The 2012 bug is catching on!

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    ... Why are you calling me a person in need of a second chance? ...
    I'm sorry CM. It makes me sad to see you hurting and insulted. I swear I didn't mean anything I said to degrade you or your beliefs. I am wrong to assume you need any second chances, perhaps you are perfectly self-reliant. Please forgive me and know that I do love and respect you my friend.

    I have experienced certain things though, and I just can't figure a good way to convey those insights. I wish I could, but it's not my strength apparently.


  2. Dunn.... I read the entire thing you posted and will comment on it later but for now this is what I have to say...

    Any teaching that requires the death of plants, and the death of animals, is a teaching not worthy of being taught. It is counterintuitive to kill, and teach not to kill.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I'm sorry CM. It makes me sad to see you hurting and insulted. I swear I didn't mean anything I said to degrade you or your beliefs. I am wrong to assume you need any second chances, perhaps you are perfectly self-reliant. Please forgive me and know that I do love and respect you my friend.

    I have experienced certain things though, and I just can't figure a good way to convey those insights. I wish I could, but it's not my strength apparently.
    I'm sorry too D. It's hard to ever discuss what we are discussing without throwing our emotions into play. We're human.

    I must say, I am enjoying our discussion very much. I find your insights and your analogies amazing. I love how you take what I say and relay it to a real life situation that embodies what I'm saying. With the teacher, and the parent, you always find some great analogy that I find tough as heck to debate against. You would make a great lawyer lol.

    I'm sorry for over reacting too bro. I have love and respect for you as well D. Like I said before... you are one smart dude

  4. hey CM interested on your take with the Book of Revelation and the impending doom to come there. I must say that I agree with one thing you said when you spoke against those looking forward to the doom of Israel, but I think there are those of us who ARE Christians who "Fear the dreadful day of the Lord" as well as "Look forward to His coming" I have studied the Book of Rev in the Greek and love the poetic way John lays out his apocryphal writing. But let's ensure that we understand one another. John wrote what he saw, not what he wished would come to pass. He is merely a spectator to the horrible events foretold to come. Now whether one believes that these events will in fact come to pass, which I do, should not change the sense of humanity that we should have for others. I for one cringe at the thought of war. I have fought in wars, I know what it feels like to have others hunt you, I know what it means to be afraid. I also know what it means to have courage and stand up for the truth and belief that one has. I abhor war, as all should, but I DO look forward to seeing the Christ when he comes to rule again.
    Of note also, it is men that will cause those horrible things to take place as mentioned in the book, not God. God simply comes down to put a final stop to it.
    Working on living

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    hey CM interested on your take with the Book of Revelation and the impending doom to come there. I must say that I agree with one thing you said when you spoke against those looking forward to the doom of Israel, but I think there are those of us who ARE Christians who "Fear the dreadful day of the Lord" as well as "Look forward to His coming" I have studied the Book of Rev in the Greek and love the poetic way John lays out his apocryphal writing. But let's ensure that we understand one another. John wrote what he saw, not what he wished would come to pass. He is merely a spectator to the horrible events foretold to come. Now whether one believes that these events will in fact come to pass, which I do, should not change the sense of humanity that we should have for others. I for one cringe at the thought of war. I have fought in wars, I know what it feels like to have others hunt you, I know what it means to be afraid. I also know what it means to have courage and stand up for the truth and belief that one has. I abhor war, as all should, but I DO look forward to seeing the Christ when he comes to rule again.
    Of note also, it is men that will cause those horrible things to take place as mentioned in the book, not God. God simply comes down to put a final stop to it.
    Revelations is a very interesting subject and one that I have studied out of sheer cause of quandry. Was John writing what he saw? If so, then Revelations is the undoing of Christian thought in essence. If this was what John was told by god, then free will is a null and void commentary. If god showed this event(s) to John as the future, then free will either does not exist, or is meaningless as these events are bound to happen regardless.

