Why do so many roid boys do natural shows?

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    In my eyes, only substances that are found naturally are natural and ok. Everything else is cheating. So basically only creatine, bcaas, and herbs/minerals/vitamins are ok.
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)

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    Testosterone, Insulin, growth hormone are all naturally occurring and EVERYWHERE...

    If you think it's cheating because they are synthesized then 99% of the things in dietary supplements should be cheating. Caffeine, Vit D/C/E/A Creatine... BCAA's...

    I'm not raggin I'm just saying based off of that argument there is a very fuzzy line.

    Most people equate 'unnatural' or 'cheating' with injections, and I feel this just isn't the case. If it were up to me I'd just inject everything. At least you know it's in you, whether it's a multi or insulin.

    If you equate hormones to unnatural this just simply isn't the case either. As Vitamin D is CLEARLY a hormone.

    I don't think it's terms of natural or unnatural anymore. It's just whether the organization you compete in has banned it. Because arguing about what is natural and what isn't is silly.
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    Feel free to give examples. But that's what's on most banned lists....everything naturally occurring is basically ok. I know there's test, tribulus, which is an herb, as I said.
    Caffeine, vit d, bcaas etc are all naturally occurring substances...
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firmanator View Post
    Feel free to give examples. But that's what's on most banned lists....everything naturally occurring is basically ok. I know there's test, tribulus, which is an herb, as I said.
    This is my point. I have edited my post above to reflect that. It's not in terms of natural or unnatural, it's in terms of what is banned or not.

    If I gathered 10's of thousands of gallons of my own urine (don't challenge me), isolated the testosterone from it and injected that, wouldn't it be natural?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firmanator View Post
    Caffeine, vit d, bcaas etc are all naturally occurring substances...
    Right, testosterone is a naturally occurring substance too. Just as natural as the synthesized caffeine and BCAA's.
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    Yeah I know the line is fuzzy, kinda sucks. I was just giving general guidelines...of course what really matters is making sure what's on or off the banned list.
    If you really want to harvest test from your urine, yeah you'd probably pass the drug test
    Yeah I think the problem is when someone's test levels become unnaturally high. Not sure how they determine that
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
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    I agree, like I said, I'm not arguing. It's just more of a semantic issue for me. There are bodbuilders/athletes that are tested for banned substances that some third party organization has deemed banned and bodybuilders/athletes NOT tested for banned substances that a third party organization has deemed banned.. Not natural and unnatural.

    If you discover and use a substance that is not on the banned compound list then you fall within the rules of the 'natural' organization. If they end up banning it after then it's an ex post facto situation anyway.

    This is why I feel untested organizations actually have a MORE level playing field. You aren't at any disadvantage.
    If anyone does particularly well in a tested organization everyone is just leery of them 'cheating' anyway. It gets really old.
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    Yup exactly, I hear ya on all that.
    The only time I'm really questioning someone is when they have an ab belly and massive gyno like a dude at the show I recently judged haha it looked ridiculous
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
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    i just feel like anything thats going to boost your test or gh PAST natural limits is unnatural... test may be natural, but its unnatural to have levels at like 1500, you know?

    i guess im cynical because where im from i see guys that are SO small who have taken ph's/aas and im in such disbelief that when i see someone of a decent size im like 'oh, theyre DEFINITELY on it'..... that and so many local bb'ers have told me they arent on anything (especially when i was in my teens, i guess trying to be a good influence haha), then i find out theyre on all kinds of ****.

