Squats and deadlifts - ESSENTIAL? Aid in debate

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    Squats and deadlifts - ESSENTIAL? Aid in debate


    Hello all, first time poster here. Basically I'm having a debate on another forum about how essential squats and deadlifts are on gaining, and I've been challenged to create a thread here questioning my points.

    First, let me clarify thed efinition of the word ESSENTIAL for anyone who doesn't know (such as one chap in the other debate). Essential means completely necessary. Not "very helpful," not "almost necessary," but COMPLETELY necessary.

    Now, let me clarify the debate before asking for opinions. One of the guys in this debate is saying that squats and deads are ESSENTIAL to building muscle. My personal position is that they are incredibly useful in doing so and almost everybody should have them in their routine, but are NOT essential any more than any other exercise is completely necessary for building muscle.

    I have given several examples to prove my point. One such eample was Dorian Yates, 6 time Olympia winner who at 5'10" stood on stage at an unbelievably lean and dry 260+lbs. Apparently this example is somehow invalid because he's an "old" bodybuilder, as if this somehow invalidates his insane size that he built without squats and deadlifts. I also used examples of paraplegic bodybuilders (who you can find on Google) who can't even move their legs yet have still built huge levels of mass without squatting and deadlifting. I even used myself as an example who continued to gain well with a fractured ankle for more than 6 months without training my legs.

    Another thing I mentioned is that while squats and deads are great for most people, for some people because of their height, limb length, leverages, differing muscles dominances, etc. that squats and deads might be better replaced with other exercises.

    So basically, my question is this. Bearing in mind the examples of people who have built incredible mass without squatting and deadlifting, who is right? To me it's a no-brainer. They're incredibly useful and most people should be doing them but are not ESSENTIAL (i.e. totally necessary and impossible to get by without), otherwise there would be no paraplegic bodybuilders at all and Dorian Yates never would've won an Olympia. Unfortunately this other chap lacks common sense and openmindedness.

    So, please, thoughts?

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    Here you go. Nuff said.
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    Or you could just look like this
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    nice first post btw.
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    Hey, I squat and deadlift because they're amazing exercises, I'm not saying they're not, nor am I saying that most people wouldn't be better off doing them. What I AM saying is that it's possible to build an amazing physique without them and they're not essential, as demonstrated by the examples I provided, and I'm also saying that a select few people would be better off not doing them at certain points in their training lives due to things like leverages, weak lower back, etc.

    If you, like most people, will get the results you're after doing them, then do them. I'm just saying it's possible to get results without them and a minority of people will be better off not doing them. It's stupid to think absolutely everybody is in the same boat and these two exercises are magic.
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    Thank you everyone,

    I wasn't sure what else to say to tell this guy Squats And Deadlifts CANNOT be replaced by leg press if you expect to still have the same rate of muscle growth.
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    Nobody said anything about the same rate, did they? You said ESSENTIAL. Perhaps you need to look that word up in the dictionary. It means NECESSARY, i.e. you said growth would be IMPOSSIBLE without them, which is clearly not the case (and this is especially true of taller lifters).
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    And again, perhaps you can explain Dorian Yates' incredible development without squats and deads? Was it black magic perhaps? What about paraplegic bodybuilders? Surely they have employed wizardry.
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    You need to draw a distinction between helpful/positive/useful and ESSENTIAL. There is a difference.

    I notice you also keep failing to address how paraplegic bodybuilders have grown without squatting and deading. That issue won't go away just because you won't respond to it.
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    I SAID GROWTH WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE??

    are you ****ing retarded dude? can you even read??

    i said it increases your rate of growth! which is true.. ur an idiot

    now shut the hell up with all ur retarded arguments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    You need to draw a distinction between helpful/positive/useful and ESSENTIAL. There is a difference.

