The 2012 bug is catching on!

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Lets do this one at a time. You seem to selectively quote scripture that skews the observer to see it the way you would like. The previous portion of that chapter is very telling:
    isnt that the same technique used by theists all the time? At the end of the day, any excerpt from the OT or NT can be taken and made to seem one way or the other.

    My major concern with OT and NT is the countless mistranslations based on years of retranslating. Right there we see where major messages of the stories would be lost or completely confused, and in essence, seem to not have the same meaning as intended.

    This of course is regardless of the fact that both books gently "borrow" most of their information and stories from much earlier sources.


  2. gently "borrow"

    lol your just being kind....er Gentle
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I refer to the Bible God... are you not a follower of the Bible then?
    I'm not sure you know the God of the Bible. Did you grow up in a Christian home? Perhaps you know a game called "church". And your preconceptions of the Bible are how they trained you to understand it? That's not a good substitute for a real relationship with God. Once you develop that personal relationship, the Spirit guides your understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    You know what's flawed about what you said right here D... Ok, you agree that bad people cannot be put in heaven. Now, we are all sinners. We sin constantly. It's impossible to live a perfect life.

    What happens all of the sudden when we get to heaven? Is it sinless in there? Do we change forms so we cannot sin? What is gonna stop us from sinning in heaven?

    There must be something.

    So then, why don't bad people just be put through this spiritual cleansing that is needed to enter heaven. Why put anyone in hell? You know a process must be undergone anyways that transforms us humans into perfect beings that qualify for heaven. Why not make the bad people perfect beings when you CAN. What kind of a sick God wouldn't do this to all of his creations if he COULD. And he can, and does, and will.... to some. Not all loving as he proclaims IMO.
    This is a solid question, and it's important to grasp. God has the capacity to perfect everything right now. In fact that was the plan from the start, a perfect species living an amazing existence! So why doesn't He fix it? Because free will is an imperative. The potential for evil is necessary. Bad is needed in order to define good. So why is free will so essential, especially if it allows for the possibility of sin? Because it also allows for the possibility of love, and without love, nothing else would matter. We can make bad choices if we choose. We can abuse our free will to do evil things. But freedom is nonetheless necessary, even though some choose bad. If we didn't have the freedom to choose, we couldn't choose love either, and we'd have no personal involvement or potential to evolve into anything more.

    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I have had many a times where the teacher has allowed me to re-test. There is no re-tests with God is what you're saying. My goodness are humans showing more compassion than Almighty God? It appears so the more I move through life.
    Has any teacher ever given you a 20 year test?! God gives you a whole lifetime of second chances and do-overs. Choose you this day while you still can, because you've had plenty of second chances and extensions bro. There will be no excuses when you turn your test in.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    You never really stated why you felt this way. Wanting war and destruction so the savior will come seems a bit twisted. There are very specific things listed in the Bible that will happen before Jesus will return. Just creating war and famine isn't going to make it happen. One thing that must happen is the Temple must be rebuilt. Last I checked it hasn't yet. Israel has to be attacked and their attackers Will be destroyed in such a way that only God could do to protect his chosen people. All nations will turn against Israel, which is slowly happening. So if you followed Christ and know what will happen before his return, you would have known it is still a ways off.
    Well said!

    I think guys like CM that abandoned their Christianity were like the seeds that fell on rocky ground. Their faith never took root, so of course they fell away in time. Prophecy is just stating the future before it happens, so that it's accuracy can be validated 1000's of years later. Watch though, even as it unfolds, I bet many of these same guys will be in total denial and making every excuse possible to ignore it away! That's the only reason I still waste my breath on this, so that maybe a few of my friends here might come to their senses when they finally realize it's true.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Nice try but the fact remains YOUR god kills Men Women Children, in my example 70000

    And lets get one thing straight I do not need YOUR gods approval, since I would NEVER follow a crazed dictator.

    Again I say IF you call yourself a CHRISTIAN you CAN NOT ignore the atrocities commited by your God.
    Really, then who are you following right now? Why are you away from your family, fighting in a foreign land? Fighting people that never did a dam thing to you or yours. And oh yes, you'd rape and kill women. You'd kill babies too if you haven't already, if they told you to do it. And the one's you follow aren't even gods, but you follow them anyway for a paycheck!