    but the REAL question is.... no offense to any amateur bb'er, you all look 10x better than me, but whether on it or not, amateur bb'ers just look SO small on stage after seeing pros... so WHAT exactly do these pro's put in their bodies to look THAT absurd? lol... i know genetics plays a part, but come on... i was talking to my friend the other day, these guys we see at the gym that are ENORMOUS look soooo small in their bb pics compared to the pros (i know you cant compare this to a pro, but when youre like 5'10 240-250 lean as hell, you look HUUUUUGEE in real life, but then smaller in pics)
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    I don't know any natural pros anywhere near 240 on stage lol. Even moody is around 205 I think onstage. If you're contest weight is over 200 you're big for a natty...
    My goal as a natural bodybuilder is to improve constantly, and win my pro card, while making an increasing amount of people doubt that I'm natural ;)
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    i just feel like anything thats going to boost your test or gh PAST natural limits is unnatural... test may be natural, but its unnatural to have levels at like 1500, you know?

    i guess im cynical because where im from i see guys that are SO small who have taken ph's/aas and im in such disbelief that when i see someone of a decent size im like 'oh, theyre DEFINITELY on it'..... that and so many local bb'ers have told me they arent on anything (especially when i was in my teens, i guess trying to be a good influence haha), then i find out theyre on all kinds of ****.

    but the REAL question is.... no offense to any amateur bb'er, you all look 10x better than me, but whether on it or not, amateur bb'ers just look SO small on stage after seeing pros... so WHAT exactly do these pro's put in their bodies to look THAT absurd? lol... i know genetics plays a part, but come on... i was talking to my friend the other day, these guys we see at the gym that are ENORMOUS look soooo small in their bb pics compared to the pros (i know you cant compare this to a pro, but when youre like 5'10 240-250 lean as hell, you look HUUUUUGEE in real life, but then smaller in pics)
    The difference between the pros who do steroids and amatuers who do steroids is two things:

    1) is the strictness and dedication to the diet and training
    2) is the long term use of steroids (10+ years). U dont look like that overnight, or even overyear. It takes YEARS on AAS to get this way.

    Personally, I have the first difference down but not the second which explains my overall mass which is 150-160lbs. However I AM coasting at 7-8% BF which is plenty good to be on a solid start. In 5 years, unless something catastrophic occurs or my life circumstances drastically change, I'll be about 190lbs and 5-6% BF. Simply put, it takes years to produce those kinds of results.
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    It's not just steroids. GH and insulin play a major role in pro building

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    the 240 i spoke of was someone around my height, about 6'2.... nowhere near 'bodybuilding' physique, but could have cut about 15 lbs and been there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    I agree, like I said, I'm not arguing. It's just more of a semantic issue for me. There are bodbuilders/athletes that are tested for banned substances that some third party organization has deemed banned and bodybuilders/athletes NOT tested for banned substances that a third party organization has deemed banned.. Not natural and unnatural.

    If you discover and use a substance that is not on the banned compound list then you fall within the rules of the 'natural' organization. If they end up banning it after then it's an ex post facto situation anyway.


    This is why I feel untested organizations actually have a MORE level playing field. You aren't at any disadvantage.
    If anyone does particularly well in a tested organization everyone is just leery of them 'cheating' anyway. It gets really old.

    At the end of the day organizations ban whatever seems to work effectively and consistently across the board when it comes to hormones and even other supplements. And, it seems, that whatever works also seems to carry a number of side effects - some of which can be serious and harmful or even fatal if taken beyond measure. This is also why I think the FDA jumped on board in 1990 and ban steroid use period.

    All of this solidifies my points in previous posts (not related to this thread) about how steroid side-effects go hand-in-hand with side-effects. Not to change the subject or anything. I'm just correlated the fact that the banned-list, the FDA, and the bb'ing users all go after the same hormones and supplements and all stem from the same reason. For instance,

    Organizations ban substances - because they work effectively
    FDA bans substances - because those things that work typically have side-effects associated with them that are deemed unsafe
    BB'ing users use substances - again, because they work effectively

    Now the first and last ones I completely agree with but the FDA I DO NOT because those feds are a bunch of hypocrits. They ban steroids and everything else that works well for BB'ers yet the gov pockets billions in taxes for selling those cancer sticks to the public, which IMO are FAR more unsafe than a hormone could ever amount to.
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    Don't forget (and don't let me get started on) the 'side effects' of booze. Let alone 'cancer sticks'.

