looking for answers....
- 12-30-2011, 09:34 PM
looking for answers....
hope everyones having a blessed holidays.
idk how to start this or what to even really say but please people hear me out and if you have any advice im more than willing to listen.
im a fairly knowledgable lifter and health guy.
im 22 5-11 169lbs.
i have a nice body id say.abs are pretty developed and shoulders are my strong point.
incline db chest press-90lb for about 7 reps
db flat press 100lb for 9 reps
arnold shoulder press 75lbs for 5 reps
can do amazing with reps on any bodyweight exercise.
can dip 110lbs attached to me for 8 reps.
im just throwing all that out there to show that i am a okay lifter,not super strong but just an average lifter when it comes to weight.
i know i do alot of abs but i find the more abs i do the better they show.
basically what im trying to get to is that as of lately within last 3 months no matter what i do...(even if i switch routines,change tempos, change reps,change weight) im just not seeing any more body changes as far as my body looking anybetter.
i bust my arse in the gym 5-6 days a week and put in major work yet no matter what my body feels like its going downhill.
chest wont get any tighter,arms are staying same,shoulders same,legs same,everything stays same.
my weight seem to switch from 163-170 alot. one day ill be 163 and 2 days later back to 166.
its just a continuous cycle where i bust arse and do goood work in the gym and im just not seeing any body changes and its coming to the point where its mentaly having an effect on me.
i eat very well i personally think.
6am-6 organic eggs,toast,and whole grain oats with glass of milk.
take a serving of green tea pills,l airgine pills,and also some glutamine
930-protein shake and a piece of jerky or almonds
1130-12 - chicken/talapia or protein shake with preworkout supp with a carb
1-2 gym for hr.
2-230-after gym i immediately take in protein shake with some sort of sugar and carb
4-chicken and light carb
also take glutamine and green tea pills
6-dinner which consists of some chicken/talapia as well as some bread or some veggies
11pm -casesin protein shake with lil peanut butter and organic 2%milk
someone please give me some type of advice.
i need to see changes in my body.
ive been very very patient but its honestly starting to get me a little depressed.
thanks and God bless
- 01-01-2012, 01:15 AM
sorry if my reply is a bit ****ty but its 5pm and been a long day......i would personally take a step back and go on a fullbody 5x5 type routine, and grease your diet up abit man, seems too healthy for my liking bump up that food intake and add some cheat meals.....
Now below is my even lazier answer which may help you:
It always bugs me when someone says that there is no relationship between size and strength. It’s bugged me since I took up weight training 36 years ago. They said it back then and they’re still saying it. In this article, I’m going to lay this myth to rest and explain the true relationship between size and strength. In the process, I will explain why it is absolutely critical that you skinny bastards incorporate bodybuilding training methods into your routines if you aren’t gaining muscle mass by powerlifting. First, here’s a little background.
I took up weight training after getting my ass kicked. A bully from another neighborhood beat the crap out of me, and it was a major turning point in my life. If you’ve ever had your face punched while the back of your head was against a wall or the pavement, you know it’s like two punches for the price of one. The first impact is against your face. The second comes from the back of your head hitting the street. I made up my mind that that wasn’t going to happen again and began a lifelong quest to get bigger and stronger. To say I was motivated is an understatement.
I started working out in my basement and reading the bodybuilding magazines that were available in the early 1970s. When I turned 18, I joined the first bodybuilding gym on Long Island called Futureman. We used every intensity technique known to man, and I was chronically overtrained.
After several years of bodybuilding, I weighed 207 lbs at a height of just over six feet, and my walking around weight was around 183–185 lbs. So we’re talking about a gain of roughly 20–23 lbs of muscle mass on a medium weight bone structure.
The strength and size gains stopped when I reached 207 lbs. After several years of overtraining and zero gains, I decided to try powerlifting and started reading Powerlifting USA, which was then in its early days. My goals were simple—increase my strength and gain more muscle mass.
I put together a powerlifting routine and stuck with that over a period of around five years. This routine was made up of low rep narrow stance back squats, front squats, partial squats, deadlifts, stiff-leg deadlifts, partial deadlifts, weighted chins, pull-downs, bench presses, close grip bench presses, weighted dips, partial benches, barbell rows, barbell curls, push-downs, lying triceps extensions, and wrist curls. All of the dinky little bodybuilding exercises were cut out to conserve energy/recovery ability for the big lifts. I didn’t take any drugs of any kind, and I used few supplements. I figured that with the combination of basic exercises, heavy weights, and fewer sets I would start gaining size and weight again. I really wanted to get to 225 lbs.
