The 2012 bug is catching on!

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post

    Is this God's plan? Did God plan this?

    If so, it seems God operates under his own scientific rules. He doesn't seem to break them. He didn't magically put lungs in the fish. He did it through the natural worlds laws.

    I feel as though God would not simply appear to human beings in the same sense that he follows the natural worlds laws. Your mind may see him in a dream, it may see him in a hallucination... but I doubt God truly enters our reality. I feel as though the prophetic visions humanity have had were more of a mind's construct then Gods. What do you think?
    Ok totally agree with the bolded statement. I have been saying this for some time. I believe God to be the master scientist. He who knows the laws, uses the laws, and abides by the laws that either HE set forth, or are just there. Either way, it doesn't matter.
    The underlined portion is the part that I have issue with. God appeared to man people. Jesus appeared to Paul, Saul at the time, and looked every bit as real as you and I. Angels have appeared. If you notice throughout scripture that when heavenly beings appear the first thing that they say is "Fear Not" True God abides by the science and Laws beyond what we could never understand, BUT his knowledge of them FAR exceeds that of our own. To most Christians, the existence of heavenly beings is real and tangible. There are even records of people actually touching the body of Christ after his resurrection to prove to each that what they were saying is in fact real.
    Working on living


  2. Chocolatemilk,

    In the interest of saving space on here, I won't quote your response.

    I agree 100% with the observability issues. There is a potential (however small) that a large number of electrons in the atoms which form me exist in a location millions of light years away. It is only until those electrons (or the energy waves)are observed that the potential coalesces into what we discern as reality. (Ie. all the electrons are circling the nucleus according to the atomic models) This is another interesting facet of quantum physics. You can impart an energy on a subatomic particle such as reversing it's charge and cause an effect on its "linked" particle regardless of the distance which separates them. It could be light years away.

    Another aspect of this is that it is impossible to observe something in space and time at the same time. I don't know if I can explain that adequately here so I'm not going to try.

    As for the possibility of us all being gods or god-like. I do believe that we were created in the image of God. I think the word "image" is one that is open for interpretation. I do not believe that we are the physical image of God. I also believe that God dwells within each one of us regardless of our faith or lack of it. One of the things that those who do not believe in God or Jesus use as an example to defend the lack of faith is the fact that throughout time there are numerous "messiah" stories and creation stories across cultures separated by time and location. I personally believe that this is evidence of a creator. I believe that humans were imparted with a knowledge of God and it is no coincidence that so many of the stories are so similar. As for us being Gods ourselves, that's where I personally feel it's a stretch. I believe that God is all knowing. While the human species will advance and gain more knowledge, I don't believe we will ever come close to being all knowing.

    On a side note, there is a group who believe that since everything is made up of energy including us, there is a "collective" knowledge or energy which transcends time and space. The thought is that since we are energy, we can train ourselves to tap into this collective knowledge and become god-like. It is their belief that this collective energy is God. It's definitely interesting to contemplate.

    Anyone can feel free to slam any statements I've made here as I am aware that I do not have a PhD in quantum physics.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    ... I believe God to be the master scientist. He who knows the laws, uses the laws, and abides by the laws that either HE set forth, or are just there. ...
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Army Guy again.

    Yes, I agree. He is by definition of God, THE Master Scientist. I composed a short essay highlighting some of the primary scientific arguments for God:

    Does science support the existence of God?

    Some people believe that science and religion are incompatible. That may be so, but religion is not the issue I'm defending. Organized religion is man-made and subject to corruption. I am generally not fond of it. Nevertheless, God is real and that data supports it. I am about to demonstrate this with a brief, scientific explanation for those of you who don't know God. The time is close when you will have to make an eternal choice. I never push my beliefs on anybody, but consider the logic and think about it for yourselves. The reconciliation of science and God is fairly simple...

    The Second Law: Life violates entropy and supports the idea of providence.