    On the flip side, was what John wrote a commentary upon the times that he was living in? Lets look at the history and the horrible conditions that the Pauline Christians (thats who truly was affected here) were living under. Nero was the Emperor who used the Christians and Jews of the time as scapegoats countless times. Hell, he made Christian human torches to light the path to his home. He was so bad that the senate voted to kill him. Not just execute him, but beat him to death. Was John writing about the eventual coming up as it were against the empire that was persecuting them.

    I do not believe that anyone can fortell events that have yet to transpire and have so many variables that will lead to them. I side with a commentary of contemporary events for John. However, it is an interesting topic none the less.
    Mr. Supps Board Rep
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  6. completely agree with you on the interest of the Book of Rev. I agree that living during the time of Nero must have been hell on earth for the Christians of that day and age. In fact most believe that is where the number 666 came from is that is the numeric value of Nero written out in the Greek form. Coincidence??? I think not. I do respect your way of looking at it though. It would be hard to reconcile having a God who already knows the future. Never the less, I believe it gets much deeper than this. Not to make the discussion too deep, I will just use one short example. If you hold your pen in your hand, which I am sure is red , what do you think will happen when you release the pen above your desk? It will, in fact, fall and hit your desk correct? You can predict that outcome, not because you can alter the laws of physics and change the path that the pen will travel, but because you understood the laws that were at work, and based upon those laws you were able to draw your conclusion of the future.
    That being said I believe that the same goes with God. He does not simply dictate the course of the future and thus agency for man is taken away. Rather he understands the laws set in motion, and knows the human condition better than any of us could. Thus, he makes that same prediction to how (for lack of a better term) the "end" will come...
    Working on living

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    completely agree with you on the interest of the Book of Rev. I agree that living during the time of Nero must have been hell on earth for the Christians of that day and age. In fact most believe that is where the number 666 came from is that is the numeric value of Nero written out in the Greek form. Coincidence??? I think not. I do respect your way of looking at it though. It would be hard to reconcile having a God who already knows the future. Never the less, I believe it gets much deeper than this. Not to make the discussion too deep, I will just use one short example. If you hold your pen in your hand, which I am sure is red , what do you think will happen when you release the pen above your desk? It will, in fact, fall and hit your desk correct? You can predict that outcome, not because you can alter the laws of physics and change the path that the pen will travel, but because you understood the laws that were at work, and based upon those laws you were able to draw your conclusion of the future.
    That being said I believe that the same goes with God. He does not simply dictate the course of the future and thus agency for man is taken away. Rather he understands the laws set in motion, and knows the human condition better than any of us could. Thus, he makes that same prediction to how (for lack of a better term) the "end" will come...

    I like the red reference

    That is an interesting way to look at it. However the law of gravity seems a bit more simplistic imo that several thousands of years of events that must transpire in a particular fashion to lead to a particular end. Maybe to a supreme being it is that simple, however, imo to the minds of us silly little humans, that is a lot to comprehend. To me, it nullifies free will entirely, however, I do love to study revelations. Such an artistic picture painted about horrific events that I hope are no where near our lifetime or that of our children.

    With regards to Nero, the more I study him, the more I wish that the senate had gotten their wish and been able to beat him to death. What a horrible human being. Killing your own mother, who had killed to put you in power in the first place. Its funny how he even has a lasting impact on the Rome and its ruins to this day. Hell the Colesseum is named for him.

    I had seen the 666 reference and I agree with you 100%, he is the reference, not some "beast". It would most certainly be a reference to a contemporary event/person
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  8. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I like the red reference

    That is an interesting way to look at it. However the law of gravity seems a bit more simplistic imo that several thousands of years of events that must transpire in a particular fashion to lead to a particular end. Maybe to a supreme being it is that simple, however, imo to the minds of us silly little humans, that is a lot to comprehend. To me, it nullifies free will entirely, however, I do love to study revelations. Such an artistic picture painted about horrific events that I hope are no where near our lifetime or that of our children.

