Krav Maga (Israeli Self Defense)?
- 11-02-2007, 05:42 PM
Krav Maga (Israeli Self Defense)?
Well I figured this would be the appropriate section to ask this question since most of you guys are familiar with this fighting/self defense practice.
Myself and my friend are looking to get into a class to teach us how to defend ourselves and those around us if the situation arises. When I first started looking around into a solid fighting course to learn (I was considering potentially jujitsu, grappling, and other potential arts that were pertinent to MMA.) However I then came across Krav Maga (or Israeli Self Defense) and it aroused my attention because of its past and its ability to translate very well into a lot of situations in the real world.
Now I don't want this to sound lame but my friend and my self are going into our freshman year of college and many of the situations that would arise there aren't of the magnitude of what Krav maga seems to teach (Although I may be going to Fordham which is in the the Bronx so never know there, but you know what I'm saying.) Now has anyone here taken or known someone who has taken any Krav Maga classes and if so would you say that I shouldnt be worried? I feel like from what I have read it teaches rarer scenarios like being held at gun point but also teaches the basics of fighting (punching, grappling, and the stuff to use in smaller more common situations?)
Any info/personal experiences with it would be very helpful.
- 11-02-2007, 05:54 PM
I know a couple of bouncers that train Krav Maga. They say they like it a lot...however based on where they work I doubt they have to use it to often.
- 11-02-2007, 06:37 PM
Force of Green has been doing this, u could ask him for some advice and what not. I would to learn that and have some sound Muay Thai training but no one around does it.
11-02-2007, 06:53 PM
11-02-2007, 06:59 PM
In my opinion, and I say this based on the last few years of doing Reality Based Self Defense, the generic term for street fighting skill study, the watered down civilian form of Krav Maga that is usually taught in the US is better than nothing, but
for starters, a beginner would be better off buying and using a heavy bag and, if possible, a pad and mitts and headgear with a partner or joining a Muay Thai or Cardio Kickboxing gym and doing one's own RBSD oriented workouts there.
I say this because KM classes don't teach what I believe are the most effective simple strikes and counters and , most importantly, don't hit bags and people. One has to hit and be hit to learn RBSD.
You may find a school that does do bag work and spar , but I still have serious doubts about the techniques that KM uses, too intricate and too circular.
Having looked at the works of Tony Blauer, Peyton Quinn, Paul Vunak, and Richard Dimitri, most notably and other lesser known teachers, I believe that Sammy Franco of CFA is the best RBSD instructor/material. Franco calls Krav Maga - "Krap Maga", his opinion alone would steer me away from it, he's the best for the real deal.
His website is sammyfranco.com, great material to use for solo practice and with a partner. I can tell anyone interested how/where to get a lot of his vids on P2P if asked by PM.
11-02-2007, 07:21 PM
As far as Heavy Bag workouts go - don't make the mistake that almost everyone does - using padded gloves everytime.
Padded gloves maintain soft hands and promote bad striking form, do grip exercise to build supportive strength in your hands and hit the bag with just a bare nylon or leather work glove on to prevent knuckle skinning, or not, if you don't care, and don't wrap the wrists. Train like you would fight, you won't have padding and supports on the street. Start slow and light, very soon your hands will harden up and you can hit full power at any angle without pain or injury and you won't lose dexterity or get arthritic, that only happens if you do the tree and rock type striking that the old world warriors did.
11-02-2007, 11:50 PM
I dislike heavy bag work because it teaches people to load up on their shots. And it's also a fairly stationary target so people become flat footed and just throw bombs. Any type of sparring would be far more effective.
My personal opinion is that Krav Maga is crap. Half the things they teach you will get you killed. I went to a few weeks of classes with my ex-gf. The guy knew I trained MMA and had nothing but derogatory things to say about it. He told me if I clinched with him I would get my ass handed to him and while I obliged him to try he didn't want to hurt me.
He decided I could be the aggressor in his weapons demonstrations. He told me to confront him with a gun and he would show the proper disarming procedures. So I got within 6 feet and drew down on him. He couldn't disarm at this distance and instructed me to do it properly but approaching within arm's length. So I approach one arm extended and pushing on his chest while the hand with the gun was held near my chest. Again he couldn't disarm without getting shot. He felt it within his right to demean me saying any retard knows you always put the gun point blank to your victim. I pointed out the gun was a ranged weapon with its advantage being able to cover distances quickly. Dumbfounded he asked me to leave and not return. I complied because I'm not dumb enough to fight in someone else's house. But needless to say this left me with a poor impression of KM. And there's also KM practitioner I've ever run into who claims to be a deadly weapon yet couldn't throw a combo to save their life.