    The psalmist says, "Great are the works of the Lord, pondered by all those who delight in them." Basically, every scientist seeks to understand the mind of God. Even the most hard-core agnostic or dietistic scientist (as I use to be) accepts on faith that the universe is ordered. There is a rational basis to existence that is evident in this order. This is shown in the laws of science and math. These things are very predicable. So I think many scientists will agree that there is a God. How else can you explain order and design? The Second Law of thermodynamics states that entropy (or disorder) always increases with time, so we basically live in a decaying universe. All you have to do is stop making repairs around the house to see that principle at work! Eventually, the entire universe will "burn out" as it continues to expand and be reduced to nothing more that low level, background radiation, mostly in the form of microwaves. How then does life develop and thrive when the whole universe is in a state of decay? How is it that there are sophisticated, self-replicating organisms in the universe, known as life, that develop in spite of the Second Law? It is know as the Anthropic Principle and it shows divine providence without a doubt. If there was not a God that favored mankind, it simply could not have developed. Life shows an extremely high level of order and complexity that must have been created because order is not the natural state of the universe, disorder is. In other words, there is design and you can’t have design without a designer! Therefore, it stands to scientific reason that there should be a God.

    Darwinian Evolution VS Divine Evolution...

    Atheistic scientists are a different story. They believe that life resulted from random combinations of simple molecules in a spontaneous fashion and that the universe just happened without cause or that it always existed in a static state, but that's not mathematically legitimate and does not agree with common observation. Even Darwin said of the human eye that the odds that it "could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." Darwinian evolution is simply not possible. It requires transitional life forms that do not exist in the fossil record. They are known as the "missing links". Why are there well-defined species in the fossil record with no intermediate forms? There are gigantic gaps in the record that can't be explained. I can sympathize with the rational of an agnostic scientist, but the atheistic scientist cannot be taken seriously. There's just too much evidence against the spontaneous appearance and progression of life or "naturalism" as some call it. Creation is the best explanation, and that is obviously precluded if there if no creator. Besides, if law and order are really the products of a mindless natural process, the human mind must be viewed as an accident too, in a series of many accidents. If that's so, how can we have any confidence that our mind could even recognize the truth anyway? How could a concept like truth even be possible? It just doesn't make logical sense without a God. There would be no need and no reason for any of this observed order, plus the observation itself would necessarily be questionable.

    The First Law: Conservation necessitates creation to explain existence.

    The First Law of thermodynamics is a fundamental, scientific property of the universe that also strongly supports the existence of God. It states that energy can change forms, but cannot be created or destroyed. That means that the overall energy of a finite system remains constant. Man can only refashion existing materials, but can't actually create anything new. The First Law shows that the universe must have had a finite beginning, and that it could not have just created itself. Just like naturalism can't explain the development of life, there isn’t any known natural process that can account for it's own origin. This scientific law is directly oppositional to a godless beginning. The reason energy can not be destroyed is stated in the Bible: God "upholds all things by the word of his power" Heb.1:3 and "preserves and keeps in store his creation." Peter 3:7 So basically, the Second Law shows that the universe must have had a beginning and the First Law proves it could not have just begun by itself. The total energy of the universe is constant, but the amount of available (or ordered) energy is steadily decreasing over time into a disordered form. If you could go back in time, this would reverse itself and order would increase. You would reach a point where total energy was equal to available energy. That was the beginning of time, and time can't go back any farther than that point. That point is known as a singularity and is part of the mystery of a singular God. Since energy can't just create itself, and there was no other imperative for it to exist, there is only one logical scientific conclusion: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Really, there are no other satisfactory explanations that match the known facts.

    The Cosmological Argument demonstrates there must be some God out there.

    There are only 4 possibilities as to the origin of the universe and thus the existence of life. This is an argument of universal causation and can be summarized like this:

    - The universe has no creator/cause.

    1) The universe has never existed so it has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but it’s also rather absurd. We are here! We can all agree that we do exist and something is going on here, right? If this universe is all just an illusion, then the argument can stop here because the question is just an illusion too.

    2) The universe has always existed in a steady state and has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but is also disproved by the First Law and not supported by the Second Law. Mathematically, a static, infinite universe just can't work and doesn't match scientific observations. This is like saying you've always been alive, and will also never die. Once again, we all know better than that.

