Why do so many roid boys do natural shows?

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  1. @ bill
    do you have any links to show PH are toxic?
    I dont do them, but i KNOW they are toxic- I'm not retarted. But i wanted a link of actual info to send to a friend of mine, who thinks they're OK just b/c they are legal.


  2. is that supposed to be sarcastic or a real comment?
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  3. Nah dude its real. Im serious. I dont take PH. My buddy does. Hes just plain old stupid, and doesnt know they're bad for you. I just was wondering if you knew any SPECIFIC links, that I could send to him.

  4. not off the top of my head, but im sure you could find some if you google.... i prefer peoples blood work reports mid-cycle though, and you can find a lot of those around here if you dig deep enough.

  5. What does toxic mean?

    If you are talking about hepatoxicity, I'd rather do controlled cycles of a PH for 6-8 weeks at a time than take tylenol every day for aches and pains...
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  6. Dude. I NEVER suggested taking tylenol or asprin ever day. And youre stupid if you compare the dmg from that to the dmg caused by PH. Asprin doesnt suppress your bodys normal fxn of creating tst

  7. And if you have a headache or aches and pains every day you need to go to the damn chiropractor. nobody should feel like that. you're not 80 yrs old.

  8. and why would that be?

    tylenol poses no threat to a healthy individual, taking a normal dosage, who isnt drinking because their body is able to detoxify the metabolite which actually causes the liver problems in tylenol. its not actually the acetaminophen thats toxic, its the metabolite produced in the liver, which is detoxified in most circumstances.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post
    Dude. I NEVER suggested taking tylenol or asprin ever day. And youre stupid if you compare the dmg from that to the dmg caused by PH. Asprin doesnt suppress your bodys normal fxn of creating tst
    Why are you being so volatile? Where is the need to call me stupid? I was asking what you meant by toxic? And you still didn't answer.

    Tylenol is not aspirin. I never said aspirin anywhere.

  10. Double post

  11. Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    and why would that be?

    tylenol poses no threat to a healthy individual, taking a normal dosage, who isnt drinking because their body is able to detoxify the metabolite which actually causes the liver problems in tylenol. its not actually the acetaminophen thats toxic, its the metabolite produced in the liver, which is detoxified in most circumstances.
    I understand the pharmacology of tylenol, trust me. It was more in the context of long term habitual usage.

  12. well then, yeah, but thats kind of comparing apples to oranges if you're not going to compare them on the same basis.

  13. I was just asking what this guy meant by toxic. He never defined it. I don't consider down regulation of testosterone production a toxic effect. It's a negative feedback loop, it has nothing to do with a chemical being a poison.

    And just for 'bar trivia' tylenol causes more liver failure related deaths than all other drugs combined.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    I was just asking what this guy meant by toxic. He never defined it. I don't consider down regulation of testosterone production a toxic effect. It's a negative feedback loop, it has nothing to do with a chemical being a poison.

    And just for 'bar trivia' tylenol causes more liver failure related deaths than all other drugs combined.
    That is flawed logic. Giving an example of a drug that is more liver toxic long term does not change the fact that oral methylated prohormones are liver toxic or justify its use. It is not like someone has the choice to either run a PH cycle or go on tylenol for the rest of their life. And the tylenol usage is for quality of life improvements, not for performance enhancement benefits.

  15. I don't understand all the hate.

    The reason for drug usage is not relevant. Nor am I justifying the use. I feel like people are putting words in my mouth?

    The whole statement was said in jest because he never defined his term 'toxic' or 'bad for you' and therefore it was tough to respond to his post.

    I consider performance enhancement a quality of life improvement :-p

  16. I am not hating on you just seemed like you were justifying PH usage based on another drug being toxic...I hate logic like that pet peeve of mine lol.

  17. I'm not justifying anything .

    I was literally just trying to understand what he was saying so I can be productive in the thread.

    But, on a personal note, I'd rather use my glutathione for other biochemistry than to eat up ****ty OTC drug metabolites. That's a waste of good glutathione!

  18. Sounds like there might be a whey to help you with that problem

  19. agreed.

    I suppose I should have abandoned my legitimate urge to help when 'retarded' was spelled 'retarted' while simultaneously being called stupid by the same person.

    Abandoning....... now.

