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    I live everyday as if my doctor told me that I will die the next. Either we can free our minds and live, or imprison our own happiness by worrying about the inevitable - death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SemiBulimic View Post
    Religion has been and still is the root of so much evil and spilling of blood in the name of a 'god' in this world and it will continue to be.
    Undoutably. I completely agree. When you look at the stories in the bible though from the beginning, God has brought judgment on people or nations who have separated themselves from true worship. Religion in itself was created by man. Many people have theories. Most of them involve relgion was created to control people in some way. I agree with that also. The true faith or the true way of life though is not a religion. It's the way God intended us to live. I believe just as he did all through out history he has a plan to get rid of all these religions and people practicing impure worship in his name. Then only true worship will remain. The book of revelation hints to this. Then unlike other times where people screw it up again and start worshiping false gods and idols and forming their own religions they won't be able to because at the battle of armageddon as brought out in the book of revelations this will be the final judgment day.

    Ultimately I believe Man themselves is to blame for most of the issues.

    I have to ask, Does dislike for religion itself turn you away from the bible? I could see how it would. But as I mentioned it brings out in the bible that God does not approve of these men using his name for things he didn't send his son (jesus) to teach. Jesus did not teach war, above all was love.

    Matt 22 : 36-40 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - NIV

    Micah 4:3 "and he will judge between many peoples, and will decide concerning strong nations afar off: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. " - ASV

    ^ God has a plan!
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Undoutably. I completely agree. When you look at the stories in the bible though from the beginning, God has brought judgment on people or nations who have separated themselves from true worship. Religion in itself was created by man. Many people have theories. Most of them involve relgion was created to control people in some way. I agree with that also. The true faith or the true way of life though is not a religion. It's the way God intended us to live. I believe just as he did all through out history he has a plan to get rid of all these religions and people practicing impure worship in his name. Then only true worship will remain. The book of revelation hints to this. Then unlike other times where people screw it up again and start worshiping false gods and idols and forming their own religions they won't be able to because at the battle of armageddon as brought out in the book of revelations this will be the final judgment day.

    another problem i have - each faith proclaims to be the one true religion.


    Ultimately I believe Man themselves is to blame for most of the issues.

    I have to ask, Does dislike for religion itself turn you away from the bible? I could see how it would. But as I mentioned it brings out in the bible that God does not approve of these men using his name for things he didn't send his son (jesus) to teach. Jesus did not teach war, above all was love.

    It is one reason yes, but it's mainly because I don't believe in anything that relies on heresay and i'm afraid there isn't one single piece of evidence of an existence of a god

    Matt 22 : 36-40 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - NIV

    Micah 4:3 "and he will judge between many peoples, and will decide concerning strong nations afar off: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. " - ASV

    ^ God has a plan!
    This is something i hear when i've learnt about the likes of innocent children being struck down with disease and conditions such as leukemia, or a massive natural disaster occurs that kills thousands. That it all happens for a reason. For me that is utter rubbish as there is absolutely no argument whatsoever that such events could result in any positive outcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemiBulimic View Post
    This is something i hear when i've learnt about the likes of innocent children being struck down with disease and conditions such as leukemia, or a massive natural disaster occurs that kills thousands. That it all happens for a reason. For me that is utter rubbish as there is absolutely no argument whatsoever that such events could result in any positive outcome.
    Yeah, I wonder what the reason is for innocent children to be molested, raped, beaten? It does not add up. "Worship me and be saved, or turn away and I will destroy you!" What kind of loving God does that? Oh, the man made one.
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    1. Each faith does proclaim to be of the true religion but Jesus taught exactly how a person is to worship god and he said this at Mathew 7:15-20

    "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    He also said this at John 13:35

    "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

    Jesus taught that you can identify the true worshipers. In a sense separting the "sheep" from the "goats". You can also identify them by how well they imitate christ. Free of hypocrisy. I believe I have Identified the true faith but I'm not going to bring that up here.


