Squats and deadlifts - ESSENTIAL? Aid in debate

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  1. "I have given several examples to prove my point. One such eample was Dorian Yates, 6 time Olympia winner who at 5'10" stood on stage at an unbelievably lean and dry 260+lbs. Apparently this example is somehow invalid because he's an "old" bodybuilder, as if this somehow invalidates his insane size that he built without squats and deadlifts."

    here is what you said in your opening statement, notice the part that i have so thoughtfully bolded for you. You say dorian built his six time olympia physique without squats and deadlifts.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    "I have given several examples to prove my point. One such eample was Dorian Yates, 6 time Olympia winner who at 5'10" stood on stage at an unbelievably lean and dry 260+lbs. Apparently this example is somehow invalid because he's an "old" bodybuilder, as if this somehow invalidates his insane size that he built without squats and deadlifts."

    here is what you said in your opening statement, notice the part that i have so thoughtfully bolded for you. You say dorian built his six time olympia physique without squats and deadlifts.
    And he did. He improved his size beyond his initial wins WITHOUT squats and deadlifts. Gosh, imagine that. He grew even further without squats and deadlifts. What a shocker.

    And again, why are you ignoring my statements? If you're not afraid of agreeing with me why don't you simply answer what I'm asking you?
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Please point out where one person has directly disgreed with something I have said. Quotations should be easy to provide.
    Dont squat then, tell more people not to. Fine by me.

    Less traffic in the squat rack for me.

    That doesnt mean do ****ing curls in the squat rack either.

    Unsubbing. This thread is a waste of time.

    Anyone that doesnt include squats and deads into there workout program, at least perodically, is missing out on 2 of the 3 major compound lifts.

    There have been countless studies showing the effects on testosterone and IGF with squats to even waste another minute on this topic.

    The below is ONE study done on the eccentric portion of the squats, my personal favorite. I see the most growth going slow on the negative and doing statics.....Though it is very grueling thus requires more diligence and effort in the recovery stages.

    Point in question-

    Kristofer's Fat-azz Recomp with GLYCOBOL


    Out!.

  4. oh...i thought that i was making that clear. I believe that squats and deads are ESSENTIAL....at least in the beginning. When your 250-260 and lean, you can do whatever the fu#k you want to after that. My point is Dorian gained his size from squatting and then changed to other movements later to work on different aspects of his leg development. But had he not squatted religously for years he never would have been the champoin that he was.

  5. you really need to do yourself a favor...watch this video, all the way through.


  6. Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    Dont squat then, tell more people not to. Fine by me.
    Neither of these things are things I have said. I do in fact squat, nor have I told other people not to, so I have no idea why you think I have said either of these things unless you can't read.
    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    oh...i thought that i was making that clear. I believe that squats and deads are ESSENTIAL....at least in the beginning. When your 250-260 and lean, you can do whatever the fu#k you want to after that. My point is Dorian gained his size from squatting and then changed to other movements later to work on different aspects of his leg development. But had he not squatted religously for years he never would have been the champoin that he was.
    OK, thank you for this response at least, this makes your opinion much clearer. I wonder if Dorian would agree with you? That being the case, if squats and deads are ESSENTIAL, how do you account for paraplegic bodybuilders who are unable to do either of these?

    Also, perhaps you could do me the honour of responding to the five statements that I have now posted twice.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    OK, thank you for this response at least, this makes your opinion much clearer. I wonder if Dorian would agree with you? That being the case, if squats and deads are ESSENTIAL, how do you account for paraplegic bodybuilders who are unable to do either of these?
    HERE HE GOES AGAIN WITH THE DAMN PARAPLEGICS

  8. Just say when on the neg train, and Im in.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    HERE HE GOES AGAIN WITH THE DAMN PARAPLEGICS
    Yes, because if squats and deads were essential to building muscle (look the word up) then that means paraplegic bodybuilders couldn't have gained a single ounce of muscle. What about that is hard to understand?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    Just say when on the neg train, and Im in.
    negged him haha
    •   
       


  11. Why are you so afraid to respond to my questions?

    Please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    negged him haha
    Oh my God, noooooo! You.... negged me? My life is completely over!

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Oh my God, noooooo! You.... negged me? My life is completely over!
    go sit on a d1ck and bounce

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Why are you so afraid to respond to my questions?

    Please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    True

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    True

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    Trick question. One CAN build muscle without a doubt. But why half-ass it? I mean really. There is too much evidence out there to over look compound lifts such as these.

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    Each individual has his/her own limits. These other lifts are trying to replace the squat and dead. Better results?, if the squat and and deads are done properly, NO WAY.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Same question? WTF dude? NO.

    6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.

    Nice, now you have included the physically challenged in this debate.
    Have you no shame?

    Answered. Negged and I am out for good.

  15. Why are you guys still so afraid of addressing my numbered points?

  16. Trick question. One CAN build muscle without a doubt. But why half-ass it? I mean really. There is too much evidence out there to over look compound lifts such as these.

    Nobody's overlooking anything. I'm just agreeing with Dorian you pick the lifts that cater to your strengths.


    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    Each individual has his/her own limits. These other lifts are trying to replace the squat and dead. Better results?, if the squat and and deads are done properly, NO WAY.


    So you're saying that for someone with long legs the back squat is ALWAYS better than the front squat, for instance?



    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Same question? WTF dude? NO.


    Not the same question at all. Admittedly this is an infintesimal and nigh irrelevant minority but I thought what the Hell.



    6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.

    Nice, now you have included the physically challenged in this debate.
    Have you no shame?