If you're looking for self defense then look into weapons training. The element of surprise or being able to get off first is the key. But there are so many various scenarios that you can't prepare for them all and you're best bet is always avoidance even if you lose face.
11-03-2007, 02:33 AM
Hmmm... not sure what the bashing on Krav Maga is all about. I take Krav Maga (8 hours a week privately) and Taekwondo private lessons 1-3 sessions a week. I took over a year straight of Brazilian Jujitsu a couple years back as well and I also spar with a buddy of mine (boxing) when I go back to NJ.
I like each style for what it is. A few times while defending myself against some moderate attacks from the Master (Taekwondo) I would mistakingly and naturally mix some Krav Maga with Taekwondo and end up almost hurting him with minimal effort.
Ersatz, this pracitioner you're describing... ummm... WTF says, "if you clinch with me you'll get your ass handed to you?" Right then and there I would have said, "Have a nice day sir. You're a little hot-headed for the profession." That's totally unprofessional and to be honest, it's a f*ing shame that it happened to you and the guy sounds like he doesn't know anything worth of $#!+.
I have only trained with people that are friendly and at the same time, sincere and professional about what they do.
I liked Jujitsu, although now being well off with hand and feet attacks, it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for someone skilled in grappling to get close enough to take me down. If it did get to that point and I have failed to defend myself with hand/hand strikes, then I'd atleast know enough about grappling to not get myself subdued by a novice or buy enough time to atleast distance myself for another strike.
Jujitsu is awesome as well. Chances are that if I'm getting into my car or walking back through a dark area with my girl and some people pull a knife on me/us, Krav Maga comes instinctually enough that I'd immediately use the appropriate clearance technique and give a sharp right elbow while passing him with the left foot.... I don't know man, things happen as they happen and no one can really predict.
To be honest with you... also... going and 'checking out' a couple of weeks of Krav Maga classes and having an instructor try to teach you how to disarm a gun from an attacker shows that the guy it's most likely a fake. He may have some cheap MMA or kickboxing aerobic certifications, but teaching a rookie how to disarm a gun will NEVER happen. Those lessons come after about 2 years in most cases, to be quite honest.
There are different styles for different individuals. It's not at all fair to make a generalization like that. I've never had to fight in a real-life situation and there are very few things that anyone could do to make me attack first. Someone would have to have hurt my family or loved one, or be in the process of hurting some other defenseless person. I am VERY confident that the skills I've learned and am learning are more than adequate for killing the unrighteous.
I would use very few techniques of Taekwondo in a real-life defense situation. Krav Maga is the ultimate for this. I would not X-kick or roundhouse someone that's got me cornered and is swinging at me like he's on PCP. In the same token, if I fall to the ground and someone jumps on me and tries subduing me, I will probably use the Jujitsu moves that I know best to get him off of me like and break his wrist so he won't be hitting anybody with his fists.
Krav Maga IMO mixes the best of boxing-type strikes, with similar basic front kicks as Taekwondo (except a different stance and strategy), some similar elbows (although rules don't apply in Krav), and some REALLY effective release techniques.
I have a lot of respect for all of the styles, so I mix what I can. Hell, I try to read up on many of the forms of martial arts to take what philosophy I can to try to adapt it to my own and mix it in...
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I and many others... many, many others find Krav Maga to be one of the best, most logical and realistic fighting styles of our time. If I were to fight my friend, who trains with my Taekwondo instructor and has trained much longer than I have, I would undoubtably use any strike he could throw my way against him and would probably accidentally break a few bones in his face.
Freedom means nothing here.
11-03-2007, 02:37 AM
Oh... and I don't train to be a badass. I really don't know why, because I'm not very intimidating to look at, I don't get messed with whenever and wherever I go out. I don't carry a hostile attitude.
Just like finding the right art is trial and error, finding the right class and/or the right instructor is trial and error as well in some cases.
Freedom means nothing here.
11-03-2007, 05:28 PM
It's a secret martial art, and if you know it you trumph all other martial arts. Just imagine if someone used it in the UFC. Krav manga > everything.
Honestly it's just freestyle fighting: borrowing techniques from other disciplines.
"omg krav manga is teh 1337 mart14l 4rt that pwnz all others!!11"
11-03-2007, 05:31 PM
11-03-2007, 06:34 PM
Accidentally break a few bones in his face...hahaha, that made my day. And yes, this is guy is dreamy.