After just a couple years on this routine, my strength went up quite a bit. These were my best raw lifts:
- Bench press, 355 X 5, 400 X 1
- Dips, 155 X 5
- Chins, 100 X 5
- Rows, 275 X 5
- Deadlift, 500 X 5
- Stiff leg deadlift, 440 X 5
- Squat, 440 X 5
- Wrist curls, 185 X 5
My experience left me confused. I couldn’t make sense of what happened and why I failed to get any bigger. It was hard for me to believe that I had reached the limits of my “genetic potential” at 207 lbs, especially because my legs were pretty skinny. I knew my experience wasn’t unique because I had a training partner who matched me lift for lift and made identical strength gains. He also failed to gain a pound. He started the program at 217 lbs and ended at 217 lbs.
Over time, I realized that what happened to me and my training partner actually answered many questions I had about the relationship between muscular size/muscle mass and strength. More importantly, I realized why I failed to gain weight and what I could have done to keep the gains coming. Skinny bastards, listen up…
I have listed a series of “lessons” or principles that I learned from my experience that apply to bodybuilding and powerlifting/strength training. Some of them appear to contradict one another at first glance. However, they are all truisms nonetheless. If you keep them in mind, they will help you to design a program that will enable you to achieve the results you’re looking for.
Here it goes…
Intense bodybuilding training with sub-maximal poundage can increase size and strength but will not generally develop maximal strength. Obvious, right? This is where we start, and it’s important that we all agree that it is possible for some people to develop significant muscle mass without handling (or being able to handle) “heavy”/maximal poundage. This principle is beyond dispute. Bodybuilders can develop muscle mass using training methods and exercises that no strength athlete would ever consider using. Some examples include high rep sets, pre-exhaustion, forced reps, negative reps, negative accentuated reps, training to failure, drop sets, giant sets, supersets, and training with little or no rest between sets. All of these methods increase the “intensity” of the exercises and produce muscle mass gains even though many of them actually reduce the amount of weight that can be used.
Former Mr. A., Steve Michalik, has said many times that exercise poundage is irrelevant, and he can induce muscle mass gains with any poundage. All that matters is the intensity of the exercise. Many people use this as a jumping off point to make the argument that there is no relationship between size and strength. This argument represents sloppy thinking. Let’s keep going.
By using powerlifting training methods, it is possible to dramatically increase the strength of muscle mass that was developed through bodybuilding with light/moderate weights. Read that again. This means that a person who develops muscle mass through bodybuilding with moderate poundage can turn to powerlifting and gain significant strength in existing muscle mass.
Many people have major problems with what I just wrote. They think that if a person develops their body using light weights in a bodybuilding routine, the weights they are using reflect their actual powerlifting potential. This is flat wrong. A bodybuilder’s large muscles may possess a lot of power potential that is untapped because of the way he/she trains. A big bodybuilder can change over to powerlifting and dramatically increase the maximal strength of his/her “existing” muscle mass using powerlifting techniques. This has been shown over and over again.
Does this mean that all bodybuilders with heavy muscle mass can be strong by powerlifting standards if they train like powerlifters? Bad question. What it means is this. If we took a group of big bodybuilders and dropped them at the Westside Barbell Club and Louie Simmons trained them, they would probably all experience dramatic increases in their maximal strength. Some would be as strong as Elite powerlifters and some wouldn’t. However, their individual maximal strength limits would increase.
The practical ramification of what I just wrote is this. A person can use bodybuilding with sub-maximal weights to increase their muscle mass and then use powerlifting methods to increase the maximal strength of that mass. Do you agree with that statement?
Lesson # 3
Some people who switch over to powerlifting from bodybuilding do not get bigger even though they are getting stronger. What happens to these people is that they tap into the maximal strength “potential” of the mass they developed through their bodybuilding training. This idea bothers people. They think that if I was one size when I was benching 275 lbs for reps while using a ton of bodybuilding exercises, I will be much bigger when I switch to powerlifting and bench 350 lbs for reps. Not necessarily! You may not be any bigger even though the poundage you are using is heavier. The muscle mass you developed is increasing in strength up to its full potential and may not increase in size.
This is hard for people to believe, but it is absolutely true. Bodybuilding training that produces muscle mass gains actually retards maximal strength development. Switch a person who has trained on a bodybuilding system to a powerlifting system and they can increase maximal strength without gaining additional mass.