  20. @ the proffessor. "
    I apologize brother I misread everything. By toxic I just meant the LIVER damage.
    I mean cmon, we all know that oral PH's are actually worse than injectibles because you are making the liver work really hard to break down that pill...
    Idk the exact science behind it, idk much about them, but I do know that above statement. (I dont take either PH or real steroids, i'm a natty bb)
    But I do know alot of people that have been bodybuilding for quite some time and have taken real injectibles and all have told me that the orals are much worse for you!

  21. im not sure i understand what youre trying to say then. i never said anything about down regulation of test, i was speaking specifically on liver toxicity and/or its other negative effects like on cholesterol levels.

    again, throwing out a fact like that about tylenol is taking everything out of context. tylenol causes so many problems because so many people use (or, misuse) it. if the exact same person in the exact same health were to take the dosage of tylenol thats recommended for aches and pains everyday for 6 weeks, i can guarantee that their liver values would not be as out of whack as taking the dosage of a methylated prohormone for 6 weeks without support supps thats recommended to make gains... but i guess what youre saying is that taking copious amounts of tylenol for long periods of time would be worse than taking a methylated prohormone for a short period of time while taking the right support supplements, to which i may not disagree with you, but again, its kind of a weak comparison.

    i guess my stance is in agreement with bigdavid... it seems like youre trying to justify ph's being 'safe' or whatever by mentioning other substances that can also have adverse side effects.

    my whole point in this was that for the betterment of the general (uninformed) populations health, prohormones are better off banned. simply because most people dont know how to use them properly (sure, we do, but the fact that were subscribers to anabolicminds says something about our interests as compared to an average kid/guy wanting to get big so he walks into a complete nutrition or wherever and says 'give me something that will make me big'). im not anti-ph's/aas in the idea of using them, just the legality of them.

    the thing is, they require much more knowledge about how to use them properly than most any other legally available substance with toxic side effects.

  22. well... there were a bunch of posts made while i wrote mine.... total digression i guess

  23. Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    I don't understand all the hate.

    The reason for drug usage is not relevant. Nor am I justifying the use. I feel like people are putting words in my mouth?

    The whole statement was said in jest because he never defined his term 'toxic' or 'bad for you' and therefore it was tough to respond to his post.
    I consider performance enhancement a quality of life improvement :-p
    Hey bud, I feel ya lol. Even better, I have bloods to prove it haha! I just recently posted my bloodwork after a cycle of Test Prop, Superdrol, Trenazone and H-Drol. I bridged the SD into the Trenazone then stacked the Tren with a low dose H-Drol. Bloods came back fine with my ALT's and AST's slightly out of the ref range, which doesn't mean doodoo. I even made sure a nurse practitioner agree with me.

    Anyways, I took 250mg UDCA from weeks 4-6 and everything turned out fine. Granted, 1) I didn't drink while on cycle, 2) I had a relatively clean diet, 3) I didn't overdose my PH's, and 4) well, my liver is just kingpin lol. I never worked him hard so it's not like my liver was weezing over the SD.

    The first set of bloods are the ones you want to look at which you'll see a little black pop-up box next to the results. Those bloods were taken 2 DAYS after I stopped the Trenazone and H-Drol. Here is the link: Discussion of Blood Results and effectiveness of Triptorelin in PCT, the liver values can be found in between the "Albumin, serum" and the "ALT" values...

    I'm tired of naysayers talking about steroid use and being uber harmful to our bodies. Honestly, the panzy Olympic Organiztion demonized it early on NOT beacuse they deemed them harmful BUT because they WORKED and created unfair competition. Granted, they could've left it alone for a few more years and then everyone would have been on them and no one would have been crying about being a loser. Regardless, it's a bunch of crap hearing people talk about the unknown/known dangers of steroid use. In fact, steroids are being implemented into the medical industry more and more, especially for women these days. There are very strict, well known protocol's for taking each and every type of steroid under the sun these days and yet some people think that it's stil super uber dangerous and harmful to the liver. HOGWASH. Take care of your body, monitor it, make adjustments, get huge, be stronger, be leaner, stop crying.

