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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    my friends thanks for your input and quotes! Those were a great boost this morning!! looking forward to more discussion from CM and AE!!! Let's keep this thread alive guys! Something I would like to ask the two of you...
    What is your take on Isaiah 53? This is the chapter talking about the Mortal Messiah to come as one killed for the sins of the world, as opposed to the Millennial Messiah who would come to rule and reign, as the Jews at the time of Christ were looking forward to as a political call to arms to free themselves from the oppression of the Romans. Guys like myself, Dr, and DD would view this one as prophecy being fulfilled.
    thoughts my friends???
    Its a very interesting idea, however, part of this prophecy as of course not happened.

    I also will answer it with a question: Why did the Jews of the time not view Jesus as their expected messiah? They had specific thoughts about prophecies that he did not fufill


  2. that question to my question is the perfect question!!! hold on let me think about what I just typed... ok good
    There are many theories of why that happened. The answer I myself have come too is this. Jesus WAS hailed by the PEOPLE as the Messiah. Remember the triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover? His trial and condemnation came not at the hands of the people, but at the hands of those in power. To avoid typing many paragraphs on this point I will say this and hope that you have seen and read similar and understand the point...
    The Sadducees and Pharisees in control were threatened. The fact that he was proclaiming himself, or the people were proclaiming his King of the Jews, was a mute point. They held an illegal trial because they were afraid the established order and diminished power that they did in fact have would be threatened. The illegal trial, and if you want to know why illegal we can discuss that later, condemned him to die during the night time. He stood before Pilot the next morning, but that was on the Roman portion of Jerusalem overlooking the temple, a place not frequented by regular people or worshipers. Thus the cry Crucify Him was yelled by those who knew what was happening through the night long ordeal...
    bottom line to this long answer. The people accepted and hailed him as their Messiah, but the established order condemned him to death.
    Working on living
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    For me, this is as every bit personal as it is intellectual... meaning that I came on bended knees myself and asked God if he was and is real. For me that prayer was answered. I cannot nor will I go into great detail on the feeling that came over me or that I received, but happen it did. From that point until this I have studied hours on end to understand the feelings that were given me.
    God's holy spirit is a interesting thing. It confirms the things you believe so you have proof of god's existence. Those without faith would never experience it therefore could never believe. I've seen God's hand in my life countless times. Maybe I didn't get my prayer answered as soon as I wanted but in time, with patience it came. (bear in mind you must do his will to have your prayers answered) Just as god pulled his hand away from Job he does the same to us. He let's the devil tempt us but if we keep faith in him we will make it through anything.

    "For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin. Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time." - Hebrews 4:15,16


    Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt YOU in due time; while YOU throw all YOUR anxiety upon him, because he cares for YOU. Keep YOUR senses, be watchful. YOUR adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour [someone]. But take YOUR stand against him, solid in the faith, knowing that the same things in the way of sufferings are being accomplished in the entire association of YOUR brothers in the world. But, after YOU have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called YOU to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish YOUR training, he will make YOU firm, he will make YOU strong. To him be the might forever. Amen." -1 Peter 5:6-11
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

  4. well said Flaw! and great quotes!
    Working on living

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    that question to my question is the perfect question!!! hold on let me think about what I just typed... ok good
    There are many theories of why that happened. The answer I myself have come too is this. Jesus WAS hailed by the PEOPLE as the Messiah. Remember the triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover? His trial and condemnation came not at the hands of the people, but at the hands of those in power. To avoid typing many paragraphs on this point I will say this and hope that you have seen and read similar and understand the point...
    The Sadducees and Pharisees in control were threatened. The fact that he was proclaiming himself, or the people were proclaiming his King of the Jews, was a mute point. They held an illegal trial because they were afraid the established order and diminished power that they did in fact have would be threatened. The illegal trial, and if you want to know why illegal we can discuss that later, condemned him to die during the night time. He stood before Pilot the next morning, but that was on the Roman portion of Jerusalem overlooking the temple, a place not frequented by regular people or worshipers. Thus the cry Crucify Him was yelled by those who knew what was happening through the night long ordeal...
    bottom line to this long answer. The people accepted and hailed him as their Messiah, but the established order condemned him to death.

    Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

    The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
    1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
    2. Usher in an era of peace
    3. Bring all the jews to Israel
    4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

    Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

    Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Its interesting you say it that way, as I was going to address it to an extent. It seems that when you say the people, you are refering to the majority of the jews at the time? However, based on the writings of the time, that is not true. In fact, Jesus' following was relatively small, and not much different from the several other christ figures of the time.

    The jews did not recognize him as messiah because of a few not fufilled prophecies
    1. He didnt build the 3rd temple
    2. Usher in an era of peace
    3. Bring all the jews to Israel
    4. Spread the Universal knowledge of god.

    Now also bear in mind that jews of the time expected the messiah to fufill these straight away, and that was not done. Hence the rejection by the majority of the populace

    Also bear in mind the virgin birth, heavenly father and lineage of David are also quite important
    well agree and disagree... the problem is yes, there was a following in the wilderness as he traveled, but nothing more than say John the Baptist. The difference is the entry into Jerusalem... The city was overflowing with people for the passover celebration. The city called out Hosanna as he entered. It was this final entry that also sealed his fate. Thousands called out to him, he rode in on the white donkey, symbolic in that day of kingship, and prophesied as well.
    Now for the 1-4 you stated above. These are taken from Isaiah, but let's not confuse the Mortal Messiah with the Millenial Messiah. You are 100% correct that these things are to be done prior to or along with the Mellenial reign. However, the 3 temple could not be built yet when he was on the earth as the 2nd temple was still standing at the time.
    I agree full heartily that people were looking for their Messiah to fulfill these others points, where they lost their way was he needed to come in the flesh FIRST. And while in the flesh he would be "Despised and rejected of men. A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief... he would be led as a lamb to the slaughter and open not his mouth."
    Working on living
  7. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    as the Jews at the time of Christ were looking forward to as a political call to arms to free themselves from the oppression of the Romans. Guys like myself, Dr, and DD would view this one as prophecy being fulfilled.
    thoughts my friends???
    Its a very interesting idea, however, part of this prophecy as of course not happened.

    I also will answer it with a question: Why did the Jews of the time not view Jesus as their expected messiah? They had specific thoughts about prophecies that he did not fufill
    Additionally I believe they had anticipated that He would lead a revolution and or a revolt. They mistook the freedom from oppression as being set free from the bondage of the oppressor - The Roman Empire. When Jesus came to us, he came not as a worldly king but as a servant. He showed that one could be free of the shackles imposed by religious and cultural law. The Jews wanted revolution of the body, Jesus brought a revolution in the spirit.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Additionally I believe they had anticipated that He would lead a revolution and or a revolt. They mistook the freedom from oppression as being set free from the bondage of the oppressor - The Roman Empire. When Jesus came to us, he came not as a worldly king but as a servant. He showed that one could be free of the shackles imposed by religious and cultural law. The Jews wanted revolution of the body, Jesus brought a revolution in the spirit.
    exactly! He was there the First time, the Mortal Messiah, to save them from their sins, NOT to save them from the bounds of Roman tyranny. That will be saved for his 2nd coming, or the Millenial Messiah. We put DD
    Working on living

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    I agree full heartily that people were looking for their Messiah to fulfill these others points, where they lost their way was he needed to come in the flesh FIRST. And while in the flesh he would be "Despised and rejected of men. A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief... he would be led as a lamb to the slaughter and open not his mouth."
    however, this is not what the text requires. Nothing specifically states a first and second coming

  10. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    however, this is not what the text requires. Nothing specifically states a first and second coming
    it is all a mater of interpretation my friend. But that is what gives books like Isaiah their richness. It allows one to see there are two comings, or there are one.
    Working on living

  11. The very beginning of Genesis points to a first and second coming.

    Gen 3: 15*"And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

    The bruising of the heel symbolizes christ first coming as the seed. He was bruised in the heel because he was put to death but only the heel because he was not dead forever. He was ressurected and the bruising of the head symbolizes the final blow to satan the devil in the second coming of christ.