    I notice you also keep failing to address how paraplegic bodybuilders have grown without squatting and deading. That issue won't go away just because you won't respond to it.
    YOU CAN GROW WITHOUT SQUATS!! YES ITS TRUE, WOW YOUR SO SMART!! happy?? jeez us christ man

    I'M SAYING IF YOU DO!! SQUAT THAT YOU GROW FASTER. IN ALL CASES!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    I SAID GROWTH WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE??

    are you ****ing retarded dude? can you even read??

    i said it increases your rate of growth! which is true.. ur an idiot

    now shut the hell up with all ur retarded arguments.
    What you said was (and this is a direct quotation) "there is really nothing you can say to make me think that one of those exercises isn't essential if you're taking your workout seriously" and you also said "those two exercises are written in stone." This is incorrect. There are people who take working out seriously who can't/don't squat and/or deadlift either because they can't or it's not wise for them to do so. I have provided examples of this. If someone is 6'5" with a very weak lower back and very long legs there are smarter exercise choices than back squats and deads. And again, fairly certain to win Mr Olympia 6 times you have to take working out quite seriously, yet Dorian didn't squat or dead. How do you explain that?

    Perhaps it's you who needs reading lessons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    YOU CAN GROW WITHOUT SQUATS!! YES ITS TRUE, WOW YOUR SO SMART!! happy?? jeez us christ man

    I'M SAYING IF YOU DO!! SQUAT THAT YOU GROW FASTER. IN ALL CASES!
    Except this isn't true in all cases. People with very long legs, lower back weaknesses or injuries, or even just people for whom squatting doesn't hit 'the sweet spot.'

    Do you really think a 6 time Olympia winner would drop squats if they were doing what he wanted them to? Not everyone is exactly the same, as hard as that may be for you to believe.
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    Wow, strong first thread.

    FACT: Squats and Deadlifts stimulate the body to produce and release the most amount of testosterone compared to any other exercise.

    FACT: Testosterone facilitates bodily changes rapidly, providing anti-catabolism and require gym aggression.

    FACT: You can grow without them, but they will increase the rate of protein turnover.

    MYTH: You know what you are talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    What you said was (and this is a direct quotation) "there is really nothing you can say to make me think that one of those exercises isn't essential if you're taking your workout seriously" and you also said "those two exercises are written in stone." This is incorrect. There are people who take working out seriously who can't/don't squat and/or deadlift either because they can't or it's not wise for them to do so. I have provided examples of this. If someone is 6'5" with a very weak lower back and very long legs there are smarter exercise choices than back squats and deads. And again, fairly certain to win Mr Olympia 6 times you have to take working out quite seriously, yet Dorian didn't squat or dead. How do you explain that?

    Perhaps it's you who needs reading lessons.
    if you have a weak lower back, you should be deadlifting.. ta da.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Wow, strong first thread.

    FACT: Squats and Deadlifts stimulate the body to produce and release the most amount of testosterone compared to any other exercise.

    FACT: Testosterone facilitates bodily changes rapidly, providing anti-catabolism and require gym aggression.

    FACT: You can grow without them, but they will increase the rate of protein turnover.

    MYTH: You know what you are talking about.
    HAHAH thank you!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Wow, strong first thread.

    FACT: Squats and Deadlifts stimulate the body to produce and release the most amount of testosterone compared to any other exercise.

    FACT: Testosterone facilitates bodily changes rapidly, providing anti-catabolism and require gym aggression.

    FACT: You can grow without them, but they will increase the rate of protein turnover.

    MYTH: You know what you are talking about.