    2. Everything that has ever been made has come about from discovery. It has already existed. Man has made nothing from nothing. All things have existed already. So how did these things come about? Just as it takes a scientist to create artificial cells, or a contractor to build a house it took a being to made those things happen. Science itself cannot prove we all came from nothing cause science itself has come about from something.
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    You guys do realize that Jesus was one of many "Christ" figures of his time? In fact many others are written about with great frequency and had many traits similar to the Jesus of Christianity. Point being, religion of that time is a marbled mess and exceptionally unreliable as so many interwined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew76 View Post
    Yeah, I wonder what the reason is for innocent children to be molested, raped, beaten? It does not add up. "Worship me and be saved, or turn away and I will destroy you!" What kind of loving God does that? Oh, the man made one.
    Well there is Satan who was sent to the Earth. He comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Bad things happen to good people because its Satan's goal to destroy all that is good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    Well there is Satan who was sent to the Earth. He comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Bad things happen to good people because its Satan's goal to destroy all that is good.
    not trying to be a pain, but......

    who created the fallan angel known as satan?
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    AE14 The issue at hand that the devil brought up in the garden of eden was that if god has the right to rule. (Gen 3:1) That is, is he fit to know right and wrong for all of creation. ( Gen 3:4,5 ) The devil didn't question how mighty he was. God created everyone with free will. Including all the angels and the fallen angel satan. If god did not create this free will then no one could choose to serve him by his own choice but rather by how he is programmed. Like a robot would be or a computer. For God to prove that he is fit to all creation time had to go by. There are 2 reasons why we have pain and suffering. 1. man makes bad decisions and reaps the consequences. 2. The devil. (1 john 5:19) (rev 12:9) If god didn't allow this all to happen someone or something would always question god's authority as people even do today. When this is all over, people will know that man has failed at ruling themselves and god knows what is best for us because he created us and satan is a liar and wants nothing more but worship for himself when he cannot offer anything for anyone because he is not almighty, has bad intentions and did not create us.

    The devil could be related to hitler. Tremendous leader and crafty in his words and actions. Many people were influenced by him and went along with him. Did his empire prove to be successful as to bring peace or happiness to the world? No, he was only after his own gain and what was the outcome for him? The same will happen for the devil.

    The thing about the bible is there are documented dates from when it was written. All the way from genesis to revelation. You have hundreds of years in between and the bible flows from beginning to end. Every piece fits together. The cities, the empires have all proven to exist. There is no way that men alone could create a book like this with soo many years in between. It would be impossible. There exists no other book like it. Almighty intervention preserved it's message. That is why one can say that it's author is God even though it was written by imperfect men.
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    The thing about the bible is there are documented dates from when it was written. All the way from genesis to revelation. You have hundreds of years in between and the bible flows from beginning to end. Every piece fits together. The cities, the empires have all proven to exist. There is no way that men alone could create a book like this with soo many years in between. It would be impossible. There exists no other book like it. Almighty intervention preserved it's message. That is why one can say that it's author is God even though it was written by imperfect men.
    I think you might be overestimating the amount of proof. However, the OT is a compiled work fo the words of man, much of which were taken from sources far older than the hebrews of the time. Additionally, there are many references to stories that are found in the modern version (as opposed to the original) of the NT which were also borrowed.

    I am not saying that the borrowing is wrong, as it is quite logical. The writers of both books needed a way to unify the people (see Constantine in the 4th century) and these compilations assisted in reaching that goal.

    In terms of the devil, his existence is an interesting one. When you look at ancient civilizations, the serpent is revered as the bringer of knowledge (which equates to the Lucifer name), however the judeo/christian world fears and despises the bringer of knowledge. Kinda interesting IMO
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    Not the end of the world persay, definitely not the second coming of Christ, doubt it'll be a world war. If you think about it what did the Mayans do better than we do today. Map stars and recognize/predict solar novelties. Might we have some crazy eclipse as venus, the earth, and the sun are aligned in a novel manner: likely. Could this anomaly cause some sort of natural disaster: perhaps. Doesn't surprise me that the Mayan calendar, like weather, our solar system, women's menstration moods has a cycle. It makes more sense that this cycle would correspond with something in our sky they could identify and predict, especially if this anomaly had happened at the same time they configured the calendar.
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    We can have this religious debate on the existence of Christ and the reliability of Scripture until the world ends in 2012 (haha), but we must recognize two things. Either one, there is no God, there is no Messiah, but since the religion relies on faith, this will never be proven and some people will never accept this. Or two, there is a God, and Jesus was his Messiah, but Christ himself states that our salvation relies on faith, and he will not simply reveal himself to all, meaning there is not certain proof that this is true either. So why, oh why do we continue to argue a point that cannot be proven or disproven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I think you might be overestimating the amount of proof. However, the OT is a compiled work fo the words of man, much of which were taken from sources far older than the hebrews of the time. Additionally, there are many references to stories that are found in the modern version (as opposed to the original) of the NT which were also borrowed.