Lesson # 4
The amount of muscle mass you carry imposes a “ceiling” on your maximal strength. To continually increase maximal strength, most people must increase their muscle mass. What does this mean? I gained 23 lbs through bodybuilding. I turned to powerlifting and experienced significant strength gains but no muscle mass gains. Then the strength gains stopped.
In my opinion, I tapped out the strength potential of that 23-lb muscle mass gain when I switched over to powerlifting, and I was about as strong as that muscle mass would allow. Looking back, I do not think I could have gained much more strength without gaining more muscle mass. Why is this?
First, I am not a naturally strong person. Some people are born with superhuman strength. I have trained with some of them, and I am not one of those people. So for me, my strength increases come from muscle mass increases. And my 23-lb mass gain was not that great for a guy who is over six feet tall.
Take a look at the training logs of some of the guys who write for EliteFTS.com. I’m going to pick on Matt K for a minute. Matt’s extraordinary training lifts are listed in his training log. They are unbelievable, and they blow my training lifts away. However, consider Matt’s stats for a moment. Ask yourself, “How tall is Matt? How big is his frame? What is his untrained walking around weight?” His present weight is around a lean 250 lbs. Matt possesses far more muscle mass than I did, and every pound of Matt’s muscle mass increases his strength potential.
Consider bodybuilding great Franco Colombu. Here was a guy who was around five feet, five inches, possibly shorter. His walking around weight? Maybe 130 lbs? Born with superhuman strength, he stepped onto the stage at the Felt Forum in New York City on a night that he was competing for Mr. Olympia and deadlifted over 700 lbs for reps! I was there to see it. He gained up to 175–180 lbs in competition form. That’s a muscle mass gain of 45–50 lbs on a small frame. That’s a lot of muscle mass on a small guy with way above average strength potential.
My starting strength? Average. My muscle mass gain? 23 lbs at a height of over six feet tall. How much total weight would I have to gain in order to make muscle mass gains that were proportionate to Matt or Franco? 70 lbs? More? How strong would I be if I could achieve those gains? Do you think it would be possible for me to deadlift 700 lbs if I gained another 40–50 lbs of muscle mass? Maybe.
"Dont worry about the burn man! You can do Jane Fonda classes if you want the burn"
- 01-01-2012, 01:15 AM
The strongest lifter in any given weight class is not necessarily the lifter with the most muscle mass because lifting maximal weights involves more factors than just muscle mass.
The ability to demonstrate maximal strength is a function of many factors, including muscle mass and something we refer to as “leverages.” The truth is that no one understands why an elite group of people such as Franco Colombu are so incredibly strong in comparison to the average person or what the source of their great strength is. To explain this dramatic difference in strength, we say that these people were born with “good leverages.” Read that again because it’s true. Some old timers out there may recall stories about the Russians wanting to study Paul Anderson and take tissue samples from him to figure out what made the guy so strong.
The victory podium at a major powerlifting contest always has a variety of body types. Some are slender and some are massive. This disparity confuses people. Some people look at the disparity in body types and say things like, “This proves that muscle size has no relationship to strength.” The reality is more subtle.
Some people are capable of lifting amazing poundage because of their incredible “leverages.” Other lifters lack this advantage but have bodies that are able to develop amazing amounts of muscle mass. This mass coupled with their natural leverages allows them to lift comparable poundage.
The person who wins in a strength contest may or may not have huge muscle mass. For example, Mike MacDonald is a person who did not develop huge muscle mass when he bench pressed gigantic weights. There are other guys like him and they are unusual people. Some of these guys win contests and don’t look very big.
Back in the day, Dave Shaw (to name just one example) developed enormous muscle mass in conjunction with his development of maximal strength. His body type was radically different than Mike McDonald’s, but both men were amazingly strong. This type of lifter wins contests, too.
Developing and increasing strength—for the majority of males past puberty—requires an increase in muscle mass (i.e. the development of “bigger” muscles). A small group of men are capable of developing strength with small increases in their muscle mass because their bodies are more “efficient” at lifting heavy weights. This group may not develop as much mass through their weight training. However, both groups need to increase their muscle mass to increase their maximal strength.
The bottom line is that to increase maximal strength the vast majority of men must increase their muscle mass. More muscle mass means a greater potential for the development of maximal strength. Whether or not a person develops unusually “big” muscles is a function of their own unique genetics.
Not everyone makes muscle mass gains with powerlifting training. Some people must train with higher reps to stimulate muscle mass gains.
