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    Quote Originally Posted by DGSky View Post
    Okay...

    Where does one start to learn more about the basicis of such investing?
    the internet and a financial advisor that specialises in this area.

    there is some really good discussion in this thread - who said lifters were all a pack of meatheads?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakellpet View Post
    ... who said lifters were all a pack of meatheads?
    Haha, even meatheads gotta feed their kids!

    Your insights are appreciated Jakellpet. Thank you to all the fellas here with good input. It helps financial dummies like me a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGSky View Post
    Okay...

    Where does one start to learn more about the basicis of such investing?
    Investing is not like other knowledge you find on the internet. You can get completely conflicting advice from reputable sources at all times, and either one could be completely right depending on macroeconomic factors in the market.

    Most places you go will spew out your standard invest in the market and over time you will see growth strategy. However, there are serious inherent flaws in this strategy, namely inflation.

    I recently read "Crash Proof, How to Profit from the Coming Economic Collapse" by Peter Schiff, and his insights are golden.

    There is mounds of raw data out there, and the best thing you can do is try and interpret that data into a coherent strategy and follow that strategy. My strategy is based on the premise that the dollar is dying and I'm taking what I think is the optimal strategy to maintain profits in this environment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    That is what concerns me. If future currencies have no metal standard, then metals may be worth nothing beyond their industrial uses. Like platinum, it's got a high value now but if the auto industry takes a dip they say that platinum will too.

    Also, it looks like China is buying all kinds of metals, not just precious. I wonder what that's all about.
    What's beautiful about precious metals is that for as long as human beings maintain ascetics has they have for the past 5000+ years, gold, silver, and platinum will still be in demand. Try and by your wife a pyrite and cubic zirconium ring and you'll see what I'm saying?

    The value of precious metal is in the labor that it took to find and mine them as well as the the effort to refine them. That gives the metals objective value.

    Metals like tin and commodities like oil are wanted for their utility alone. Precious metals have both utility and ascetics pushing their value.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakellpet View Post
    there is some really good discussion in this thread - who said lifters were all a pack of meatheads?
    Hells ya. I'd actually like to hear what other strategies people are implementing. This could grow into an interesting mega thread if we can get some contrasting ideas on investing going.
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    FYI: Gold Fever....this is just the start.


    Gold rush erupts over financial crisis
    By Nick Gardner
    The Daily Telegraph
    January 10, 2009 12:01am
    All that glitters ... investors are are ploughing billions of dollars into gold to fend off the financial crisis.

    Record rush on gold in Australia
    Investors convinced gold's a safe haven
    Only time will tell if it is

    THE global financial crisis has sparked a new gold rush.
    Worried investors seeking a safe home for their money are ploughing billions of dollars into the precious metal in a bid to preserve their wealth, The Daily Telegraph reports.

    Demand has now reached such unprecedented levels that the Perth Mint, Australia's biggest wholesaler of gold coins and bars, has been forced to ration its sales.

    Perth Mint's bullion sales rose 194 per cent in the December quarter compared with the corresponding period in 2007, while silver bullion sales were up 140 per cent.

    The mint has suspended sales of all gold bars and all bullion coins - except its 1oz "Kangaroo" gold bullion coin.

    On Monday, after a three-month suspension, it will expand its range of bullion coins for sale but the restrictions remain in place for minted gold bullion bars so the mint can sell some gold to as many customers as possible.

    "We are working three shifts a day, six days a week, and still can't keep up with demand," Perth Mint CEO Ed Harbuz said. "I've never known anything like this in the precious metals market.

    "We would be working Sundays too but we are having difficulty getting enough staff."

    Non-minted gold in the form of cast bars produced by Perth Mint's local refinery can still be bought, although customers who want the bigger bars often have to wait several weeks.

    One customer recently bought $500,000 worth of bullion and wanted it delivered so he could hold it personally.

    "For very big orders we normally keep the gold in our depository for security reasons," Mr Harbuz said.

    "Orders of $10 million or more are not unusual. Often the orders are much larger if we are dealing with pension funds or institutional investors."
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakellpet View Post
    Gold rush erupts over financial crisis
    By Nick Gardner
    The Daily Telegraph
    January 10, 2009 12:01am
    All that glitters ... investors are are ploughing billions of dollars into gold to fend off the financial crisis.