    I am not saying that the borrowing is wrong, as it is quite logical. The writers of both books needed a way to unify the people (see Constantine in the 4th century) and these compilations assisted in reaching that goal.

    In terms of the devil, his existence is an interesting one. When you look at ancient civilizations, the serpent is revered as the bringer of knowledge (which equates to the Lucifer name), however the judeo/christian world fears and despises the bringer of knowledge. Kinda interesting IMO
    It's true, it took a lot of copying to take the original words and pass them on through out the centuries. It takes a lot of trust to know that it was done properly however what I ment on how the bible flows from beginning to end is that it works in harmony. Now if the old and new testament didn't tie together so well then I would question it but even more impressive is that the OT came from Hebrew and the NT came from Greek and yet still have perfect harmony. That's a TON of hard work for imperfect men to have preserved and translated all that material alone. Studying Hebrew and Greek will tell you a lot..

    Constantine was mearly just a early example of a man who used christianity or religion for his own political advantage. The man wasn't even a true christian himself.

    I think you got that last part mixed up. Lucifer in latin means light bearer which could be interpreted as a bringer of knowlege but then you'd have to look at where lucifer comes from. Where u find lucifer in the bible is in Isiah and most bible scholars will say that lucifer refers to a saying used against babylonain king or person and not the devil.

    The 2 main names when referring to the devil in the bible is serpent and satan. Serpent and Lucifer are not tied together despite the popularity. The This popular teaching could have very well gone back since the time the name lucifer originally came up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    if you actually read the actual Mayan prophesy it states that the human race will undego evolution, and life AS WE KNOW IT will end, not that the world is destroyed
    Makes sense. Were about due for some change. So much of what we do is a bul**** waist of time. I think were ready for a spiritual revolution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    My question is to the unbelievers. You say you can't put faith in the Bible but you give credence to ancient Mayan prophecies. How is that any more justifiable?
    Especially if you apply the rationale used for not believing the Bible.
    There are MANY MANY defenses both for and against the Bible, the Mayans, and whether or not French people talk the way they do because they have peanut butter stuck to the roof of their mouths.

    From the standpoint of what you'd call a "non-believer", I don't believe any of it. I believe that the Bible is a collection of stories passed down through the ages in order to teach people by example what is right from wrong. I also believe that these stories are both flawed and changed throughout time to reflect the politics of the era in which the book was re-written. Case in point...if it were perfect as written, then why are there so many different versions of it?!?! There's only one dictionary, just different publishers. There are many Bible publishers, and just as many bible versions. Are the interpretations of the stories, and therefor the lessons they teach, so profoundly different that it warrants different versions??? The Bible is a book. Take from it what you will, but realize that it is a guide to lead a "better" life, not the instruction manual.

    As for the Mayans, I have no clue what their calendar really means, why they stopped it at a certain time, nor do I really care. Once they figure out what the big deal with Stonehenge is, then maybe I'll move my interest to other historical artifacts. I absolutely LOVE history, but it's all flawed for one simple fact - it's written by "man", and man always writes based on their experiences and perception.

    And as for the second coming, rapture, global bla bla bla.... I'm not changing my life because of a deadline. I'm going to live it one day at a time, enjoying the sunny weather, every mile on my bike, every smile from my wife, and every single millisecond I spend playing, laughing, learning, exploring, bathing, sleeping, tickling, and doing whatever else with my daughter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-AD View Post
    Case in point...if it were perfect as written, then why are there so many different versions of it?!?! There's only one dictionary, just different publishers. There are many Bible publishers, and just as many bible versions. Are the interpretations of the stories, and therefor the lessons they teach, so profoundly different that it warrants different versions??? The Bible is a book. Take from it what you will, but realize that it is a guide to lead a "better" life, not the instruction manual.
    There's different versions for a few reasons. One, Translating. No one uses the words thy or shall in our time anymore. Easier to interpret versions are out so one can understand the word in the current era or language. As long as the meaning of original word as translated from Hebrew or Greek are correct then it's valid however Second Some publishers seek revenue $. They may change up a few words therefore actually changing some meaning with no real reason other then making money but because it's different people will read it. For example.. everytime a new search engine comes out people try it, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't find what your looking for on the old one but maybe some minor things have changed to appeal to the people. (bing, ask.com) These minor changes however in the bible can change a lot. What I did was research Hebrew and Greek and found for myself what versions were most accurate based on translation. KJV is pretty solid and the foundation of most christian organizations. I find however that the American standard Version and the New world version is probably more accurate since it uses god's name translated properly in english. Having god's name in the bible is essential to proper translating. For those publishers that have taken it out, I believe they had some sort of hidden agenda.

