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    Ok my brothers, got a few PM's on the quote above asking about what it was like to feel this hunted feeling as well as the Army thing. I felt it was just easier to explain here.
    Now by no means is this solo to me. Every day thousands of our nation's finest patrol in harms way every day. However, only hundreds these days do this in a truly hostile environment. The hardest thing to do on my first deployment was getting in that truck and roll out that gate. It was driving that was the most dangerous thing in Iraq. That is where people were getting killed. It is at these times that one has to "Man up" and just do it. We have been trained to put the mission first, and that is what happens everyday there in combat zones. At one time I actually made eye contact with a guy standing off to the side of the road counting the vehicles as they went by. When he reached my truck, he stopped and began pushing a button on his cell phone. It was then we made eye contact and there was a hesitation. He finally recovered and blew the IED, but it was right behind me. It sent shrapnel through my vehicle, a soft skin non armored HUMVEE, but no one was injured. I thanks God over and over that day, because had the 155 round had hit my truck full on it would have killed us all.
    When I did get injured my first time in Iraq, I remember laying in pain on a gurney in Balad Iraq just reeling because of the pain. However, no one was over working on me. I grew angry and looked to the other part of the hospital room where everyone was at. It was then I saw the young Marine battling for his life. They were doing everything they could to save him and both his arms. It was then that I changed a second time. It was one of those times when one's pain means nothing, and I had never felt so ashamed. I manned up again and began praying for that kid, no more than 18 years old. I also watched as they rolled his battle buddy with a sheet pulled over his head next to me and park the body right next to mine. Things like that change you and better prepares one for dealing with larger issues in life.
    When I went out the 2nd time to Iraq, I was walking up and down the Iranian border almost daily. We had Iranian forts within mortar range, and watched them aim at us time and time again, but there was no fear this time. I had grown and knew that it was not yet my time. That didn't make me reckless, but better made me able to lead those who looked to me to help keep them alive.
    I thank God every day that I was able to come home through these hard times alive. For those who do not believe in the existence of God, I must beg to differ. I saw his hand daily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    It was then I saw the young Marine battling for his life. They were doing everything they could to save him and both his arms. It was then that I changed a second time. It was one of those times when one's pain means nothing, and I had never felt so ashamed. I manned up again and began praying for that kid, no more than 18 years old. I also watched as they rolled his battle buddy with a sheet pulled over his head next to me and park the body right next to mine. Things like that change you and better prepares one for dealing with larger issues in life.
    When I went out the 2nd time to Iraq, I was walking up and down the Iranian border almost daily. We had Iranian forts within mortar range, and watched them aim at us time and time again, but there was no fear this time. I had grown and knew that it was not yet my time. That didn't make me reckless, but better made me able to lead those who looked to me to help keep them alive.
    1 Peter 5

    To Elders and Young Men

    To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

    Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

    Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

    And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    1 Peter 5

    Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
    I think my friend that the being Humble part is the hardest... I pray all the time that I may be humble so that I do NOT have to be humbled. Pride is enmity, and overcoming ones pride is the struggle of mankind. It has killed millions, and that is the body of men not just the soul.
    Thanks for the words my brother!
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    wisdom in these last few posts spiritual wisdom
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    I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

    I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

    Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

    Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

    Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

    Absolutely amazing documentary.

    What do you guys think of this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

    I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

    Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

    Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

    Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

    Absolutely amazing documentary.

    What do you guys think of this?

    certainly interesting to say the least, and I for one am not going to say I understand it totally.

    one other thing to add which is back from our original discussion, how many of you have seen Religulous? Please keep the Bill Maher hate to a minimum (I am not a fan either). His documentary is somewhat interesting and relates to our topic
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

    I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

    Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

    Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

    Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

    Absolutely amazing documentary.

    What do you guys think of this?
    Do I take the red pill or the blue pill? It seems a little out there to say a chair is no longer there if you don't observe it. And my only criticism of WELL ESTABLISHED SCIENCE is the Anglia University scandal putting out deceptive SCIENCE on global warming. When the leading scientist in that field get caught making up evidence or covering up what doesn't match their intended objective, I take it with a grain of salt. With that being said, I can't think of any agenda these people would have. I'm just not buying what they are selling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    certainly interesting to say the least, and I for one am not going to say I understand it totally.

    one other thing to add which is back from our original discussion, how many of you have seen Religulous? Please keep the Bill Maher hate to a minimum (I am not a fan either). His documentary is somewhat interesting and relates to our topic
    hmmm I am with AE on this one. very interesting, but I don't understand it fully. Would love to watch that and see some of what they were saying. Where did you see it CM??? Might try to youtube it when I get a free minute.
    Never saw the Bill Maher piece either... man I have a lot of catching up to do. Agree with YandFree though... I tend to be very cautious about what science says is proven. Look at the 1 thing that we have had years and years of research on. It is tangible, one can touch it, and yet with all the scientific understanding in the world, we still to this day cannot reproduce or even predict it... what is this awesome phenomenon??? the weather...
    Great discussion once again CM!
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    A much simpler example of what of chocolatemilk is talking about is sound. Sound can simply be described as an impulse of energy which causes waves to travel at a certain frequency. These waves cause vibrations. If there is no receptor around to convert those vibrations into what we "hear" then there is no "sound" as we know it. The old tree in the forest and nobody around to hear it. If you look at it that way, it makes sense that on an atomic level, atoms exist as energy or waves and until our receptors convert that energy into what we "see" or observe, they only exist as waves of energy.