    Record rush on gold in Australia
    Investors convinced gold's a safe haven
    Only time will tell if it is

    THE global financial crisis has sparked a new gold rush.
    Worried investors seeking a safe home for their money are ploughing billions of dollars into the precious metal in a bid to preserve their wealth, The Daily Telegraph reports.

    Demand has now reached such unprecedented levels that the Perth Mint, Australia's biggest wholesaler of gold coins and bars, has been forced to ration its sales.

    Perth Mint's bullion sales rose 194 per cent in the December quarter compared with the corresponding period in 2007, while silver bullion sales were up 140 per cent.

    The mint has suspended sales of all gold bars and all bullion coins - except its 1oz "Kangaroo" gold bullion coin.

    On Monday, after a three-month suspension, it will expand its range of bullion coins for sale but the restrictions remain in place for minted gold bullion bars so the mint can sell some gold to as many customers as possible.

    "We are working three shifts a day, six days a week, and still can't keep up with demand," Perth Mint CEO Ed Harbuz said. "I've never known anything like this in the precious metals market.

    "We would be working Sundays too but we are having difficulty getting enough staff."

    Non-minted gold in the form of cast bars produced by Perth Mint's local refinery can still be bought, although customers who want the bigger bars often have to wait several weeks.

    One customer recently bought $500,000 worth of bullion and wanted it delivered so he could hold it personally.

    "For very big orders we normally keep the gold in our depository for security reasons," Mr Harbuz said.

    "Orders of $10 million or more are not unusual. Often the orders are much larger if we are dealing with pension funds or institutional investors."
    Wow, great find! That's the Perth Mint it the mint that Peter Schiff recommends. It makes me wonder why the price of gold isn't going up at the same rate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Wow, great find! That's the Perth Mint it the mint that Peter Schiff recommends. It makes me wonder why the price of gold isn't going up at the same rate.
    chances are it will Rob - it looks like the small investors have jumped the gun on the institutions
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakellpet View Post
    chances are it will Rob - it looks like the small investors have jumped the gun on the institutions
    I was thinking about selling GLD, as 35-40% of my investments are a bit much for metals, but I'm going to hold now!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I was thinking about selling GLD, as 35-40% of my investments are a bit much for metals, but I'm going to hold now!
    Of all the metals, gold would be the one to keep.

    ...but keep a close eye on Rare Earth Elements (REEs) - there's a current shortage building !
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakellpet View Post
    Of all the metals, gold would be the one to keep.

    ...but keep a close eye on Rare Earth Elements (REEs) - there's a current shortage building !
    I'll look that up....not sure what's included in that. I own a Silver ETF as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I'll look that up....not sure what's included in that. I own a Silver ETF as well.
    Sc, Y, La, Ce, Pr, Nd, Pm, Sm, Eu, Gd, Tb, Dy, Ho, Er, Tm, Yb, Lu

    Dysprositos!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Sc, Y, La, Ce, Pr, Nd, Pm, Sm, Eu, Gd, Tb, Dy, Ho, Er, Tm, Yb, Lu

    Dysprositos!
    Dam, D, what do you do....work in a lab all day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Dam, D, what do you do....work in a lab all day?
    well actually...

    Doesn't everybody have a big chart of the nuclides on their wall? (lol) We make a good team Rob. You show me how to make some money and good investments, and I'll help you with all the technical stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    well actually...

    Doesn't everybody have a big chart of the nuclides on their wall? (lol) We make a good team Rob. You show me how to make some money and good investments, and I'll help you with all the technical stuff.
    Dude, I was down 45% in 2008....I'm really not an investment seer
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Dude, I was down 45% in 2008....I'm really not an investment seer
    You're not alone bro. Most everyone I know in the market is down about half. They fear commodities too, so if it bounces they'll miss out on that also.

    I think Jake may be on to something with the Aussie Au rush and his insights on REEs. When the economy craps out, there won't be much capital for opening new mines, ya know. It makes sense that people in the know would procure needed elements before hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    You're not alone bro. Most everyone I know in the market is down about half. They fear commodities too, so if it bounces they'll miss out on that also.