  24. [QUOTE=bill86;3069254]im not sure i understand what youre trying to say then. i never said anything about down regulation of test, i was speaking specifically on liver toxicity and/or its other negative effects like on cholesterol levels.

    again, throwing out a fact like that about tylenol is taking everything out of context. tylenol causes so many problems because so many people use (or, misuse) it. if the exact same person in the exact same health were to take the dosage of tylenol thats recommended for aches and pains everyday for 6 weeks, i can guarantee that their liver values would not be as out of whack as taking the dosage of a methylated prohormone for 6 weeks without support supps thats recommended to make gains... but i guess what youre saying is that taking copious amounts of tylenol for long periods of time would be worse than taking a methylated prohormone for a short period of time while taking the right support supplements, to which i may not disagree with you, but again, its kind of a weak comparison.

    Well, didn't u just answer yourself with that statement? Jeeze, this isn't an argument about whether or not you can pop 50mg of SD/day for 6 weeks and still be healthy..no, it's about whether or not PH's can be just as safe as other aggressive medications not related to performance enhancement. My bloods prove that with supporting supplements (UDCA), you can manage just fine on some methylated compounds without worry. And heck, I didn't even take milk thistle..imagine if I did.

  25. a) no... actually... my argument was not whether they can be as safe, its whether the general population is educated enough to use them safely, thus, whether or not they should be legal

    b) saying that ONE person (you) had bloods come back fine is PROOF that people in general can manage fine without worry on ph's is idiotic.

  26. flawed logic...everywhere

  27. Ok. Aceroni was cool and left a message on my profile so I'll add my official two cents since he clarified the toxicity thing.

    Bill86: Methylated steroids are not toxic, it is the metabolite of the methylated steroid that is toxic .

    Aceroni: The steroid is glucuronidated and it's that glucose 'analogue' that is toxic and causes build up of bile in the liver. eventually causing jaundice etc etc etc

    Since steroids interact with the nucleus in the cell, it is likely that this glucuronidated steroid is transported to the nucleus in the liver cell and represses the gene that regulates bile blow.

    The same effects occurr with estrogens as well. They both function in the nucleus and if they are both glucuronidated they are likely to cause the same issues.

    Steroid D-Ring Glucuronides: Characterization of a New Class of Cholestatic Agents
    1983, Vol. 14, No. 5 , Pages 1005-1019

    The pragmatic issue of the liver damage is discussed in this paper, which is almost 30 years old...
    In this case, the actual mechanism of bile build up in the liver is not relevant,
    it happens regardless.

    I'm not sure that mechanistic information would be terribly useful in this thread anyhow. no need to do anymore digging than I have to.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    a) no... actually... my argument was not whether they can be as safe, its whether the general population is educated enough to use them safely, thus, whether or not they should be legal

    b) saying that ONE person (you) had bloods come back fine is PROOF that people in general can manage fine without worry on ph's is idiotic.
    Thanks, so now I'm an idiot. And all because I'm in the top 1% that used real scientific evidence to come to a conclusion rather than bro science and how I "feel" during and after my cycle. Ok.

    I just thought you guys would welcome some real scientific support for a more accurate conclusion about methylated PH's. Apparently I was wrong. I'll let you guys hash this one out w/o me.

    Good luck.

  29. @fueled passion. I never said steroids were terrible for ya bro. I said oral prohormones are horrible for ya...
    Anyone I've ever talked to at the gym, whos clearly been lifting most of their lives, all say that if you are opting to do one or the other, take injectibles because they are much less harmful for you.

    But again I dont do either, and im not saying to do either...

  30. Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post
    @fueled passion. I never said steroids were terrible for ya bro. I said oral prohormones are horrible for ya...
    Anyone I've ever talked to at the gym, whos clearly been lifting most of their lives, all say that if you are opting to do one or the other, take injectibles because they are much less harmful for you.

    But again I dont do either, and im not saying to do either...
    I respect that statement and I believe you are right. I believe oral steroids/pro-hormones are far more consequential than oil and water based injections.

    It's even more pathetic to see that, between the two different routes one can take with steroid use, the one that is legal is by far and large the most harmful which I believe supports my claims about steroids not being banned because of harmfulness. It, like most things in government regulation, was deemed illegal due to social influences and demonization of the substances themselves. The fact is steroids got off to a bad start with terrible media and it will take pages upon pages of scientific evidence saying otherwise to undo the negative perception that it currently has.

    I meant no disrespect to others, BTW. I have a strong opinion about most things in life which tends to create heated tension. I apologize but despite my stubborn opinion, I never ever have an angry or hurtful heart about the conversation. I would forfeit the debate long before I damage a relationship with another person...even if I hardly know them.
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