in fact Jesus, he who was crucified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

    The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
    1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
    2. Usher in an era of peace
    3. Bring all the jews to Israel
    4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

    Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

    Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important
    This one is for you AG. The Messiah, based on the OT was to complete the 4 above referenced. Jesus, did not do any of them. Considering at the time OT was the onyl text from which to take the prophecies, there is truly no onther way to look at it. To use the NT would be silly IMO, as using a text that came after Jesus just doesnt make sense

    Kinda cut and dry
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    This one is for you AG. The Messiah, based on the OT was to complete the 4 above referenced. Jesus, did not do any of them. Considering at the time OT was the onyl text from which to take the prophecies, there is truly no onther way to look at it

    Kinda cut and dry
    absolutely correct my friend! the number one you have listed is actually to happen before the Messiah comes to rule and reign.
    But the other 3, MONEY!!!!
    My reply??? Jesus did not do those things... YET but he DID fulfill the ones I posted above. When will the ones you posted be fulfilled??? Simple my friend, when he comes again. And then THIS will be fulfilled as well

    THEN will those Jews whom he saves hail him as the Messiah long awaited. However 1 prophecy by Zachariah will then be fulfilled. For in their joy they will see something that strikes them to the ground
    Zechariah 13:6
    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    Then they shall know that he was in fact Jesus, he who was crucified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    This one is for you AG. The Messiah, based on the OT was to complete the 4 above referenced. Jesus, did not do any of them. Considering at the time OT was the onyl text from which to take the prophecies, there is truly no onther way to look at it. To use the NT would be silly IMO, as using a text that came after Jesus just doesnt make sense

    Kinda cut and dry
    This is one of my main problems with the Bible. They take someone else's scripture and then add in some new parts and then call it their own. That part just doesn't make sense to me.

    I also find it a tad funny that no one has tried to debunk my arguing in a circle point. No takers...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

    The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
    1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
    2. Usher in an era of peace
    3. Bring all the jews to Israel
    4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

    Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

    Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important
    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    absolutely correct my friend! the number one you have listed is actually to happen before the Messiah comes to rule and reign.
    But the other 3, MONEY!!!!
    My reply??? Jesus did not do those things... YET but he DID fulfill the ones I posted above. When will the ones you posted be fulfilled??? Simple my friend, when he comes again. And then THIS will be fulfilled as well

    THEN will those Jews whom he saves hail him as the Messiah long awaited. However 1 prophecy by Zachariah will then be fulfilled. For in their joy they will see something that strikes them to the ground
    Zechariah 13:6
    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    Then they shall know that he was in fact Jesus, he who was crucified.

    Ahh YET I certainly understand why a theist would look at it that way. However, as I am sure you know, I just cant see it that way. Since the OT never stated a messiah coming around again, Jesus is not the answer to the Messianic prophecies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    This is one of my main problems with the Bible. They take someone else's scripture and then add in some new parts and then call it their own. That part just doesn't make sense to me.

    I also find in a tad funny that no one has tried to debunk my arguing in a circle point. No takers...?
    indeed, it is problematic
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    lol and the great debate continues my brother!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its funny you say that. I was born jewish, however, in no way shape or form am I a practicing jew.

    With that said, I am using the obvious and quite reasonable argument of the jews of the time. There had to be a reason that the jews contemporary to jesus did not see him as a messiah. He did not fufill the OT messianic prophesies. Again, this is not an instance where we can pick and choose which of the prophesies we use. We either use all of them or none of them. It just doesnt fit for jesus.
    Haha, wow! Funny I hit that on the spot. It would be hard not to pull the biased card here. Especially when you were raised in such historic tradition. Most Jews are very proud people. It seems though today that it's more about ethnicity then beliefs. There are many different divisions of Judiasm. There are also a number of Jews that believe christ is the messiah Also many beliefs have been lost over time. The holocaust did a number on the faith of a large amount of Jews. If you don't mind me asking why have you been led away from the faith? If it's too personal that's cool.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HurtinPounds View Post
    Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs' | News.com.au

    Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs'

    AFTER 10 years of comparative slumber, the sun is waking up - and it's got astronomers on full alert.

