Squats and deadlifts - ESSENTIAL? Aid in debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jsherbro View Post
    "There is simply no other exercise and certainly no machine that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strengthening, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning, than the correctly performed FULL SQUAT."

    There is really no debate here. Squat and Deadlift demand the most from your body. Both mentally and physically. You will grow, boost your test. Breathing Squats are known to increase upper body mass also from holding such heavy weights on your back for such long periods at a time and taking deep breaths. Yates may not have squatted (which i wanna see those articles) but maybe he's the genetic freak (that he is) that didn't need it, but that doesn't mean most average joe's can get away with being Yates.
    Lmao, you're not responding to what I'm saying! Nobody is saying MOST average Joes will get optimal results without squatting! What I'm saying is that SOME people will get better results with alternative exercises, particularly A) those with body structures not well suited to the back squat, and B) those more advanced for whom the total systemic effect of squatting is less important than inducing appropriate levels of localised fatigue. A prime example of this is advanced powerlifter Dave Gulledge who had a lower body injury during the rehab time for which he increased his bench by 50lbs because he was handling loads so demanding on his body that his upper body recovered and grew more easily without the lower body work hampering its recovery. You can find loads about him on Google. There's another bodybuilder who severely limited lower body work for a year to achieve largely the same goal, I'll post his name if it comes to me.

    Yes, MOST people will get excellent benefits from back squats and would be better off with them. This is not the case for EVERYBODY, and some people would be better suited to different exercises. This is a simple point. A simple yes or no disagreement and an explanation of why is all that's needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Lmao, you're not responding to what I'm saying! Nobody is saying MOST average Joes will get optimal results without squatting! What I'm saying is that SOME people will get better results with alternative exercises, particularly A) those with body structures not well suited to the back squat, and B) those more advanced for whom the total systemic effect of squatting is less important than inducing appropriate levels of localised fatigue. A prime example of this is advanced powerlifter Dave Gulledge who had a lower body injury during the rehab time for which he increased his bench by 50lbs because he was handling loads so demanding on his body that his upper body recovered and grew more easily without the lower body work hampering its recovery. You can find loads about him on Google. There's another bodybuilder who severely limited lower body work for a year to achieve largely the same goal, I'll post his name if it comes to me.

    Yes, MOST people will get excellent benefits from back squats and would be better off with them. This is not the case for EVERYBODY, and some people would be better suited to different exercises. This is a simple point. A simple yes or no disagreement and an explanation of why is all that's needed.
    Unless you have formal training and an accompanying degree in exercise science and/or an advanced knowledge of body kinesthetic, you are just spouting circumstantial brotelligence lacking any concrete evidence that you are or are not correct. Repeating ad nauseam "Yates never did 'em and he was HAAA-UUOOGE", or "mongoloids and bilateral amputees don't do 'em", is a useless premise for your conclusion. Stop being a tool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Unless you have formal training and an accompanying degree in exercise science and/or an advanced knowledge of body kinesthetic, you are just spouting circumstantial brotelligence lacking any concrete evidence that you are or are not correct. Repeating ad nauseam "Yates never did 'em and he was HAAA-UUOOGE", or "mongoloids and bilateral amputees don't do 'em", is a useless premise for your conclusion. Stop being a tool.
    Well, even though I disagree with you, at least you have explained the nature of your disagreement, so thank you.

    Ultimately though, so much of lifting IS pure circumstantial "brotelligence" and trial and error though. How often to train muscles, how to organise how you train them, the volume you train them with, what exercises you use, etc. Surely you will acknowledge that ALL of this will vary on an individual by individual basis, and will even change within the circumstances of an individual as he or she becomes more advanced?

    I mean, would you still train muscles with the exact same volume, frequency and exercises at 240lbs as you did at 140lbs?