    I think Jake may be on to something with the Aussie Au rush and his insights on REEs. When the economy craps out, there won't be much capital for opening new mines, ya know. It makes sense that people in the know would procure needed elements before hand.
    I really don't think anyone *knows* whats going to happen. A guy I know was telling me he bought the crap out of American Financials the other day. Who knows, maybe that's the right strategy. I think the strategy I'm trying makes sense from the context of the dollar dying, but I can't guarantee that will happen, and essentially I'm placing my chips in on the government not succeeding vs my friend whose placing his chips on the government succeeding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I really don't think anyone *knows* whats going to happen. ...
    Yeah, you may be right about that my friend. I make no assumptions anymore, it's just too complicated to form a conclusion IMO.

    Are there any hi-cap index funds, specifically heavy in agricultural commodities or metals?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yeah, you may be right about that my friend. I make no assumptions anymore, it's just too complicated to form a conclusion IMO.

    Are there any hi-cap index funds, specifically heavy in agricultural commodities or metals?
    PowerShares Global Agriculture Port(ETF)
    (Public, NASDAQ:PAGG)

    ETFS PREC.METAL ETFS PRECIOUS METALS DJ-AIGCI
    (Public, LON:AIGP)

    Just do a google investment search for ETF (exchange traded fund) and whatever sector of the market you're interested in.
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    Absolute bloodbath today:

    Yamana Gold Inc. (USA) AUY 6.58 -0.45 (-6.40%) -11.10%
    Pengrowth Energy Trust (USA) PGH 7.93 -0.17 (-2.10%) -1.32%
    SPDR Gold Trust (ETF) GLD 81.22 -2.70 (-3.22%) -2.24%
    iShares Silver Trust (ETF) SLV 10.78* -0.32 (-2.86%)-0.80%
    CurrencyShares Australian... FXA 68.51 -2.01 (-2.85%) 2.70%
    USAA S&P 500 Index Member USSPX 13.33 -0.29 (-2.13%) 3.36%
    Johnson & Johnson JNJ 58.94-0.11 (-0.19%) -0.27%
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    Monsanto has almost complete control of the worlds seed supply with patents on 1200 different strains. Their round-up ready seeds spread into neighboring farmers land and they can sue them for damages and patent infringement.
    A presedent was set when the ruling judge in their first case ruled it didnt matter how the seeds got in their crop, only that they were there. If you had no soul and wanted to sell out to the devil monsanto stocks will be the future since they will control the food we eat. GMO crops will be the downfall of human beings but maybe you can get some cash!
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted View Post
    ... If you had no soul and wanted to sell out to the devil monsanto stocks will be the future since they will control the food we eat. GMO crops will be the downfall of human beings but maybe you can get some cash!
    Well, if you believe in the Bible's teachings, remember the parable of the talents. The wise stewards took the master's money and traded in the market with the money exchangers till they had doubled the principle. The master (God) is like a hard man who reaps where he does not sow, and gathers where he does not plant. In other words, I think a God fearing man is fully authorized to cash in on the devil in this worldly system. In fact, the servant who failed to obtain a return on his money was kicked out of the house and even stripped of what little he still had! That would really suck.

    The problem is, you can't make deals with the devil without getting burned somehow, so if Monsanto really is the devil, don't count on a return anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Well, if you believe in the Bible's teachings, remember the parable of the talents. The wise stewards took the master's money and traded in the market with the money exchangers till they had doubled the principle. The master (God) is like a hard man who reaps where he does not sow, and gathers where he does not plant. In other words, I think a God fearing man is fully authorized to cash in on the devil in this worldly system. In fact, the servant who failed to obtain a return on his money was kicked out of the house and even stripped of what little he still had! That would really suck.

    The problem is, you can't make deals with the devil without getting burned somehow, so if Monsanto really is the devil, don't count on a return anyway.
    Well i put little stock in the bible as a whole. There are many many great passages,messages and lessons throughout. Not all of the bible fits into my idea of what god is if there is a "god" and what it/he would have for me or have me do. I believe its a mistake to think the bible is the onlym best, correct or sole "wor of god." Its everywhere and everything.The bible is "life for dummies" as rough guide to show you what to do to maximise your human experience.. these lessons are available outside of the ancient and not so ancient texts as well. I feel that i have a direct connection to god more pure, valid and non corrupt than a passed down, diluted corrupted but generally amazing piece of literature. The depth of understanding of the bible can be poor where linguistic error, comprehesive malfunction and limited consciousness simply doesnt grasp the intent of the words and stories.