    This week several US media outlets reported that NASA was warning the massive flare that caused spectacular light shows on Earth earlier this month was just a precursor to a massive solar storm building that had the potential to wipe out the entire planet's power grid. ...
    The Bible predicted impending solar doom 2000 years in advance. NASA's just now jumping on the bandwagon. Hmmmmm.... go figure.

    The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. - Revelation 16:8-9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Maybe me and Jesus.
    Touche, my jewish amigo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Haha, wow! Funny I hit that on the spot. It would be hard not to pull the biased card here. Especially when you were raised in such historic tradition. Most Jews are very proud people. It seems though today that it's more about ethnicity then beliefs. There are many different divisions of Judiasm. There are also a number of Jews that believe christ is the messiah Also many beliefs have been lost over time. The holocaust did a number on the faith of a large amount of Jews. If you don't mind me asking why have you been led away from the faith? If it's too personal that's cool.
    Yes, Messianic Perspectives! Do you ever listen to that show?

    I listen to that radio show all the time. There is something very powerful about a Jew who believes in Christ. They can integrate both traditions to really offer a grand unified explanation of things, and I'm always impressed and blessed with such men's ministries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yes, Messianic Perspectives! Do you ever listen to that show?

    I listen to that radio show all the time. There is something very powerful about a Jew who believes in Christ. They can integrate both traditions to really offer a grand unified explanation of things, and I'm always impressed and blessed with such men's ministries.
    No I haven't but I have had many discussions with Jews. I find a majority don't really know what they believe in and then I've also found a number that accept christ as the messiah. When you find one that does accept christ it's interesting what they say about their people that don't. What's interesting is through out history we as people have not changed. We elect a president and see him as a sign of Hope. Then when he doesn't achieve exactly what we want the majority hate him and reject him.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Haha, wow! Funny I hit that on the spot. It would be hard not to pull the biased card here. Especially when you were raised in such historic tradition. Most Jews are very proud people. It seems though today that it's more about ethnicity then beliefs. There are many different divisions of Judiasm. There are also a number of Jews that believe christ is the messiah Also many beliefs have been lost over time. The holocaust did a number on the faith of a large amount of Jews. If you don't mind me asking why have you been led away from the faith? If it's too personal that's cool.
    Biased? That is actually kinda humorous. Lets look at it like this. I show up in this discussion with actual statements from the OT showing that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and the devout here do not acknowledge it, and I am biased

    In terms of my own personal faith, I was never a believer that because you are born into something, it means you must believe in it. The heirarchy of my temple growing up had no answers to questions I asked, and just thought I was a nuisance. In fact, I also went to a Roman Catholic church as a teenager, and they too responded in the same manner. At the end of the day, I just refuse to take too many leaps of faith when the evidence shows otherwise. To quote the great Bertrand Russell when asked what will he do when he dies, if he were to see god "I would ask him why he provided me with such little evidence".
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    No I haven't but I have had many discussions with Jews. I find a majority don't really know what they believe in and then I've also found a number that accept christ as the messiah. When you find one that does accept christ it's interesting what they say about their people that don't. What's interesting is through out history we as people have not changed. We elect a president and see him as a sign of Hope. Then when he doesn't achieve exactly what we want the majority hate him and reject him.
    there certainly are some who do, but they are certainly within the minority

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Touche, my jewish amigo!

    Maybe I am the second coming
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Biased? That is actually kinda humorous. Lets look at it like this. I show up in this discussion with actual statements from the OT showing that Jesus could not be the Messiah, and the devout here do not acknowledge it, and I am biased

    In terms of my own personal faith, I was never a believer that because you are born into something, it means you must believe in it. The heirarchy of my temple growing up had no answers to questions I asked, and just thought I was a nuisance. In fact, I also went to a Roman Catholic church as a teenager, and they too responded in the same manner. At the end of the day, I just refuse to take too many leaps of faith when the evidence shows otherwise. To quote the great Bertrand Russell when asked what will he do when he dies, if he were to see god "I would ask him why he provided me with such little evidence".
    there certainly are some who do, but they are certainly within the minority
    I agree, you don't have to believe what your born into but I see other factors. It's very interesting that the questions you wanted answers to weren't given to you. This is very common. But often people give up after having a few bad experiences. Could these experiences have left a bad taste in your mouth? Maybe you have looked in the wrong places or maybe you gave up too easily? Emotion is heavily involved in a decision. It's been studied that people cannot make decisions without having emotion behind it. Here's just one.

    http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science...in-study_x.htm

    What's interesting is often people raised in a restrictive religious household rebel. Why do they? Is it really because they don't believe or is it that they are upset they have so many restrictions? Maybe they have been betrayed by someone in the faith. Many will grow up having nothing to do with the faith they were raised by just because the very idea upsets them.

