Why do so many roid boys do natural shows?

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    im not sure i understand what youre trying to say then. i never said anything about down regulation of test, i was speaking specifically on liver toxicity and/or its other negative effects like on cholesterol levels.

    again, throwing out a fact like that about tylenol is taking everything out of context. tylenol causes so many problems because so many people use (or, misuse) it. if the exact same person in the exact same health were to take the dosage of tylenol thats recommended for aches and pains everyday for 6 weeks, i can guarantee that their liver values would not be as out of whack as taking the dosage of a methylated prohormone for 6 weeks without support supps thats recommended to make gains... but i guess what youre saying is that taking copious amounts of tylenol for long periods of time would be worse than taking a methylated prohormone for a short period of time while taking the right support supplements, to which i may not disagree with you, but again, its kind of a weak comparison.

    i guess my stance is in agreement with bigdavid... it seems like youre trying to justify ph's being 'safe' or whatever by mentioning other substances that can also have adverse side effects.

    my whole point in this was that for the betterment of the general (uninformed) populations health, prohormones are better off banned. simply because most people dont know how to use them properly (sure, we do, but the fact that were subscribers to anabolicminds says something about our interests as compared to an average kid/guy wanting to get big so he walks into a complete nutrition or wherever and says 'give me something that will make me big'). im not anti-ph's/aas in the idea of using them, just the legality of them.

    the thing is, they require much more knowledge about how to use them properly than most any other legally available substance with toxic side effects.

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    well... there were a bunch of posts made while i wrote mine.... total digression i guess
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    I don't understand all the hate.

    The reason for drug usage is not relevant. Nor am I justifying the use. I feel like people are putting words in my mouth?

    The whole statement was said in jest because he never defined his term 'toxic' or 'bad for you' and therefore it was tough to respond to his post.
    I consider performance enhancement a quality of life improvement :-p
    Hey bud, I feel ya lol. Even better, I have bloods to prove it haha! I just recently posted my bloodwork after a cycle of Test Prop, Superdrol, Trenazone and H-Drol. I bridged the SD into the Trenazone then stacked the Tren with a low dose H-Drol. Bloods came back fine with my ALT's and AST's slightly out of the ref range, which doesn't mean doodoo. I even made sure a nurse practitioner agree with me.

    Anyways, I took 250mg UDCA from weeks 4-6 and everything turned out fine. Granted, 1) I didn't drink while on cycle, 2) I had a relatively clean diet, 3) I didn't overdose my PH's, and 4) well, my liver is just kingpin lol. I never worked him hard so it's not like my liver was weezing over the SD.

    The first set of bloods are the ones you want to look at which you'll see a little black pop-up box next to the results. Those bloods were taken 2 DAYS after I stopped the Trenazone and H-Drol. Here is the link: Discussion of Blood Results and effectiveness of Triptorelin in PCT, the liver values can be found in between the "Albumin, serum" and the "ALT" values...

    I'm tired of naysayers talking about steroid use and being uber harmful to our bodies. Honestly, the panzy Olympic Organiztion demonized it early on NOT beacuse they deemed them harmful BUT because they WORKED and created unfair competition. Granted, they could've left it alone for a few more years and then everyone would have been on them and no one would have been crying about being a loser. Regardless, it's a bunch of crap hearing people talk about the unknown/known dangers of steroid use. In fact, steroids are being implemented into the medical industry more and more, especially for women these days. There are very strict, well known protocol's for taking each and every type of steroid under the sun these days and yet some people think that it's stil super uber dangerous and harmful to the liver. HOGWASH. Take care of your body, monitor it, make adjustments, get huge, be stronger, be leaner, stop crying.
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    [QUOTE=bill86;3069254]im not sure i understand what youre trying to say then. i never said anything about down regulation of test, i was speaking specifically on liver toxicity and/or its other negative effects like on cholesterol levels.

    again, throwing out a fact like that about tylenol is taking everything out of context. tylenol causes so many problems because so many people use (or, misuse) it. if the exact same person in the exact same health were to take the dosage of tylenol thats recommended for aches and pains everyday for 6 weeks, i can guarantee that their liver values would not be as out of whack as taking the dosage of a methylated prohormone for 6 weeks without support supps thats recommended to make gains... but i guess what youre saying is that taking copious amounts of tylenol for long periods of time would be worse than taking a methylated prohormone for a short period of time while taking the right support supplements, to which i may not disagree with you, but again, its kind of a weak comparison.