    On a side note, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that we may all be our own god, because using the same logic above, until someone else observes me, or I observe myself, my atoms only exist as those waves of energy.

    I may have oversimplified things a bit much.

    I've said it once and I'll say it yet again. Science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible for one to exist in the presence of the other. The existence of scientific facts does not rule out the possibility or validity of religion. If God opened up the heavens and spoke to every person on the planet in the next five minutes, that act would not cancel scientific facts. I'll never understand why the most die hard followers of either science or religion cannot accept the truths found in the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    If you go back a few posts, I mention specifically the ones he doesnt fufill, which is why he was never recognized by the jews as a messiah
    One of the great ironies of the Torah is that the only Gentil that was ever mentioned as the shiach (anointed one or Messiah) is Kurus aka Cyrus the Great who was, gasp, a Persian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    A much simpler example of what of chocolatemilk is talking about is sound. Sound can simply be described as an impulse of energy which causes waves to travel at a certain frequency. These waves cause vibrations. If there is no receptor around to convert those vibrations into what we "hear" then there is no "sound" as we know it. The old tree in the forest and nobody around to hear it. If you look at it that way, it makes sense that on an atomic level, atoms exist as energy or waves and until our receptors convert that energy into what we "see" or observe, they only exist as waves of energy.

    On a side note, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that we may all be our own god, because using the same logic above, until someone else observes me, or I observe myself, my atoms only exist as those waves of energy.

    I may have oversimplified things a bit much.

    I've said it once and I'll say it yet again. Science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible for one to exist in the presence of the other. The existence of scientific facts does not rule out the possibility or validity of religion. If God opened up the heavens and spoke to every person on the planet in the next five minutes, that act would not cancel scientific facts. I'll never understand why the most die hard followers of either science or religion cannot accept the truths found in the other.
    As we know it...yet it does exist. Our inability to comprehend does not make void the existance of the uncomprehendable.

    Man has discovered and explained the power of God at work and has called it science. As a matter of fact science has already validated a good portion of the first statement in Genesis.

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
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    DD,

    I happen to be a fairly religious person, although I'm sure I have quite a bit of room for improvement. My question or statement to be more accurate is this: I believe that God has set forth certain laws or rules by which all things adhere for the most part. (I know many of the accepted rules break down on the subatomic level such as causality in which it has been proven that the "effect" can come before the "cause") Anyway, the discovery of these rules and laws is science. It is the arrogance of man, I believe, who upon discovery of these laws fails to ask the most important question. That question is not whether or not these laws exist, but who or what created them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    I've said it once and I'll say it yet again. Science and religion do not have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible for one to exist in the presence of the other. The existence of scientific facts does not rule out the possibility or validity of religion. If God opened up the heavens and spoke to every person on the planet in the next five minutes, that act would not cancel scientific facts. I'll never understand why the most die hard followers of either science or religion cannot accept the truths found in the other.
    agree with this. I have stated before. I believe that God is the Master Scientist. He knows and understands things that we cannot even grasp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    One of the great ironies of the Torah is that the only Gentil that was ever mentioned as the shiach (anointed one or Messiah) is Kurus aka Cyrus the Great who was, gasp, a Persian.
    I love that prophecy in Isaiah 44-45 that Cyrus reads and then acts as the catalyst to bring the Jews back to build the temple. He was a pagan to the Jews, but brought about much good to them. However, we need to be careful with the term "Messiah" as a noun or an adjective. In this case, he was viewed as a great "Messiah" based upon his role as a "Deliverer." This was a title of description based on his historic actions, not his devine birth or role.
    However!!!!! he is not, nor ever has he been referred to as "THE Messiah," the Anointed One (or the Christ to use the Greek). Orthodox Jews still await that coming. Their view of the Messiah is he of the lineage of David who is to rule and reign while simultaneously defeating all the Jews' enemies. THis is what many scholars who are Christian refer to as the Millennial Messiah. He who is set to rule and reign after the SECOND Coming of Jesus.
    Also, Jesus was hailed as THE Messiah by the Jews in Jerusalem right up until his death. At that point, they changed it from Messiah to great Rabi, for the true Messiah, in their view, would not be put to death (that is by those who did not convert to Christianity). They do not, as Christians do, recognize the Servant Messiah... he who was to FIRST save the world from their inward enemy and sins (See Isaiah 53 referred to as the 4th Servant Song) and then come again in the fulfillment of the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times as the Conquering Messiah set to vanquish the world from physical enemies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    As we know it...yet it does exist. Our inability to comprehend does not make void the existance of the uncomprehendable.

    Man has discovered and explained the power of God at work and has called it science. As a matter of fact science has already validated a good portion of the first statement in Genesis.

