Squats and deadlifts - ESSENTIAL? Aid in debate

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  1. If you can't squat to parallel you should start with a tall box squat, extra posterior-chain work, core work, flexibility/mobility and continue with it until you can hit at least parallel. If your low back isn't "strong enough" to squat work your damn core. Then leg press/hack squat to your little hearts content after you squat. If you "can't" deadlift conventional then sumo deadlift or hex-bar deadlift. But deadlift. Maybe you start with partials and continue to progress to full range as you flexibility, mobility, and core strength get up to par. But if you have legs you should be doing them.
    ONLY WAY?? No, but incredibly stupid not to. Like trying to get big biceps when you can't even do pullups. Or triceps but I don't do dips.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    But fine, let me give you another example. Someone 6'6", proportionately long legs and short arms, poor hip and ankle flexibility and a weak lower back, all of which combine to mean that the person can't back squat to parallel or do deadlifts off the floor without rounding their back.... in your mind they should still back squat and conventional deadlift should they?

    Really? What about a Hobbit crossed with a duck-Billed Platypus, who does not have any arms and strangely webbed feet fixed at a 87.668 degree angle? Surely that would fit the criteria.

    You are not Socrates in Plato's Euthyphro my friend, and the squat/dead lift dynamic is not a version of DCM morality. You have made several adaptations even from the first post on this forum. Give it up. Seriously. Physically deranged persons as well as those with the misfortune to be without lower extremities, cannot do said maneuvers. Got it. Drop it. Not to be a **** but you did make this your first thread broham.
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  3. lol, drama.

    funny stuff kids.

    I was genetically screwed as far as legs go. But you know what, I gots some. Finally.

    My legs slash twigs came from doing squats and deads.........You can see my fat azz and twigs in my Glycobol Log in my sig.

    Not from the leg press, leg extensions, quad curls, or anything else..........F-in squats and deads until i get purple and dizzy.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    ONLY WAY?? No, but incredibly stupid not to.
    Thank you. The poster in question was asserting that it was the ONLY way.

  5. i find it very hard to believe that dorian never squatted or deadlifted. mabye later on in his carreer he quit doing them but i cant imagine it wasnt a part of his training at some point.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    i find it very hard to believe that dorian never squatted or deadlifted. mabye later on in his carreer he quit doing them but i cant imagine it wasnt a part of his training at some point.
    http://www.dorianyates.net/dorian/si...read.php?t=600

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...25357600/pg_4/

    HIGH-INTENSITY HOW-TO

    1 Be objective in analyzing which exercises are best for you. Some conventional movements might not be suited for your physique. In my case, it was squats. After many years of being faithful to them, I realized that the relative lengths of my bodyparts restricted the range of motion for squats. When I switched to the leg press, I made much faster gains in quad size and sweep.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Really? What about a Hobbit crossed with a duck-Billed Platypus, who does not have any arms and strangely webbed feet fixed at a 87.668 degree angle? Surely that would fit the criteria.

    You are not Socrates in Plato's Euthyphro my friend, and the squat/dead lift dynamic is not a version of DCM morality. You have made several adaptations even from the first post on this forum. Give it up. Seriously. Physically deranged persons as well as those with the misfortune to be without lower extremities, cannot do said maneuvers. Got it. Drop it. Not to be a **** but you did make this your first thread broham.
    Point out these adaptations with quotations then, if you can.

    The funny thing is you're not actually disagreeing with anything I've said. You may not think my points are particularly worthwhile, but you're not disagreeing with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    lol, drama.

    funny stuff kids.

    I was genetically screwed as far as legs go. But you know what, I gots some. Finally.

    My legs slash twigs came from doing squats and deads.........You can see my fat azz and twigs in my Glycobol Log in my sig.

    Not from the leg press, leg extensions, quad curls, or anything else..........F-in squats and deads until i get purple and dizzy.
    Great, I'm pleased for you. Squats and deads have obviously done you a lot of good, which is in fact completey irrelevant to what I'm saying if you'd actually read what I wrote. I am saying there are some people for whom this won't be the case who would get better results from other movements. Do you deny this, that there are always exceptions to the rule? A simple yes or no.