    - The universe has a creator/cause.

    3) The universe has a beginning and created itself. This is a formal contradiction because how can something create itself before it even exists? Nothing finite can cause itself, because it is connected to another, prior cause. Sorry Darwin, self-creation is scientifically disproved and lacks the imperative that this cause and effect universe requires. That's like saying you created yourself, and did it before you were even born!

    4) The universe has a beginning and God created it. By a process of elimination, if we exist in a finite universe that had a beginning that could not have caused itself, then God is the only other explanation. In other words, God is the uncaused cause. The universe exists because of a first cause, there cannot be an infinite series of causes. Therefore, the first cause had to be God.

    Statistical odds of random, advanced life (does God play dice?)

    Let's look at the math involved in universal considerations. Consider a very simple microorganism consisting of 200 cells. Let's not even consider the math on where the cells came from (that's too much math and I'm not that smart) but just think of the combination of those cells to form a primitive organism. The probability of forming that ordered cell system by chance is 1 in 200 factorial. That factorial (expressed as 200!) can be calculated by multiplying all the numbers together from 1 to 200 and yields a result of 1 chance in 10E_375. I will not bother to type out 375 zeros, you get the point. You actually have much better odds of jumping out of a plane with no parachute and surviving the impact every single day for the rest of your life even if you lived to be 100 years old. Would you really gamble your life on odds like that? If you deny the likelihood of God, that’s what you’re doing. As the complexity of a system increases, the odds of an ordered outcome occurring by chance become exponentially dismal, even for the random existence of a simple 200 celled organism, much less a human being. It's safe to say that it takes much more "faith" to be an unbeliever than it does to believe in God.

    Which God specifically?

    So maybe you're starting to take the reality of God a bit more seriously, but why Christianity? Many of the great scientists were Christian, like Boyle, Newton, Pasteur, Joule, Kelvin, Faraday, Flemming, etc.. Biblical creationism correlates with the known scientific facts extremely well. Naturalism doesn't, and neither do any other religions I’ve studies. I have studied this in depth, applied many branches of science and analyzed the facts. I have tested it in my own life to see if it holds scientific truth. No other religion in the world has a god that claimed he could provide what Christ did. No other religious leader even made the claim that they would return from the dead. Only the one, true God of the universe has the power over life and death. Only the God of the Bible even made that claim. So, either Christ is who he said he was (the sovereign God of all) or he was a total lunatic, but he can’t be both.

    What is faith and can it be justified?

    Faith is the substance of things hoped for, so once you see the manifestations of your faith becoming reality, that proof in turn substantiates your faith. Don't just believe blindly, faith demonstrates and justifies itself over time. God cannot be seen (at least I have not seen him) but can be clearly detected by indirect means, just like the position and velocity of sub-atomic particles are measured. It’s scientifically explainable by the Exclusion Principle. You can never know the exact position and velocity of a particle at the same time because one is necessarily modified while observing the other, thus one of those measures can be directly observed and the other must be determined by indirect means. It does not mean that the particle lacks either property of position or velocity, only that they cannot be directly measured together. It's the same with God. You may never observe his existence directly, but when you see the effect God has in your life, it becomes possible to validate the cause.

    The Third Law (angels and demons)

    Newton’s Third Law states that there can be no force without an opposing force to balance it. That means that good cannot even be defined unless there is evil as a reference. In other words, forces come in pairs, so the Third Law would validate that some force should exist in opposition to God. Looking at our world today, the presence of a strong evil force has a scientific explanation that fits this observation. Why would somebody support evil and not side with God? Maybe because they have been deceived since childhood. People have been conditioned to believe that God makes a bunch of restrictive rules, or that they have to work their way to heaven by some church doctrine. Has God ever asked you for anything, or is it really some organization with their rulebooks and their hands in your pocket? God made you free! God is not looking down from heaven shaking his finger, waiting for you to screw up so he can strike you down. That's what some churches and religious establishments want you to think, and that's definitely what your demonic enemies (some people call them Aliens) want you to believe, but it’s a huge lie. You don't need anyone else in order to have a relationship with God. All you have to do is seek truth in prayer, and he does the rest. If you accept what he is, he’ll accept you too, and I can personally testify to this truth. Think about it and consider that the existence of God is more scientifically probably than not.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    ... You can impart an energy on a subatomic particle such as reversing it's charge and cause an effect on its "linked" particle regardless of the distance which separates them. It could be light years away. ...
    Yes, it's called non-locality (entanglement), when 2 particles/quanta communicate faster than the speed of light! That's a great concept to try to wrap your head around. I love thinking about the implications of such things!

