Why do so many roid boys do natural shows?

Page 2 of 4 First 1234 Last
  1. Registered User
    hardgain3r's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    26
    Rep Power
    49

    I knew a guy that was locked up and when he came home dude was jacked ripped and I pretty sure he wasn't on roids

  2. Registered User
    aceroni's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,683
    Rep Power
    1098658

    So.. I compete naturally. My buddy takes prohormones, and thinks he should compete "naturally" too. He JUST took mdrol, and is planning on doing a show in april. Is that considered cheating?

    I for one, think if you're taking drugs (PH/AAS/ CLEN) up to a natural show, you're not only a cheater, but a COWARD.
  3. Registered User
    LiveToLift's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    13,340
    Rep Power
    9509235

    Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post
    So.. I compete naturally. My buddy takes prohormones, and thinks he should compete "naturally" too. He JUST took mdrol, and is planning on doing a show in april. Is that considered cheating?

    I for one, think if you're taking drugs (PH/AAS/ CLEN) up to a natural show, you're not only a cheater, but a COWARD.
    M-drol/superdrol is a pretty potent steroid which is not natural.....
    •   
       

  4. Registered User
    Torobestia's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    3,199
    Rep Power
    141049

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveToLift View Post
    M-drol/superdrol is a pretty potent steroid which is not natural.....
    What? I thought superdrol was an extract from the four-leafed Trifolium repens?
  5. Registered User
    Firmanator's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    123
    Rep Power
    135

    Quote Originally Posted by aceroni
    So.. I compete naturally. My buddy takes prohormones, and thinks he should compete "naturally" too. He JUST took mdrol, and is planning on doing a show in april. Is that considered cheating?

    I for one, think if you're taking drugs (PH/AAS/ CLEN) up to a natural show, you're not only a cheater, but a COWARD.
    Yes that is cheating! None of that is natural, tell him to man up and do npc. I'm probably doing an npc show next year and I'm totally natural...
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
  6. Registered User
    emekajokammor's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  263 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Disney Land
    Age
    28
    Posts
    563
    Rep Power
    2128

    Good thread here and nice signature Firmanator!
    Athletic Xtreme - Are you Xtreme enough?
    www.AthleticXtreme.com
    -Philippians 4:13-
  7. Registered User
    MidwestBeast's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    SEC
    Age
    29
    Posts
    10,035
    Rep Power
    3092029

    Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post
    So.. I compete naturally. My buddy takes prohormones, and thinks he should compete "naturally" too. He JUST took mdrol, and is planning on doing a show in april. Is that considered cheating?

    I for one, think if you're taking drugs (PH/AAS/ CLEN) up to a natural show, you're not only a cheater, but a COWARD.
    I couldn't agree with you more.
    Psalm 34:10 - "The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing."
    EvoMuse Rep | This is what we've been workin on... | Inspire to Evolve
  8. Registered User
    Firmanator's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    123
    Rep Power
    135

    Quote Originally Posted by emekajokammor
    Good thread here and nice signature Firmanator!
    Thank you!
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
  9. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    There are local junior shows that I was tempted to compete in a couple of years ago before I reached the age limit. The standard was very low and I was confident that I would have done well, even though I am not in bodybuilding shape.

    I have taken ephedrine pre workout on multiple occasions which is on the banned substances list. Although a friend of mine told me he thought it was no big deal I know it would have tainted my view should I have placed well or won because technically I did something that was against the rules.

    That is my own personal opinion. I know that people can say "yes but when you 'know' everyone else is on something, you are just levelling the field" maybe so, but I wouldn't have felt good winning if I was one of them either.
    PES Representative
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com
  10. Registered User
    aceroni's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,683
    Rep Power
    1098658

    exactly bdcc. But this kid is a fat boy baby back bitch. Hes 19 yrs old and has done more than 3 cycles of M-drol... And as far as other PH's hes cycled, more than I can count. His liver almost failed once he had to get some sort of vitamins to heal it back up..
    what about the "natural" test boosters, like Anabeta, IGF2, and free test?
    I was thinking about trying an IGF2/ft/litup stack. is that considered unnatural? Would i be "cheating" if i were to do a drugtested show after that? I figured since it was natural and doesnt need a PCT, then yah its ok. What do you guys think??!
  11. Registered User
    Firmanator's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    123
    Rep Power
    135

    In my eyes, only substances that are found naturally are natural and ok. Everything else is cheating. So basically only creatine, bcaas, and herbs/minerals/vitamins are ok.
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
  12. Registered User
    TheProfessor's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  236 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    181
    Rep Power
    433

    Testosterone, Insulin, growth hormone are all naturally occurring and EVERYWHERE...