This is a hard truth, but EliteFTS has the guts to admit this and offer advice on how to get around this problem by using a hypertrophy routine as a form of “foundation” training. This is the idea behind Joe DeFranco’s, “Westside for Skinny Bastards” routine. The idea is that you can increase your muscle mass and prepare your body for powerlifting by lifting sub-maximal weights in a quasi-bodybuilding routine with higher reps. Then you switch over to powerlifting and develop the strength potential of that muscle mass.
If you love powerlifting but are not gaining muscle mass through your powerlifting routine and your strength is stagnant, you may have to do some bodybuilding for a time to gain enough mass to make meaningful strength gains. It sounds bizarre, but it’s true, as noted above. Basically, your mass places a ceiling on your power, and you don’t have enough mass. Gain more mass, and you generally raise the ceiling.
Why do some people fail to gain mass on a powerlifting routine? The classic answer is that the reps are too low. Higher reps are needed to gain muscle mass. Yet some people develop a lot of mass on powerlifting routines. No one really knows why. Accept reality and adjust according to your body type.
In order to gain more muscle mass through bodybuilding, you may need to increase your strength by powerlifting.
Now, this is where the apparent contradictions set in. How can we reconcile lesson six with lesson seven? If powerlifting does not increase mass in some people, how can we use it to gain mass? Lessons six and seven contradict one another, right? Weight training in general is full of false, apparent contradictions, and no one ever bothers to explain them. Lessons six and seven don’t contradict one another.
Back in the golden age of bodybuilding, bodybuilders trained heavy in the winter months, put on weight, and supposedly gained more muscle mass. In the warmer months when the contests approached, the guys trained lighter with bodybuilding routines, reduced their body fat levels, and entered contests heavier than they were the year before. That was the theory. This method of training and eating fell out of favor. Bulking up in the winter time made you fat, but it didn’t add mass. Does that mean that this method was a flop?
Take a look at how I trained and consider my failure to gain the muscle mass that I wanted through powerlifting. I originally gained muscle mass using moderate weights in an intense bodybuilding routine, and I later increased my strength when I switched to powerlifting. My muscle mass did not increase, but my strength levels did. If you were giving me advice today about gaining muscle mass, what would you tell me to do?
I would do two things differently. I would eat leaner, more nutritious foods, and I would take the increased strength that I gained from my powerlifting and apply it to a bodybuilding routine, making sure that my bodybuilding poundage was heavier than what I used before I started powerlifting. I might very well have started gaining muscle mass again.
For example, by powerlifting, I was able to increase my bench press quite a bit over what I was able to do when I did bodybuilding. What if I had gone back to bodybuilding and started doing sets of eight with 300 lbs? What if I had dropped the weights in every exercise and increased the reps? Would I have gained more mass? I never tried this.
When you look at my experience in this light, the old bulking up method from the golden age makes sense. Take some time off from bodybuilding to power lift. Then take the strength increases from powerlifting in the off-season and apply them to your bodybuilding routine. By cycling in and out of a powerlifting routine, old time bodybuilders applied their strength increases to their bodybuilding exercises and kept their size/muscle mass gains going up. The idea that “bulking up” increased muscle size was wrong. However, the underlying concept of gaining strength in the off-season to help one’s bodybuilding training actually made sense.
In hindsight, the mistake I made was to give up. But I really had no other choice because I started to hurt myself. I desperately needed to gain more mass, but I didn’t know it. I should have taken those strength increases and switched back to a heavier bodybuilding routine for a time. That would have given my body a break from the “heavy” weights (the weights were “heavy” in relation to the skimpy mass that I was carrying) and allowed me to gain more muscle mass. If I then went back to powerlifting, I might not have pulled those muscles, and I could have made more strength gains.
Some guys say the following on this very website—“I started pulling muscles when I reached certain weights. So that was the limit of my genetic potential.” Maybe. It may be more accurate to say that you reached the strength limits of your existing level of muscle mass. Maybe you needed to increase your muscle mass, and you would’ve been able to lift heavier weights and avoid the muscle pulls.
Adjust your routine according to your particular circumstances. If you’re a bodybuilder and your gains are stagnant, consider doing some powerlifting. You may not gain more mass, but that’s okay. Give yourself time to gain enough strength to increase your bodybuilding poundage in a meaningful way, and you may increase your muscle mass when you return to bodybuilding.