    It is for this reason i form my own opinions and seek to expand, alter and grow them. I refuse to be a sheep a blind follower void of heart, introspection and passion for truth.

    I welcome a response in a PM if you think there is a flaw to my logic and if you are interested in monsanto and GMO crops check out "the future of food". Alarming, disturbing and likely to be a great source of human suffering, disease, mutation and illness.

    Good to see you posting again Dr.!
    Last edited by somewhatgifted; 01-13-2009 at 01:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by somewhatgifted View Post
    ... I welcome a response in a PM if you think there is a flaw to my logic and if you are interested in monsanto and GMO crops check out "the future of food". Alarming, disturbing and likely to be a great source of human suffering, disease, mutation and illness.

    Good to see you posting again Dr.!
    Good to see you around again too SWG!
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    If you have money in the market in something other than a fund that shorts, pull it out now. Its going to get bloody. It hit 8200 yesterday, and many people that study fundamentals are predicting as low as 5500.

    Yesterday, retail sales were expected to be 2.2%. They were actually -2.7%. Crazy. Here's my portfolio now.

    Pengrowth Energy Trust (USA) PGH 7.78

    The only reason I kept that is because every month I get 11 new shares off my 500 through dividend reinvestment. If the price plummets that will mean more shares every month.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    If you have money in the market in something other than a fund that shorts, pull it out now. Its going to get bloody. It hit 8200 yesterday, and many people that study fundamentals are predicting as low as 5500.

    Yesterday, retail sales were expected to be 2.2%. They were actually -2.7%. Crazy. Here's my portfolio now.

    Pengrowth Energy Trust (USA) PGH 7.78

    The only reason I kept that is because every month I get 11 new shares off my 500 through dividend reinvestment. If the price plummets that will mean more shares every month.
    It really is a mugs game at the moment but if you can ride out the storm there are certain bargains to be had. One of the traders at my work said the other day in 2 or 3 years we're going to look back at the price of some of these stocks and be amazed at how cheap they were. Its true. With a long term strategy you can really pick up some bargains. Not every company has had the profits eaten up, or massive outstanding loans, or ridiculous derivative positions. Fundamentals have gone out the window these last few months but sooner or later ( i think >6 months from now) they will come back into play and the companies with sustainable profits will shine through.

    Anyone else kinda enjoying seeing these banks tumble??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    It really is a mugs game at the moment but if you can ride out the storm there are certain bargains to be had. One of the traders at my work said the other day in 2 or 3 years we're going to look back at the price of some of these stocks and be amazed at how cheap they were. Its true. With a long term strategy you can really pick up some bargains. Not every company has had the profits eaten up, or massive outstanding loans, or ridiculous derivative positions. Fundamentals have gone out the window these last few months but sooner or later ( i think >6 months from now) they will come back into play and the companies with sustainable profits will shine through.

    Anyone else kinda enjoying seeing these banks tumble??
    While your friend is right, the valuations we're seeing now *should* be low in a couple of years, IMHO your friend is missing a very key point. Stock prices are not determined on valuations, they're determined on the number of buyers and sellers. Valuations are a great guide in a stable market, but when the market is in a downward spiral, as it is now, people are selling stocks and shorting stocks irrationally. This market will have a bottom, and it is not 8000, that much is for certain.

    Look at it this way:

    You own 100 shares of a fund that mirrors the DOW that you bought for 13 dollars a share when the DOW was 13000. Now your 13000 is worth 8000. Well, if the market drops to 5000, that's how much your investment is worth. However, if you sell now, at 8000 and buy back in at 5000, you're getting more than 50% more shares, and when the market pops back up, your profit will be that much sweeter. Just some food for thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    While your friend is right, the valuations we're seeing now *should* be low in a couple of years, IMHO your friend is missing a very key point. Stock prices are not determined on valuations, they're determined on the number of buyers and sellers. Valuations are a great guide in a stable market, but when the market is in a downward spiral, as it is now, people are selling stocks and shorting stocks irrationally. This market will have a bottom, and it is not 8000, that much is for certain.