    I suggest you think real hard about what YOU are putting YOUR faith in, and the hypocrisy of your opinions, soldier boy. Then if you find yourself innocent, you can pick those stones back up and keep throwing them at God and everybody else, from that glass house of yours.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I'm not sure you know the God of the Bible. Did you grow up in a Christian home? Perhaps you know a game called "church". And your preconceptions of the Bible are how they trained you to understand it? That's not a good substitute for a real relationship with God. Once you develop that personal relationship, the Spirit guides your understanding.



    This is a solid question, and it's important to grasp. God has the capacity to perfect everything right now. In fact that was the plan from the start, a perfect species living an amazing existence! So why doesn't He fix it? Because free will is an imperative. The potential for evil is necessary. Bad is needed in order to define good. So why is free will so essential, especially if it allows for the possibility of sin? Because it also allows for the possibility of love, and without love, nothing else would matter. We can make bad choices if we choose. We can abuse our free will to do evil things. But freedom is nonetheless necessary, even though some choose bad. If we didn't have the freedom to choose, we couldn't choose love either, and we'd have no personal involvement or potential to evolve into anything more.



    Has any teacher ever given you a 20 year test?! God gives you a whole lifetime of second chances and do-overs. Choose you this day while you still can, because you've had plenty of second chances and extensions bro. There will be no excuses when you turn your test in.
    Allright DR.D

    Freewill
    They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God....

    Well no. Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible. To put it in a nice way.


    Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

    Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

    This god you say you have a personal relationship with, he is all knowing, all powerfull....omniscient ??? Yes ?
    When god created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A PERFECTLY COMPASSIONATE being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible...


  7. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Really, then who are you following right now? Why are you away from your family, fighting in a foreign land? Fighting people that never did a dam thing to you or yours. And oh yes, you'd rape and kill women. You'd kill babies too if you haven't already, if they told you to do it. And the one's you follow aren't even gods, but you follow them anyway for a paycheck!

    I suggest you think real hard about what YOU are putting YOUR faith in, and the hypocrisy of your opinions, soldier boy. Then if you find yourself innocent, you can pick those stones back up and keep throwing them at God and everybody else, from that glass house of yours.
    I do what I am GOOD AT and a make a pretty penny doing it too.
    Have you not figured out by now I have no belief in a supernatural god ?
  8. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Nice try but the fact remains YOUR god kills Men Women Children, in my example 70000

    And lets get one thing straight I do not need YOUR gods approval, since I would NEVER follow a crazed dictator.

    Again I say IF you call yourself a CHRISTIAN you CAN NOT ignore the atrocities commited by your God.
    I certainly do not ignore them. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
    Life is a terminal condition.
  9. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    isnt that the same technique used by theists all the time? At the end of the day, any excerpt from the OT or NT can be taken and made to seem one way or the other.

    My major concern with OT and NT is the countless mistranslations based on years of retranslating. Right there we see where major messages of the stories would be lost or completely confused, and in essence, seem to not have the same meaning as intended.

    This of course is regardless of the fact that both books gently "borrow" most of their information and stories from much earlier sources.
    I do completely agree with the potential for this to cause misinterpretations.

    You and are are smart enough to know the inherent risk at taking the text as translated on simple face value. When I study the word of God as is presented in the Bible I do origin interpretation. IOW our pastor has a doctorate in bible theology and presents it as originally penned.
    Life is a terminal condition.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I certainly do not ignore them. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
    sure

    God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is...
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Allright DR.D

    imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A PERFECTLY COMPASSIONATE being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible...

    something you forget my friend, a compassionate and JUST God cannot control the lives and mistakes we as men make. We each have our agency to do with our lives what we will.
    As for your quote above, what makes a true MAN is his ability to overcome the suffering in this life and for us to become what God intended for us to become. Where would we be without trial, how could we grow and become better??? Whenever I am going through something extremely difficult in my own life I take a minute and reflect... what does God want me to learn from this? It is usually when I find the answer to that question that the issue is nearly resolved.
    Working on living

  12. I will let another freethinker jump in and play. For now its gym time

    take care guys
  13. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    We were created perfect and God walked with us in the garden. We received the sentence of death when we chose disobedience in the garden. Man has disobeyed yet wants to blame God for the consequences that come with our decision to disobey. My disobedience is just as worthy of death as it has ever been.
    Life is a terminal condition.