    Alcohol has done and will do more damage than anything, ever.

    This thread has been put to rest.
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    i despise the argument 'if alcohol is legal, then ____ should be too'

    sure, steroids CAN be used safely, but so can alcohol. further, we all know the negative effects alcohol can have... hell, we all take a class in high school that TEACHES us all the bad things it can lead to, but in most peoples mind, any 'supplement' they can buy at the store HAS to be safe, right? there are people ive heard of around here who have ended up COMPLETELY f ucked up from buying those damn stacks from complete nutrition (with what, like 4 methylated compounds in the stack?)

    just because SOME people know how to use something doesnt mean MOST know how to, especially teenagers that they push this **** on. the point is, if ph's/aas were legal, they would cause far more harm than good because while ive never seen a study on it, i would bet my last dollar that MOST people who take ph's literally have no idea what theyre doing and use them irresponsibly either a) too young, b) without the proper support, c) without proper pct, d) without knowledge of side effects (drinking on cycle, etc) or all of the above, all because they SIMPLY DONT KNOW or nowadays because the pro-steroid guys push this absurd agenda that its all a conspiracy and steroids arent actually bad for you.

    if i hear one more person quote that ****ing movie with 'well, more people end up in the hospital because of vitamins than steroids' im gonna punch them in the face..... and im not anti-steroids, id do them myself if i could, but im not going to sit here and say theyre safe when ive seen people i know personally suffer terrible effects because they bought something legal at complete nutrition (or wherever)
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    i despise the argument 'if alcohol is legal, then ____ should be too'

    sure, steroids CAN be used safely, but so can alcohol. further, we all know the negative effects alcohol can have... hell, we all take a class in high school that TEACHES us all the bad things it can lead to, but in most peoples mind, any 'supplement' they can buy at the store HAS to be safe, right? there are people ive heard of around here who have ended up COMPLETELY f ucked up from buying those damn stacks from complete nutrition (with what, like 4 methylated compounds in the stack?)

    just because SOME people know how to use something doesnt mean MOST know how to, especially teenagers that they push this **** on. the point is, if ph's/aas were legal, they would cause far more harm than good because while ive never seen a study on it, i would bet my last dollar that MOST people who take ph's literally have no idea what theyre doing and use them irresponsibly either a) too young, b) without the proper support, c) without proper pct, d) without knowledge of side effects (drinking on cycle, etc) or all of the above, all because they SIMPLY DONT KNOW or nowadays because the pro-steroid guys push this absurd agenda that its all a conspiracy and steroids arent actually bad for you.

    if i hear one more person quote that ****ing movie with 'well, more people end up in the hospital because of vitamins than steroids' im gonna punch them in the face..... and im not anti-steroids, id do them myself if i could, but im not going to sit here and say theyre safe when ive seen people i know personally suffer terrible effects because they bought something legal at complete nutrition (or wherever)
    I agree with you on the frustration issue. However I believe when you replace your first statement with cigarettes, which can never be used safely...then I think that person has a valid argument. And it pisses me off too when supplement stores sell hormonal products to kids in high school and don't give a ****. I'm not disagreeing with you but why the hell are cigarettes legal? Based on your argument if we are taught in school about steroids they should be legal? Well I was in high school what 4 years ago....we were taught the dangers of steroids in my health class...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    i despise the argument 'if alcohol is legal, then ____ should be too'

    sure, steroids CAN be used safely, but so can alcohol. further, we all know the negative effects alcohol can have... hell, we all take a class in high school that TEACHES us all the bad things it can lead to, but in most peoples mind, any 'supplement' they can buy at the store HAS to be safe, right? there are people ive heard of around here who have ended up COMPLETELY f ucked up from buying those damn stacks from complete nutrition (with what, like 4 methylated compounds in the stack?)