    So considering I agree with all of those facts, what exactly am I saying that's wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    So considering I agree with all of those facts, what exactly am I saying that's wrong?
    that besides the extreme cases of people who cant use their legs, squats and deadlifts should MOST DEFINATELY be in a routine.

    leg press won't get you to your potential as fast as squats can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    that besides the extreme cases of people who cant use their legs, squats and deadlifts should MOST DEFINATELY be in a routine.

    leg press won't get you to your potential as fast as squats can.
    Except that's not what I'm saying. Not mostly, anyway. I would make exceptions for injuries and certain different body structures where I would use alternative forms of squats and deadlifts, but for everybody else I agree, I'm just saying that for a small minority of people back squats and conventional deadlifts might not be ideal and that you can still develop extremely well without those exercises, yet somehow you've read that as "nobody at all should squat and deadlift," and I have no idea why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Except that's not what I'm saying. Not mostly, anyway. I would make exceptions for injuries and certain different body structures where I would use alternative forms of squats and deadlifts, but for everybody else I agree, I'm just saying that for a small minority of people back squats and conventional deadlifts might not be ideal and that you can still develop extremely well without those exercises, yet somehow you've read that as "nobody at all should squat and deadlift," and I have no idea why.
    you've changed ur argument so many times i can't keep up..

    if you can use your legs.. squat or deadlift if you wanna maximize growth potential. thats all. thank you.
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    But fine, let me give you another example. Someone 6'6", proportionately long legs and short arms, poor hip and ankle flexibility and a weak lower back, all of which combine to mean that the person can't back squat to parallel or do deadlifts off the floor without rounding their back.... in your mind they should still back squat and conventional deadlift should they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    you've changed ur argument so many times i can't keep up..

    if you can use your legs.. squat or deadlift if you wanna maximize growth potential. thats all. thank you.
    Please explain what I have changed it from and what I have changed it to, and support with quotations. Otherwise you're speaking out of your arse.
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    And just to clarify, I'm talking about back squats and conventional deadlifts here, not any squat or deadlift variation.
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    You also seem to think I'm using extreme examples to justify my point. Don't you get it? Extreme examples ARE my point. I completely agree that everyone who can back squat and conventional deadlift should, and those who aren't built for those lifts should find squat and deadlift variations that suit them, and the vast majority of people are going to be able to find some form of squat or deadlift which will vastly benefit them. I'm just saying there are ALWAYS a few exceptions to the rule, which is what you don't seem willing to accept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Please explain what I have changed it from and what I have changed it to, and support with quotations. Otherwise you're speaking out of your arse.
    ... it was us that were arguing on the other forum.. we both know what we said.. i'm not proving myself here anymore cuz ur an idiot.

    someone else pick this up, he's been draining me on all these extreme cases for 2 days er suttin.

    but last thing, have you ever seen a hexbar deadlift?? those work GREAT for all my very tall friends. now good day.


    MY LAST POST.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    but last thing, have you ever seen a hexbar deadlift?? those work GREAT for all my very tall friends. now good day.


    MY LAST POST.
    Gosh, hex bar deadlifts, wow, no, never heard of them.

    Oh wait, yes I have. THEY ARE NOT CONVENTIONAL BARBELL DEADLIFTS WHICH IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Gosh, hex bar deadlifts, wow, no, never heard of them.

    Oh wait, yes I have. THEY ARE NOT CONVENTIONAL BARBELL DEADLIFTS WHICH IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.
    another detail you made up when you starting losing the argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    another detail you made up when you starting losing the argument.
    I didn't make up anything. The thread was about ass to grass back squats, then you mentioned deadlifts. Had you preceded that with "some form of" then it would be a different story, although even then there are exceptions to the rule.

    Instead you chose to talk in absolutes, as if everyone is exactly the same.

    And again, if you think I've changed my argument then please prove how by quoting me instead of talking out of your arse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    I didn't make up anything. The thread was about ass to grass back squats, then you mentioned deadlifts. Had you preceded that with "some form of" then it would be a different story, although even then there are exceptions to the rule.

    Instead you chose to talk in absolutes, as if everyone is exactly the same.