    It's very apparent to me that we are just a tiny part of something really, really HUGE, and no matter what cards I'm dealt in life I am still honored and humbled to be a small part of His plan. I'm not sure what this universe is really capable of or what God has planned with all this exactly, but it's safe to say it's really amazing and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, the wonders and revelations that God has in store for those who choose to trust in Him.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post

    As for the possibility of us all being gods or god-like. I do believe that we were created in the image of God. I think the word "image" is one that is open for interpretation. I do not believe that we are the physical image of God. I also believe that God dwells within each one of us regardless of our faith or lack of it. One of the things that those who do not believe in God or Jesus use as an example to defend the lack of faith is the fact that throughout time there are numerous "messiah" stories and creation stories across cultures separated by time and location. I personally believe that this is evidence of a creator. I believe that humans were imparted with a knowledge of God and it is no coincidence that so many of the stories are so similar. As for us being Gods ourselves, that's where I personally feel it's a stretch. I believe that God is all knowing. While the human species will advance and gain more knowledge, I don't believe we will ever come close to being all knowing.
    I am not really sure if I agree on this. The Messiah stories are not necessarily a sign of creator, but to me more of a sign that cultures have passed down different stories many times over, and to me negating alot of the later stories. Just my 2 cents

    Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    On a side note, there is a group who believe that since everything is made up of energy including us, there is a "collective" knowledge or energy which transcends time and space. The thought is that since we are energy, we can train ourselves to tap into this collective knowledge and become god-like. It is their belief that this collective energy is God. It's definitely interesting to contemplate.
    This is also acient asian beliefs. Very similar to Hinduism and Buddhism as well.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post
    One of the things that those who do not believe in God or Jesus use as an example to defend the lack of faith is the fact that throughout time there are numerous "messiah" stories and creation stories across cultures separated by time and location. I personally believe that this is evidence of a creator. I believe that humans were imparted with a knowledge of God and it is no coincidence that so many of the stories are so similar.
    Jesus warned of this. So those you look to these so called "messiah's" have been fooled. Evidence that what Jesus said did happen. It confirms faith, not denies it.



    Matthew 24: 23*“Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24*For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25*Look! I have forewarned YOU"
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Jesus warned of this. So those you look to these so called "messiah's" have been fooled. Evidence that what Jesus said did happen. It confirms faith, not denies it.



    Matthew 24: 23*“Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24*For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25*Look! I have forewarned YOU"
    Are you familiar with arguing in a circle?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  8. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Are you familiar with arguing in a circle?
    Yes.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Yes.
    Then you do realize how you're committing this fallacy.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  10. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Then you do realize how you're committing this fallacy.
    Quite contrary. The evidence has been provided. Remember a more recent "christ" figure David Koresh? There's a pretty big list of men that have claimed to be the "christ" or messiah. I'm not saying there hasn't been these figures. Neither did the real Jesus Christ say there would be none.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Quite contrary. The evidence has been provided. Remember a more recent "christ" figure David Koresh? There's a pretty big list of men that have claimed to be the "christ" or messiah. I'm not saying there hasn't been these figures. Neither did the real Jesus Christ say there would be none.
    by the same token, Yeshua could fall under the false christ moniker based on not fufilling the prophecies like the others

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Quite contrary. The evidence has been provided. Remember a more recent "christ" figure David Koresh? There's a pretty big list of men that have claimed to be the "christ" or messiah. I'm not saying there hasn't been these figures. Neither did the real Jesus Christ say there would be none.
    You're using the Bible as evidence for your point, yet it is the very element that is in question. That is the definition of arguing in a circle.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  13. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    by the same token, Yeshua could fall under the false christ moniker based on not fufilling the prophecies like the others
    Your comment sounds very "Jewish" for lack of a better term.