    Quite the opposite. This thread is about whether squats and deads are ESSENTIAL. Paraplegic bodybuilders prove categorically they aren't. Why should we ignore the achievements of people who have overcome adversity to accomplish something? I think they should be celebrated, not ignored.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Since a lot of people seem to be struggling not to go off on a tangent, here are some simple statements. If you agree with all of them you agree with me. If not, explain which ones you disagree with and why.

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Simple agree or disagree answers to these statements are all that is necessary. If you agree with them then you agree with me. Simple.
    I agree with this to a point....but the problem is most people who are just lazy would look at this and say that they are in this category. Therefore they do not have to squat or deadlift and then when they dont get results they will blaim it on their genes and not the fact that they are lazy. I would say there are very,very few people out their who wouldnt benefit from a conventional squat and dead.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    I agree with this to a point....but the problem is most people who are just lazy would look at this and say that they are in this category. Therefore they do not have to squat or deadlift and then when they dont get results they will blaim it on their genes and not the fact that they are lazy. I would say there are very,very few people out their who wouldnt benefit from a conventional squat and dead.
    Yeah, but dude, don't you get it? That is EXACTLY what I have been saying this whole time, people have just been choosing to ignore it and respond to things they want me to have been saying but I haven't said instead. Go back and read my posts and you will see I have never said anything different to what you just said and what you agreed with.

    Like I said, I squat and dead, and I would suggest that the vast majority of people should squat and dead too. My points are simply that A) you can progress without them even if you can be doing them, and B) there is a small minority of people who would be better off entirely without them.

    Somehow this has been translated into "nobody at all should squat and deadlift ever," and I have got no idea why since I've made myself very clear.

  19. okay...then we agree.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    okay...then we agree.
    Indeed! Now, fingers crossed everyone else will read what I've actually written instead of what they want me to have written and agree as well.

  21. Before squats, i had no ass. I worked hams and quads but couldnt fill out a pair of pants in the rear.

    Why neglect the glutes/hips?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Jay V 24 View Post
    Before squats, i had no ass. I worked hams and quads but couldnt fill out a pair of pants in the rear.

    Why neglect the glutes/hips?
    When did anybody ever suggest doing this?

  23. Just squat and stfu, why even make a thread about it?

    GICH!

    Seriously though, some people are just big naturally and dont need to SFW like an animal.

    Youre suggesting because yates didnt squat that you shouldnt either?

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Jay V 24 View Post
    Just squat and stfu, why even make a thread about it?

    GICH!

    Seriously though, some people are just big naturally and dont need to SFW like an animal.

    Youre suggesting because yates didnt squat that you shouldnt either?
    I'm not "suggesting" anything. If you want to know what I think then READ MY POSTS.

    Christ, is reading something really so difficult?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Jay V 24 View Post
    Just squat and stfu, why even make a thread about it?

    GICH!

    Seriously though, some people are just big naturally and dont need to SFW like an animal.

    Youre suggesting because yates didnt squat that you shouldnt either?
    Squelchy suggested nothing of the sort. Not sure where you got that from his posts.

    The original poster in question asserted that it was ESSENTIAL to squat and DL in order to achieve any lean mass gains. Would you like to address that statement?

  26. 1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    TRUE

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    what..front squat? hack squat? sumo dead? rack pulls? stiff leg dead?
    the answer is FALSE: If you want a flushed out answer ask and I will type up an essay.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    TRUE: But not for MAXIMIZED gains. only for gains.

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    FALSE: An old woman who uses a walker (crippled) set it aside and squatted 90 lbs. at a powerlifting meet that Scott Mendelson was at. So he among others, hates it when guys complain about their knees or limb length, when crippled ladies can squat.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    FALSE:

    I think the overall problem in these questions is you haven't clearly defined the word "RESULTS."

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Jsherbro View Post
    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    what..front squat? hack squat? sumo dead? rack pulls? stiff leg dead?
    the answer is FALSE: If you want a flushed out answer ask and I will type up an essay.
    Please do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jsherbro View Post
    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    FALSE: An old woman who uses a walker (crippled) set it aside and squatted 90 lbs. at a powerlifting meet that Scott Mendelson was at. So he among others, hates it when guys complain about their knees or limb length, when crippled ladies can squat.
    So you're saying that for absolutely EVERYBODY, bar NONE, the back squat and conventional deadlift are the best exercises that can be done?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jsherbro View Post
    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    FALSE:
    So Dorian Yates didn't know what he was doing then?

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Fet View Post
    Squelchy suggested nothing of the sort. Not sure where you got that from his posts.

    The original poster in question asserted that it was ESSENTIAL to squat and DL in order to achieve any lean mass gains. Would you like to address that statement?
    no i didnt haha. i said they were the best to maximum rates of growth. does that mean the rates are nonexistant without them? no


    might wanna move ur nose form squelchy's ass.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    no i didnt haha. i said they were the best to maximum rates of growth. does that mean the rates are nonexistant without them? no


    might wanna move ur nose form squelchy's ass.
    You said:

    the only exercise that can replace the squat is the deadlift..

    if you do neither.. you are not working out
    I don't see "maximum" in there.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    might wanna move ur nose form squelchy's ass.
    Lmao, Fet is actually debating WHAT HAS BEEN SAID, whereas you're the one posting bromance comments such as:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    bahaha this guys great.
    ....and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    and thank you again, your a boss.
    And something more recently along the lines of "Dude, let's neg him, it will be totally sweet, we're totally awesome."

    "I agree, we are awesome, let's totally neg him, I totally love you dude. Let's make out."

    Might want to extract your own nose from the anuses (anii?) of others before recommending such a process to others, eh?

    Good lad.
  

  
 

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