    It's funny you bring up dictionaries because the history of dictionary goes way back to BC times. English versions date back to early 1600's. There has been many publishers and many versions. Robert Cawdrey, Samuel Johnson, Oxford university, Noah Webster (Webster's dictionary) , Merriam-Webster. There's over 20 major english dictionaries. When you look in a dictionary for a word also you have different definitions. Does that mean that only one can be correct? NO..

    The 2nd point I brought up however is the main reason why there are so many versions. Personal Gain of the publisher. Are they recieving revenue? Where's the money going? I look into all that as well. Just because the bible is God's word doesn't mean that a person or person's can't go and write their own versions and call it "the holy bible". Jesus warned of Goat's in Sheep's covering. Just as you have a priest who potrays a "sheep" when on the inside he's trying to molest children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SemiBulimic View Post
    This is something i hear when i've learnt about the likes of innocent children being struck down with disease and conditions such as leukemia, or a massive natural disaster occurs that kills thousands. That it all happens for a reason. For me that is utter rubbish as there is absolutely no argument whatsoever that such events could result in any positive outcome.
    It takes more faith to believe God doesnt exist than it does to believe He does


    I am a firm believer

    Yes there is much suffering in this world- It isnt Gods fault- God gave man FREE WILL to do what he will

    as for man saying "IN THE NAME OF GOD" like the crusades- well that was mans corruptness coming out! It was an excuse they knew they could use to get the soliders to continue on- while the Church had their own plans

    The Church in that time was corrupt- I do not know if the Catholic Church is anymore or not-I am simply a follower of Jesus


    But please do not blame the chaos on God- He didnt do it- I think God could do a much better job at destroying the world if He wanted too

    And He will one day
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    ... As for the Rapture, I duno where I want it to be in the timeline, but out of being human I would like it to wait until I have me a wifey and a couple kids lol.
    Oh boy Zero, lol, you better get started right now bud! It might be 10 more years (or 10 more days) but it won't be beyond this generation I don't think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    but it won't be beyond this generation I don't think.
    I'm with you on that, I think we are deep in the end times but more things have to happen for this "generation to pass away" . I hope to be alive to witness it because it will be the most momentous event in human history. The most eagerly awaited prophecy. I also hope that I will make it threw! As you learn in a number of stories in the bible many have become impatient and gave out before deliverance. If only they would have stuck it out a little longer they would of had it. We need patience, a lot of faith and long suffering.

    Hebrews 12:3 "Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."

    Matthew 24:32-35 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this GENERATION will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I'm with you on that, I think we are deep in the end times but more things have to happen for this "generation to pass away" . As you learn in a number of stories in the bible many have become impatient and gave out before deliverance. If only they would have stuck it out a little longer they would of had it. We need patience, a lot of faith and long suffering.

    Hebrews 12:3 "Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."

    Matthew 24:32-35 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this GENERATION will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
    Amen, Flaw. For hundreds of years men have reasoned falsely that they were the terminal generation, but it was not even possible before Israel became a nation again. Now almost everything is in place, many more signs have been fulfilled, and technology exists to conclude the rest. I think it's the 4'th quarter, and we're in the snap count with only seconds left on the clock. I could be wrong, but it's getting harder to deny at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Amen, Flaw. For hundreds of years men have reasoned falsely that they were the terminal generation, but it was not even possible before Israel became a nation again. Now almost everything is in place, many more signs have been fulfilled, and technology exists to conclude the rest. I think it's the 4'th quarter, and we're in the snap count with only seconds left on the clock. I could be wrong, but it's getting harder to deny at this point.
    It needs to wait till I got me a wife and kids dangit >.< NOOOOOEZ, it really bothers me actually lol. What am I supposed to walk up to a a cute church girl "Hey lets run off and get married since the end of the world might be here!" hahah
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero V View Post
    It needs to wait till I got me a wife and kids dangit >.< NOOOOOEZ, it really bothers me actually lol. What am I supposed to walk up to a a cute church girl "Hey lets run off and get married since the end of the world might be here!" hahah
    Haha, I tell my wife that all the time Zero, that we should 'get it on' for our country! That it's our patriotic duty to help repopulate the planet in the event of a catastrophe! She just laughs though. She never falls for it.