    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
    ^^ This^^
    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    DD,

    I happen to be a fairly religious person, although I'm sure I have quite a bit of room for improvement. My question or statement to be more accurate is this: I believe that God has set forth certain laws or rules by which all things adhere for the most part. (I know many of the accepted rules break down on the subatomic level such as causality in which it has been proven that the "effect" can come before the "cause") Anyway, the discovery of these rules and laws is science. It is the arrogance of man, I believe, who upon discovery of these laws fails to ask the most important question. That question is not whether or not these laws exist, but who or what created them.
    I would also add - Who abides by them - as well
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    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    DD,

    I happen to be a fairly religious person, although I'm sure I have quite a bit of room for improvement. My question or statement to be more accurate is this: I believe that God has set forth certain laws or rules by which all things adhere for the most part. (I know many of the accepted rules break down on the subatomic level such as causality in which it has been proven that the "effect" can come before the "cause") Anyway, the discovery of these rules and laws is science. It is the arrogance of man, I believe, who upon discovery of these laws fails to ask the most important question. That question is not whether or not these laws exist, but who or what created them.
    You and I are in agreement. You stated my sentiment more clearly. Thank you.

    EDIT: Hence my quote "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Science has established that there was a beginning, there there was a creation, but has failed to substantiate evidence to give credit to a Creator...yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    One of the great ironies of the Torah is that the only Gentil that was ever mentioned as the shiach (anointed one or Messiah) is Kurus aka Cyrus the Great who was, gasp, a Persian.
    It is really silly IMO or anyone to think that the Messianic prophecies were fufilled. There were countless at the time who were trying to fufill, and also failed in the same manner as Yeshua.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    It is really silly IMO or anyone to think that the Messianic prophecies were fufilled. There were countless at the time who were trying to fufill, and also failed in the same manner as Yeshua.
    I agree. I just find it ironic given the current state of affairs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I was watching something very interesting yesterday I thought I would share with you guys. It was about God and science's quest to find him. A very new and recently up to date documentary was narrated by Morgan Freemon (great voice).

    I'm sure most of you are familiar with wave particle duality? Well, quick thing, it has been proven scientifically that at the quantum level, atoms do not exist as solids but as waves UNLESS, they are observed. So look at a chair, turn your back away from it, and it's been proven that the chair pretty much disappears into waves or energy UNTIL you look at it again. Don't bother debating this. This is WELL established in the scientific community.

    Well, what other kinds of reality have this property? ...........

    Video games... Simulations.... The SIMS. Their world does not exist until it is observed upon by the controller. The SIMS creator got on the show and said we are living in a giant simulation. That the laws of the universe completely coincide with how they create simulations. Gave me chills.

    Well then they got into individuality, and consciousness. We obviously are not being controlled by a "Gamer." However, they then pointed to research that had been done with artificial intelligence... or A.I. They selected a bunch of people to have a conversation with this super A.I, and also have a conversation with a real human being. Surprise surprise, nobody could predict at all which one was the real human and which one the computer. This was showing that our perception of other people being conscious is flawed. And everyone may as well be an A.I. The only real focus point you know exists.... is YOU! You may be the only one playing the game of life. You may be the embodied gamer. You may be the creator. You may be God.

    Absolutely amazing documentary.

    What do you guys think of this?
    It is true that nothing is real until it is observed. The problem is that we literally impose a reality through that observation. So we see an isolated component of reality that we can detect, and ONLY what we can detect. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg of all possible realities. Quantum waves collapse under observation to form reality. We are all waves of energy, being held together by resonate forces that create our subjective human impression of a physical reality. In an objective sense, it's really not what it seems though! It's something more like The Matrix or along those lines.

    Just a few months ago a study revealed that our eyes emit a form of energy that literally impacts it's target. It's the reason you can "feel" somebody watching you, even if you can't visually locate them. This makes it easier to understand how observation modulates reality.

    The Bible states that ALL things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. That means if you can think it, then it's necessarily a reality option that is lawfully achievable. That doesn't mean man should pursue ALL things though, and that's how we fell out of grace, reaching for advanced knowledge before we were a mature enough species to receive it with the discernment to properly apply it. Now we are basically on time out, for playing in the street when we were told not to. It's for our own safety from a loving but disappointed parent, it's not some stupid pointless punishment. That's where satan exploits a man if that man has no standard of spiritual discernment, he offers powers (money, knowledge) in exchange for worshiping him and pushing his agenda. He took Christ to the top of a hill while Christ was vulnerable, and offered Him the same deal, but Jesus didn't take the bait.
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    Great post D!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    certainly interesting to say the least, and I for one am not going to say I understand it totally.
    It's hard to understand without going through quantum physics. But in quantum theory (the theory that brings you computers, satellites, lasers, weapons of mass destruction--the theory that will excel us into the far future) it states that particles are just waves of potentials (they don't exist) UNTIL an observer observes the particle (at that moment, the potentials all collapse into one potential and put that particle in space time).