    And again, if you think I've changed my argument then please prove how by quoting me instead of talking out of your arse.
    last post. i'm gettin off after this.

    didn't say anyone was the same, i stated squats and deadlifts are essential to a workout that wants to maximize growth potential.. i am right.

    i'm not gunna go copy and paste, i'm not proving myself to anyone here, you know what was said, and your still wrong now, even with all your little revisions

    me and all my tall friends are gunna continue to squat and deadlift and get huge.. you can preach whatever you'd like, but i wont stop believing in the squat or deadlift.

    done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    last post. i'm gettin off after this.

    didn't say anyone was the same, i stated squats and deadlifts are essential to a workout that wants to maximize growth potential.. i am right.

    i'm not gunna go copy and paste, i'm not proving myself to anyone here, you know what was said, and your still wrong now, even with all your little revisions

    me and all my tall friends are gunna continue to squat and deadlift and get huge.. you can preach whatever you'd like, but i wont stop believing in the squat or deadlift.

    done.
    In other words you can't provide evidence of me saying things I haven't said.

    Nobody suggested you stop squatting and deadlifting. Nobody even said that squatting and deadlifting won't be extremely helpful in maximising growth potential, that's just something for whatever reason you think I said. What I ACTUALLY said is that for a minority of people back squats and conventional deadlifts aren't the best exercise choices, and for an even smaller minority (very small minority) such as those with injuries or extremely disproportionate limb lengths or muscles dominances, no squats or deads would be best, and I also said they're not essential to grow, since they're not.

    Where you got "you shouldn't squat and deadlift" from I really have no idea since I've said repeatedly now that if you can, you should.
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    If you can't squat to parallel you should start with a tall box squat, extra posterior-chain work, core work, flexibility/mobility and continue with it until you can hit at least parallel. If your low back isn't "strong enough" to squat work your damn core. Then leg press/hack squat to your little hearts content after you squat. If you "can't" deadlift conventional then sumo deadlift or hex-bar deadlift. But deadlift. Maybe you start with partials and continue to progress to full range as you flexibility, mobility, and core strength get up to par. But if you have legs you should be doing them.
    ONLY WAY?? No, but incredibly stupid not to. Like trying to get big biceps when you can't even do pullups. Or triceps but I don't do dips.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    But fine, let me give you another example. Someone 6'6", proportionately long legs and short arms, poor hip and ankle flexibility and a weak lower back, all of which combine to mean that the person can't back squat to parallel or do deadlifts off the floor without rounding their back.... in your mind they should still back squat and conventional deadlift should they?

    Really? What about a Hobbit crossed with a duck-Billed Platypus, who does not have any arms and strangely webbed feet fixed at a 87.668 degree angle? Surely that would fit the criteria.

    You are not Socrates in Plato's Euthyphro my friend, and the squat/dead lift dynamic is not a version of DCM morality. You have made several adaptations even from the first post on this forum. Give it up. Seriously. Physically deranged persons as well as those with the misfortune to be without lower extremities, cannot do said maneuvers. Got it. Drop it. Not to be a **** but you did make this your first thread broham.
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    lol, drama.

    funny stuff kids.

    I was genetically screwed as far as legs go. But you know what, I gots some. Finally.

    My legs slash twigs came from doing squats and deads.........You can see my fat azz and twigs in my Glycobol Log in my sig.

    Not from the leg press, leg extensions, quad curls, or anything else..........F-in squats and deads until i get purple and dizzy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    ONLY WAY?? No, but incredibly stupid not to.
    Thank you. The poster in question was asserting that it was the ONLY way.
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    i find it very hard to believe that dorian never squatted or deadlifted. mabye later on in his carreer he quit doing them but i cant imagine it wasnt a part of his training at some point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    i find it very hard to believe that dorian never squatted or deadlifted. mabye later on in his carreer he quit doing them but i cant imagine it wasnt a part of his training at some point.
    http://www.dorianyates.net/dorian/si...read.php?t=600

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...25357600/pg_4/

    HIGH-INTENSITY HOW-TO

    1 Be objective in analyzing which exercises are best for you. Some conventional movements might not be suited for your physique. In my case, it was squats. After many years of being faithful to them, I realized that the relative lengths of my bodyparts restricted the range of motion for squats. When I switched to the leg press, I made much faster gains in quad size and sweep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Really? What about a Hobbit crossed with a duck-Billed Platypus, who does not have any arms and strangely webbed feet fixed at a 87.668 degree angle? Surely that would fit the criteria.