    In the Encyclopedia Judaica it explains, "By the first century, Messianic expectations were high. The Messiah was expected to be “a charismatically endowed descendant of David who the Jews of the Roman period believed would be raised up by God to break the yoke of the heathen and to reign over a restored kingdom of Israel.” However, the militant Messiah the Jews were expecting was not forthcoming."

    A majority of the Jews at the time rejected Jesus as the messiah based on what they thought was going to happen. In "Their" mind he didn't live up to the expectations. But was their view correct? They thought Jesus was going to be some political force but Jesus has always said he was "no part of this world". They didn't pay attention to the things written.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?

  14. I actually addressed this a few pages back. Based soley on the OT there were at least 4 messianic prophecias that he did not fufill. The messianic prophecies are not something imo that we cannot just pick and choose which to consider applicable.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I actually addressed this a few pages back. Based soley on the OT there were at least 4 messianic prophecias that he did not fufill. The messianic prophecies are not something imo that we cannot just pick and choose which to consider applicable.
    I'm still finding it odd that your view point has a strong resemblance of jewish origin. Some of the things you mentioned have been used as a excuse not to believe. If I didn't know better I might think that you are Jewish and defending your faith
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    I'm still finding it odd that your view point has a strong resemblance of jewish origin. Some of the things you mentioned have been used as a excuse not to believe. If I didn't know better I might think that you are Jewish and defending your faith
    Its funny you say that. I was born jewish, however, in no way shape or form am I a practicing jew.

    With that said, I am using the obvious and quite reasonable argument of the jews of the time. There had to be a reason that the jews contemporary to jesus did not see him as a messiah. He did not fufill the OT messianic prophesies. Again, this is not an instance where we can pick and choose which of the prophesies we use. We either use all of them or none of them. It just doesnt fit for jesus.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its funny you say that. I was born jewish, however, in no way shape or form am I a practicing jew. ...
    Perhaps there's an genetic component?


  18. Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs' | News.com.au

    Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs'

    AFTER 10 years of comparative slumber, the sun is waking up - and it's got astronomers on full alert.

    This week several US media outlets reported that NASA was warning the massive flare that caused spectacular light shows on Earth earlier this month was just a precursor to a massive solar storm building that had the potential to wipe out the entire planet's power grid.

    NASA has since rebutted those reports, saying it could come "100 years away or just 100 days", but an Australian astronomer says the space community is betting on the sooner scenario rather than the latter.

    Despite its rebuttal, NASA's been watching out for this storm since 2006 and reports from the US this week claim the storms could hit on that most Hollywood of disaster dates - 2012.

    Similar storms back in 1859 and 1921 caused worldwide chaos, wiping out telegraph wires on a massive scale.

    The 2012 storm has the potential to be even more disruptive.

    "The general consensus among general astronomers (and certainly solar astronomers) is that this coming Solar maximum (2012 but possibly later into 2013) will be the most violent in 100 years," astronomy lecturer and columnist Dave Reneke said.

    "A bold statement and one taken seriously by those it will affect most, namely airline companies, communications companies and anyone working with modern GPS systems.

    "They can even trip circuit breakers and knock out orbiting satellites, as has already been done this year."

    Regardless, the point astronomers are making is it doesn't matter if the next Solar Max isn't the worst in history, or even as bad as the 1859 storms.

    It's the fact that there hasn't been one since the mid-80s. Commodore had just launched the Amiga and the only digital storm making the news was Tetris.

    No one really knows what effect the 2012-2013 Solar Max will have on today's digital-reliant society.

    Dr Richard Fisher, director of NASA’s Heliophysics division, told Mr Reneke the super storm would hit like "a bolt of lightning”, causing catastrophic consequences for the world’s health, emergency services and national security unless precautions are taken.

    US government officials earlier this year took part in a "tabletop exercise" in Boulder, Colorado, to map out what might happen if the Earth was hit with a storm as intense as the 1859 and 1921 storms.