11-03-2007, 08:36 PM
11-03-2007, 08:45 PM
11-03-2007, 08:47 PM
Jasito, and the rest of the guys on this thread, tune to MyNetworkTV aka UPN in 10 minutes for the live IFL. It's only an hour, but their should be a couple good fights, Radach and Jas' boy Janitor Matyushenko are fighting.
11-03-2007, 08:51 PM
11-03-2007, 08:55 PM
11-03-2007, 09:07 PM
Yeah, I'm just ****ing around. Schoenauer's never had a great ground game from what I remember so he should be in trouble. I never saw the Janitor-Tito but I heard UFC 33 was one of the worst events ever.
11-03-2007, 09:29 PM
Oh, hello. And hi, Force of Green.
I'm American, but I served with honor in the IDF Airborne as a combat soldier, and after I entered the General security course for anyone entering governmental security , such as El Al air marshals, embassy security, and the Prime ministers security.
The course was 3 months, 6 days a week, 12+ hours a day. 6 hours was 'krav', 6 hours was shooting.
In short, yes, it's effective for self-defense as taught here, for killing as taught there for non-civilian applications. I don't believe there are many arts which can take you from 0-60 in less time: in other words, it'll enable you to at best defend yourself, at worst leave a serious mark faster than nearly any other discipline.
It deals with real life situations, it's made for everyone, it distills self-defense down to the simplest of gross movements, ones anyone can do and recall under pressure after long periods of not training.
if you want to make martial arts a lifestyle, or have ten years to devote to a practice, you might be better served elsewhere, keeping in mind you likely won't be able to defend yourself for a very long time, but may come out way ahead in the end.
What are your goals, and how pressing is your need? BTW, KM trains with bags, and they do tons of full contact sparring.
let me know if you have more questions. And keep in mind there are frauds out there.
11-04-2007, 07:24 AM
First off I want to thank everyone for there replies as its really helping me out in my decision.
CNorris ~ I had not seen the Human Weapon on Krav Maga but Ill see if I can find the show in its entirety because those clips were intruding.
Rogue ~ Muay Thai is something I was intrigued by as well. Its solid upright teachings seems it would translate well into all aspects of life (self defense, and just overall health if used in the gym as cardio with bags and such.) The only reason I'm tentative of Muay Thai (at this time) is I will be going to college in 10 months and don't know what would be available at my college as far as tools I could use to continue my training. Also I'll look into Sammy Franco and hit you up about P2p because I wouldn't mind checking out his stuff regardless of what I choose.
Oh and I actually have access to a speed bag, rope ball (don't know real name,) a Muay Thai full bag, and 2 heavy bags at my gym so I have recently begun researching on how to effectively utilize them.
ERS ~ It sounds like you had a run in with a questionable instructor, thankfully at the place I'm considering Krav Maga he offers 2 weeks free to check out the course so I can get a feel if hes legit or not.
Force ~ Thanks again for the information it was very useful.
Poison ~ This is what lead me to Krav Maga. I have limited time before I go to college and am weary of beginning an art such as Muay Thai or the like where I would have 10 or less months to learn and then have to potentially abruptly end my training (and potentially not know what bags or anything I could have on my own to retain/further training.) Krav Maga seems like it would give me a base(I know it takes much longer than 10 months to master Krav) to defend myself and some of the useful strikes from other martial arts. I'm also looking for a course (a krav course) that trains with bags and such so I can incorporate the training in on my own time as well. Also like I mentioned before the first two weeks are free trial of the course so I will be coming back with questions to see what you guys think of the course and if its worth it (he seems like a good guy from the email I sent him but that doesn't mean it will translate into a good teacher. I'm hoping though...)
Krav Maga Federation Schools
Thats the link of the Federations website of the instructor that would be teaching the course.
11-05-2007, 10:18 PM
Everyone will have an opinion. My suggestion is that anything that teaches you some sort of defense is better than nothing at all. With that said, Krav Maga is good for gun disarms but the knife disarms are not.
Something that has not been mentioned that I think is very useful would be Kali.
11-05-2007, 10:51 PM
My experience with KM was negative and it has skewed my opinion. It likely was a McDojo and it's unfair to disclaim the art. But I don't like the way it's marketed and touted as the ultimate self defense system.
The main benefit of a gun is it allows you to keep a distance while still being able to conflict great bodily harm. Thus anyone using it properly will be several yards from you and any disarmament technique will fail miserably. A knife on the other hand requires much closer contact and the KM techniques might be useful.
11-06-2007, 01:22 AM
First off, your experience (while we have no choice but to take your word for it) makes you sound like a goddam liar. You are either making the story up or you got duped by some fraud.
Oh, and what the hell martial art teaches you to fight bullets? Why don't you have Morpheus plug you into the Matrix, because I sure as hell don't know of any bullet-dodging courses here in the real world.