    You are not Socrates in Plato's Euthyphro my friend, and the squat/dead lift dynamic is not a version of DCM morality. You have made several adaptations even from the first post on this forum. Give it up. Seriously. Physically deranged persons as well as those with the misfortune to be without lower extremities, cannot do said maneuvers. Got it. Drop it. Not to be a **** but you did make this your first thread broham.
    Point out these adaptations with quotations then, if you can.

    The funny thing is you're not actually disagreeing with anything I've said. You may not think my points are particularly worthwhile, but you're not disagreeing with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    lol, drama.

    funny stuff kids.

    I was genetically screwed as far as legs go. But you know what, I gots some. Finally.

    My legs slash twigs came from doing squats and deads.........You can see my fat azz and twigs in my Glycobol Log in my sig.

    Not from the leg press, leg extensions, quad curls, or anything else..........F-in squats and deads until i get purple and dizzy.
    Great, I'm pleased for you. Squats and deads have obviously done you a lot of good, which is in fact completey irrelevant to what I'm saying if you'd actually read what I wrote. I am saying there are some people for whom this won't be the case who would get better results from other movements. Do you deny this, that there are always exceptions to the rule? A simple yes or no.

    Also, many thanks to the guy who provided the Dorian Yates info proving my point about how some people will get better results from movements other than squatting. But then what does a 6 time Olympia winner know, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    The funny thing is you're not actually disagreeing with anything I've said. You may not think my points are particularly worthwhile, but you're not disagreeing with them.
    Right, I am not in any disagreement here. I am merely pointing out the fact that this banter has become cyclical and non-specific and thus both sides are arguing a non sequitur. I would venture to say that you should agree to disagree in this matter. It is the most amicable outcome one could hope for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Right, I am not in any disagreement here. I am merely pointing out the fact that this banter has become cyclical and non-specific and thus both sides are arguing a non sequitur. I would venture to say that you should agree to disagree in this matter. It is the most amicable outcome one could hope for.
    I'm not bothered about amicable outcomes, I'm not planning on buying Juiced some wine and chocolates for Valentine's Day and romancing him on a bed of rose petals, I simply want to prove my point and have others agree with me, and that point is that back squats and conventional deads are NOT essential and in some cases are even best replaced with different exercises (possibly variations of those lifts or, as in Dorian Yates' case, something completely different such as the leg press).

    Do any of us here genuinely think that we would know more about how to train Dorian Yates' body than he knew himself? I mean, honestly? The guy won 6 Olympias and was HUGE. Don't we think he would've been doing the exercises he knew from experience were giving him the best results?

    People here seem to be going off and responding to things they think I have said instead of what I'm actually saying, and I have no idea why. Perhaps this is a provocative thread but even so, when people have responded to what I have ACTUALLY said then not one person has as yet disagreed with me.

    And if someone DOES disagree then I would ask they quote the point they disagree with and explain why they disagree with it, instead of responding to things I haven't said.
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    "There is simply no other exercise and certainly no machine that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strengthening, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning, than the correctly performed FULL SQUAT."

    There is really no debate here. Squat and Deadlift demand the most from your body. Both mentally and physically. You will grow, boost your test. Breathing Squats are known to increase upper body mass also from holding such heavy weights on your back for such long periods at a time and taking deep breaths. Yates may not have squatted (which i wanna see those articles) but maybe he's the genetic freak (that he is) that didn't need it, but that doesn't mean most average joe's can get away with being Yates.
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