  14. Well said my friend. It is time for us all to stop blaming God for the actions of men...
    Working on living

  15. Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    ... First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. ...
    Well I never made that argument, that freewill was necessary for "happiness". I think freewill is necessary for a spectrum to exist, and love is the high point of human experience. I know lots of people have concluded that happiness is the prime goal of life, but I have decided that love and truth are greater aspirations. Those goals generally correspond with happiness, but not always.

    It's just like your DI. Did he want soldiers that followed him reluctantly, or was he looking for a few good men who actually wanted to learn and follow? Those are the guys he wanted to train, the guys who wanted to serve with their best, from their heart.

    That's how God operates too. He's not some cosmic rapist who forces you to love Him. Like you said, He could make robots for that. He's looking to love those who willingly seek Him and want to love Him back.

    Have a good w/o, ttyl.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Well I never made that argument, that freewill was necessary for "happiness". I think freewill is necessary for a spectrum to exist, and love is the high point of human experience. I know lots of people have concluded that happiness is the prime goal of life, but I have decided that love and truth are greater aspirations. Those goals generally correspond with happiness, but not always.

    It's just like your DI. Did he want soldiers that followed him reluctantly, or was he looking for a few good men who actually wanted to learn and follow? Those are the guys he wanted to train, the guys who wanted to serve with their best, from their heart.

    That's how God operates too. He's not some cosmic rapist who forces you to love Him. Like you said, He could make robots for that. He's looking to love those who willingly seek Him and want to love Him back.

    Have a good w/o, ttyl.
    Well since you put it that way...I Luv ya man lol

  17. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    We were created perfect and God walked with us in the garden. We received the sentence of death when we chose disobedience in the garden. Man has disobeyed yet wants to blame God for the consequences that come with our decision to disobey. My disobedience is just as worthy of death as it has ever been.
    so in essence, god does not forgive? that seems to be the moral. 2 "perfect" people sinned (therefore not perfect in gods image) and god could not forgive, but instead decided to damn all others? That does not seem like a good and loving god to me

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I certainly do not ignore them. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
    for my own clarification, why is that? how is fear wisdom?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    so in essence, god does not forgive? that seems to be the moral. 2 "perfect" people sinned (therefore not perfect in gods image) and god could not forgive, but instead decided to damn all others? That does not seem like a good and loving god to me



    for my own clarification, why is that? how is fear wisdom?

    God does forgive those that humbly and sincerely ask for it.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    God does forgive those that humbly and sincerely ask for it.
    So Adam and Eve didnt ask for it I am to assume?

    I guess what I am confused about is, it seems based on this, that god automatically assumes the negative about its creations, until they ask his forgiveness. Why should they ask his forgiveness when he created them this way in the first place? It seems silly and soley a way to continually increase the ego of this god

  20. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    So Adam and Eve didnt ask for it I am to assume?

    I guess what I am confused about is, it seems based on this, that god automatically assumes the negative about its creations, until they ask his forgiveness. Why should they ask his forgiveness when he created them this way in the first place? It seems silly and soley a way to continually increase the ego of this god
    It does seem like God knew they might fall. Why else would He put that "tree" in the middle of the garden in the first place? Apparently it needed to be there for some essential purpose, just like our freedom to choose.

    I think it's all about character development. No kids are born knowing what to do. They have to be trained. I know I've made far more improvements through my mistakes, so maybe it's just a necessary evil?

    Like I've said before, all's well that ends well. It's not how you start the race, it's how you finish that defines your success! My kids have made lots of mistakes, but if those mistakes provide a framework for future success, I guess it was a good thing in the grand perspective.
  21. Unbreakable
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    so in essence, god does not forgive? that seems to be the moral. 2 "perfect" people sinned (therefore not perfect in gods image) and god could not forgive, but instead decided to damn all others? That does not seem like a good and loving god to me
    We are still perfect in his eyes, but disobedient all the same.

    What many are missing is that "the people" failed to "repent". Pride, arrogance, blameshifting and excusing disobedience away has plaqued mankind since the beginning of time.

    What was Adams reply to God when He asked him if he had eaten the fruit of the tree? "It was that woman you gave me - she made me do it"

    Repent = obedience
    Obedience = repent
    Repent = forgiveness



    for my own clarification, why is that? how is fear wisdom?
    "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". It is wise to obey the Lord out of love and respect but if you can only do so out of fear - the ends, obedience, justifies the means.
    Life is a terminal condition.
  22. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    So Adam and Eve didnt ask for it I am to assume?
    Interesting question. I don't recall the Bible mentioning whether or not they asked for it. I believe it does not account for that.