    Well, didn't u just answer yourself with that statement? Jeeze, this isn't an argument about whether or not you can pop 50mg of SD/day for 6 weeks and still be healthy..no, it's about whether or not PH's can be just as safe as other aggressive medications not related to performance enhancement. My bloods prove that with supporting supplements (UDCA), you can manage just fine on some methylated compounds without worry. And heck, I didn't even take milk thistle..imagine if I did.
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    a) no... actually... my argument was not whether they can be as safe, its whether the general population is educated enough to use them safely, thus, whether or not they should be legal

    b) saying that ONE person (you) had bloods come back fine is PROOF that people in general can manage fine without worry on ph's is idiotic.
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    flawed logic...everywhere
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    Ok. Aceroni was cool and left a message on my profile so I'll add my official two cents since he clarified the toxicity thing.

    Bill86: Methylated steroids are not toxic, it is the metabolite of the methylated steroid that is toxic .

    Aceroni: The steroid is glucuronidated and it's that glucose 'analogue' that is toxic and causes build up of bile in the liver. eventually causing jaundice etc etc etc

    Since steroids interact with the nucleus in the cell, it is likely that this glucuronidated steroid is transported to the nucleus in the liver cell and represses the gene that regulates bile blow.

    The same effects occurr with estrogens as well. They both function in the nucleus and if they are both glucuronidated they are likely to cause the same issues.

    Steroid D-Ring Glucuronides: Characterization of a New Class of Cholestatic Agents
    1983, Vol. 14, No. 5 , Pages 1005-1019

    The pragmatic issue of the liver damage is discussed in this paper, which is almost 30 years old...
    In this case, the actual mechanism of bile build up in the liver is not relevant,
    it happens regardless.

    I'm not sure that mechanistic information would be terribly useful in this thread anyhow. no need to do anymore digging than I have to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    a) no... actually... my argument was not whether they can be as safe, its whether the general population is educated enough to use them safely, thus, whether or not they should be legal

    b) saying that ONE person (you) had bloods come back fine is PROOF that people in general can manage fine without worry on ph's is idiotic.
    Thanks, so now I'm an idiot. And all because I'm in the top 1% that used real scientific evidence to come to a conclusion rather than bro science and how I "feel" during and after my cycle. Ok.

    I just thought you guys would welcome some real scientific support for a more accurate conclusion about methylated PH's. Apparently I was wrong. I'll let you guys hash this one out w/o me.

    Good luck.
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    @fueled passion. I never said steroids were terrible for ya bro. I said oral prohormones are horrible for ya...
    Anyone I've ever talked to at the gym, whos clearly been lifting most of their lives, all say that if you are opting to do one or the other, take injectibles because they are much less harmful for you.

    But again I dont do either, and im not saying to do either...
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post
    @fueled passion. I never said steroids were terrible for ya bro. I said oral prohormones are horrible for ya...
    Anyone I've ever talked to at the gym, whos clearly been lifting most of their lives, all say that if you are opting to do one or the other, take injectibles because they are much less harmful for you.

    But again I dont do either, and im not saying to do either...
    I respect that statement and I believe you are right. I believe oral steroids/pro-hormones are far more consequential than oil and water based injections.

    It's even more pathetic to see that, between the two different routes one can take with steroid use, the one that is legal is by far and large the most harmful which I believe supports my claims about steroids not being banned because of harmfulness. It, like most things in government regulation, was deemed illegal due to social influences and demonization of the substances themselves. The fact is steroids got off to a bad start with terrible media and it will take pages upon pages of scientific evidence saying otherwise to undo the negative perception that it currently has.

    I meant no disrespect to others, BTW. I have a strong opinion about most things in life which tends to create heated tension. I apologize but despite my stubborn opinion, I never ever have an angry or hurtful heart about the conversation. I would forfeit the debate long before I damage a relationship with another person...even if I hardly know them.
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    professor: touche on that comment, lol

    passion: i never meant YOURE an idiot, i dont even know you, just that i feel that train of thought is... that is the exact equivalent of me giving you all 'real scientific support and proof' of the conclusion that if living an otherwise healthy lifestyle, you can smoke cigarettes your entire life without getting lung cancer just because my grandmother did so and lived to be 85 without getting lung cancer.


    but i agree, my whole argument is ONLY on the legality of steroids (i feel they should be illegal because of peoples lack of knowledge and lack of companies desire to properly inform customers on how to use them and their side effects), or more specifically prohormones, which are, in my opinion, more harmful to you than injectibles.

    when we hear of doctors prescribing steroids to patients for various reasons (such as wasting due to AIDS, etc), i'm assuming theyre test-based injectibles as opposed to oral, methylated prohormones (although i could be wrong).