    Now change a particle to a chair.... and the same laws apply

    Very weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    Do I take the red pill or the blue pill? It seems a little out there to say a chair is no longer there if you don't observe it. And my only criticism of WELL ESTABLISHED SCIENCE is the Anglia University scandal putting out deceptive SCIENCE on global warming. When the leading scientist in that field get caught making up evidence or covering up what doesn't match their intended objective, I take it with a grain of salt. With that being said, I can't think of any agenda these people would have. I'm just not buying what they are selling.
    I didn't want anyone arguing quantum theory. You cannot compare this at all to that scandal and you MUST accept what I said. It lays at the foundation of our most marvelous technological advancements yet. This is proven and established by some of the greatest minds in the world: Bohr, Einstein, Shrodinger... etc. This is real stuff we are dealing with proven through experiments. Trust me youngandfree... denial was my first thoughts about this. You are forced to accept it in the end. It is proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    On a side note, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that we may all be our own god, because using the same logic above, until someone else observes me, or I observe myself, my atoms only exist as those waves of energy.
    It is not a stretch Atj. You call yourself a religious man in your next post... what lies at the heart of Christianity? That God dwells within us. It lies in Hinduism that we are all part of the divine spark. It has been said through history that we (Mankind) is of divine essence. I don't doubt it. Look at us, and look at the rest of the universe. I swear we are more marvelous than all of the universe.

    Also...

    You are always observing yourself. It's impossible not to. So YOU will always be there by your own observation. But how do you know about other people? How do you know they don't become waves of energy when you don't observe them (through all your senses). You can never catch them in the act of being waves of energy... yet science has PROVEN they become so. What do you make of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    It is true that nothing is real until it is observed. The problem is that we literally impose a reality through that observation. So we see an isolated component of reality that we can detect, and ONLY what we can detect. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg of all possible realities. Quantum waves collapse under observation to form reality. We are all waves of energy, being held together by resonate forces that create our subjective human impression of a physical reality. In an objective sense, it's really not what it seems though! It's something more like The Matrix or along those lines.

    Just a few months ago a study revealed that our eyes emit a form of energy that literally impacts it's target. It's the reason you can "feel" somebody watching you, even if you can't visually locate them. This makes it easier to understand how observation modulates reality.
    Well said D. You understand it very well.

    I wanted to ask you, why did the fish, in the bottom of the pits of the ocean, begin developing an air bladder millions of years before it set foot on land... as if knowing this was the eventual plan.

    Is this God's plan? Did God plan this?

    If so, it seems God operates under his own scientific rules. He doesn't seem to break them. He didn't magically put lungs in the fish. He did it through the natural worlds laws.

    I feel as though God would not simply appear to human beings in the same sense that he follows the natural worlds laws. Your mind may see him in a dream, it may see him in a hallucination... but I doubt God truly enters our reality. I feel as though the prophetic visions humanity have had were more of a mind's construct then Gods. What do you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post

    Is this God's plan? Did God plan this?

    If so, it seems God operates under his own scientific rules. He doesn't seem to break them. He didn't magically put lungs in the fish. He did it through the natural worlds laws.

    I feel as though God would not simply appear to human beings in the same sense that he follows the natural worlds laws. Your mind may see him in a dream, it may see him in a hallucination... but I doubt God truly enters our reality. I feel as though the prophetic visions humanity have had were more of a mind's construct then Gods. What do you think?
    Ok totally agree with the bolded statement. I have been saying this for some time. I believe God to be the master scientist. He who knows the laws, uses the laws, and abides by the laws that either HE set forth, or are just there. Either way, it doesn't matter.
    The underlined portion is the part that I have issue with. God appeared to man people. Jesus appeared to Paul, Saul at the time, and looked every bit as real as you and I. Angels have appeared. If you notice throughout scripture that when heavenly beings appear the first thing that they say is "Fear Not" True God abides by the science and Laws beyond what we could never understand, BUT his knowledge of them FAR exceeds that of our own. To most Christians, the existence of heavenly beings is real and tangible. There are even records of people actually touching the body of Christ after his resurrection to prove to each that what they were saying is in fact real.
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    Chocolatemilk,

    In the interest of saving space on here, I won't quote your response.

    I agree 100% with the observability issues. There is a potential (however small) that a large number of electrons in the atoms which form me exist in a location millions of light years away. It is only until those electrons (or the energy waves)are observed that the potential coalesces into what we discern as reality. (Ie. all the electrons are circling the nucleus according to the atomic models) This is another interesting facet of quantum physics. You can impart an energy on a subatomic particle such as reversing it's charge and cause an effect on its "linked" particle regardless of the distance which separates them. It could be light years away.

    Another aspect of this is that it is impossible to observe something in space and time at the same time. I don't know if I can explain that adequately here so I'm not going to try.

    As for the possibility of us all being gods or god-like. I do believe that we were created in the image of God. I think the word "image" is one that is open for interpretation. I do not believe that we are the physical image of God. I also believe that God dwells within each one of us regardless of our faith or lack of it. One of the things that those who do not believe in God or Jesus use as an example to defend the lack of faith is the fact that throughout time there are numerous "messiah" stories and creation stories across cultures separated by time and location. I personally believe that this is evidence of a creator. I believe that humans were imparted with a knowledge of God and it is no coincidence that so many of the stories are so similar. As for us being Gods ourselves, that's where I personally feel it's a stretch. I believe that God is all knowing. While the human species will advance and gain more knowledge, I don't believe we will ever come close to being all knowing.