    My cousin is a claimed agnostic and will talk all day about how religion has negatively affected her life and how she wants nothing to do with it. Yet there are many moments where she contradicts herself. She practices certain qualities that you would say are religious because deep down I have no doubt she believes. Her anger however and pride will not allow her to succomb. I find this connection in many so called non-believers.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    whats funny, is that my home was anything but restrictive. In fact qute the oppostive. My father consistently encouraged me to question all that I read in hebrew school and to not take doctrine at face value. So all religious interaction I had, proved to me that there were no answers that anyone could say with 100% certainty. Which led me to a conclusion....it doesnt exist!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    whats funny, is that my home was anything but restrictive. In fact qute the oppostive. My father consistently encouraged me to question all that I read in hebrew school and to not take doctrine at face value. So all religious interaction I had, proved to me that there were no answers that anyone could say with 100% certainty. Which led me to a conclusion....it doesnt exist!
    No, you can't say it doesn't exist just because you can't achieve 100% certainty! Even the Space Shuttle launches on 99.99999...% odds, and it works (usually.) The best you can say is it might exist, or might not exist, but you can't rule it out. If you apply that logic, then everything's fair game not to believe in!

    My father sounds somewhat similar to yours. He was a teacher and a coach, and later an administrator. He was a tough man, but well educated and intelligent, full of love and compassion and amazingly liberal for such a disciplined man. I was drawn to science in part because of his provocations, but he never pushed me in any specific direction. He just encouraged me to play fair and do my best no matter what I choose to pursue. He is agnostic through and through, yet I now know there is a God based on personal observation of spiritual phenomena, which has firmly replaced my "belief" which was only based on scientific suspicions.

    I think that is the missing portion for you AE, you just haven't experienced it personally yet. It is not easy to characterize with conventional discourse, but the experience itself is quite unmistakable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    No, you can't say it doesn't exist just because you can't achieve 100% certainty! Even the Space Shuttle launches on 99.99999...% odds, and it works (usually.) The best you can say is it might exist, or might not exist, but you can't rule it out. If you apply that logic, then everything's fair game not to believe in!

    My father sounds somewhat similar to yours. He was a teacher and a coach, and later an administrator. He was a tough man, but well educated and intelligent, full of love and compassion and amazingly liberal for such a disciplined man. I was drawn to science in part because of his provocations, but he never pushed me in any specific direction. He just encouraged me to play fair and do my best no matter what I choose to pursue. He is agnostic through and through, yet I now know there is a God based on personal observation of spiritual phenomena, which has firmly replaced my "belief" which was only based on scientific suspicions.

    I think that is the missing portion for you AE, you just haven't experienced it personally yet. It is not easy to characterize with conventional discourse, but the experience itself is quite unmistakable.
    you are correct....I am 99.999% certain it doesnt exist

    I have experienced more than my share in 34 years, and very specifically had it rough as a young kid. Those experiences do shape you and make you quite aware. I spent years searching for many answers and realized as time went on that the answers I searched for were within me, not a mystical "space god".
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    you are correct....I am 99.999% certain it doesnt exist
    You crack me up, AE.

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I have experienced more than my share in 34 years, and very specifically had it rough as a young kid. Those experiences do shape you and make you quite aware. I spent years searching for many answers and realized as time went on that the answers I searched for were within me, not a mystical "space god".
    Are you saying that school and early childhood issues turned you off to God? Or religion? And what is this space god you speak of, like aliens?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    You crack me up, AE.




    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Are you saying that school and early childhood issues turned you off to God? Or religion? And what is this space god you speak of, like aliens?
    I would say that early life (to my early 20's) made me realize that stance I have, and the validity in that stance. I always felt religion was grabage (no offense to anyone).