    just because SOME people know how to use something doesnt mean MOST know how to, especially teenagers that they push this **** on. the point is, if ph's/aas were legal, they would cause far more harm than good because while ive never seen a study on it, i would bet my last dollar that MOST people who take ph's literally have no idea what theyre doing and use them irresponsibly either a) too young, b) without the proper support, c) without proper pct, d) without knowledge of side effects (drinking on cycle, etc) or all of the above, all because they SIMPLY DONT KNOW or nowadays because the pro-steroid guys push this absurd agenda that its all a conspiracy and steroids arent actually bad for you.

    if i hear one more person quote that ****ing movie with 'well, more people end up in the hospital because of vitamins than steroids' im gonna punch them in the face..... and im not anti-steroids, id do them myself if i could, but im not going to sit here and say theyre safe when ive seen people i know personally suffer terrible effects because they bought something legal at complete nutrition (or wherever)
    I'm not arguing with you and what you listed was not my argument. I did not say that these things should be legalized because alcohol is. Nor am I saying that androgen supplementation is healthy. I just have a personal issues with alcohol and feel like it's the most awful drug there is. That is all. I was not taking a legal or political stance on the issue just a personal one. It was more of an aside, as my post suggested.

    As far as cigarettes are concerned, I only give them respect because the United States would not be around if we didn't have tobacco. I do think it's gross and unhealthy, but it made the US what it was early on in the game.
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    yeah, the argument about cigarettes is true, theres no 'safe' way to smoke or use tobacco. but i guess its just one of those things (not saying its right or wrong, just saying) like you mentioned where it generates so much money, making it illegal would be kind of impractical for our economy.

    bigdavid - yeah, they touched on them in my class, but im just saying that in general people dont know too much about them, especially with regard to actual use. everyone knows, in general, how to safely drink, but VERY FEW know how to safely use something like prohormones. i guess its a double edge sword, in some ways i think society demonizes steroids and makes blanket statements about their side effects, however, ive personally seen a lot of people suffer some nasty sides from ph's they bought and thought were safe because they were 'legal' (it seems like a lot of people think youre only on 'steroids' if youre using injectables, which they see as too hardcore and dangerous, while something oral and legal is a 'safe' alternative to them)
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    Adding to the natural debate. I think when you sign up for a natural show, you know that theres an expectation to fit into societies idea of a natural bodybuilder.

    IMO, a natural body builder should be someone who takes supplements to get healthy and fill in nutritional deficits, and the occasional herbal fat burner/preworkout. Things like creatine and protein both fall into the nutritional deficit filler category. Creatine/stimulants set the bar for how good something can work, with the exception of EFA's, carbs, and qualitie muti's and protein. Other than vitamin D, most popular BB hormones just work too good. Things like PEZ products fall into a weird category. No one really has an Erase dificiency, but at the same time, I would never ask someone on Erase or Shift to go compete with the roid guys, because you have to work really hard to notice anything on those products. Your average guy who goes to the gym for a few months here and a few months there probably would say the products didnt work, except for the libido effect from Erase.

    Test, GH and Insulin work way too good though. We all remember when we hit puberty and are muscle just naturaly got a little more plump. Takeing a high dose of test is just way more powerful than anything someone copeting in a natural show should be doing.
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    @ bill
    do you have any links to show PH are toxic?
    I dont do them, but i KNOW they are toxic- I'm not retarted. But i wanted a link of actual info to send to a friend of mine, who thinks they're OK just b/c they are legal.
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    is that supposed to be sarcastic or a real comment?
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    Nah dude its real. Im serious. I dont take PH. My buddy does. Hes just plain old stupid, and doesnt know they're bad for you. I just was wondering if you knew any SPECIFIC links, that I could send to him.
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    not off the top of my head, but im sure you could find some if you google.... i prefer peoples blood work reports mid-cycle though, and you can find a lot of those around here if you dig deep enough.
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    What does toxic mean?