    On a side note, there is a group who believe that since everything is made up of energy including us, there is a "collective" knowledge or energy which transcends time and space. The thought is that since we are energy, we can train ourselves to tap into this collective knowledge and become god-like. It is their belief that this collective energy is God. It's definitely interesting to contemplate.

    Anyone can feel free to slam any statements I've made here as I am aware that I do not have a PhD in quantum physics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    ... I believe God to be the master scientist. He who knows the laws, uses the laws, and abides by the laws that either HE set forth, or are just there. ...
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Army Guy again.

    Yes, I agree. He is by definition of God, THE Master Scientist. I composed a short essay highlighting some of the primary scientific arguments for God:

    Does science support the existence of God?

    Some people believe that science and religion are incompatible. That may be so, but religion is not the issue I'm defending. Organized religion is man-made and subject to corruption. I am generally not fond of it. Nevertheless, God is real and that data supports it. I am about to demonstrate this with a brief, scientific explanation for those of you who don't know God. The time is close when you will have to make an eternal choice. I never push my beliefs on anybody, but consider the logic and think about it for yourselves. The reconciliation of science and God is fairly simple...

    The Second Law: Life violates entropy and supports the idea of providence.

    The psalmist says, "Great are the works of the Lord, pondered by all those who delight in them." Basically, every scientist seeks to understand the mind of God. Even the most hard-core agnostic or dietistic scientist (as I use to be) accepts on faith that the universe is ordered. There is a rational basis to existence that is evident in this order. This is shown in the laws of science and math. These things are very predicable. So I think many scientists will agree that there is a God. How else can you explain order and design? The Second Law of thermodynamics states that entropy (or disorder) always increases with time, so we basically live in a decaying universe. All you have to do is stop making repairs around the house to see that principle at work! Eventually, the entire universe will "burn out" as it continues to expand and be reduced to nothing more that low level, background radiation, mostly in the form of microwaves. How then does life develop and thrive when the whole universe is in a state of decay? How is it that there are sophisticated, self-replicating organisms in the universe, known as life, that develop in spite of the Second Law? It is know as the Anthropic Principle and it shows divine providence without a doubt. If there was not a God that favored mankind, it simply could not have developed. Life shows an extremely high level of order and complexity that must have been created because order is not the natural state of the universe, disorder is. In other words, there is design and you can’t have design without a designer! Therefore, it stands to scientific reason that there should be a God.

    Darwinian Evolution VS Divine Evolution...

    Atheistic scientists are a different story. They believe that life resulted from random combinations of simple molecules in a spontaneous fashion and that the universe just happened without cause or that it always existed in a static state, but that's not mathematically legitimate and does not agree with common observation. Even Darwin said of the human eye that the odds that it "could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." Darwinian evolution is simply not possible. It requires transitional life forms that do not exist in the fossil record. They are known as the "missing links". Why are there well-defined species in the fossil record with no intermediate forms? There are gigantic gaps in the record that can't be explained. I can sympathize with the rational of an agnostic scientist, but the atheistic scientist cannot be taken seriously. There's just too much evidence against the spontaneous appearance and progression of life or "naturalism" as some call it. Creation is the best explanation, and that is obviously precluded if there if no creator. Besides, if law and order are really the products of a mindless natural process, the human mind must be viewed as an accident too, in a series of many accidents. If that's so, how can we have any confidence that our mind could even recognize the truth anyway? How could a concept like truth even be possible? It just doesn't make logical sense without a God. There would be no need and no reason for any of this observed order, plus the observation itself would necessarily be questionable.

    The First Law: Conservation necessitates creation to explain existence.

    The First Law of thermodynamics is a fundamental, scientific property of the universe that also strongly supports the existence of God. It states that energy can change forms, but cannot be created or destroyed. That means that the overall energy of a finite system remains constant. Man can only refashion existing materials, but can't actually create anything new. The First Law shows that the universe must have had a finite beginning, and that it could not have just created itself. Just like naturalism can't explain the development of life, there isn’t any known natural process that can account for it's own origin. This scientific law is directly oppositional to a godless beginning. The reason energy can not be destroyed is stated in the Bible: God "upholds all things by the word of his power" Heb.1:3 and "preserves and keeps in store his creation." Peter 3:7 So basically, the Second Law shows that the universe must have had a beginning and the First Law proves it could not have just begun by itself. The total energy of the universe is constant, but the amount of available (or ordered) energy is steadily decreasing over time into a disordered form. If you could go back in time, this would reverse itself and order would increase. You would reach a point where total energy was equal to available energy. That was the beginning of time, and time can't go back any farther than that point. That point is known as a singularity and is part of the mystery of a singular God. Since energy can't just create itself, and there was no other imperative for it to exist, there is only one logical scientific conclusion: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Really, there are no other satisfactory explanations that match the known facts.

    The Cosmological Argument demonstrates there must be some God out there.

    There are only 4 possibilities as to the origin of the universe and thus the existence of life. This is an argument of universal causation and can be summarized like this:

    - The universe has no creator/cause.