    Forgiveness does not in any way negate consequences. You're a parent. You forgive all the time. You also impose consequences otherwise you are an impotent father and authority.

    I guess what I am confused about is, it seems based on this, that god automatically assumes the negative about its creations, until they ask his forgiveness. Why should they ask his forgiveness when he created them this way in the first place? It seems silly and soley a way to continually increase the ego of this god
    Its a congenital condition. Mankind is heir to Adam and Eve's legacy of disobedience. I am forgiven when I ask for it but the consequence of mortality is not removed.
    Life is a terminal condition.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You seem to be hung up on the Old Testament Covenant between God and man that man continued to disobey and break time and time, again angering God, bringing just and righteous judgment upon man, enemies of Him and His will.
    I'm not hung up on it. That was the topic of discussion at that moment. If you are ready to advance to the NT let's move on shall we...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    If you read further in that same book, in the New Testament, you will find a New Covenant, the Covenant of Christ.

    Christ is asking you to follow Him and He is not wrong it what He did or does. Get to know Him and you may find you have a different understanding of God, His ways and His will all together.
    Christ is not wrong in what he does? I say the Buddha has more reverence for life than Christ does. Let's see why:

    Christ was hungry. He walks up to the fig tree (it was not even the season for figs) and seeing it did not bear any fruit he says "No man [will] eat fruit from you from now on — for ever" and at once the fig tree withered and died from it's roots.

    A great characteristic of Christ that matches up with the OT God--anger.

    He displays it again in the temple. We all know this case.

    And here is the best part... Jesus went to cure a possessed person. Upon kicking the demons out of the person, Jesus sends them into the pigs. The pigs run off a cliff and kill themselves right after.

    Jesus has reverence for life? Was the tree not a living being? Was it not growing? Was it not sucking up water from it's roots and absorbing sunlight into it's leaves to grow? Were the pigs not living breathing animals? Was there no blood circulating through their bodies? Were their hearts not pumping to be classified as living beings--to be deemed sacred from the very fact that they are living breathing entity's of life?

    When people bring out Jesus in an attempt to erase the past history of God and his creations... we see that Jesus is the same. He brings the same things. I can go in depth further on this but will stop here.

    And when it comes to reverence for life, the Buddha had way more reverence than Christ. When it comes to protecting living things, the Buddha wins out. Don't put Jesus on such a big pedestal. He definitely doesn't belong there when it comes to reverence for life.

    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    You never really stated why you felt this way. Wanting war and destruction so the savior will come seems a bit twisted. There are very specific things listed in the Bible that will happen before Jesus will return. Just creating war and famine isn't going to make it happen. One thing that must happen is the Temple must be rebuilt. Last I checked it hasn't yet. Israel has to be attacked and their attackers Will be destroyed in such a way that only God could do to protect his chosen people. All nations will turn against Israel, which is slowly happening. So if you followed Christ and know what will happen before his return, you would have known it is still a ways off.
    First off youngandfree you completely missed my point. My point was not about how, when, or why the second coming is going to happen.

    My point was I followed a book (the Bible) that said devastating things must happen before the Saviour comes again. And then I welcomed these devastating things with open arms. I welcomed death and war so that my Saviour would come again. I would of been happy and smiling from ear to ear had I heard Israel was under attack. Any book that does this to a man, is a book tainted and not worthy to follow by compassionate human beings.

    Here is an example. If you heard tomorrow that Israel was under attack... you as a Christian would get excited. Deep down inside you, you would be jumping for joy. Don't lie now and say you wouldn't.

    Me on the other hand, I would feel compassion towards Israel and her people and not be excited one bit because of the prospect of war and the bloody death it entails.

    Who then is in the clear? Me or You?

    My point was, following this book turned me into something I knew was wrong. A person in happy anticipation for war.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I'm not sure you know the God of the Bible. Did you grow up in a Christian home? Perhaps you know a game called "church". And your preconceptions of the Bible are how they trained you to understand it? That's not a good substitute for a real relationship with God. Once you develop that personal relationship, the Spirit guides your understanding.
    I knew this was bound to happen. Someone would start insulting me and questioning my character and understanding of the Bible instead of arguing with my points. I didn't think it was gonna be you who did it D.