    Also, many thanks to the guy who provided the Dorian Yates info proving my point about how some people will get better results from movements other than squatting. But then what does a 6 time Olympia winner know, right?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    The funny thing is you're not actually disagreeing with anything I've said. You may not think my points are particularly worthwhile, but you're not disagreeing with them.
    Right, I am not in any disagreement here. I am merely pointing out the fact that this banter has become cyclical and non-specific and thus both sides are arguing a non sequitur. I would venture to say that you should agree to disagree in this matter. It is the most amicable outcome one could hope for.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Right, I am not in any disagreement here. I am merely pointing out the fact that this banter has become cyclical and non-specific and thus both sides are arguing a non sequitur. I would venture to say that you should agree to disagree in this matter. It is the most amicable outcome one could hope for.
    I'm not bothered about amicable outcomes, I'm not planning on buying Juiced some wine and chocolates for Valentine's Day and romancing him on a bed of rose petals, I simply want to prove my point and have others agree with me, and that point is that back squats and conventional deads are NOT essential and in some cases are even best replaced with different exercises (possibly variations of those lifts or, as in Dorian Yates' case, something completely different such as the leg press).

    Do any of us here genuinely think that we would know more about how to train Dorian Yates' body than he knew himself? I mean, honestly? The guy won 6 Olympias and was HUGE. Don't we think he would've been doing the exercises he knew from experience were giving him the best results?

    People here seem to be going off and responding to things they think I have said instead of what I'm actually saying, and I have no idea why. Perhaps this is a provocative thread but even so, when people have responded to what I have ACTUALLY said then not one person has as yet disagreed with me.

    And if someone DOES disagree then I would ask they quote the point they disagree with and explain why they disagree with it, instead of responding to things I haven't said.

  10. "There is simply no other exercise and certainly no machine that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strengthening, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning, than the correctly performed FULL SQUAT."

    There is really no debate here. Squat and Deadlift demand the most from your body. Both mentally and physically. You will grow, boost your test. Breathing Squats are known to increase upper body mass also from holding such heavy weights on your back for such long periods at a time and taking deep breaths. Yates may not have squatted (which i wanna see those articles) but maybe he's the genetic freak (that he is) that didn't need it, but that doesn't mean most average joe's can get away with being Yates.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Jsherbro View Post
    "There is simply no other exercise and certainly no machine that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strengthening, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning, than the correctly performed FULL SQUAT."

    There is really no debate here. Squat and Deadlift demand the most from your body. Both mentally and physically. You will grow, boost your test. Breathing Squats are known to increase upper body mass also from holding such heavy weights on your back for such long periods at a time and taking deep breaths. Yates may not have squatted (which i wanna see those articles) but maybe he's the genetic freak (that he is) that didn't need it, but that doesn't mean most average joe's can get away with being Yates.
    Lmao, you're not responding to what I'm saying! Nobody is saying MOST average Joes will get optimal results without squatting! What I'm saying is that SOME people will get better results with alternative exercises, particularly A) those with body structures not well suited to the back squat, and B) those more advanced for whom the total systemic effect of squatting is less important than inducing appropriate levels of localised fatigue. A prime example of this is advanced powerlifter Dave Gulledge who had a lower body injury during the rehab time for which he increased his bench by 50lbs because he was handling loads so demanding on his body that his upper body recovered and grew more easily without the lower body work hampering its recovery. You can find loads about him on Google. There's another bodybuilder who severely limited lower body work for a year to achieve largely the same goal, I'll post his name if it comes to me.

    Yes, MOST people will get excellent benefits from back squats and would be better off with them. This is not the case for EVERYBODY, and some people would be better suited to different exercises. This is a simple point. A simple yes or no disagreement and an explanation of why is all that's needed.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Lmao, you're not responding to what I'm saying! Nobody is saying MOST average Joes will get optimal results without squatting! What I'm saying is that SOME people will get better results with alternative exercises, particularly A) those with body structures not well suited to the back squat, and B) those more advanced for whom the total systemic effect of squatting is less important than inducing appropriate levels of localised fatigue. A prime example of this is advanced powerlifter Dave Gulledge who had a lower body injury during the rehab time for which he increased his bench by 50lbs because he was handling loads so demanding on his body that his upper body recovered and grew more easily without the lower body work hampering its recovery. You can find loads about him on Google. There's another bodybuilder who severely limited lower body work for a year to achieve largely the same goal, I'll post his name if it comes to me.

    Yes, MOST people will get excellent benefits from back squats and would be better off with them. This is not the case for EVERYBODY, and some people would be better suited to different exercises. This is a simple point. A simple yes or no disagreement and an explanation of why is all that's needed.
    Unless you have formal training and an accompanying degree in exercise science and/or an advanced knowledge of body kinesthetic, you are just spouting circumstantial brotelligence lacking any concrete evidence that you are or are not correct. Repeating ad nauseam "Yates never did 'em and he was HAAA-UUOOGE", or "mongoloids and bilateral amputees don't do 'em", is a useless premise for your conclusion. Stop being a tool.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Unless you have formal training and an accompanying degree in exercise science and/or an advanced knowledge of body kinesthetic, you are just spouting circumstantial brotelligence lacking any concrete evidence that you are or are not correct. Repeating ad nauseam "Yates never did 'em and he was HAAA-UUOOGE", or "mongoloids and bilateral amputees don't do 'em", is a useless premise for your conclusion. Stop being a tool.
    Well, even though I disagree with you, at least you have explained the nature of your disagreement, so thank you.