    If you think it's cheating because they are synthesized then 99% of the things in dietary supplements should be cheating. Caffeine, Vit D/C/E/A Creatine... BCAA's...

    I'm not raggin I'm just saying based off of that argument there is a very fuzzy line.

    Most people equate 'unnatural' or 'cheating' with injections, and I feel this just isn't the case. If it were up to me I'd just inject everything. At least you know it's in you, whether it's a multi or insulin.

    If you equate hormones to unnatural this just simply isn't the case either. As Vitamin D is CLEARLY a hormone.

    I don't think it's terms of natural or unnatural anymore. It's just whether the organization you compete in has banned it. Because arguing about what is natural and what isn't is silly.
  13. Registered User
    Firmanator's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    123
    Rep Power
    135

    Feel free to give examples. But that's what's on most banned lists....everything naturally occurring is basically ok. I know there's test, tribulus, which is an herb, as I said.
    Caffeine, vit d, bcaas etc are all naturally occurring substances...
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
  14. Registered User
    TheProfessor's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  236 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    181
    Rep Power
    433

    Quote Originally Posted by Firmanator View Post
    Feel free to give examples. But that's what's on most banned lists....everything naturally occurring is basically ok. I know there's test, tribulus, which is an herb, as I said.
    This is my point. I have edited my post above to reflect that. It's not in terms of natural or unnatural, it's in terms of what is banned or not.

    If I gathered 10's of thousands of gallons of my own urine (don't challenge me), isolated the testosterone from it and injected that, wouldn't it be natural?
  15. Registered User
    TheProfessor's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  236 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    181
    Rep Power
    433

    Quote Originally Posted by Firmanator View Post
    Caffeine, vit d, bcaas etc are all naturally occurring substances...
    Right, testosterone is a naturally occurring substance too. Just as natural as the synthesized caffeine and BCAA's.
  16. Registered User
    Firmanator's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    123
    Rep Power
    135

    Yeah I know the line is fuzzy, kinda sucks. I was just giving general guidelines...of course what really matters is making sure what's on or off the banned list.
    If you really want to harvest test from your urine, yeah you'd probably pass the drug test
    Yeah I think the problem is when someone's test levels become unnaturally high. Not sure how they determine that
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
  17. Registered User
    TheProfessor's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  236 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    181
    Rep Power
    433

    I agree, like I said, I'm not arguing. It's just more of a semantic issue for me. There are bodbuilders/athletes that are tested for banned substances that some third party organization has deemed banned and bodybuilders/athletes NOT tested for banned substances that a third party organization has deemed banned.. Not natural and unnatural.

    If you discover and use a substance that is not on the banned compound list then you fall within the rules of the 'natural' organization. If they end up banning it after then it's an ex post facto situation anyway.

    This is why I feel untested organizations actually have a MORE level playing field. You aren't at any disadvantage.
    If anyone does particularly well in a tested organization everyone is just leery of them 'cheating' anyway. It gets really old.
  18. Registered User
    Firmanator's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    123
    Rep Power
    135

    Yup exactly, I hear ya on all that.
    The only time I'm really questioning someone is when they have an ab belly and massive gyno like a dude at the show I recently judged haha it looked ridiculous
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
  19. Registered User
    bill86's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    510
    Rep Power
    31795

    i just feel like anything thats going to boost your test or gh PAST natural limits is unnatural... test may be natural, but its unnatural to have levels at like 1500, you know?

    i guess im cynical because where im from i see guys that are SO small who have taken ph's/aas and im in such disbelief that when i see someone of a decent size im like 'oh, theyre DEFINITELY on it'..... that and so many local bb'ers have told me they arent on anything (especially when i was in my teens, i guess trying to be a good influence haha), then i find out theyre on all kinds of ****.