    Yes I grew up in a Christian home.

    Yes I played a game called "church" every Sunday.

    I went to a catholic elementary school and a catholic high school where the Bible was studied everyday.

    I went to Sunday school.

    At times I went to church on my own. Walking as a young child with no supervision because I loved the house of God with all my heart.

    You know what happened tho? I grew up. D, when you were a child, did you not look at your parents as all knowing? All right? You saw them in a special light as a child. However, when you grow up, you realize they are just adults. Imperfect. Making mistakes. This is what happened with me and the Bible God.

    Please understand I have developed a relationship with God before saying I haven't. Just because my relationship with my God is not your "Bible God" does not disqualify it. For the second time, I live a spiritual life, intimate with a God I have come to know through the God given aspects of logic, reason, and compassion that he has installed in me.

    Don't insult me please. I think I have shown through my posts that I have a solid grasp of the Bible. I have a solid grasp on life and the compassion needed in it to develop great human beings.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    This is a solid question, and it's important to grasp. God has the capacity to perfect everything right now. In fact that was the plan from the start, a perfect species living an amazing existence! So why doesn't He fix it? Because free will is an imperative. The potential for evil is necessary. Bad is needed in order to define good. So why is free will so essential, especially if it allows for the possibility of sin? Because it also allows for the possibility of love, and without love, nothing else would matter. We can make bad choices if we choose. We can abuse our free will to do evil things. But freedom is nonetheless necessary, even though some choose bad. If we didn't have the freedom to choose, we couldn't choose love either, and we'd have no personal involvement or potential to evolve into anything more.
    Listen D, I live in the same world as you do. I see the violent nature of the animal kingdom. Have you ever watched hyenas feed on a live animal? Or lions? Kill or be killed. I see the violent nature of human society. I understand that this world is not perfect.

    I understand there is a deep reason for it not being perfect. I know that God "could" have designed a perfect world.... but clearly he hasn't. I also know YOU don't know WHY. But I do like your explanation... however... we are not given free will.

    Free will: the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

    Free: unconstrained.

    Sure, we have free will, for now. But what about when we die. What about when we are put in either heaven or hell. Do we get to choose between where we want to go? No. God chooses. At that very moment, our free will is stripped from us. We are sent this way or that way. We do not have a choice unconstrained by an external agencies, but a command to follow. We become constrained. We are stripped of freedom, and free will.

    And don't tell me WE choose where we want to go by OUR actions. Because that's not true. GOD chooses where we go from OUR actions. Our actions are not free. They have consequences. By that very fact, we don't have a "free choice" for anything.

    When I think of free will, I think of an eternal free will granted by God. The Christian free will is a temporary free will in our lifetime. I'm sorry but for me, that just doesn't cut it as a true "Free Will" bestowed by our God as a special freedom. Temporary freedom is not freedom!

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    God gives you a whole lifetime of second chances and do-overs. Choose you this day while you still can, because you've had plenty of second chances and extensions bro. There will be no excuses when you turn your test in.
    Why are you calling me a person in need of a second chance? Why are you telling me I need second chances? Why are you judging in me in such a fashion that does not coincide with my writing? Why are you making me out to be in the wrong and need saving? Typical Bible follower IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I think guys like CM that abandoned their Christianity were like the seeds that fell on rocky ground. Their faith never took root, so of course they fell away in time. Prophecy is just stating the future before it happens, so that it's accuracy can be validated 1000's of years later. Watch though, even as it unfolds, I bet many of these same guys will be in total denial and making every excuse possible to ignore it away! That's the only reason I still waste my breath on this, so that maybe a few of my friends here might come to their senses when they finally realize it's true.
    Again with the insults. Don't you call me the seed that fell on the rocky path. I am a good person with a deep understanding of a "Higher form of Intelligence" or "God." I have strong morals, ethics, and standards. Stop insulting my character and my faith in a "God."

    You will be waiting a long time for these prophecies D. Some may happen by mere chance... others never. Every generation has believed they were in the "end times." Every generation that was under persecution (for example Nero) had believed they were in the end times. How sorry I feel for them that they did not wake up and understand that there was no reason for their persecution. That their Saviour was not coming. That it really was not "meant to be."

    IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO QUOTE PROPERLY DON'T QUOTE MY ENTIRE POST... FEEL FREE TO QUOTE PIECES. I'm sorry I didn't realize it was going to come out this long.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    We are still perfect in his eyes, but disobedient all the same.

    What many are missing is that "the people" failed to "repent". Pride, arrogance, blameshifting and excusing disobedience away has plaqued mankind since the beginning of time.

    What was Adams reply to God when He asked him if he had eaten the fruit of the tree? "It was that woman you gave me - she made me do it"

    Repent = obedience
    Obedience = repent
    Repent = forgiveness



    "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". It is wise to obey the Lord out of love and respect but if you can only do so out of fear - the ends, obedience, justifies the means.
    kind of like Machiavellis the prince...better to be feared or loved? Eviently god is similar to Lorenzo Di Medici. However, why be obedient when the god sets you up to fail in the first place. Creates you with the temptation and the gross ability to choose imnproperly

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Interesting question. I don't recall the Bible mentioning whether or not they asked for it. I believe it does not account for that.

    Forgiveness does not in any way negate consequences. You're a parent. You forgive all the time. You also impose consequences otherwise you are an impotent father and authority.

    Its a congenital condition. Mankind is heir to Adam and Eve's legacy of disobedience. I am forgiven when I ask for it but the consequence of mortality is not removed.
    you are correct, there is consequence. However there is a difference imo between a timeout (or other menial punishment) and the possibility of eternal damnation.

    By the logic of thelast paragraph, if I commit a crime my daughter is heir to it. That seems a bit silly
  25. Unbreakable
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    I'm not hung up on it. That was the topic of discussion at that moment. If you are ready to advance to the NT let's move on shall we...



    Christ is not wrong in what he does? I say the Buddha has more reverence for life than Christ does. Let's see why:

    Christ was hungry. He walks up to the fig tree (it was not even the season for figs) and seeing it did not bear any fruit he says "No man [will] eat fruit from you from now on — for ever" and at once the fig tree withered and died from it's roots.

    A great characteristic of Christ that matches up with the OT God--anger.

    He displays it again in the temple. We all know this case.
    There is way more to what meets the eye and you seem to consistantly draw your own conclusion on things without TRUELY STUDYING the matter. You have missed it with the swine as well, but here is where you are completly mistaken about the fig tree.

    The conclusion that “some people” draw regarding this incident is quite misdirected and is the result of a lack of understanding of what was involved in this episode near the end of Christ’s ministry.

    The situation involving the “cursed” fig tree is recorded in two places in the Gospel records — Matthew 21:18-19; 20-22 and Mark 11:12-14; 20-25. We will introduce Mark’s version for the purpose of this discussion.

    “And on the morrow, when they had come out of Bethany, he [Jesus] hungered. And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if perhaps he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it was not the season of figs. And he answered and said unto it, ‘No man [will] eat fruit from you from now on — for ever.’ And his disciples heard it . . .And as they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance said unto him, ‘Rabbi, behold, the fig tree that you cursed is withered away’” (Mk. 11:12-14; 20-21).

    For brevity’s sake, we have taken the two references that refer directly to this event in Mark’s Gospel, and combined them. We are omitting verses 15-19, which provide some transitional information that occurred between the two successive days that are related to this scene. Likewise, we are stopping short of the Savior’s subsequent discussion of this matter, as recorded in verses 22-25. We will analyze this controversial text in the following segments.

    (1) The term “cursed” is used only once in the two New Testament records of this incident. On the second day, as Christ and his disciples passed by the tree, en route to Jerusalem, it was noticed that the fig tree was completely dead. This compelled Peter, who was speaking on behalf of the others as well (cf. Mt. 21:20), to comment: “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which you cursed has withered.” (v. 21).

    It should be noted first that the term “curse” is not used in biblical parlance in the modern sense of profanity. Rather, a “curse” was a pronouncement of judgment upon a person or object (cf. Mt. 25:41). In this case, there was a command miracle by which Christ spoke words that would cause this tree to die. It was not a purposeless act of intemperance. It represented a strong object-lesson that the disciples needed to learn (and numerous others since that time as well).

    (1) As to the charge that Jesus destroyed that which was not his, several things must be noted.

    First, it cannot be established that the tree had an owner. Matthew observes that it was growing “by the wayside” (Mt. 21:19). It therefore may have been a “volunteer” tree, as such are known in any land. It is worthy of notation that Peter did not rebuke the Lord for destroying another’s property, even though the impetuous apostle was not reticent to admonish his Master when he felt the circumstance warranted such (cf. Mt. 16:22).