    In terms of space god, when reading ancient texts, there seems to be more evidence to the idea of an extraterrestrial god(s) than there is to something else. Read ancient hindu texts, hell....event he Book of Enoch and you can see that the references are fairly consistent to ET experiences of the modern day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post






    I would say that early life (to my early 20's) made me realize that stance I have, and the validity in that stance. I always felt religion was grabage (no offense to anyone).

    In terms of space god, when reading ancient texts, there seems to be more evidence to the idea of an extraterrestrial god(s) than there is to something else. Read ancient hindu texts, hell....event he Book of Enoch and you can see that the references are fairly consistent to ET experiences of the modern day.
    But Hindus have over 300 million Gods. They worship all kinds of things or people they consider a god. I'm not any expert on hinduism but just starting to study a little about it. I am already confused about it because there are no set rules so to speak. You just do what you want and can make it up as you go if you want.
    They just believe in being reincarnated to a higher level. Time and life is cyclical not linear. It just keeps going and you get a do over the next time around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    But Hindus have over 300 million Gods. They worship all kinds of things or people they consider a god. I'm not any expert on hinduism but just starting to study a little about it. I am already confused about it because there are no set rules so to speak. You just do what you want and can make it up as you go if you want.
    They just believe in being reincarnated to a higher level. Time and life is cyclical not linear. It just keeps going and you get a do over the next time around.
    I believe you are speaking about Karma and Moksha. Not trying to be disrespectful, but you are missing a great deal of information here.

    In terms of the cycle of life/death/rebirth (moksha) you can move forward a level, or backwards a level depending upon how you lived your previous life. There are many rules and a desire at the end, which is to end the cycle of moksha and unify with Brahma (universal spirit).

    I was referring to the texts the Mahabarta and the Ramayana. Both of which mention flying vehicles, advanced weaponry etc... (also just sparking a bit with Dr. D.)
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    Going back to emotion and logic. Let everyone remember their first love for a moment. Usually that person was bad for you. However you ignored all the signs of reality. Everyone around you saw that. They tried to help you see reality but you were fueled by the emotion and no one was going to tell you what to do. I find seeing the evidence of a God is quite the same. Others may be overwhelmed with evidence but you just can't see it because you've been distracted by emotions. Emotions when controlled lead to logic and wisdom as we get older. Eventually we realize why that girl was not good for us.

    Going back to a bad experience shaping your decisions and thought process, if that girl broke your heart you will in fact remember her for the rest of your life. That experience has shaped you in some way. You can't say that it hasn't. For the rest of your life you will avoid girls like her. You may even not let another girl completely in because of her. You will be guarded. I find you may be guarded AE.

    I was raised to be free to decide for myself what to bellieve also. My parents never pushed anything on me. There were years of spiritual darkness for me. I did not just believe blindly. I have been on the other side of the tracks.

    I found however that this scripture applied to me eventually.

    Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a boy according to the way for him; even when he grows old he will not turn aside from it."
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Well flaw, I do not believe I am guarded from religion/god etc... I just think I opened my eyes up and realized what was there in front of me
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    I think God exists in all of us and I find it hard to believe no one feels it. I have noticed a internal and external conflict within. I spent half my life trying to be from the internal feelings. But they are undeniable. Even today I struggle to trust in God at times. I think it's human nature to wanna be free from it. Do what we wanna do, when we wanna do it. Set our own rules. Even when I was in a time of spiritual darkness I felt God's hand. Not litteraly but I mean I felt his presence. I struggle to believe you don't feel this. Whether you want to call it God or energy or something else.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I think God exists in all of us and I find it hard to believe no one feels it. I have noticed a internal and external conflict within. I spent half my life trying to be from the internal feelings. But they are undeniable. Even today I struggle to trust in God at times. I think it's human nature to wanna be free from it. Do what we wanna do, when we wanna do it. Set our own rules. Even when I was in a time of spiritual darkness I felt God's hand. Not litteraly but I mean I felt his presence. I struggle to believe you don't feel this. Whether you want to call it God or energy or something else.
    Sorry my friend, I dont feel any presence.
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    I guess it is what it is..
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Sorry my friend, I dont feel any presence.
    AE what are your spiritual beliefs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    ... I was referring to the texts the Mahabarta and the Ramayana. Both of which mention flying vehicles, advanced weaponry etc... (also just sparking a bit with Dr. D.)
    I watched an interesting show on the History or Discovery channel the other night that made a compelling argument for ancient nuclear wars in India, between ***** factions of forces that dominated the skies at the time. It looked like the scientific evidence jibed well with the old texts, and the Bible speaks of such things in antiquity as well.