    but the REAL question is.... no offense to any amateur bb'er, you all look 10x better than me, but whether on it or not, amateur bb'ers just look SO small on stage after seeing pros... so WHAT exactly do these pro's put in their bodies to look THAT absurd? lol... i know genetics plays a part, but come on... i was talking to my friend the other day, these guys we see at the gym that are ENORMOUS look soooo small in their bb pics compared to the pros (i know you cant compare this to a pro, but when youre like 5'10 240-250 lean as hell, you look HUUUUUGEE in real life, but then smaller in pics)
  20. Registered User
    Firmanator's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  206 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    123
    Rep Power
    135

    I don't know any natural pros anywhere near 240 on stage lol. Even moody is around 205 I think onstage. If you're contest weight is over 200 you're big for a natty...
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
  21. Registered User
    fueledpassion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,421
    Rep Power
    645610

    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    i just feel like anything thats going to boost your test or gh PAST natural limits is unnatural... test may be natural, but its unnatural to have levels at like 1500, you know?

    i guess im cynical because where im from i see guys that are SO small who have taken ph's/aas and im in such disbelief that when i see someone of a decent size im like 'oh, theyre DEFINITELY on it'..... that and so many local bb'ers have told me they arent on anything (especially when i was in my teens, i guess trying to be a good influence haha), then i find out theyre on all kinds of ****.

    but the REAL question is.... no offense to any amateur bb'er, you all look 10x better than me, but whether on it or not, amateur bb'ers just look SO small on stage after seeing pros... so WHAT exactly do these pro's put in their bodies to look THAT absurd? lol... i know genetics plays a part, but come on... i was talking to my friend the other day, these guys we see at the gym that are ENORMOUS look soooo small in their bb pics compared to the pros (i know you cant compare this to a pro, but when youre like 5'10 240-250 lean as hell, you look HUUUUUGEE in real life, but then smaller in pics)
    The difference between the pros who do steroids and amatuers who do steroids is two things:

    1) is the strictness and dedication to the diet and training
    2) is the long term use of steroids (10+ years). U dont look like that overnight, or even overyear. It takes YEARS on AAS to get this way.

    Personally, I have the first difference down but not the second which explains my overall mass which is 150-160lbs. However I AM coasting at 7-8% BF which is plenty good to be on a solid start. In 5 years, unless something catastrophic occurs or my life circumstances drastically change, I'll be about 190lbs and 5-6% BF. Simply put, it takes years to produce those kinds of results.
  22. Registered User
    StackedCop's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    America
    Posts
    5,720
    Rep Power
    135803

    It's not just steroids. GH and insulin play a major role in pro building

  23. Registered User
    bill86's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    510
    Rep Power
    31795

    the 240 i spoke of was someone around my height, about 6'2.... nowhere near 'bodybuilding' physique, but could have cut about 15 lbs and been there.
  24. Registered User
    fueledpassion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,421
    Rep Power
    645610

    Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    I agree, like I said, I'm not arguing. It's just more of a semantic issue for me. There are bodbuilders/athletes that are tested for banned substances that some third party organization has deemed banned and bodybuilders/athletes NOT tested for banned substances that a third party organization has deemed banned.. Not natural and unnatural.

    If you discover and use a substance that is not on the banned compound list then you fall within the rules of the 'natural' organization. If they end up banning it after then it's an ex post facto situation anyway.


    This is why I feel untested organizations actually have a MORE level playing field. You aren't at any disadvantage.
    If anyone does particularly well in a tested organization everyone is just leery of them 'cheating' anyway. It gets really old.

    At the end of the day organizations ban whatever seems to work effectively and consistently across the board when it comes to hormones and even other supplements. And, it seems, that whatever works also seems to carry a number of side effects - some of which can be serious and harmful or even fatal if taken beyond measure. This is also why I think the FDA jumped on board in 1990 and ban steroid use period.

    All of this solidifies my points in previous posts (not related to this thread) about how steroid side-effects go hand-in-hand with side-effects. Not to change the subject or anything. I'm just correlated the fact that the banned-list, the FDA, and the bb'ing users all go after the same hormones and supplements and all stem from the same reason. For instance,

    Organizations ban substances - because they work effectively
    FDA bans substances - because those things that work typically have side-effects associated with them that are deemed unsafe
    BB'ing users use substances - again, because they work effectively

    Now the first and last ones I completely agree with but the FDA I DO NOT because those feds are a bunch of hypocrits. They ban steroids and everything else that works well for BB'ers yet the gov pockets billions in taxes for selling those cancer sticks to the public, which IMO are FAR more unsafe than a hormone could ever amount to.
  25. Registered User
    TheProfessor's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  236 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    181
    Rep Power
    433

    Don't forget (and don't let me get started on) the 'side effects' of booze. Let alone 'cancer sticks'.