Have you guys, Size or Ersatz, been taught to disarm anything? The ways to disarm a knife are more than effective in Krav Maga. The techniques are not only logical and physically effective, but they actually f*in work. I go over knife blocking and disarming at some point in my training every other day.
Ersatz, what the hell are you talking about, "it's better not to know how to defend yourself than to know how to defend yourself." You are a f*ing retard. Defending yourself is exactly what it is; Defending yourself. Sometimes you can't run away you nitwit. If you are cornered, if you are ambushed, if you are being robbed and there's no exit... you have to act and you must know how to act. You don't take self-defense to go around and try to 'confidently' kick people's ass. You also don't fight unless you have to you dumb ass. Taking any self-defense course isn't for resolving a road rage issue by pulling over and initiating trouble or some crap like that.
I happen to like almost all of the martial arts. They all have a good basis behind them. The fact of the matter is, Krav Maga happens to be one of (if not THE) most practical martial art for modern day defense. That's why I take it. It just so happens that growing up in elementary school through high school, the kids who are purple to black belts in karate were always the ones going to the nurses office with a black eye.
Don't bash a martial art of which you know little to nothing about. That goes to anyone.
Freedom means nothing here.
11-06-2007, 12:24 PM
Dude, settle down. Ersatz explained his reason for believing his opinions and even said his perception may have been skewed. If you want to disagree, cool. No reason to start calling people retards because their opinion differs from yours.
11-06-2007, 01:33 PM
11-06-2007, 01:46 PM
You obviously lack basic comprehension skills. I stated that my bad experience skewed my opinion of KM and that it was an unfair generalization. But as with the typical zealot any disagreement causes the person to launch into ad hominem attacks and other logical fallacies.
Let's review what I said. I stated that the gun disarmament techniques are worthless when the assailant is at a distance. You resort to disambiguation with the Matrix bullet dodging ramblings.
"Defending yourself is exactly what it is; Defending yourself..." Where to begin with this paragraph, hmm well there's false dichotomy, plurium interrogationum, perfect solution fallacy, ad hoc, non sequitur, argumentum ad misericordiam, etc. "If you are being robbed, there is no exit," typical false dichotomy; fight or die. How about comply and hand over the wallet. Of course I'll indulge in a bit of dicto simpliciter and foresee your non sequitur and argumentum ad ignorantium amongst others that the assailant will not stop until you are physically harmed. The rest is just typical disambiguation.
As for your illustration of the purple and black belts with black eyes, is the implication it's the fault of the art? Perhaps, once again it stems from the false confidence that led them to escalate the situation that could normally have been adverted. This bravado has led to the demise of people including pro fighters who escalated the matter whereas the layman or coward didn't and is still alive.
11-06-2007, 01:56 PM
And i know that this art doesnt do disarming (at least not at lower levels) but what about Jun fan / Jeet Kun Do? I picked up a lot in the little time i had available to lean JKD that I've used and would be able to use in needed situations.
11-06-2007, 02:09 PM
11-06-2007, 02:13 PM
To know what to do in inevitable situations of conflicted confrontation is paramount for survival. I will agree with you in a few sectors of this paradigm. I agree tha verbal skills can and should be employed as a first line of defense. I am a huge fan of 'Verbal Judo'.
As far as dodging bullets and fighting armed perpetrators, there is not a self-defense that I know of that will teach you to become immune to projectile attacks.
Freedom means nothing here.
11-06-2007, 07:27 PM
I think one of Ersatz's points was that the half speed light or no impact attacks and counters versus attackers running choregraphed moves that a person will be taught and hardly practices in many self defense classes breeds a dangerous level of false confidence.
11-06-2007, 08:20 PM
11-06-2007, 08:56 PM
We must know two things to settle this dispute:
1. Who would win in a fight, Ersatz or Force?
2. Who has a larger penis?
11-06-2007, 09:30 PM
I'll let you figure out the johnson size question. I've got to go with FoG in a fight, he breaks bones in peoples faces on accident, imagine what he'll do on purpose
11-06-2007, 09:52 PM
11-07-2007, 02:08 AM
2. Do you really want to find that out?
My issue with martial arts is that some market it in a appeal to your fears. What if such and such scenario were to take place, you need to be able to defend yourself. But rarely do they teach other methods to avoid confrontations, namely the verbal judo you refer to. So IMO it does instill a false sense of belief that you will be able to handle these situations. But it does seem that FoG had an overwhelming air of confidence brought on by his training. Just don't act like Lee Murray or even Gong and you should be fine though.
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