    The 1859 storm was of a similar size to that predicted by NASA to hit within the next three years – one of decreased activity, but more powerful eruptions.

    NASA said that a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences found that if a similar storm occurred today, it could cause “$1 to 2 trillion in damages to society's high-tech infrastructure and require four to 10 years for complete recovery”.

    Staff at the Space Weather Prediction Center in Colorado, which hosted the exercise, said with our reliance on satellite technology, such an event could hit the Earth with the magnitude of a global hurricane or earthquake.

    The reason for the concern comes as the sun enters a phase known as Solar Cycle 24.

    All the alarming news building around the event is being fuelled by two things.

    The first is a book by disaster expert Lawrence E. Joseph, Guilty of Apocalypse: The Case Against 2012, in which he claims the "Hurricane Katrina for the Earth" may cause unprecedented planetwide upheaval.

    The second is a theory that claims sunspots travel through the sun on a "conveyor belt" similar to the Great Ocean Conveyor Belt which controls weather on Earth.

    The belt carries magnetic fields through the sun. When they hit the surface, they explode as sunspots.

    Weakened, they then travel back through the sun's core to recharge.

    It all happens on a rough 40-50-year cycle, according to solar physicist David Hathaway of the National Space Science and Technology Center in the US.

    He says when the belt speeds up, lots of magnetic fields are collected, which points to more intense future activity.

    "The belt was turning fast in 1986-1996," Prof Hathaway said.

    "Old magnetic fields swept up then should reappear as big sunspots in 2010-2011."

    Most experts agree, although those who put the date of Solar Max in 2012 are getting the most press.

    They claim satellites will be aged by 50 years, rendering GPS even more useless than ever, and the blast will have the equivalent energy of 100 million hydrogen bombs.

    “We know it is coming but we don’t know how bad it is going to be,” Dr Fisher told Mr Reneke in the most recent issue of Australasian Science.

    “Systems will just not work. The flares change the magnetic field on the Earth and it’s rapid, just like a lightning bolt.

    "That’s the solar effect.”

  19. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Perhaps there's an genetic component?

    Maybe me and Jesus.

  20. you are nuts!!! lol
    great discussion here though. It is just a difference of interpretation though. Christians believe there are 2 comings of the Messiah. The Servant Messiah and the Millennial Messiah. The way I view the scriptures and in my readings I see that ALL the Old Testament prophets pointed to these 2 as well. Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel just to name a few.
    However, putting myself in the shoes (or sandals as the case may be) of the Jews in the time of Christ, it does not surprise me that they wanted, even lusted for the Millennial Messiah. They had been under some sort of oppression for most of their existence. and the Roman's were not the nicest of occupiers either... remember the 1000's crucified near Nazareth a few years before Jesus came??? In their shoes I would have looked for that Messiah as well.
    Working on living

  21. I totally understand where yuou are coming from AG. However, no where in the OT does it mention 2 messiahs. Just one

  22. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I totally understand where yuou are coming from AG. However, no where in the OT does it mention 2 messiahs. Just one
    I love these!!!!

    read this my friend
    Why Did So Many Misinterpret Prophecy Regarding the Deliverer?

    As the years passed and the messianic expectation remained unfulfilled, many interpreted the sayings and writings of the prophets erroneously. It is not surprising that they came to see only the political aspects of the Messiah, since there was a scriptural basis for such a belief. Several hundred years before the birth of Christ Zechariah wrote of a day when the Lord (Messiah) would fight against the Jewish enemies “as when he fought in the day of battle [anciently]” ( Zechariah 14:3 ). Zechariah pictured Jerusalem being delivered in great power from all who had opposed her (see Zechariah 14:1–15 ). Isaiah spoke of the Messiah as having the government upon His shoulder (see Isaiah 9:6 ). That phrase certainly suggested a political kingdom. Numerous other prophets foretold His coming in power and glory.