    Alcohol has done and will do more damage than anything, ever.

    This thread has been put to rest.
  26. Registered User
    bill86's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    510
    Rep Power
    31795

    i despise the argument 'if alcohol is legal, then ____ should be too'

    sure, steroids CAN be used safely, but so can alcohol. further, we all know the negative effects alcohol can have... hell, we all take a class in high school that TEACHES us all the bad things it can lead to, but in most peoples mind, any 'supplement' they can buy at the store HAS to be safe, right? there are people ive heard of around here who have ended up COMPLETELY f ucked up from buying those damn stacks from complete nutrition (with what, like 4 methylated compounds in the stack?)

    just because SOME people know how to use something doesnt mean MOST know how to, especially teenagers that they push this **** on. the point is, if ph's/aas were legal, they would cause far more harm than good because while ive never seen a study on it, i would bet my last dollar that MOST people who take ph's literally have no idea what theyre doing and use them irresponsibly either a) too young, b) without the proper support, c) without proper pct, d) without knowledge of side effects (drinking on cycle, etc) or all of the above, all because they SIMPLY DONT KNOW or nowadays because the pro-steroid guys push this absurd agenda that its all a conspiracy and steroids arent actually bad for you.

    if i hear one more person quote that ****ing movie with 'well, more people end up in the hospital because of vitamins than steroids' im gonna punch them in the face..... and im not anti-steroids, id do them myself if i could, but im not going to sit here and say theyre safe when ive seen people i know personally suffer terrible effects because they bought something legal at complete nutrition (or wherever)
  27. Registered User
    bigdavid's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,272
    Rep Power
    19615

    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    i despise the argument 'if alcohol is legal, then ____ should be too'

    sure, steroids CAN be used safely, but so can alcohol. further, we all know the negative effects alcohol can have... hell, we all take a class in high school that TEACHES us all the bad things it can lead to, but in most peoples mind, any 'supplement' they can buy at the store HAS to be safe, right? there are people ive heard of around here who have ended up COMPLETELY f ucked up from buying those damn stacks from complete nutrition (with what, like 4 methylated compounds in the stack?)

    just because SOME people know how to use something doesnt mean MOST know how to, especially teenagers that they push this **** on. the point is, if ph's/aas were legal, they would cause far more harm than good because while ive never seen a study on it, i would bet my last dollar that MOST people who take ph's literally have no idea what theyre doing and use them irresponsibly either a) too young, b) without the proper support, c) without proper pct, d) without knowledge of side effects (drinking on cycle, etc) or all of the above, all because they SIMPLY DONT KNOW or nowadays because the pro-steroid guys push this absurd agenda that its all a conspiracy and steroids arent actually bad for you.

    if i hear one more person quote that ****ing movie with 'well, more people end up in the hospital because of vitamins than steroids' im gonna punch them in the face..... and im not anti-steroids, id do them myself if i could, but im not going to sit here and say theyre safe when ive seen people i know personally suffer terrible effects because they bought something legal at complete nutrition (or wherever)
    I agree with you on the frustration issue. However I believe when you replace your first statement with cigarettes, which can never be used safely...then I think that person has a valid argument. And it pisses me off too when supplement stores sell hormonal products to kids in high school and don't give a ****. I'm not disagreeing with you but why the hell are cigarettes legal? Based on your argument if we are taught in school about steroids they should be legal? Well I was in high school what 4 years ago....we were taught the dangers of steroids in my health class...
  28. Registered User
    TheProfessor's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  236 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    181
    Rep Power
    433

    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    i despise the argument 'if alcohol is legal, then ____ should be too'

    sure, steroids CAN be used safely, but so can alcohol. further, we all know the negative effects alcohol can have... hell, we all take a class in high school that TEACHES us all the bad things it can lead to, but in most peoples mind, any 'supplement' they can buy at the store HAS to be safe, right? there are people ive heard of around here who have ended up COMPLETELY f ucked up from buying those damn stacks from complete nutrition (with what, like 4 methylated compounds in the stack?)