    Look at it this way:

    You own 100 shares of a fund that mirrors the DOW that you bought for 13 dollars a share when the DOW was 13000. Now your 13000 is worth 8000. Well, if the market drops to 5000, that's how much your investment is worth. However, if you sell now, at 8000 and buy back in at 5000, you're getting more than 50% more shares, and when the market pops back up, your profit will be that much sweeter. Just some food for thought.
    I understand what you're saying. Basically you are trying to pick when the market is going to bottom out. What im saying is forget how much further the DOW could drop, at the end of the day there are still companies out there with healthy earnings and decent yeilding dividends at the CURRENT prices.

    eg. you buy $20K worth of stock at 50c/share.in 5 years time they are worth $1.50 so you have trippled your money which is a great return even IF after you bought the shares they trickled all the way down to 10c/share.....it would be very annoying to watch and you'd need balls to hold onto them but like i said long term if you have done you're research you should be in the money. The thing to remember is if you thought the stock was a bargain at 50c then you can buy more at 40c, 30c etc and your average price will drop right down anyway and a smaller turn around will be needed to break even/make profit.

    as for my traders comment it was made off the cuff when things were tumbling before xmas...as in not a thought went into it but i think he is right. There are going to be fortunes made in the next decade and i intend on bagging one for myself!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    I understand what you're saying. Basically you are trying to pick when the market is going to bottom out. What im saying is forget how much further the DOW could drop, at the end of the day there are still companies out there with healthy earnings and decent yeilding dividends at the CURRENT prices.

    eg. you buy $20K worth of stock at 50c/share.in 5 years time they are worth $1.50 so you have trippled your money which is a great return even IF after you bought the shares they trickled all the way down to 10c/share.....it would be very annoying to watch and you'd need balls to hold onto them but like i said long term if you have done you're research you should be in the money. The thing to remember is if you thought the stock was a bargain at 50c then you can buy more at 40c, 30c etc and your average price will drop right down anyway and a smaller turn around will be needed to break even/make profit.

    as for my traders comment it was made off the cuff when things were tumbling before xmas...as in not a thought went into it but i think he is right. There are going to be fortunes made in the next decade and i intend on bagging one for myself!!
    While I agree with what you're saying, I don't think this will be a a repeat of 2001. This will be more akin to a 1929 type scenario. The market fundamentals are not strong as a whole now, and any individual stock will be hard pressed to get positive results while the market as a whole is doing so bad.

    People expected the market to be worse....a mere 2.2% growth in retail sales was projected. The lowest in years. The market got -2.7% in retail sales growth. Every company that has reported earnings from JP Morgan in financials, to ALCOA in basic materials has missed earnings. Big time. The market has dropped almost 10% THIS WEEK, and its Thursday. Every indicator is a downward spiral, with no bottom yet in site.

    Add in the fact that the US is printing money at exponential rates, and you can count on serious inflationary pressures once the banks stop hoarding their cash and foreign investors shy away from the treasury bubble.

    The fundamentals are BAD.

    I think Jakell said earlier that cash is king. I believe him now. I'm sorry for doubting him before. At least till inflation gets a foothold, then gold is king and cash is a pauper.

    I plan on getting heavy into gold near April-June 2009. Depending on when the dollar shows signs of losing value.
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    ^^^ there's plenty of different strategies people are using in the curent climate. I hope you pick one of the right ones. I'll stick with my current positions and leave the rest in cash for now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    ^^^ there's plenty of different strategies people are using in the curent climate. I hope you pick one of the right ones. I'll stick with my current positions and leave the rest in cash for now.
    Good luck! Nice avatar too
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    well its all doom and gloom for us...if your planning a trip to Australia anytime soon sounds like its going to be cheap for you guys around Xmas this year.....might have a cheeky spreadbet on the USD/AUD rate...

    http://www.news.com.au/business/stor...45-462,00.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    well its all doom and gloom for us...if your planning a trip to Australia anytime soon sounds like its going to be cheap for you guys around Xmas this year.....might have a cheeky spreadbet on the USD/AUD rate...

    http://www.news.com.au/business/stor...45-462,00.html
    Cheap AU dollars should make supps expensive for you tho
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    im in the UK now and the pound has dropped quite a lot but not as much as the AUD. ITs the shipping that kills me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Australian made View Post
    ^^^ there's plenty of different strategies people are using in the curent climate. I hope you pick one of the right ones. I'll stick with my current positions and leave the rest in cash for now.
    word. It's all up to what you perceive as an acceptable level of risk
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