    If you are talking about hepatoxicity, I'd rather do controlled cycles of a PH for 6-8 weeks at a time than take tylenol every day for aches and pains...
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    Dude. I NEVER suggested taking tylenol or asprin ever day. And youre stupid if you compare the dmg from that to the dmg caused by PH. Asprin doesnt suppress your bodys normal fxn of creating tst
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    And if you have a headache or aches and pains every day you need to go to the damn chiropractor. nobody should feel like that. you're not 80 yrs old.
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    and why would that be?

    tylenol poses no threat to a healthy individual, taking a normal dosage, who isnt drinking because their body is able to detoxify the metabolite which actually causes the liver problems in tylenol. its not actually the acetaminophen thats toxic, its the metabolite produced in the liver, which is detoxified in most circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post
    Dude. I NEVER suggested taking tylenol or asprin ever day. And youre stupid if you compare the dmg from that to the dmg caused by PH. Asprin doesnt suppress your bodys normal fxn of creating tst
    Why are you being so volatile? Where is the need to call me stupid? I was asking what you meant by toxic? And you still didn't answer.

    Tylenol is not aspirin. I never said aspirin anywhere.
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    Double post
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill86 View Post
    and why would that be?

    tylenol poses no threat to a healthy individual, taking a normal dosage, who isnt drinking because their body is able to detoxify the metabolite which actually causes the liver problems in tylenol. its not actually the acetaminophen thats toxic, its the metabolite produced in the liver, which is detoxified in most circumstances.
    I understand the pharmacology of tylenol, trust me. It was more in the context of long term habitual usage.
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    well then, yeah, but thats kind of comparing apples to oranges if you're not going to compare them on the same basis.
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    I was just asking what this guy meant by toxic. He never defined it. I don't consider down regulation of testosterone production a toxic effect. It's a negative feedback loop, it has nothing to do with a chemical being a poison.

    And just for 'bar trivia' tylenol causes more liver failure related deaths than all other drugs combined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProfessor View Post
    I was just asking what this guy meant by toxic. He never defined it. I don't consider down regulation of testosterone production a toxic effect. It's a negative feedback loop, it has nothing to do with a chemical being a poison.

    And just for 'bar trivia' tylenol causes more liver failure related deaths than all other drugs combined.
    That is flawed logic. Giving an example of a drug that is more liver toxic long term does not change the fact that oral methylated prohormones are liver toxic or justify its use. It is not like someone has the choice to either run a PH cycle or go on tylenol for the rest of their life. And the tylenol usage is for quality of life improvements, not for performance enhancement benefits.
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    I don't understand all the hate.

    The reason for drug usage is not relevant. Nor am I justifying the use. I feel like people are putting words in my mouth?

    The whole statement was said in jest because he never defined his term 'toxic' or 'bad for you' and therefore it was tough to respond to his post.

    I consider performance enhancement a quality of life improvement :-p
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    I am not hating on you just seemed like you were justifying PH usage based on another drug being toxic...I hate logic like that pet peeve of mine lol.
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    I'm not justifying anything .

    I was literally just trying to understand what he was saying so I can be productive in the thread.

    But, on a personal note, I'd rather use my glutathione for other biochemistry than to eat up ****ty OTC drug metabolites. That's a waste of good glutathione!
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    Sounds like there might be a whey to help you with that problem
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    agreed.

    I suppose I should have abandoned my legitimate urge to help when 'retarded' was spelled 'retarted' while simultaneously being called stupid by the same person.

    Abandoning....... now.
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    @ the proffessor. "
    I apologize brother I misread everything. By toxic I just meant the LIVER damage.
    I mean cmon, we all know that oral PH's are actually worse than injectibles because you are making the liver work really hard to break down that pill...
    Idk the exact science behind it, idk much about them, but I do know that above statement. (I dont take either PH or real steroids, i'm a natty bb)
    But I do know alot of people that have been bodybuilding for quite some time and have taken real injectibles and all have told me that the orals are much worse for you!
  

  
 

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