    This is one of my points. There are no 'rules.' That's why people train in different ways, particularly those intelligent enough to become more advanced, because there is no one right way to do things, there is only the way that is right FOR YOU. I mean, if Yates was getting results from leg press he wasn't from squats, wouldn't you agree it would have been stupid of him to discontinue leg press and stick with squats just because it's considered to be 'the thing to do?'

    Just something to bear in mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    I'm a f|_|cking idiot who makes extreme exception cases that are as productive as a retarded horse.
    finally you said something right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    finally you said something right.
    Ah, I see you've given up on pretending you're addressing what I'm actually saying and have decided to engage in debating tactics more appropriate to your mental level.

    Good work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Ah, I see you've given up on pretending you're addressing what I'm actually saying and have decided to engage in debating tactics more appropriate to your mental level.

    Good work.
    .. take a joke.. we've already decided that you were wrong

    its over. let it go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    .. take a joke.. we've already decided that you were wrong

    its over. let it go.
    Please point out where one person has directly disgreed with something I have said. Quotations should be easy to provide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Please point out where one person has directly disgreed with something I have said. Quotations should be easy to provide.
    they are making fun of you and calling you stupid

    that means they're disagreeing. check any of the posts for reference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    they are making fun of you and calling you stupid

    that means they're disagreeing. check any of the posts for reference.
    They're making fun because they think my points are irrelevant to most people, and I agree, they are. That doesn't mean they're disagreeing with what I'm saying, just that they think it's pointless to say it. There's a difference.

    Again, I challenge anyone to directly disagree with what I'm saying. Not comment on how relevant it is, but provide a quotation of something I have said they believe to be wrong and explain why they think it's wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    They're making fun because they think my points are irrelevant to most people, and I agree, they are. That doesn't mean they're disagreeing with what I'm saying, just that they think it's pointless to say it. There's a difference.
    "are you in loser denial or something?"

    billymadison
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    "are you in loser denial or something?"

    billymadison
    Right, and what exactly did he disagree with? He didn't say he disagreed with anything, did he? No, he didn't.

    It's hilarious, not one person has actually answered even one of the questions I've asked, which I will now repeat for newcomers.

    1) Should EVERYBODY be squatting and deadlifting, regardless or the shape of their body, muscle dominances, weaknesses, flexibility issues, etc?

    2) Are there ANY exceptions to the 'rule' where squats and deadlifts will give you better gains than any other exercises?

    3) Is it possibe to grow without squats and deads?

    Simple questions yet nobody has answered them. Gee, wonder why?
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    Since a lot of people seem to be struggling not to go off on a tangent, here are some simple statements. If you agree with all of them you agree with me. If not, explain which ones you disagree with and why.

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Simple agree or disagree answers to these statements are all that is necessary. If you agree with them then you agree with me. Simple.
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    omg dude stop.. i'm not even gunna read that

    UR SO ANNOYING
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathed View Post
    Really? What about a Hobbit crossed with a duck-Billed Platypus, who does not have any arms and strangely webbed feet fixed at a 87.668 degree angle? Surely that would fit the criteria.
    bahaha this guys great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    omg dude stop.. i'm not even gunna read that

    UR SO ANNOYING
    If you're not even going to be civil or intelligent enough to read what I post in order to logically disagree with it (or not) then why are you bothering to post?
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    so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    If you're not even going to be civil or intelligent enough to read what I post in order to logically disagree with it (or not) then why are you bothering to post?
    cuz its over, u need to let it go now.. AM has spoken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.
    and thank you again, your a boss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    so just to clarify...Dorian did in fact squat for many years and then stop doing them later on. Many, many bodybuilders stop squatting after developing sufficient leg mass.
    So, just to clarify, that fits in exactly with what I was saying.