    When one studies the prophecies carefully, however, a dual picture of the Messiah emerges. One picture is that of the “suffering servant.” Isaiah 53 is an outstanding example of the “suffering servant” kind of prophecy. It foretells the sufferings of the Messiah: He will be “a man of sorrows” ( v. 3 ), one who stands “as a sheep before her shearers” ( v. 7 ), one who takes our transgressions upon Himself. The other picture of the Messiah is that of the “King of Glory.” Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 9 contain examples of the “King of Glory” prophecies, which paint a picture of deliverance, political power, and the destruction of the enemies of Israel.

    and then compare these teachings

    The Messianic Expectation in the New Testament

    Other messianic prophecies revealed the life and mission of the Messiah in detail. Those who believed in Christ saw the fulfillment of these prophecies in His life. The writers of the four Gospels in the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, pointed out how Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that referred to the coming Messiah. For example, Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem of Judea (compare Micah 5:2 with Matthew 2:1–6 ), would be an object of great adoration (compare Psalm 72:10 with Matthew 2:1–11 ), would be preceded by a forerunner (compare Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1 with Luke 1:17 and Matthew 3:1–3 ). His ministry was to begin in Galilee (compare Isaiah 9:1–2 with Matthew 4:12, 16–23 ), He would teach in parables (compare Psalm 78:2 with Matthew 13:34–35 ). His ministry would be marked by miracles (compare Isaiah 35:5–6 with Matthew 11:4–5 ) and by rejection of His message (compare Psalm 69:8 and Isaiah 53:3 with John 1:11 and John 7:5 ). Near the end, Messiah would enter Jerusalem in triumph on the back of an ass (compare Zechariah 9:9 with Matthew 21:4–5 ), would be sold for thirty pieces of silver (compare Zechariah 11:12 with Matthew 26:15 ), would be betrayed by a close friend (compare Psalm 41:9 and 55:12–14 with John 13:18, 21 ), and would be deserted by His associates (compare Zechariah 13:7 with Matthew 26:31–56 ). He would be smitten on the cheek (compare Micah 5:1 with Matthew 27:30 ), spat upon (compare Isaiah 50:6 with Matthew 27:30 ), mocked (compare Psalm 22:7–8 with Matthew 27:31, 39–44 ), and beaten (compare Isaiah 50:6 with Matthew 26:67 ; 27:26, 30 ). His hands and feet were to be pierced (compare Psalm 22:16 and Zechariah 12:10 with John 19:33–37 ); yet not a bone in His body would be broken (compare Psalm 34:20 with John 19:33–36 ). He would be numbered with transgressors (compare Isaiah 53:9 with Matthew 27:38 ). He would be given vinegar to drink (compare Psalm 69:21 with Matthew 27:34 ) while thirsting and in pain (compare Psalm 22:15 and John 19:28 ). When dead, He would be buried with the rich (compare Isaiah 53:12 with Matthew 27:57–60 ); but His body would not see corruption (compare Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:31 ), for He would rise from death (compare Psalms 2:7 ; 16:10 with Acts 13:33 ), making it possible for all the dead to rise (compare Isaiah 26:19 and Daniel 12:2 with Matthew 27:52–53 ).

    So to many of us, it is just a matter of seeing it a different way. To me, there is more than enough scriptural evidence to support Jesus as the Christ, the Servant Messiah. And his 2nd Coming will be the final fulfillment of the rest of these.
    THEN will those Jews whom he saves hail him as the Messiah long awaited. However 1 prophecy by Zachariah will then be fulfilled. For in their joy they will see something that strikes them to the ground
    Zechariah 13:6
    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    Then they shall know that he was in fact Jesus, he who was crucified.
    Working on living

  23. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

    The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
    1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
    2. Usher in an era of peace
    3. Bring all the jews to Israel
    4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

    Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

    Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important
    This one is for you AG. The Messiah, based on the OT was to complete the 4 above referenced. Jesus, did not do any of them. Considering at the time OT was the onyl text from which to take the prophecies, there is truly no onther way to look at it. To use the NT would be silly IMO, as using a text that came after Jesus just doesnt make sense

    Kinda cut and dry

  24. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    This one is for you AG. The Messiah, based on the OT was to complete the 4 above referenced. Jesus, did not do any of them. Considering at the time OT was the onyl text from which to take the prophecies, there is truly no onther way to look at it