So in conclusion, how do we make sense of these principles and apply them in the real world? First, assess how your body responds to powerlifting. Powerlifting workouts are often abbreviated. If you are gaining muscle mass as your strength increases, that’s good. However, if you’re not, you may need to switch to a bodybuilding program of some kind to increase your muscle mass. The same thing applies if you’re significantly underweight for your height. You may find that powerlifting does not do enough to stimulate needed muscle mass gains.
Try DeFranco’s, “Westside for Skinny Bastards” routine and monitor your muscle mass gains. Look for meaningful gains in lean muscle mass, taking into account your height and weight. Then switch back to a powerlifting program, and your strength should go up.
Be aware that you may not gain any muscle mass when you power lift even though your body is gaining strength. Ideally, your body will respond to the powerlifting training, and you will experience a muscle mass increase as your strength goes up. However, it may not. If you don’t gain mass and you hit a strength plateau that continues for an extended period, you may need to take those strength gains and apply them to a hypertrophy program to start gaining mass again."Dont worry about the burn man! You can do Jane Fonda classes if you want the burn"
01-01-2012, 08:51 AM
Very good read.
Had some eye openers in there.
01-01-2012, 09:11 AM
That is some excellent advise up there .. What I see right off is your diet .. You don't eat enough .. I didn't do the macros but I eat more than that when I am cutting .. You need to find out what your base caloric needs are (google) then add 300 per day .. You need to feed muscle to make it grow .. There is a diet, where you fast for most of the day and still make gains, can be found in the nutrition forum, some say it works very well for them .. I can't post links yet so I can't make it easy for you, perhaps others will post links .. Add some calories, change your routine and you will see changes ..
01-01-2012, 11:02 PM
really appreciate you guys advice and def will touch bases with it and put to use.
scares me to know i have to eat a lil more bad food but if thats what it takes im willing to do it.
thanks alot for all the help, trully am thankful.
01-02-2012, 12:53 AM
Your BMR (the calories you would burn if you lied in bed all day) is 1911cals. (THE ONLY DIFFERENCE HERE IS YOUR MAINTENANCE CALORIES ARE 1871)
You haven't stated your activity level through out the day but:
So for arguments sake we will say your number 3.(moderatetely active.) 1911 x 1.55 ='s 2962calories (2900)
- If you are sedentary (little or no exercise) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.2
- If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.375
- If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55
- If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.725
- If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical job or 2x training) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.9
If your wanting to bulk add 500calories to 2962 (2962+500) = (3462) This would be the number of calories you would want to consume (a day) (3400)
- Protein can vary with what ever people think is the optimal amount but for bulking and arguments sake we will say 1.5 - 2grams of protein per pound of bodyweight. (1.5 x 170) = (255grams) of protein (a day) (254)
- Carbs is around 2-3grams of carbs per pound of bodyweight - (170x2) = (340grams) of carbs (a day) (338)
So to sum everything up for you, and to bulk you will need to consume the following: (Based on you being moderately active)
- Fats I like to work round 20% of my caloric intake so for you (20% of 3462calories) = (70grams) of fat (a day) (68)
There you go mate i felt nice (hand fed with a silver spoon lmao)
- Calories - 3462 (3400)
- Protein - 255 (254)
- Carbs - 340 (338)
- Fats - 70 (68)
"Dont worry about the burn man! You can do Jane Fonda classes if you want the burn"
01-02-2012, 12:55 AM
U know ur sh1t that's for sure....Originally Posted by Newtonselite
Or know where to find it at least lol
01-02-2012, 01:04 AM
Been a competitive bodybuilder and own a PT business now for quite a few yrs lol. So hopefully im not making to much BS up hahaha, i do love to on occasions though Sometimes its so hard to give decent advice on the net as every bodies different, people have conflicting views, you have dumb ppl telling dumber people what to do, youve got experienced guys telling other experienced guys what to do, but ends up into an all out war coz they have conflicting views, but in the end are trying to reach the same goal, the list of variables is endless hahaha But i make an effort here an there where i can and if someone disagrees well its up to the OP to see what he feels will suit him or agrees with him most lol...
"Dont worry about the burn man! You can do Jane Fonda classes if you want the burn"
01-02-2012, 04:41 AM
Wow newton only 265 posts and im already liken yah. Welcome to a.m. lolOriginally Posted by Newtonselite
01-05-2012, 07:02 PM
Newtonselite your info really made sense to me. I know I'm not helping out the original post at all here but just want to say I finally registered on the site just so I could say thanks for the info. It's nice to read real experience stories. I will def keep your insights in mind while reaching for my goals. Cheers!
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