    1) The universe has never existed so it has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but it’s also rather absurd. We are here! We can all agree that we do exist and something is going on here, right? If this universe is all just an illusion, then the argument can stop here because the question is just an illusion too.

    2) The universe has always existed in a steady state and has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but is also disproved by the First Law and not supported by the Second Law. Mathematically, a static, infinite universe just can't work and doesn't match scientific observations. This is like saying you've always been alive, and will also never die. Once again, we all know better than that.

    - The universe has a creator/cause.

    3) The universe has a beginning and created itself. This is a formal contradiction because how can something create itself before it even exists? Nothing finite can cause itself, because it is connected to another, prior cause. Sorry Darwin, self-creation is scientifically disproved and lacks the imperative that this cause and effect universe requires. That's like saying you created yourself, and did it before you were even born!

    4) The universe has a beginning and God created it. By a process of elimination, if we exist in a finite universe that had a beginning that could not have caused itself, then God is the only other explanation. In other words, God is the uncaused cause. The universe exists because of a first cause, there cannot be an infinite series of causes. Therefore, the first cause had to be God.

    Statistical odds of random, advanced life (does God play dice?)

    Let's look at the math involved in universal considerations. Consider a very simple microorganism consisting of 200 cells. Let's not even consider the math on where the cells came from (that's too much math and I'm not that smart) but just think of the combination of those cells to form a primitive organism. The probability of forming that ordered cell system by chance is 1 in 200 factorial. That factorial (expressed as 200!) can be calculated by multiplying all the numbers together from 1 to 200 and yields a result of 1 chance in 10E_375. I will not bother to type out 375 zeros, you get the point. You actually have much better odds of jumping out of a plane with no parachute and surviving the impact every single day for the rest of your life even if you lived to be 100 years old. Would you really gamble your life on odds like that? If you deny the likelihood of God, that’s what you’re doing. As the complexity of a system increases, the odds of an ordered outcome occurring by chance become exponentially dismal, even for the random existence of a simple 200 celled organism, much less a human being. It's safe to say that it takes much more "faith" to be an unbeliever than it does to believe in God.

    Which God specifically?

    So maybe you're starting to take the reality of God a bit more seriously, but why Christianity? Many of the great scientists were Christian, like Boyle, Newton, Pasteur, Joule, Kelvin, Faraday, Flemming, etc.. Biblical creationism correlates with the known scientific facts extremely well. Naturalism doesn't, and neither do any other religions I’ve studies. I have studied this in depth, applied many branches of science and analyzed the facts. I have tested it in my own life to see if it holds scientific truth. No other religion in the world has a god that claimed he could provide what Christ did. No other religious leader even made the claim that they would return from the dead. Only the one, true God of the universe has the power over life and death. Only the God of the Bible even made that claim. So, either Christ is who he said he was (the sovereign God of all) or he was a total lunatic, but he can’t be both.

    What is faith and can it be justified?

    Faith is the substance of things hoped for, so once you see the manifestations of your faith becoming reality, that proof in turn substantiates your faith. Don't just believe blindly, faith demonstrates and justifies itself over time. God cannot be seen (at least I have not seen him) but can be clearly detected by indirect means, just like the position and velocity of sub-atomic particles are measured. It’s scientifically explainable by the Exclusion Principle. You can never know the exact position and velocity of a particle at the same time because one is necessarily modified while observing the other, thus one of those measures can be directly observed and the other must be determined by indirect means. It does not mean that the particle lacks either property of position or velocity, only that they cannot be directly measured together. It's the same with God. You may never observe his existence directly, but when you see the effect God has in your life, it becomes possible to validate the cause.

    The Third Law (angels and demons)

    Newton’s Third Law states that there can be no force without an opposing force to balance it. That means that good cannot even be defined unless there is evil as a reference. In other words, forces come in pairs, so the Third Law would validate that some force should exist in opposition to God. Looking at our world today, the presence of a strong evil force has a scientific explanation that fits this observation. Why would somebody support evil and not side with God? Maybe because they have been deceived since childhood. People have been conditioned to believe that God makes a bunch of restrictive rules, or that they have to work their way to heaven by some church doctrine. Has God ever asked you for anything, or is it really some organization with their rulebooks and their hands in your pocket? God made you free! God is not looking down from heaven shaking his finger, waiting for you to screw up so he can strike you down. That's what some churches and religious establishments want you to think, and that's definitely what your demonic enemies (some people call them Aliens) want you to believe, but it’s a huge lie. You don't need anyone else in order to have a relationship with God. All you have to do is seek truth in prayer, and he does the rest. If you accept what he is, he’ll accept you too, and I can personally testify to this truth. Think about it and consider that the existence of God is more scientifically probably than not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    ... You can impart an energy on a subatomic particle such as reversing it's charge and cause an effect on its "linked" particle regardless of the distance which separates them. It could be light years away. ...
    Yes, it's called non-locality (entanglement), when 2 particles/quanta communicate faster than the speed of light! That's a great concept to try to wrap your head around. I love thinking about the implications of such things!