    It's not difficult for me to consider that there may be something to it, because I see no other driving force for the rumors to still persist if it were simply based on primitive fables. There must be some truth in it that could be extracted with careful analysis. I also don't see any imperative (much less means) for the high correspondence of these myths between diverse global cultures and greatly differing religious ideologies. Borrowing old stories to refashion? I just don't see an advantage in such regression, and don't see how it would have endured modernization if there weren't something to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    ... Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a boy according to the way for him; even when he grows old he will not turn aside from it."
    This is a point I made also, that our understanding is subject to preconception. As kids, we literally take EVERYTHING on faith, and we become the product of our parental programming. For the most part, we are neurologically hardwired and psychologically scripted for the rest of our lives by the age of 5-6 years old.

    "The moment a little boy is concerned with which is a jay and which is a sparrow, he can no longer see the birds or hear them sing." - Eric Berne

    This means that as we mature and progress as adults, we become 'functionally fixated' in such a way as to disqualify ourselves from many options, because we are already too vested down another path already. People live in this denial rather that adjust to reality, because they are unwilling to consider that they've been wrong for so long, and may have to make some uncomfortable changes to really get their lives right. Changing course at that point seems just too overwhelming for most (this is especially evident in very old people), so they swallow the blue pill so to speak and remain in their comfort zones, which may be far from reality but is no less familiar to them so they stay. I pity such people, and remain very thankful that I was not skewed in childhood by early religious exposure or hypocrisy.

    There is an easy way to start over though and get back on the path of truth, but most people never even consider it. This is the story of the Gordian Knot. When we come to the end of our rope, we tie a knot and hang on with all we've got. But one day after our lives have become too hopelessly knotted to untie, we forget how easy it would be to stop trying to untie it, and simply cut the knot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    AE what are your spiritual beliefs?
    I dont believe I actually have any. I do think that in a sense there is a type of karma out there, but one a scale I do not understand. Outside of that, I believe that these questions are entirely unanswerable, and are laughable (similar to the way The Buddha responded when asked if he was a god)

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I watched an interesting show on the History or Discovery channel the other night that made a compelling argument for ancient nuclear wars in India, between ***** factions of forces that dominated the skies at the time. It looked like the scientific evidence jibed well with the old texts, and the Bible speaks of such things in antiquity as well.

    It's not difficult for me to consider that there may be something to it, because I see no other driving force for the rumors to still persist if it were simply based on primitive fables. There must be some truth in it that could be extracted with careful analysis. I also don't see any imperative (much less means) for the high correspondence of these myths between diverse global cultures and greatly differing religious ideologies. Borrowing old stories to refashion? I just don't see an advantage in such regression, and don't see how it would have endured modernization if there weren't something to it.
    I have seen the show you are talking about and I have read the texts. Additionally, I have also seen the cave paintings and ancient sculptures. There is a lot of evidence to support it. On of the coolest things to me are sites like Puma Punku and Tiwanaku. Totally unexplainable imo
    I do think there is evidence to support the anceint texts in this regard, however it is funny that the OT is new in comparison to the others
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I dont believe I actually have any. I do think that in a sense there is a type of karma out there, but one a scale I do not understand. Outside of that, I believe that these questions are entirely unanswerable, and are laughable (similar to the way The Buddha responded when asked if he was a god)
    Well the Buddha thought asking these kinds of questions won't get you anywhere. Questions about life after death, questions about God..... I don't agree with this.

    Trying to answer these questions have led to some of mankind's greatest philosophical literature throughout history (which no doubt have influenced some of the greatest minds amongst humanity). Trying to answer these questions have put meaning into my life instead of just "drifting" through it waiting for the unveiling of "the meaning of life" at my death (which I'm not even sure will happen).