    With regards to Nero, the more I study him, the more I wish that the senate had gotten their wish and been able to beat him to death. What a horrible human being. Killing your own mother, who had killed to put you in power in the first place. Its funny how he even has a lasting impact on the Rome and its ruins to this day. Hell the Colesseum is named for him.

    I had seen the 666 reference and I agree with you 100%, he is the reference, not some "beast". It would most certainly be a reference to a contemporary event/person
    agree he was a beast! Oh and for those scholars that think the translation is not 666 but in fact 696... the numerical Hebrew of Nero is 696... I agree with you that I hope my children never have to face the future of anyone like a Nero taking charge...
    Again this is what makes Rev so interesting... did he mean his day, ours, both???? I tend to lean towards the later... both
    Working on living

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    agree he was a beast! Oh and for those scholars that think the translation is not 666 but in fact 696... the numerical Hebrew of Nero is 696... I agree with you that I hope my children never have to face the future of anyone like a Nero taking charge...
    Again this is what makes Rev so interesting... did he mean his day, ours, both???? I tend to lean towards the later... both
    both would be interesting. As that would bring about another leader the likes of Nero. We have seen many, but I am curious to see if another could rise and gain the prominence as the world is very different from the time of John. It is going to be quite interesting to say the least
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  10. AG.. great points made. In an earlier post to DR. D, I said the final war was necessary for God's will. You make a great point that it is us humans that bring on that final war and God is a participant, not the orchestrator.

    This is what I find weird tho AG... How does the book of Revelations end? The devil is locked into the abyss for a thousand years...... What happened to hell being eternal? Why did heaven come down to Earth? Heaven was supposed to be a place different then Earth. I thought the Bible mentioned the Earth will waste away, not be made anew....

    Revelations doesn't match up with the rest of the Bible. It is unique in it's own work and like you said, maybe written for it's time... which I agree with.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    AG.. great points made. In an earlier post to DR. D, I said the final war was necessary for God's will. You make a great point that it is us humans that bring on that final war and God is a participant, not the orchestrator.

    This is what I find weird tho AG... How does the book of Revelations end? The devil is locked into the abyss for a thousand years...... What happened to hell being eternal? Why did heaven come down to Earth? Heaven was supposed to be a place different then Earth. I thought the Bible mentioned the Earth will waste away, not be made anew....

    Revelations doesn't match up with the rest of the Bible. It is unique in it's own work and like you said, maybe written for it's time... which I agree with.
    fantastic point my friend! the problem understanding the Rev is that it is not written in order. Once I had this explained to me, and more importantly SHOWN to me, the whole thing came together much nicer. very simplistic timeline here but this is how I now understand it to be
    He comes after the Wooo's are finished and save the Children of Israel (also stated in Ezekiel) this is also where the mountain parts
    Devil banished for 1000 years (how come only 1000 years) I love a few of the words in the Greek here, which is the language it was in originally. That the Devil will be infact banished in the hearts of men, not literally. They have their Savior ruling over them, and thus Satan has no hold and is thus "bound" for 1000 years.
    How does he come back??? again it is men. They let him back into their hearts and thus give him the power he needs to bring the "Great" destruction John saw.
    Battle of Gog and Magog
    Savior saves his people one last time and thus Satan is this time "figuratively AND literally speaking" banned forever
    Paradise on earth...

    did this off memory with no references, so please forgive that.
    Working on living

  12. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    You would make a great lawyer lol. ...
    That's what my mom always said, that I should have been a lawyer! haha

    Thank you for being so gracious with me. It's a good man who is quick to forgive.
  13. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Dunn.... I read the entire thing you posted and will comment on it later but for now this is what I have to say...

    Any teaching that requires the death of plants, and the death of animals, is a teaching not worthy of being taught. It is counterintuitive to kill, and teach not to kill.
    Animals and plants? You are serious?

    I respectfully withdraw myself from this discussion. Thank you.
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Animals and plants? You are serious?