    It's very apparent to me that we are just a tiny part of something really, really HUGE, and no matter what cards I'm dealt in life I am still honored and humbled to be a small part of His plan. I'm not sure what this universe is really capable of or what God has planned with all this exactly, but it's safe to say it's really amazing and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, the wonders and revelations that God has in store for those who choose to trust in Him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post

    As for the possibility of us all being gods or god-like. I do believe that we were created in the image of God. I think the word "image" is one that is open for interpretation. I do not believe that we are the physical image of God. I also believe that God dwells within each one of us regardless of our faith or lack of it. One of the things that those who do not believe in God or Jesus use as an example to defend the lack of faith is the fact that throughout time there are numerous "messiah" stories and creation stories across cultures separated by time and location. I personally believe that this is evidence of a creator. I believe that humans were imparted with a knowledge of God and it is no coincidence that so many of the stories are so similar. As for us being Gods ourselves, that's where I personally feel it's a stretch. I believe that God is all knowing. While the human species will advance and gain more knowledge, I don't believe we will ever come close to being all knowing.
    I am not really sure if I agree on this. The Messiah stories are not necessarily a sign of creator, but to me more of a sign that cultures have passed down different stories many times over, and to me negating alot of the later stories. Just my 2 cents

    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    On a side note, there is a group who believe that since everything is made up of energy including us, there is a "collective" knowledge or energy which transcends time and space. The thought is that since we are energy, we can train ourselves to tap into this collective knowledge and become god-like. It is their belief that this collective energy is God. It's definitely interesting to contemplate.
    This is also acient asian beliefs. Very similar to Hinduism and Buddhism as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    One of the things that those who do not believe in God or Jesus use as an example to defend the lack of faith is the fact that throughout time there are numerous "messiah" stories and creation stories across cultures separated by time and location. I personally believe that this is evidence of a creator. I believe that humans were imparted with a knowledge of God and it is no coincidence that so many of the stories are so similar.
    Jesus warned of this. So those you look to these so called "messiah's" have been fooled. Evidence that what Jesus said did happen. It confirms faith, not denies it.



    Matthew 24: 23*“Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24*For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25*Look! I have forewarned YOU"
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Jesus warned of this. So those you look to these so called "messiah's" have been fooled. Evidence that what Jesus said did happen. It confirms faith, not denies it.



    Matthew 24: 23*“Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24*For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25*Look! I have forewarned YOU"
    Are you familiar with arguing in a circle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Are you familiar with arguing in a circle?
    Yes.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Yes.
    Then you do realize how you're committing this fallacy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Then you do realize how you're committing this fallacy.
    Quite contrary. The evidence has been provided. Remember a more recent "christ" figure David Koresh? There's a pretty big list of men that have claimed to be the "christ" or messiah. I'm not saying there hasn't been these figures. Neither did the real Jesus Christ say there would be none.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Quite contrary. The evidence has been provided. Remember a more recent "christ" figure David Koresh? There's a pretty big list of men that have claimed to be the "christ" or messiah. I'm not saying there hasn't been these figures. Neither did the real Jesus Christ say there would be none.
    by the same token, Yeshua could fall under the false christ moniker based on not fufilling the prophecies like the others
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Quite contrary. The evidence has been provided. Remember a more recent "christ" figure David Koresh? There's a pretty big list of men that have claimed to be the "christ" or messiah. I'm not saying there hasn't been these figures. Neither did the real Jesus Christ say there would be none.
    You're using the Bible as evidence for your point, yet it is the very element that is in question. That is the definition of arguing in a circle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    by the same token, Yeshua could fall under the false christ moniker based on not fufilling the prophecies like the others
    Your comment sounds very "Jewish" for lack of a better term.

    In the Encyclopedia Judaica it explains, "By the first century, Messianic expectations were high. The Messiah was expected to be “a charismatically endowed descendant of David who the Jews of the Roman period believed would be raised up by God to break the yoke of the heathen and to reign over a restored kingdom of Israel.” However, the militant Messiah the Jews were expecting was not forthcoming."

    A majority of the Jews at the time rejected Jesus as the messiah based on what they thought was going to happen. In "Their" mind he didn't live up to the expectations. But was their view correct? They thought Jesus was going to be some political force but Jesus has always said he was "no part of this world". They didn't pay attention to the things written.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

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    I actually addressed this a few pages back. Based soley on the OT there were at least 4 messianic prophecias that he did not fufill. The messianic prophecies are not something imo that we cannot just pick and choose which to consider applicable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I actually addressed this a few pages back. Based soley on the OT there were at least 4 messianic prophecias that he did not fufill. The messianic prophecies are not something imo that we cannot just pick and choose which to consider applicable.
    I'm still finding it odd that your view point has a strong resemblance of jewish origin. Some of the things you mentioned have been used as a excuse not to believe. If I didn't know better I might think that you are Jewish and defending your faith
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I'm still finding it odd that your view point has a strong resemblance of jewish origin. Some of the things you mentioned have been used as a excuse not to believe. If I didn't know better I might think that you are Jewish and defending your faith
    Its funny you say that. I was born jewish, however, in no way shape or form am I a practicing jew.