    Second, W.M. Thompson, a scholar eminently familiar with Palestinean customs, pointed out that it was common for travelers to pick fruit from road-side trees, or from any tree that was not enclosed; there was no censure associated with such (The Land and the Book, London: Thomas Nelson, 1863, p. 350).

    Third, it must be emphasized that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He himself possesses the nature of deity (Jn. 1:1; 10:30; 20:28). As deity, therefore, the earth and its fullness are his (Psa. 24:1). He has the sovereign right to use the elements of creation to accomplish those higher goals which man, limited in his knowledge, may not perceive at a given moment in time. And that includes the destruction of a tree, or even a herd of swine (cf. Mk. 5:13). No man has the right to say of him, “What doest thou?” (Dan. 4:35; cf. Rom. 11:33-36).

    (2) In order to put this situation into sharper focus, the student needs to examine the meaning behind this action by Christ. When the Lord first saw the tree, he was yet “afar off.” He could only discern that it had leaves (v. 13).

    One must conclude that this circumstance reveals that though he was deity, Jesus did not exercise the full range of his divine powers constantly; he did not know the details regarding this tree until he was in close proximity (v. 13b).

    When the Savior arrived at the tree, he observed a curious thing — the fig tree was fruitless. Of what significance is this?

    Alfred Edersheim has called attention to the fact that “in Palestine the fruit appears before the leaves . . .” (The Life & Times of Jesus the Messiah, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1947, Vol. II, p. 374; emp. WJ). Thus, to see a leafed fig tree (even at an unseasonable time — v. 13b), warranted the assumption that there would be fruit on the tree. But this tree was an oddity; the leaves were there, but it was fruitless. This phenomenon, therefore, served as a perfect “visual aid” for an important lesson that the Savior wished to teach.

    Centuries earlier, the Hebrew nation had been separated from the pagan peoples of antiquity to serve in a special role in the divine economy. In the days of Moses, the people of “Israel” were designated as Jehovah’s “firstborn” (Ex. 4:22), i.e., they were granted a priority status. God thus said to Pharoah, who held Israel captive, “let my people go” (Ex. 5:1).

    Across the centuries, however, the Israelite people frequently rebelled against their Creator. Isaiah once characterized the situation in the following fashion. “The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master’s crib, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand” (Isa. 1:3). Read the prophet’s stirring rebuke of a wicked nation that refused to be governed by the Sovereign of the Universe (Isa. 5:1ff).

    While there were occasional periods of spiritual revival among the Hebrews (as in the days of Josiah, a good king – see 2 Kgs. 22-23), the tragic fact is, the nation was on a gradual, degenerative slide — a path of apostasy that would culminate with the blood-thirsty cry, “Crucify him! Crucify him!” (Lk. 23:21). The Jewish people, through the influence they exerted upon the Roman authorities (see Mt. 20:19; Acts 2:23), had Jesus killed. They murdered the very Messiah for whom they had waited across the centuries (see Mt. 21:33ff). Though they had enjoyed every conceivable spiritual advantage, they had become, for the most part, an utterly renegade nation.

    In the symbolism of the Scriptures, a fruitless, withered tree was worthy of nothing more than being cut down (cf. Psa. 90:6; Hos. 9:16). “Withering” was a symbol of imminent death (Joel 1:12). In the blasting of this fruitless fig tree, the Son of God was suggesting this:

    (1) The nation, as a political entity, had become a worthless mechanism in the sacred scheme of things. It thus was worthy of nothing but destruction.

    (2) That destruction would shortly come (within forty years — A.D. 66-70) with the invasion of the land by the Roman armies (cf. Mt. 22:7ff; 24:15ff).

    (3) The punishment would be complete and final; the “tree” would be dead from the very “roots” (Mk. 11:20).

    Conclusion
    There was a very good reason why Jesus Christ acted as he did on this occasion. It was not an impulsive act, it was not a misguided, irresponsible gesture. It was a deliberate, highly instructive warning. Unfortunately, the lesson conveyed has been lost upon the minds of many.
    Life is a terminal condition.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    ... Why are you calling me a person in need of a second chance? ...
    I'm sorry CM. It makes me sad to see you hurting and insulted. I swear I didn't mean anything I said to degrade you or your beliefs. I am wrong to assume you need any second chances, perhaps you are perfectly self-reliant. Please forgive me and know that I do love and respect you my friend.