    Gosh, what a surprise.
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    Again, please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.
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    "I have given several examples to prove my point. One such eample was Dorian Yates, 6 time Olympia winner who at 5'10" stood on stage at an unbelievably lean and dry 260+lbs. Apparently this example is somehow invalid because he's an "old" bodybuilder, as if this somehow invalidates his insane size that he built without squats and deadlifts."

    here is what you said in your opening statement, notice the part that i have so thoughtfully bolded for you. You say dorian built his six time olympia physique without squats and deadlifts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    "I have given several examples to prove my point. One such eample was Dorian Yates, 6 time Olympia winner who at 5'10" stood on stage at an unbelievably lean and dry 260+lbs. Apparently this example is somehow invalid because he's an "old" bodybuilder, as if this somehow invalidates his insane size that he built without squats and deadlifts."

    here is what you said in your opening statement, notice the part that i have so thoughtfully bolded for you. You say dorian built his six time olympia physique without squats and deadlifts.
    And he did. He improved his size beyond his initial wins WITHOUT squats and deadlifts. Gosh, imagine that. He grew even further without squats and deadlifts. What a shocker.

    And again, why are you ignoring my statements? If you're not afraid of agreeing with me why don't you simply answer what I'm asking you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Please point out where one person has directly disgreed with something I have said. Quotations should be easy to provide.
    Dont squat then, tell more people not to. Fine by me.

    Less traffic in the squat rack for me.

    That doesnt mean do ****ing curls in the squat rack either.

    Unsubbing. This thread is a waste of time.

    Anyone that doesnt include squats and deads into there workout program, at least perodically, is missing out on 2 of the 3 major compound lifts.

    There have been countless studies showing the effects on testosterone and IGF with squats to even waste another minute on this topic.

    The below is ONE study done on the eccentric portion of the squats, my personal favorite. I see the most growth going slow on the negative and doing statics.....Though it is very grueling thus requires more diligence and effort in the recovery stages.

    Point in question-

    Kristofer's Fat-azz Recomp with GLYCOBOL


    Out!.
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    oh...i thought that i was making that clear. I believe that squats and deads are ESSENTIAL....at least in the beginning. When your 250-260 and lean, you can do whatever the fu#k you want to after that. My point is Dorian gained his size from squatting and then changed to other movements later to work on different aspects of his leg development. But had he not squatted religously for years he never would have been the champoin that he was.
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    you really need to do yourself a favor...watch this video, all the way through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    Dont squat then, tell more people not to. Fine by me.
    Neither of these things are things I have said. I do in fact squat, nor have I told other people not to, so I have no idea why you think I have said either of these things unless you can't read.
    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    oh...i thought that i was making that clear. I believe that squats and deads are ESSENTIAL....at least in the beginning. When your 250-260 and lean, you can do whatever the fu#k you want to after that. My point is Dorian gained his size from squatting and then changed to other movements later to work on different aspects of his leg development. But had he not squatted religously for years he never would have been the champoin that he was.
    OK, thank you for this response at least, this makes your opinion much clearer. I wonder if Dorian would agree with you? That being the case, if squats and deads are ESSENTIAL, how do you account for paraplegic bodybuilders who are unable to do either of these?

    Also, perhaps you could do me the honour of responding to the five statements that I have now posted twice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    OK, thank you for this response at least, this makes your opinion much clearer. I wonder if Dorian would agree with you? That being the case, if squats and deads are ESSENTIAL, how do you account for paraplegic bodybuilders who are unable to do either of these?
    HERE HE GOES AGAIN WITH THE DAMN PARAPLEGICS
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    Just say when on the neg train, and Im in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    HERE HE GOES AGAIN WITH THE DAMN PARAPLEGICS
    Yes, because if squats and deads were essential to building muscle (look the word up) then that means paraplegic bodybuilders couldn't have gained a single ounce of muscle. What about that is hard to understand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristofer68SS View Post
    Just say when on the neg train, and Im in.
    negged him haha
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    Why are you so afraid to respond to my questions?

    Please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ju1cedUp View Post
    negged him haha
    Oh my God, noooooo! You.... negged me? My life is completely over!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Oh my God, noooooo! You.... negged me? My life is completely over!
    go sit on a d1ck and bounce
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Why are you so afraid to respond to my questions?