    I would never describe these questions as laughable, for they have no doubt influenced human society in great ways.

    So what exactly do you believe about God? That he may or may not exist but we can never prove it? Is that where you stand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Well the Buddha thought asking these kinds of questions won't get you anywhere. Questions about life after death, questions about God..... I don't agree with this.

    Trying to answer these questions have led to some of mankind's greatest philosophical literature throughout history (which no doubt have influenced some of the greatest minds amongst humanity). Trying to answer these questions have put meaning into my life instead of just "drifting" through it waiting for the unveiling of "the meaning of life" at my death (which I'm not even sure will happen).

    I would never describe these questions as laughable, for they have no doubt influenced human society in great ways.

    So what exactly do you believe about God? That he may or may not exist but we can never prove it? Is that where you stand?

    I tend to agree with the Buddha. No doubt that they have influenced history (both good and bad)but they are truly pointless.

    I personally believe there is nothing there. I dont believe it has given me any meaning in my life. I have searched, and found nothing. It is no different then any other research that I have done for any other topic in my life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I tend to agree with the Buddha. No doubt that they have influenced history (both good and bad)but they are truly pointless.

    I personally believe there is nothing there. I dont believe it has given me any meaning in my life. I have searched, and found nothing. It is no different then any other research that I have done for any other topic in my life.
    If they have influenced history in a good way, how can they be pointless? How can anything good be pointless? Do you believe in being a good man, living life with virtue and respect? Do you try to live your life in this fashion? If yes, why? Do you see value in it?

    What do you make of human intelligence then? Our intelligence doesn't shock you at all? You don't wonder how something like this could have possibly developed through evolution? When you look around the planet, and you see monkeys eating ants with sticks, and then you peer into human society and you see me typing on a laptop to you who is far away geographically... you don't see anything weird in the way "we" are? Weird enough to question ... "Hey, something weird is going on within human beings... something I don't see anywhere else in the natural world."

    You don't believe something "could" be there simply because of the way we humans are? We are pretty special. When it comes down to it, we will explain everything about the universe, reality, nature, but we will never understand the construct of the human mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    If they have influenced history in a good way, how can they be pointless? How can anything good be pointless? Do you believe in being a good man, living life with virtue and respect? Do you try to live your life in this fashion? If yes, why? Do you see value in it?
    In essence, it really comes down to the subjective nature of good. In terms of being a good man, I try to live a very honest life. Why? It was how I was raised and how I raise my daughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    What do you make of human intelligence then? Our intelligence doesn't shock you at all? You don't wonder how something like this could have possibly developed through evolution? When you look around the planet, and you see monkeys eating ants with sticks, and then you peer into human society and you see me typing on a laptop to you who is far away geographically... you don't see anything weird in the way "we" are? Weird enough to question ... "Hey, something weird is going on within human beings... something I don't see anywhere else in the natural world."
    Should the intelligence of the human race shock me? If so, why?

    To me, our brains have changed greatly over the many millenia that humans have soured the earth. Some of those changes are for the better and some not. I think there is something to be said for that monkee eating ants on a stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    You don't believe something "could" be there simply because of the way we humans are? We are pretty special. When it comes down to it, we will explain everything about the universe, reality, nature, but we will never understand the construct of the human mind.
    I see your point to an extent. I am not totally in agreement with you that the human race is so special. There was a study done that stated the following:
    If all insects disappeared from Earth, human life would go extinct within 50 years. If all human life disappeared from Earth, ALL other life forms would statistically flourish in that same period". Are we really that special?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I have searched, and found nothing. It is no different then any other research that I have done for any other topic in my life.
    "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13

    As long as you desire to satisfy your desire for evidence that is natural and logical you will very likely never find Him, the supernatural God.

    As much as you would like to produce lemonade, you can't make lemonade from oranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    There was a study done that stated the following:
    If all insects disappeared from Earth, human life would go extinct within 50 years. If all human life disappeared from Earth, ALL other life forms would statistically flourish in that same period". Are we really that special?
    "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it." Genesis 2:15

    Yeah. I tend to believe we are.