    Bro, find a nice girl and get down to beez-nas. Why put it off, especially if you suspect that it's just about over? Pray about it first of course. He promises to grant us our desires, provided that they are within His will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Haha, I tell my wife that all the time Zero, that we should 'get it on' for our country! That it's our patriotic duty to help repopulate the planet in the event of a catastrophe! She just laughs though. She never falls for it.

    Bro, find a nice girl and get down to beez-nas. Why put it off, especially if you suspect that it's just about over? Pray about it first of course. He promises to grant us our desires, provided that they are within His will.
    D, you've fathered enough to have your own small town in the panhandle!! I can only imagine your prayers... "Lord, grant me the strength to do good, the wisdom to know right from wrong, and a home with 30 bathrooms so all these damn children will let me crap in peace!!"



    j/k Much love, bro! Izz turned 2 on July 9. Let the fun begin!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-AD View Post
    D, you've fathered enough to have your own small town in the panhandle!!
    You know, they say that juicing young will sterilize you over time, but that's a dam lie straight from the devil himself! Don't juice, unless you wanna have 12 kids by the time your 30!! j/k

    Quote Originally Posted by T-AD View Post
    I can only imagine your prayers... "Lord, grant me the strength to do good, the wisdom to know right from wrong, and a home with 30 bathrooms so all these damn children will let me crap in peace!!"

    Amen brother. A man's bathroom is his sacred ground, lol. (they know better than to go in there after I'm done anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by T-AD View Post
    j/k Much love, bro! Izz turned 2 on July 9. Let the fun begin!!!
    I still have Izzy's pic up in my picture tree in the kitchen. You should send me some updates! If she's 2 now, it's about time to stack another on, yeah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    You know, they say that juicing young will sterilize you over time, but that's a dam lie straight from the devil himself! Don't juice, unless you wanna have 12 kids by the time your 30!! j/k



    Amen brother. A man's bathroom is his sacred ground, lol. (they know better than to go in there after I'm done anyway)



    I still have Izzy's pic up in my picture tree in the kitchen. You should send me some updates! If she's 2 now, it's about time to stack another on, yeah?

    HA!! And I still think I have your latest creation hangin on my fridge!

    Na, we're going to stop with just her. Times being how they are, it's probably for the best. We can concentrate on giving her the best of everything without worrying about selling anyone short. We're battling only child syndrome, which might be tougher than we thought. Spare the rod, spoil the... well, you know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-AD View Post
    HA!! And I still think I have your latest creation hangin on my fridge!

    Na, we're going to stop with just her. Times being how they are, it's probably for the best. We can concentrate on giving her the best of everything without worrying about selling anyone short. We're battling only child syndrome, which might be tougher than we thought. Spare the rod, spoil the... well, you know.
    I understand your logic. Dude, don't worry about Izzy runnin' solo. I was an only child, and I came out O-tAy!

    Did I ever tell you about my invisible friend Herman, who lived in the toilet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    It's true, it took a lot of copying to take the original words and pass them on through out the centuries. It takes a lot of trust to know that it was done properly however what I ment on how the bible flows from beginning to end is that it works in harmony. Now if the old and new testament didn't tie together so well then I would question it but even more impressive is that the OT came from Hebrew and the NT came from Greek and yet still have perfect harmony. That's a TON of hard work for imperfect men to have preserved and translated all that material alone. Studying Hebrew and Greek will tell you a lot..

    Constantine was mearly just a early example of a man who used christianity or religion for his own political advantage. The man wasn't even a true christian himself.

    I think you got that last part mixed up. Lucifer in latin means light bearer which could be interpreted as a bringer of knowlege but then you'd have to look at where lucifer comes from. Where u find lucifer in the bible is in Isiah and most bible scholars will say that lucifer refers to a saying used against babylonain king or person and not the devil.