    Please respond with correct or incorrect answers to these statements:

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    True

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    True

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    Trick question. One CAN build muscle without a doubt. But why half-ass it? I mean really. There is too much evidence out there to over look compound lifts such as these.

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    Each individual has his/her own limits. These other lifts are trying to replace the squat and dead. Better results?, if the squat and and deads are done properly, NO WAY.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Same question? WTF dude? NO.

    6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.

    Nice, now you have included the physically challenged in this debate.
    Have you no shame?

    Answered. Negged and I am out for good.
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    Why are you guys still so afraid of addressing my numbered points?
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    Trick question. One CAN build muscle without a doubt. But why half-ass it? I mean really. There is too much evidence out there to over look compound lifts such as these.

    Nobody's overlooking anything. I'm just agreeing with Dorian you pick the lifts that cater to your strengths.


    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    Each individual has his/her own limits. These other lifts are trying to replace the squat and dead. Better results?, if the squat and and deads are done properly, NO WAY.


    So you're saying that for someone with long legs the back squat is ALWAYS better than the front squat, for instance?



    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Same question? WTF dude? NO.


    Not the same question at all. Admittedly this is an infintesimal and nigh irrelevant minority but I thought what the Hell.



    6) Squats and deads are essential, therefore paraplegic bodybuilders do not exist and are completely imaginary.

    Nice, now you have included the physically challenged in this debate.
    Have you no shame?


    Quite the opposite. This thread is about whether squats and deads are ESSENTIAL. Paraplegic bodybuilders prove categorically they aren't. Why should we ignore the achievements of people who have overcome adversity to accomplish something? I think they should be celebrated, not ignored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelchy View Post
    Since a lot of people seem to be struggling not to go off on a tangent, here are some simple statements. If you agree with all of them you agree with me. If not, explain which ones you disagree with and why.

    1) Back squats and conventional deadlifts are amazing mass building movements that most people will grow extremely well from.

    2) Almost everyone will grow better from having some form of squat and deadlift in their routine, even if not the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    3) It is not absolutely necessary to squat and deadlift to build muscle, although in almost every case it helps

    4) There is a small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than the back squat and conventional deadlift.

    5) There is an even smaller, very small minority of people who, for various reasons such as limb length, flexibility issues and muscle imbalances, will get better results from exercises other than ANY form of the squat and deadlift.

    Simple agree or disagree answers to these statements are all that is necessary. If you agree with them then you agree with me. Simple.
    I agree with this to a point....but the problem is most people who are just lazy would look at this and say that they are in this category. Therefore they do not have to squat or deadlift and then when they dont get results they will blaim it on their genes and not the fact that they are lazy. I would say there are very,very few people out their who wouldnt benefit from a conventional squat and dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    I agree with this to a point....but the problem is most people who are just lazy would look at this and say that they are in this category. Therefore they do not have to squat or deadlift and then when they dont get results they will blaim it on their genes and not the fact that they are lazy. I would say there are very,very few people out their who wouldnt benefit from a conventional squat and dead.
    Yeah, but dude, don't you get it? That is EXACTLY what I have been saying this whole time, people have just been choosing to ignore it and respond to things they want me to have been saying but I haven't said instead. Go back and read my posts and you will see I have never said anything different to what you just said and what you agreed with.

    Like I said, I squat and dead, and I would suggest that the vast majority of people should squat and dead too. My points are simply that A) you can progress without them even if you can be doing them, and B) there is a small minority of people who would be better off entirely without them.

    Somehow this has been translated into "nobody at all should squat and deadlift ever," and I have got no idea why since I've made myself very clear.
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    okay...then we agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    okay...then we agree.
    Indeed! Now, fingers crossed everyone else will read what I've actually written instead of what they want me to have written and agree as well.
  

  
 

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