    I have experienced certain things though, and I just can't figure a good way to convey those insights. I wish I could, but it's not my strength apparently.

  27. Dunn.... I read the entire thing you posted and will comment on it later but for now this is what I have to say...

    Any teaching that requires the death of plants, and the death of animals, is a teaching not worthy of being taught. It is counterintuitive to kill, and teach not to kill.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I'm sorry CM. It makes me sad to see you hurting and insulted. I swear I didn't mean anything I said to degrade you or your beliefs. I am wrong to assume you need any second chances, perhaps you are perfectly self-reliant. Please forgive me and know that I do love and respect you my friend.

    I have experienced certain things though, and I just can't figure a good way to convey those insights. I wish I could, but it's not my strength apparently.
    I'm sorry too D. It's hard to ever discuss what we are discussing without throwing our emotions into play. We're human.

    I must say, I am enjoying our discussion very much. I find your insights and your analogies amazing. I love how you take what I say and relay it to a real life situation that embodies what I'm saying. With the teacher, and the parent, you always find some great analogy that I find tough as heck to debate against. You would make a great lawyer lol.

    I'm sorry for over reacting too bro. I have love and respect for you as well D. Like I said before... you are one smart dude

  29. hey CM interested on your take with the Book of Revelation and the impending doom to come there. I must say that I agree with one thing you said when you spoke against those looking forward to the doom of Israel, but I think there are those of us who ARE Christians who "Fear the dreadful day of the Lord" as well as "Look forward to His coming" I have studied the Book of Rev in the Greek and love the poetic way John lays out his apocryphal writing. But let's ensure that we understand one another. John wrote what he saw, not what he wished would come to pass. He is merely a spectator to the horrible events foretold to come. Now whether one believes that these events will in fact come to pass, which I do, should not change the sense of humanity that we should have for others. I for one cringe at the thought of war. I have fought in wars, I know what it feels like to have others hunt you, I know what it means to be afraid. I also know what it means to have courage and stand up for the truth and belief that one has. I abhor war, as all should, but I DO look forward to seeing the Christ when he comes to rule again.
    Of note also, it is men that will cause those horrible things to take place as mentioned in the book, not God. God simply comes down to put a final stop to it.
    Working on living

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    hey CM interested on your take with the Book of Revelation and the impending doom to come there. I must say that I agree with one thing you said when you spoke against those looking forward to the doom of Israel, but I think there are those of us who ARE Christians who "Fear the dreadful day of the Lord" as well as "Look forward to His coming" I have studied the Book of Rev in the Greek and love the poetic way John lays out his apocryphal writing. But let's ensure that we understand one another. John wrote what he saw, not what he wished would come to pass. He is merely a spectator to the horrible events foretold to come. Now whether one believes that these events will in fact come to pass, which I do, should not change the sense of humanity that we should have for others. I for one cringe at the thought of war. I have fought in wars, I know what it feels like to have others hunt you, I know what it means to be afraid. I also know what it means to have courage and stand up for the truth and belief that one has. I abhor war, as all should, but I DO look forward to seeing the Christ when he comes to rule again.
    Of note also, it is men that will cause those horrible things to take place as mentioned in the book, not God. God simply comes down to put a final stop to it.
    Revelations is a very interesting subject and one that I have studied out of sheer cause of quandry. Was John writing what he saw? If so, then Revelations is the undoing of Christian thought in essence. If this was what John was told by god, then free will is a null and void commentary. If god showed this event(s) to John as the future, then free will either does not exist, or is meaningless as these events are bound to happen regardless.

    On the flip side, was what John wrote a commentary upon the times that he was living in? Lets look at the history and the horrible conditions that the Pauline Christians (thats who truly was affected here) were living under. Nero was the Emperor who used the Christians and Jews of the time as scapegoats countless times. Hell, he made Christian human torches to light the path to his home. He was so bad that the senate voted to kill him. Not just execute him, but beat him to death. Was John writing about the eventual coming up as it were against the empire that was persecuting them.

    I do not believe that anyone can fortell events that have yet to transpire and have so many variables that will lead to them. I side with a commentary of contemporary events for John. However, it is an interesting topic none the less.
  

  
 

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