    It was prophesized that christ would come and he did. We await the second coming when he bruises the devil in the head.
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

  12. Flaw


    That is a bit of a stretch IMO. As AG said we all can see different things I suppose

  13. Don't think so..

    Galations 3:16*"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ. "

    Jesus was "the seed".
    “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Army Guy View Post
    that question to my question is the perfect question!!! hold on let me think about what I just typed... ok good
    There are many theories of why that happened. The answer I myself have come too is this. Jesus WAS hailed by the PEOPLE as the Messiah. Remember the triumphant entry into Jerusalem before Passover? His trial and condemnation came not at the hands of the people, but at the hands of those in power.
    Look at what is in bold AG. The only person of power that could put Jesus to death was Pontius Pilot. All other groups did not have the power to do it. They pushed for it, but they themselves could not do it.

    Pontius Pilot, the only man of power to kill Jesus, washed his hands from that decision. Pilot gave Jesus up to the people, and the people chose between Jesus and Barabbas to be condemned and killed.

    So his trial and condemnation did come from the people.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    Don't think so..

    Galations 3:16*"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ. "

    Jesus was "the seed".
    Again, just based on interpretation. Nowhere in that quote is there a reference to anything about a second coming. Also bear in mind this is NT text and not OT which is what we were refering to previously

  16. I'm with AE... I don't understand the connections you're making Flaw.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Flaw View Post
    God's holy spirit is a interesting thing. It confirms the things you believe so you have proof of god's existence. Those without faith would never experience it therefore could never believe. I've seen God's hand in my life countless times. ...
    When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

    But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

  18. So D, as an intelligent man of science, how do you explain it? Just curious, as this sounds so foreign to me

  19. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    This is exactly true!

    A. He was crazy, and actually believed he was god even though he wasn't.

    B. He was a con man, and said he was god even though he knew he wasn't.

    C. He actually was who he said he was, God.
    Exactly

    and history shows us Jesus was NOT a lunatic- people wouldnt have followed Him so closely! Lunatics where not treated with respect in those days

    Also if He was a lair people would not have risked their lives in following Him


    That leaves me with one conclusion

    He is the Messiah
    Test e/dbol/epi/winnie
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/164764-schwellington-has-been.html

  20. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

    But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

    I have this also

    I can also at times notice the feeling that their is another presence with me- that i am not alone like someone else is in the room- but physically i am alone- but i can tell i am not

    and this presence- i feel it it is HUGE- powerful kind loving- like a Father


    I believe it to be God
    Test e/dbol/epi/winnie
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/164764-schwellington-has-been.html

  21. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    When the Spirit confirms truth to me, I literally get a physical sensation to affirm the insight, almost like a shiver/tingles feeling. It's unique and unmistakable, and it's unpredictable with a rapid onset. I have experienced this phenomena since I was 21 years old, that's the earliest age I noted the feeling. I noticed after awhile that I could really trust it. It was the only confirmation that was 100% dependable. Anytime I was pondering the truth of some philosophical or technical issue, if that feeling corresponded with something I was thinking about I knew I was on the right path. I tested it repeatedly, and it always proved true. I couldn't find any verifiable instance when it failed! Which is almost unheard of in science. It was like a cool trick or special power, a benevolent confirmation I knew I could count on though I wasn't sure the nature of it. I assumed it was some neuronal phenomena where synaptic connections generated a physical sensation from properly integrated data in the brain, or something scientific like that. I was mostly thinking about the big questions of the universe back then, and my school major was nuclear biophysics because I thought it would help me answer these burning questions. (yes, I was a big nerd, lol) I minored in chemistry too, so I was very science minded. It wasn't until God found me at 27yo that I realized that "feeling" was the Spirit all this time, and I just didn't have the Biblical background to ever consider it. The Bible was the last place I thought I'd ever find the answers!

    But what is so interesting to me, is that He gave me the Spirit even before I believed! The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, but in my personal experience, it's practically all grace. My faith was zero when He saved me. The grace component is profound with Christ. Perhaps He anticipates our eventual faith, and gives it forward? I just know I am extremely humbled by it all, looking back at all the messes He saved me from. This gift of Spirit is real, and available to ALL men (believer and unbeliever) as long as you sincerely seek truth. He rewards those that diligently seek Him, but you must be a seeker to find it.

    I have this also

    I can also at times notice the feeling that their is another presence with me- that i am not alone like someone else is in the room- but physically i am alone- but i can tell i am not

    and this presence- i feel it it is HUGE- powerful kind loving- like a Father


    I believe it to be God


    as for AE14

    I love science- absolutley love it!