    The 2 main names when referring to the devil in the bible is serpent and satan. Serpent and Lucifer are not tied together despite the popularity. The This popular teaching could have very well gone back since the time the name lucifer originally came up.

    Please explain how the OT and NT tie together considering how many books were thrown out of both? Just curious

    The serpent imagery and name Lucifer refer back to the fallen angel I believe, I will double check that though.

    As an aside my friend, I was recently in the Yucatan and had a discussion with a tour guide at Chichen Itza who is of Mayan decent. He had some very interesting points on 2012. Great guy with some very cool info
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Please explain how the OT and NT tie together considering how many books were thrown out of both? Just curious

    The serpent imagery and name Lucifer refer back to the fallen angel I believe, I will double check that though.

    As an aside my friend, I was recently in the Yucatan and had a discussion with a tour guide at Chichen Itza who is of Mayan decent. He had some very interesting points on 2012. Great guy with some very cool info
    You speak of the apocrypha books that where excluded from the original bible by the Catholic Church (I am a devot Christian NOT a Catholic denomination though) So we shall take the books of the current OT and the books of the current NT

    Many prophetic things took place in the old testament- google the Messianic Prophecies they are prophecy made about Jesus Christ- thousands of years before Christ was born


    all the way from where the Messiah would be from to how He would Die

    And Christ fulfilled every one of those prophecy

    this is just ONE example of how the new testament and old testament flow together

    As far as for the books cast out the apocrypha- I need to study them more

    But the Catholic Church did it- which is made up of men- and men are imperfect
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    You speak of the apocrypha books that where excluded from the original bible by the Catholic Church (I am a devot Christian NOT a Catholic denomination though) So we shall take the books of the current OT and the books of the current NT
    this is just not true. look back to the 4th century and it was the Christian Roman Empire that did it at Hippo and Nicea.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post
    Many prophetic things took place in the old testament- google the Messianic Prophecies they are prophecy made about Jesus Christ- thousands of years before Christ was born
    they are about a messiah, no mention of a Jesus or Yeshua. In fact, the books tossed out painted an itneresting picture of this messiah and specifically the ones tossed from the NT as they are tossed b/c they question the divinity issue
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    this is just not true. look back to the 4th century and it was the Christian Roman Empire that did it at Hippo and Nicea.

    they are about a messiah, no mention of a Jesus or Yeshua. In fact, the books tossed out painted an itneresting picture of this messiah and specifically the ones tossed from the NT as they are tossed b/c they question the divinity issue
    Maybe I missed something. Are you stating that because the OT prophecies didn't put the name Jesus on the messiah to come, that Jesus can't be the messiah? Explain who else in the Bible fit all of the prophecies because I don't recall reading of anyone else born of a virgin, was sinless, was crucified and then rose from the dead.

    If the name part is your hangup about Jesus, that seems like a pretty weak argument to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    Maybe I missed something. Are you stating that because the OT prophecies didn't put the name Jesus on the messiah to come, that Jesus can't be the messiah? Explain who else in the Bible fit all of the prophecies because I don't recall reading of anyone else born of a virgin, was sinless, was crucified and then rose from the dead.

    If the name part is your hangup about Jesus, that seems like a pretty weak argument to me.
    go through ancient history. we have several born of a virgin, rose from the dead etc....

    Heck, Jesus was not the only "christ" figure of his time. Simon Magus comes to mind amongest others
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    Maybe I missed something. Are you stating that because the OT prophecies didn't put the name Jesus on the messiah to come, that Jesus can't be the messiah? Explain who else in the Bible fit all of the prophecies because I don't recall reading of anyone else born of a virgin, was sinless, was crucified and then rose from the dead.

    If the name part is your hangup about Jesus, that seems like a pretty weak argument to me.
    Yeah failed to mention the all powerfull messiahs name ...my bad. lol
    If you do some research and can actually bring yourself to look outside christian beliefs you will find that the " Christ " story is not new and deff. not unique.

    Other "Gods" Before Christ had virgin births and various other similarities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Please explain how the OT and NT tie together considering how many books were thrown out of both? Just curious
    There's a reason these "so called books" aren't in the bible, they aren't valid. You don't believe everything you read on the internet do you?
    ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Yeah failed to mention the all powerfull messiahs name ...my bad. lol
    If you do some research and can actually bring yourself to look outside christian beliefs you will find that the " Christ " story is not new and deff. not unique.