    Ultimately though, so much of lifting IS pure circumstantial "brotelligence" and trial and error though. How often to train muscles, how to organise how you train them, the volume you train them with, what exercises you use, etc. Surely you will acknowledge that ALL of this will vary on an individual by individual basis, and will even change within the circumstances of an individual as he or she becomes more advanced?

    I mean, would you still train muscles with the exact same volume, frequency and exercises at 240lbs as you did at 140lbs?

    This is one of my points. There are no 'rules.' That's why people train in different ways, particularly those intelligent enough to become more advanced, because there is no one right way to do things, there is only the way that is right FOR YOU. I mean, if Yates was getting results from leg press he wasn't from squats, wouldn't you agree it would have been stupid of him to discontinue leg press and stick with squats just because it's considered to be 'the thing to do?'

    Just something to bear in mind.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    I'm a f|_|cking idiot who makes extreme exception cases that are as productive as a retarded horse.
    finally you said something right.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    finally you said something right.
    Ah, I see you've given up on pretending you're addressing what I'm actually saying and have decided to engage in debating tactics more appropriate to your mental level.

    Good work.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Ah, I see you've given up on pretending you're addressing what I'm actually saying and have decided to engage in debating tactics more appropriate to your mental level.

    Good work.
    .. take a joke.. we've already decided that you were wrong

    its over. let it go.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    .. take a joke.. we've already decided that you were wrong

    its over. let it go.
    Please point out where one person has directly disgreed with something I have said. Quotations should be easy to provide.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Please point out where one person has directly disgreed with something I have said. Quotations should be easy to provide.
    they are making fun of you and calling you stupid

    that means they're disagreeing. check any of the posts for reference.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    they are making fun of you and calling you stupid

    that means they're disagreeing. check any of the posts for reference.
    They're making fun because they think my points are irrelevant to most people, and I agree, they are. That doesn't mean they're disagreeing with what I'm saying, just that they think it's pointless to say it. There's a difference.

    Again, I challenge anyone to directly disagree with what I'm saying. Not comment on how relevant it is, but provide a quotation of something I have said they believe to be wrong and explain why they think it's wrong.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    They're making fun because they think my points are irrelevant to most people, and I agree, they are. That doesn't mean they're disagreeing with what I'm saying, just that they think it's pointless to say it. There's a difference.
    "are you in loser denial or something?"

    billymadison

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    "are you in loser denial or something?"

    billymadison
    Right, and what exactly did he disagree with? He didn't say he disagreed with anything, did he? No, he didn't.

    It's hilarious, not one person has actually answered even one of the questions I've asked, which I will now repeat for newcomers.

    1) Should EVERYBODY be squatting and deadlifting, regardless or the shape of their body, muscle dominances, weaknesses, flexibility issues, etc?

    2) Are there ANY exceptions to the 'rule' where squats and deadlifts will give you better gains than any other exercises?

    3) Is it possibe to grow without squats and deads?

    Simple questions yet nobody has answered them. Gee, wonder why?

  22. Since a lot of people seem to be struggling not to go off on a tangent, here are some simple statements. If you agree with all of them you agree with me. If not, explain which ones you disagree with and why.

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Simple agree or disagree answers to these statements are all that is necessary. If you agree with them then you agree with me. Simple.

  23. omg dude stop.. i'm not even gunna read that

    UR SO ANNOYING

  24. Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Really? What about a Hobbit crossed with a duck-Billed Platypus, who does not have any arms and strangely webbed feet fixed at a 87.668 degree angle? Surely that would fit the criteria.
    bahaha this guys great.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    omg dude stop.. i'm not even gunna read that

    UR SO ANNOYING
    If you're not even going to be civil or intelligent enough to read what I post in order to logically disagree with it (or not) then why are you bothering to post?

  26. so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    If you're not even going to be civil or intelligent enough to read what I post in order to logically disagree with it (or not) then why are you bothering to post?
    cuz its over, u need to let it go now.. AM has spoken.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.
    and thank you again, your a boss.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.
    So, just to clarify, that fits in exactly with what I was saying.

    Gosh, what a surprise.

  30. Again, please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.
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