    But science cannot explain everything
    Test e/dbol/epi/winnie
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/164764-schwellington-has-been.html

  22. Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Look at what is in bold AG. The only person of power that could put Jesus to death was Pontius Pilot. All other groups did not have the power to do it. They pushed for it, but they themselves could not do it.

    Pontius Pilot, the only man of power to kill Jesus, washed his Ohands from that decision. Pilot gave Jesus up to the people, and the people chose between Jesus and Barabbas to be condemned and killed.

    So his trial and condemnation did come from the people.
    good point CM, and welcome back my friend! But let us look at it as a time frame. The Sadducees, who where then in control of the San hedrin at the time, were those I was referring to as rulers. They arrested Jesus at night in the garden. He stood in illegal trial all night. Was taken to herod that night, and was finally before Pilot early the next morning. The choice between Barrabas and Jesus took place early Friday morning. The only people who knew Jesus had been arrested were those who in fact arrested him. This would be like holding a state election and only telling 1/20th of electorate it was taking place. So IMHO the people only found out about this as he was condemned as he walked carrying the cross.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    So D, as an intelligent man of science, how do you explain it? Just curious, as this sounds so foreign to me
    Well, I'm a man of science at least, yes. (it was very gracious of you to add the intelligent part though, lol)

    I'm still not sure how to explain it conventionally, AE. Back then, it was not possible for me to be anything more than an agnostic before my revelation, and I would argue with everybody who believed (even my wife!) I would make fun of them, just like many atheists here do to believers, never acknowledging many of the historical aspects but quickly pointing out the unlikelihood of a Christian god. Why would such a great God waste his time on the petty affairs of mankind? That was my bottom line and my major hang-up with religion. The universe was just too big for such a personal relationship to exist between an almighty God and a little man on a small planet in a medium solar system in an average galaxy, etc, etc.. I thought sure, maybe there is a singular omnipotent creator, but certainly not one like any religion presented. I thought I could learn the mind of God through standardized, quantitized, analytical science. I was a thinking man, I didn't need "belief" to poison that! I viewed religion as a primitive form of science to explain natural phenomena in the absence of the necessary scientific understanding.

    So to cut to the chase, had I not had the personal experiences I did, I would feel just like you probably. The only difference is that now I know better. It's a poor consolation at times though, when I try to convince you guys to take it seriously and consider than Christ may be the real deal, because I know there is no logical way to suggest you believe in something I can't even properly explain! It's frustrating. But just like half the guys here who use PHs, you don't have to know how or why it works to detect that it's no less working. Whether you can understand the endocrine intricacies of protein elaboration and anabolic action, you don't have to understand to take a pill and see real, blatant, undeniable results. That's how god operates, faith is the substance of things promised. If you take a chance to ask God if he's real, he'll honor that first step of yours by substantiating that faith with results. The results of God in your life will become apparent, and your faith in the unseen becomes just as strong as you believe a heart beats in your chest, though you can't see it either for certain. Just a simple prayer, all alone, from an earnest heart, and He vows to respond. You got nothing to lose! Try it man, I wouldn't lie to you or waste my words if I didn't think it couldn't benefit you and yours.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by schwellington View Post

    as for AE14

    I love science- absolutley love it!

    But science cannot explain everything
    so that means god I assume......

    Or is it something, like Dr. D said, that still needs to be searched?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    So to cut to the chase, had I not had the personal experiences I did, I would feel just like you probably. The only difference is that now I know better. It's a poor consolation at times though, when I try to convince you guys to take it seriously and consider than Christ may be the real deal, because I know there is no logical way to suggest you believe in something I can't even properly explain! It's frustrating. But just like half the guys here who use PHs, you don't have to know how or why it works to detect that it's no less working. Whether you can understand the endocrine intricacies of protein elaboration and anabolic action, you don't have to understand to take a pill and see real, blatant, undeniable results. That's how god operates, faith is the substance of things promised. If you take a chance to ask God if he's real, he'll honor that first step of yours by substantiating that faith with results. The results of God in your life will become apparent, and your faith in the unseen becomes just as strong as you believe a heart beats in your chest, though you can't see it either for certain. Just a simple prayer, all alone, from an earnest heart, and He vows to respond. You got nothing to lose! Try it man, I wouldn't lie to you or waste my words if I didn't think it couldn't benefit you and yours.
    the first bolded section is what gives me trouble to be honest.
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