    I respectfully withdraw myself from this discussion. Thank you.
    I don't take back any of my words or beliefs...

    But if they are enough to make a respectable person here on AM withdraw from discussion I probably should have just stayed out of all of this.

    Thank you guys for the daily discussion especially DR. D. I really did enjoy it. I withdraw myself also.
  15. Moderator
    David Dunn's Avatar

    chocolatemilk,

    It's me, not you. You're fine.
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  16. Dunn, thank you. I'm sorry if I upset you in any way, it was not my intention.

    I grew up immersed in the Bible every single day as a child. It matures your heart, mind, and soul do dive deeper into the mystery. It has captivated human beings for 2000 years. Those words, the word of God, are truly magical if not for those reasons and they hold a special place within us all. I don't want to come off as anti-bible, for if you want to truly grow as a person, and set on a true, personal, and intimate quest for God... the Bible is the stepping stone for the journey, and might just be the final destination also. Everyone finds solace in those words. They are alluring and always bring you back.

    "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made of things which are visible" Hebrews

    I think there is more Science in the bible than we think^

    So about 2012... LOL

  17. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I think there is more Science in the bible than we think^

    So about 2012... LOL
    I think that this line is the best one thus far my friend! I think there is science in all of God's miracles, but at least for me that is what makes God who he is. He understands science better than all, and can thus use the natural laws of nature to affect an outcome he is seeking... thoughts?
    Working on living

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    I think that this line is the best one thus far my friend! I think there is science in all of God's miracles, but at least for me that is what makes God who he is. He understands science better than all, and can thus use the natural laws of nature to affect an outcome he is seeking... thoughts?
    Deep^^, This is why I invited the lord into my life

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    I think that this line is the best one thus far my friend! I think there is science in all of God's miracles, but at least for me that is what makes God who he is. He understands science better than all, and can thus use the natural laws of nature to affect an outcome he is seeking... thoughts?
    Just curious what you mean by: outcome he is seeking?
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  20. Good question... examples would be...
    Water to wine
    Healing of the blind
    Tree being cut down to heal the water...
    IMHO I believe that there is science involved in all of it. If thus doesn't make sense I can explain further

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    Good question... examples would be...
    Water to wine
    Healing of the blind
    Tree being cut down to heal the water...
    IMHO I believe that there is science involved in all of it. If thus doesn't make sense I can explain further
    nope....now I got you.

    Its funny you bring those up, as there is a lot of science to support the 10 plagues (although the Exodus is utter nonsense IMO). All of the plagues (minus #10) were historical events in Egypt that transpired regularly. Number 10 has an explanation, with specific reference to a mold that grew and the eldest son being fed the most. All quite interesting.

    I was just reading something about Ancient Egypt and specifically their god Horus as well as Greece and Dionysus. Did you know that Horus healed the blind and Dionysus turned water to wine? This is of course according to Egyptian and Greek legends.
    Mr. Supps Board Rep

  22. Yes I have studied the plagues ideas and find them extremely interesting and fun to go through.
    There are many traditions out there for various individuals doing numerous different things. There are probably grains of truth to many of them. I wish I could type more of a reply to this my friend, but alas I am on my Droid with fat army thumbs in a boring please kill me meeting. Great stuff to intrigue the mind though...

  23. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    nope....now I got you.

    Its funny you bring those up, as there is a lot of science to support the 10 plagues ...
    Haha, ok, well what about walking on water? In the middle of the sea during a storm no less!

    I have a degree in physics AE, and I still can't find an equation to explain that one away.

  24. That or raising the dead...

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    That or raising the dead...
    Of course! An even better example AG.

    I'm not aware of any other religious leader that even claimed he could do this, much less say that he would resurrect himself in a specific time-frame and then actually do it. People say that all religions are the same, and Christ seems no greater than any other religious icon, but to me this is what really separates Christ from the rest. I mean, who else has stated that they hold the keys of life and death?! Jesus Christ.
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