    Kinda cut and dry
    absolutely correct my friend! the number one you have listed is actually to happen before the Messiah comes to rule and reign.
    But the other 3, MONEY!!!!
    My reply??? Jesus did not do those things... YET but he DID fulfill the ones I posted above. When will the ones you posted be fulfilled??? Simple my friend, when he comes again. And then THIS will be fulfilled as well

    THEN will those Jews whom he saves hail him as the Messiah long awaited. However 1 prophecy by Zachariah will then be fulfilled. For in their joy they will see something that strikes them to the ground
    Zechariah 13:6
    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    Then they shall know that he was in fact Jesus, he who was crucified.
    Working on living

  25. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    This one is for you AG. The Messiah, based on the OT was to complete the 4 above referenced. Jesus, did not do any of them. Considering at the time OT was the onyl text from which to take the prophecies, there is truly no onther way to look at it. To use the NT would be silly IMO, as using a text that came after Jesus just doesnt make sense

    Kinda cut and dry
    This is one of my main problems with the Bible. They take someone else's scripture and then add in some new parts and then call it their own. That part just doesn't make sense to me.

    I also find it a tad funny that no one has tried to debunk my arguing in a circle point. No takers...?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  26. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

    The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
    1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
    2. Usher in an era of peace
    3. Bring all the jews to Israel
    4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

    Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

    Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important
    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    absolutely correct my friend! the number one you have listed is actually to happen before the Messiah comes to rule and reign.
    But the other 3, MONEY!!!!
    My reply??? Jesus did not do those things... YET but he DID fulfill the ones I posted above. When will the ones you posted be fulfilled??? Simple my friend, when he comes again. And then THIS will be fulfilled as well

    THEN will those Jews whom he saves hail him as the Messiah long awaited. However 1 prophecy by Zachariah will then be fulfilled. For in their joy they will see something that strikes them to the ground
    Zechariah 13:6
    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

    Then they shall know that he was in fact Jesus, he who was crucified.

    Ahh YET I certainly understand why a theist would look at it that way. However, as I am sure you know, I just cant see it that way. Since the OT never stated a messiah coming around again, Jesus is not the answer to the Messianic prophecies.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    This is one of my main problems with the Bible. They take someone else's scripture and then add in some new parts and then call it their own. That part just doesn't make sense to me.

    I also find in a tad funny that no one has tried to debunk my arguing in a circle point. No takers...?
    indeed, it is problematic

  28. lol and the great debate continues my brother!!
    Working on living

  29. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its funny you say that. I was born jewish, however, in no way shape or form am I a practicing jew.

    With that said, I am using the obvious and quite reasonable argument of the jews of the time. There had to be a reason that the jews contemporary to jesus did not see him as a messiah. He did not fufill the OT messianic prophesies. Again, this is not an instance where we can pick and choose which of the prophesies we use. We either use all of them or none of them. It just doesnt fit for jesus.
    Haha, wow! Funny I hit that on the spot. It would be hard not to pull the biased card here. Especially when you were raised in such historic tradition. Most Jews are very proud people. It seems though today that it's more about ethnicity then beliefs. There are many different divisions of Judiasm. There are also a number of Jews that believe christ is the messiah Also many beliefs have been lost over time. The holocaust did a number on the faith of a large amount of Jews. If you don't mind me asking why have you been led away from the faith? If it's too personal that's cool.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

    WHAT has science offered?

  30. Quote Originally Posted by HurtinPounds View Post
    Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs' | News.com.au

    Sun storm to hit with 'force of 100 bombs'

    AFTER 10 years of comparative slumber, the sun is waking up - and it's got astronomers on full alert.

    This week several US media outlets reported that NASA was warning the massive flare that caused spectacular light shows on Earth earlier this month was just a precursor to a massive solar storm building that had the potential to wipe out the entire planet's power grid. ...
    The Bible predicted impending solar doom 2000 years in advance. NASA's just now jumping on the bandwagon. Hmmmmm.... go figure.

    The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. - Revelation 16:8-9
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