    Other "Gods" Before Christ had virgin births and various other similarities.

    So what's your point? That you can't decide if it's true or not, or which god is real, so you blow it off automatically by default. That's a pretty chicken sh!t way to see it bro. Be brave man! Pull your panties up, and dare to seek the truth. You can do it. And until them, be smart and keep your mouth shut if you don't know any better. That way folks don't realize how scared you really are for not knowing. You should have already learned that lesson by now soldier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    There's a reason these "so called books" aren't in the bible, they aren't valid. You don't believe everything you read on the internet do you?
    Not valid baseed on what? Your opinion? Most historians agree that the books that were left out were done so b/c they offered a different view of Christianity that the Romans (under Constantine) wanted. He needed to unify the empire, which could not be done had the religion not been identical across the board. However, there were some Roman aspects that were there. Take a look at the catacomb paintings of Jesus as a Roman, much different from the hippie appearance now.

    The point is.......the books were left out for political reasons, not just for validity
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    go through ancient history. we have several born of a virgin, rose from the dead etc....

    Heck, Jesus was not the only "christ" figure of his time. Simon Magus comes to mind amongest others
    According to this link, Simon was a self professed Christ and sought worship from others. But he didn't fit the messiah prophecy.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=798&letter=S
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    So what's your point? That you can't decide if it's true or not, or which god is real, so you blow it off automatically by default. That's a pretty chicken sh!t way to see it bro. Be brave man! Pull your panties up, and dare to seek the truth. You can do it. And until them, be smart and keep your mouth shut if you don't know any better. That way folks don't realize how scared you really are for not knowing. You should have already learned that lesson by now soldier.
    Wha ??? What part of my post did you not understand ?
    So in your view in order to be brave I have to believe in some supernatural all mighty all knowing god ?
    People have allways created Gods to help them in tough times.
    Most people look to the sky and ask for strength.
    Very few people have no need to look outside , rather they look within and find the courage they need to survive. THAT my friend is BRAVE.

    Oh and sorry i 4got to put my panties on 2day bro.
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    http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/S/SIM/simon-magus.html

    Nothing here about him being messiah according to OT either. Just his own delusions and magical powers that caused him to be worshiped by some.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    ... The point is.......the books were left out for political reasons, not just for validity
    Yes, they probably were in many cases, and perhaps some were legitimately disqualified in other cases. But why jump to conclusions? I mean, why scoff at the possibility of Christ automatically? Just because the church sux? That seems illogical unless you really know for certain. It would be foolish to reach the wrong conclusion when the stakes are eternal. I'd rather come to no conclusion until I knew better one way or the other, and indeed I was agnostic for the first 27 years of my life.

    Regardless, don't believe the hype AE. Catholicism is a satanic power racket as best as I can determine (as are most other major religions, including the consolidated one to come). But why let that obscure your legitimate, subjective considerations of God's existence? What does a sovereign God have to do with organized religion, which is just somebody elses' version of what they want you to believe god is? God and religion are not the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SELFofGOD View Post
    Wha ??? What part of my post did you not understand ?
    So in your view in order to be brave I have to believe in some supernatural all mighty all knowing god ?
    People have allways created Gods to help them in tough times.
    Most people look to the sky and ask for strength.
    Very few people have no need to look outside , rather they look within and find the courage they need to survive. THAT my friend is BRAVE.

    Oh and sorry i 4got to put my panties on 2day bro.
    Haha, it's just a figure of speech brah. In fact, you better not have any panties on, soldier. Homie don't play that don't ask don't tell sh!t.

    No, you don't have to believe in anything, man. That's not what I said. But just as you're born, so shall you die. You can't stop the hit. One day you die, no matter how skilled you are at survival. So where's the need to be brave? It's an easy task to live an die, no bravery needed. How brave do you need to be for yourself, knowing you die one day anyway? It's like **** it, may as well just go for it ya know? Only people in denial are scared to die.

    Real bravery is daring to consider than there might be some greater assignment for your life, and taking the chance that you may find it without it blowing your mind. Real bravery is facing the fact that life might be eternal, and you may still have to deal with sh!t after it's over. That should be your real source of fear, that it doesn't end after you die, and maybe this god thing is for real. You might wanna really think about it, I ain't lyin' to ya.
  

  
 

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