    Though we have failed to a great extent in many aspects of our responsibilities, we are instructed to care for the creation (the Earth and all in it). The creation (the Earth and all in it) is not instructed to care for us. Although it may thrive or flourish without us, it is no longer under our care, therefore thriving and flourishing outside of its intended purpose or design.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    In essence, it really comes down to the subjective nature of good. In terms of being a good man, I try to live a very honest life. Why? It was how I was raised and how I raise my daughter.
    You have chosen to live an honest life. I doubt it's solely because that's how you were raised... but you also feel it's the right way if you're raising your daughter this way. All cultures in the world can recognize a smile.. it is universal. I believe the essence of "good" is likewise universal.


    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Should the intelligence of the human race shock me? If so, why?

    To me, our brains have changed greatly over the many millenia that humans have soured the earth. Some of those changes are for the better and some not. I think there is something to be said for that monkee eating ants on a stick.
    It should shock you. The only other place you find intelligence like ours is within the structure of the universe. And that surpasses our knowledge by a long shot.

    There is something to be said for the monkey eating ants with a stick... but there is something MORE to be said about the animal sitting on laptop sending wireless language encoded messages through the airwaves. We are just animals. I don't get what miraculous thing happened within us to get us where we are. It's so mysterious and shocking to me it carries a divine aspect.

    So then AE... do you believe we are the highest forms of intelligence? Clearly we are intelligent... now are we as far is it gets? Because clearly the universe order surpasses our knowledge. So that right there signifies higher forms of intelligence.

    What do you make of the fish developing an air bladder deep in the ocean... millions of years before stepping on land? Who or what was guiding this development? Nature?

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I see your point to an extent. I am not totally in agreement with you that the human race is so special. There was a study done that stated the following:
    If all insects disappeared from Earth, human life would go extinct within 50 years. If all human life disappeared from Earth, ALL other life forms would statistically flourish in that same period". Are we really that special?
    Well... if we went extinct, and ALL other life forms flourished after... regardless of whether that makes us good or bad... it DOES make us special. Look at the impact we had. It is special... it is significant. We are powerful beyond measure. We have the capacity to destroy an ENTIRE planet lol.
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    We humans are special in the way Cancer is special.
    We spread out and consume.
    Polluting and killing the earth.
    So sure we are special.

    But to say we are the most intellegent ...I am not sure about that.

    In the end Belief in a God or a higher power will allways come down to A Persons Own Personal Need to make sense of things.

    After being presented with historical proof and facts the Believer will allways refer back to " Well I have experienced and felt the presence etc etc "


    " You can not make lemonade out of Oranges "
    Well now how da hell can I argue with that ???
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    We humans are special in the way Cancer is special.
    We spread out and consume.
    Polluting and killing the earth.
    So sure we are special.

    But to say we are the most intellegent ...I am not sure about that.

    In the end Belief in a God or a higher power will allways come down to A Persons Own Personal Need to make sense of things.

    After being presented with historical proof and facts the Believer will allways refer back to " Well I have experienced and felt the presence etc etc "


    " You can not make lemonade out of Oranges "
    Well now how da hell can I argue with that ???
    That's very true on all accounts.

    To say we are special... I don't mean it in a good or bad way. Just that we are very significant. There is something significant about us.

    Because just as we are like a cancer,
    we have come to heal cancer in others through medicine.

    Just like we have come to put creatures into extinction,
    we have developed the capability to create amazing creatures through genetic modifications.

    Just as we pollute the earth,
    we can develop a sustainable way of life and even improve conditions on this planet.

    To denounce our intelligence based on the wrong choices we make does not hold true. Regardless of whether we kill the planet, or rejuvenate it and improve it, we are intelligent beings.

    And I can tell you 100% there is life outside of our planet. But I can never tell you there might be intelligent life beyond this planet. We don't understand intelligent life to know how it came to be to say for certain it will exist beyond Earth. We just know of biological life... and we know for a damn fact there is more biological life in our Universe. But intelligent life? Hmmmm... this is a tough one. So in my eyes, we are special.
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    We as humans IMO are still in our infancy. We have a long long way to go and evolve ( if we make it b4 killing ourselfs ) before we can even get close to understand the reasons behind the universe.
  

  
 

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