    however, lets also remember that just because a doctor prescribes you something doesnt make its 'safe'. hell, i see multiple commercials everyday advertising class action lawsuits against companies who's prescription meds have caused life threatening side effects, not to mention all the meds that have eventually gotten pulled due to their sides. (but also... not saying steroids/ph's are JUST AS DANGEROUS OR MORE than any of these medications, lets remember that said medications arent legal without a doctor's prescription)
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    although, let me concede to the idea that there are many things that arent illegal because they arent regulated by the fda, and may pose serious threats; specifically, herbs. while kava kava isnt illegal, it has been associated with serious cases of liver toxicity (i think it was due to pieces of the stem being mixed into the formula, not quite sure though), but its not regulated by the fda.

    im guilty of this too... but we should also point out that just because something is 'natural' doesnt mean its safer than something 'unnatural'. again, in this situation, i feel like i must go back to the point that many people are unaware of the dangers of 'natural' remedies, and thus think its ok to take as much as they want because 'something natural cant possibly hurt me'
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    Right, people in this generation depend on the FDA to tell them what is safe and not safe, rather than doing their own homework, talking to experienced users, and understanding at least basic science and biology behind it all before making a decision. Furthermore, if the FDA has kept quiet about any particular substance, people assume its ok and safe. AM members know better because we tend to educate ourselves on such matters.

    This is another great reason why 1) government regulation has caused less individual initiative and 2) we let the government decide what is safe and unsafe by them deciding what is legal and not legal. Nevermind that often times the government makes such decisions not based on the general populations well-being. They base it on money, often times. Research what the senator of Oregon did to allow such crap to get put on the market via "supplementation"..
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    cant argue with the idea that money fuels the government, which a lot of times leads to certain people (or, in this case, supplements/supplement companies) getting more leeway.

    on the flipside, there are always those isntances of politicians wanting to get elected by 'looking out for their constituants well being' so they start crusades against all supplements, or just any performance enhancing supplement (anabolics, or otherwise) in general.... not sure if these rumors ive been hearing about bills to ban most athletic supplements are true or not, but it makes me wonder

    kind of reminds me when they banned caffeinated alcoholic drinks around here... the leaders had EVERYONE in a frenzy thinking people were going to die because they were consuming alcohol with caffeine. the only 'science' they provided is that caffeine may make you feel less drunk, so youll drink more, causing you to get alcohol poisoning. but the on-going rumor was that it can cause heart attacks mixing 'uppers and downers like that' which i thought was absurd..... theyll pull those energy-alcohol drinks, but are bars banned from mixing vodka and redbull? jagerbombs? hell... jack and cokes? no, of course not... but people wanted to get elected and/or make their constituents think they cared so much about us, that they just had to make these drinks illegal for our well-being (i, personally didnt drink them, i thought they were disgusting, but it was just an observation of mine, just to clarify any 'bias' i may have in this).
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    I believe ur on the right track in understanding how our congressman think as well as how our legal systems work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StakedCop View Post
    Growth hormone and insulin can not be found in any drug test.
    When we have not found this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    im not sure i understand what youre trying to say then. i never said anything about down regulation of test, i was speaking specifically on liver toxicity and/or its other negative effects like on cholesterol levels.

    again, throwing out a fact like that about tylenol is taking everything out of context. tylenol causes so many problems because so many people use (or, misuse) it. if the exact same person in the exact same health were to take the dosage of tylenol thats recommended for aches and pains everyday for 6 weeks, i can guarantee that their liver values would not be as out of whack as taking the dosage of a methylated prohormone for 6 weeks without support supps thats recommended to make gains... but i guess what youre saying is that taking copious amounts of tylenol for long periods of time would be worse than taking a methylated prohormone for a short period of time while taking the right support supplements, to which i may not disagree with you, but again, its kind of a weak comparison.

    i guess my stance is in agreement with bigdavid... it seems like youre trying to justify ph's being 'safe' or whatever by mentioning other substances that can also have adverse side effects.

    my whole point in this was that for the betterment of the general (uninformed) populations health, prohormones are better off banned. simply because most people dont know how to use them properly (sure, we do, but the fact that were subscribers to anabolicminds says something about our interests as compared to an average kid/guy wanting to get big so he walks into a complete nutrition or wherever and says 'give me something that will make me big'). im not anti-ph's/aas in the idea of using them, just the legality of them.

    the thing is, they require much more knowledge about how to use them properly than most any other legally available substance with toxic side effects.
    I agree with you.I have not also understood what they thinking?
  

  
 

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