    just because SOME people know how to use something doesnt mean MOST know how to, especially teenagers that they push this **** on. the point is, if ph's/aas were legal, they would cause far more harm than good because while ive never seen a study on it, i would bet my last dollar that MOST people who take ph's literally have no idea what theyre doing and use them irresponsibly either a) too young, b) without the proper support, c) without proper pct, d) without knowledge of side effects (drinking on cycle, etc) or all of the above, all because they SIMPLY DONT KNOW or nowadays because the pro-steroid guys push this absurd agenda that its all a conspiracy and steroids arent actually bad for you.

    if i hear one more person quote that ****ing movie with 'well, more people end up in the hospital because of vitamins than steroids' im gonna punch them in the face..... and im not anti-steroids, id do them myself if i could, but im not going to sit here and say theyre safe when ive seen people i know personally suffer terrible effects because they bought something legal at complete nutrition (or wherever)
    I'm not arguing with you and what you listed was not my argument. I did not say that these things should be legalized because alcohol is. Nor am I saying that androgen supplementation is healthy. I just have a personal issues with alcohol and feel like it's the most awful drug there is. That is all. I was not taking a legal or political stance on the issue just a personal one. It was more of an aside, as my post suggested.

    As far as cigarettes are concerned, I only give them respect because the United States would not be around if we didn't have tobacco. I do think it's gross and unhealthy, but it made the US what it was early on in the game.
  29. Registered User
    bill86's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    510
    Rep Power
    31795

    yeah, the argument about cigarettes is true, theres no 'safe' way to smoke or use tobacco. but i guess its just one of those things (not saying its right or wrong, just saying) like you mentioned where it generates so much money, making it illegal would be kind of impractical for our economy.

    bigdavid - yeah, they touched on them in my class, but im just saying that in general people dont know too much about them, especially with regard to actual use. everyone knows, in general, how to safely drink, but VERY FEW know how to safely use something like prohormones. i guess its a double edge sword, in some ways i think society demonizes steroids and makes blanket statements about their side effects, however, ive personally seen a lot of people suffer some nasty sides from ph's they bought and thought were safe because they were 'legal' (it seems like a lot of people think youre only on 'steroids' if youre using injectables, which they see as too hardcore and dangerous, while something oral and legal is a 'safe' alternative to them)
  30. Registered User
    kingdong's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  240 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    2,849
    Rep Power
    8204

    Adding to the natural debate. I think when you sign up for a natural show, you know that theres an expectation to fit into societies idea of a natural bodybuilder.

    IMO, a natural body builder should be someone who takes supplements to get healthy and fill in nutritional deficits, and the occasional herbal fat burner/preworkout. Things like creatine and protein both fall into the nutritional deficit filler category. Creatine/stimulants set the bar for how good something can work, with the exception of EFA's, carbs, and qualitie muti's and protein. Other than vitamin D, most popular BB hormones just work too good. Things like PEZ products fall into a weird category. No one really has an Erase dificiency, but at the same time, I would never ask someone on Erase or Shift to go compete with the roid guys, because you have to work really hard to notice anything on those products. Your average guy who goes to the gym for a few months here and a few months there probably would say the products didnt work, except for the libido effect from Erase.

    Test, GH and Insulin work way too good though. We all remember when we hit puberty and are muscle just naturaly got a little more plump. Takeing a high dose of test is just way more powerful than anything someone copeting in a natural show should be doing.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Why do so many roid boys do natural shows?
    By bmanmonkey in forum Natural Bodybuilding
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 01-27-2012, 05:48 AM
  2. s-roid + h-roid stack log
    By nyoung807 in forum Supplement Logs
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-25-2010, 11:07 PM
  3. S-ROID T-ROID HARDCORE FORMULATIONS
    By samva777 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 03-17-2010, 12:47 AM
  4. First Cycle: H-Roid and S-Roid (Log)
    By sandman24 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-08-2010, 10:09 AM
  5. natural plant oils grow breasts on young boys
    By poison in forum Supplements
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-29-2007, 06:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.