    With that said, I am using the obvious and quite reasonable argument of the jews of the time. There had to be a reason that the jews contemporary to jesus did not see him as a messiah. He did not fufill the OT messianic prophesies. Again, this is not an instance where we can pick and choose which of the prophesies we use. We either use all of them or none of them. It just doesnt fit for jesus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its funny you say that. I was born jewish, however, in no way shape or form am I a practicing jew. ...
    Perhaps there's an genetic component?

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    Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs' | News.com.au

    Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs'

    AFTER 10 years of comparative slumber, the sun is waking up - and it's got astronomers on full alert.

    This week several US media outlets reported that NASA was warning the massive flare that caused spectacular light shows on Earth earlier this month was just a precursor to a massive solar storm building that had the potential to wipe out the entire planet's power grid.

    NASA has since rebutted those reports, saying it could come "100 years away or just 100 days", but an Australian astronomer says the space community is betting on the sooner scenario rather than the latter.

    Despite its rebuttal, NASA's been watching out for this storm since 2006 and reports from the US this week claim the storms could hit on that most Hollywood of disaster dates - 2012.

    Similar storms back in 1859 and 1921 caused worldwide chaos, wiping out telegraph wires on a massive scale.

    The 2012 storm has the potential to be even more disruptive.

    "The general consensus among general astronomers (and certainly solar astronomers) is that this coming Solar maximum (2012 but possibly later into 2013) will be the most violent in 100 years," astronomy lecturer and columnist Dave Reneke said.

    "A bold statement and one taken seriously by those it will affect most, namely airline companies, communications companies and anyone working with modern GPS systems.

    "They can even trip circuit breakers and knock out orbiting satellites, as has already been done this year."

    Regardless, the point astronomers are making is it doesn't matter if the next Solar Max isn't the worst in history, or even as bad as the 1859 storms.

    It's the fact that there hasn't been one since the mid-80s. Commodore had just launched the Amiga and the only digital storm making the news was Tetris.

    No one really knows what effect the 2012-2013 Solar Max will have on today's digital-reliant society.

    Dr Richard Fisher, director of NASA’s Heliophysics division, told Mr Reneke the super storm would hit like "a bolt of lightning”, causing catastrophic consequences for the world’s health, emergency services and national security unless precautions are taken.

    US government officials earlier this year took part in a "tabletop exercise" in Boulder, Colorado, to map out what might happen if the Earth was hit with a storm as intense as the 1859 and 1921 storms.

    The 1859 storm was of a similar size to that predicted by NASA to hit within the next three years – one of decreased activity, but more powerful eruptions.

    NASA said that a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences found that if a similar storm occurred today, it could cause “$1 to 2 trillion in damages to society's high-tech infrastructure and require four to 10 years for complete recovery”.

    Staff at the Space Weather Prediction Center in Colorado, which hosted the exercise, said with our reliance on satellite technology, such an event could hit the Earth with the magnitude of a global hurricane or earthquake.

    The reason for the concern comes as the sun enters a phase known as Solar Cycle 24.

    All the alarming news building around the event is being fuelled by two things.

    The first is a book by disaster expert Lawrence E. Joseph, Guilty of Apocalypse: The Case Against 2012, in which he claims the "Hurricane Katrina for the Earth" may cause unprecedented planetwide upheaval.

    The second is a theory that claims sunspots travel through the sun on a "conveyor belt" similar to the Great Ocean Conveyor Belt which controls weather on Earth.

    The belt carries magnetic fields through the sun. When they hit the surface, they explode as sunspots.

    Weakened, they then travel back through the sun's core to recharge.

    It all happens on a rough 40-50-year cycle, according to solar physicist David Hathaway of the National Space Science and Technology Center in the US.

    He says when the belt speeds up, lots of magnetic fields are collected, which points to more intense future activity.

    "The belt was turning fast in 1986-1996," Prof Hathaway said.

    "Old magnetic fields swept up then should reappear as big sunspots in 2010-2011."

    Most experts agree, although those who put the date of Solar Max in 2012 are getting the most press.

    They claim satellites will be aged by 50 years, rendering GPS even more useless than ever, and the blast will have the equivalent energy of 100 million hydrogen bombs.

    “We know it is coming but we don’t know how bad it is going to be,” Dr Fisher told Mr Reneke in the most recent issue of Australasian Science.

    “Systems will just not work. The flares change the magnetic field on the Earth and it’s rapid, just like a lightning bolt.

    "That’s the solar effect.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Perhaps there's an genetic component?

    Maybe me and Jesus.
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    you are nuts!!! lol
    great discussion here though. It is just a difference of interpretation though. Christians believe there are 2 comings of the Messiah. The Servant Messiah and the Millennial Messiah. The way I view the scriptures and in my readings I see that ALL the Old Testament prophets pointed to these 2 as well. Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel just to name a few.
    However, putting myself in the shoes (or sandals as the case may be) of the Jews in the time of Christ, it does not surprise me that they wanted, even lusted for the Millennial Messiah. They had been under some sort of oppression for most of their existence. and the Roman's were not the nicest of occupiers either... remember the 1000's crucified near Nazareth a few years before Jesus came??? In their shoes I would have looked for that Messiah as well.
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