- 08-01-2007, 09:48 AM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
- 08-01-2007, 09:59 AM
- 08-01-2007, 10:01 AM
I have tried to incorporate splicers, but they are very difficult to get w/o a gi after about 2 minutes of rolling.M.Ed. Ex Phys
08-01-2007, 10:04 AM
08-01-2007, 10:08 AM
Triangle's seem to be the most effective submission in no GI. I'd suggest working on different setups for the triangle. Like failed armbar to triangle transitions. There is also the reverse triangle.
08-01-2007, 10:09 AM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
08-01-2007, 10:10 AM
08-01-2007, 10:14 AM
What about the infamous gogoplata, ever try that?
08-01-2007, 10:15 AM
08-01-2007, 11:17 AM
It's hard to pull off a sub when people muscle the hell out of you and keep there base. The good news is that they tire themselves out eventually.
08-01-2007, 12:32 PM
The darce sub was pretty sick! I would like to see him pull it off while the other guy was fighting. Good stuff.
08-01-2007, 12:41 PM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
08-01-2007, 01:14 PM
- 6'0" 225 lbs.
- Join Date
- May 2004
- Rep Power
How about the Cobra Hold? Is that practical?
08-01-2007, 01:25 PM
08-01-2007, 01:27 PM
08-01-2007, 02:49 PM
Have you looked a any leg/ankle submissions? I've noticed that lots of guys overlook these and the current game most guys have right now leaves them wide open for it (at some point at least). One of the reason I think most people are neglecting these b/c they are not a easy to lock. However, if you've ever been on the receiving end you'll see a whole new world of pain.
08-01-2007, 02:54 PM
08-01-2007, 03:41 PM
08-01-2007, 03:43 PM
08-01-2007, 04:07 PM
Not being a part of BJJ is why I thing they are wide open right now. Most of your MMA guys are getting their ground training from BJJ guys and they haven't seen them that much. Add a couple of the easier, faster ones to your tool set... ones that you can set up while he's on his back and you're standing (like after you stand up out of his guard) and I think you'd be surprised how often you can get it. They are just not expecting it.
08-01-2007, 08:24 PM
I agree that leg subs are underused, but most are really dangerous to the person going for the sub. You usually give up position, and you need both arms to secure it, which leaves you open to getting pounded. Remember Pe De Pano vs. Arlovski? I've seen other examples too. A kid I trained with was pretty much dominating a fight. He went for a leg lock, the other guy got up and started unloading, and my teammate almost got TKO'd. I would only go for it during a good scramble. If the other guy isn't flat on his back, you could be in trouble.
I do, however, think that the kneebar has a good balance of risk to reward. And you can easily transition to a nice toehold if you don't get the kneebar.
08-01-2007, 10:28 PM
I don't know what it is called, but I know a nice North/South choke that works well from a guillotine escape. I'll try to describe it.
If you are caught in a standing guillotine...(sorry, I'm watching fight girls for the first time. Are the Thai chicks that bad, or are they taking dives?)...anyway, if you can finish the takedown or he pulls guard, and you can escape to side control on the opposite side of where he has the guillotine, try to dig your chin into his ribs and start working your way toward N/S. If you get there, slide one arm under his neck and grab the forearm on the other arm. Your arms become like a scissor. Dig your fist into his aorta. Pull back with your upper back/traps to increase pressure. If your raise up a bit, you increase it even more, as your arms close like scissors.
You can use this choke from any position, though it works better in some. You can even do it when you have full guard. Break his posture and lock it up. If he tries to pull up out of it, he will just increase the pressure for you. If he stays low, you have to rely on your arms. It will wear him out, if not slowly choke him out if he stays down. He will definitely waste a ton of energy trying to escape, so even if he gets out, he'll be worn, and you don't have to put much energy into it.
It's one of those chokes that can sneak up on the guy, b/c you don't feel too much pressure b/c it is just a blood choke with no extreme discomfort.
08-02-2007, 12:51 AM
Kneebars are quite difficult to pull off but you can transition to ankle or foot locks. Still not worth it though IMO. Leg subs aren't used too often because they are fairly easy to escape and you can take a lot of punishment trying to get one.
While unusual subs look impressive they just aren't worth it. Better off perfecting your armbar, triangle, kimura and guillotine chokes.
08-02-2007, 09:25 AM
Guys this is off the subject somewhat, but I've got a question for you experienced fighters. I love watching good submissions in competitions, but are submissions practical and/or effective in confrontations outside of the ring or octagon meaning street fights?
08-02-2007, 09:56 AM
I am not a fighter, I just train, and I haven't been in a street fight since I was a teenager, so I don't really know, but I can tell you that when I roll with my friends I smoke them. One buddy has about 70lbs on me, was in the military, and is a cop, so he's done a ton of hand-to-hand training. He is heavy if he gets on top, but I pretty much schooled him. The only thing I would say is a lot of bottom subs would be dangerous on pavement because you can get slammed from an armbar or choke. A kimura from the bottom would probably work well. Top position would work very well. I also imagine a lot of guys would give up their back without thinking and would be very susceptible to the RNC.
08-02-2007, 11:08 AM
- 6'0" 225 lbs.
- Join Date
- May 2004
- Rep Power
08-02-2007, 04:31 PM
Grappling and on-the-ground subs work just fine as long as you're 100% sure you're in a controlled environment and will not get a boot or beer bottle to the head. However, in reality you need to be able to pull it off really, really quickly and take your attacker out, not submit him.
I'm from the school of, "If I've got to fight (outside of the ring/mat) someone is going to get seriously injured." I train JKD and most of the more civilized, experienced folks who come in are appaled as how unfair we train. The first day I always tell them (folks with experience) to not be surprised if I bite, eye gouge, fish hook, head butt or put them in a face lock where they think I might break their neck when we roll. Most of them are cool with it but they all agree that it would never go over at a BJJ or Judo school.
At the end of the day it comes down to this... MMA is a sport and you have to "play by the rules", fighting for your life is not a sport and you do whatever you have to in order to get out alive. You perform like you train.
08-02-2007, 06:06 PM
That's why you need to have an all around game, in the real world.
If your at a bar or shooting pool with your g.f. I wouldn't want to go to the ground. Where a friend could sucker punch you.
If you can kick and punch, I think most trained guys can take on two guys that don't know how to fight.
08-02-2007, 11:25 PM
"Real world" fights are breed until themselves and you can't really ever be prepared for them. There's entirely too many variables to ever predict any outcome or train for every situation. You can get sucker punched or fight multiple assailants standing or on the ground. If you have to pull guard I would opt to just throw downward elbows to your opponents head, then maybe go for a sub. But the problem with subs is how far do you go? You pop his shoulder, elbow or ankle but will that take the fight out of him? Should you continue to hit him into unconsciousness? My feeling is if you're going to go for a sub it should be a choke otehrwise be prepared to pound the guy into unconsciousness.
08-03-2007, 08:33 AM
In a street situation, if you're going to use JJ, you definitely need to pop the shoulder/elbow/knee (hey, a heelhook could happen on the street ), but I agree that a choke would be ideal, b/c you can put him to sleep, he won't know what happened, and you are less likely to avoid potential legal problems b/c chokes don't really hurt people, they just neutralize them.
That is true, but you leave your face somewhat exposed if you dedicate an arm to securing his leg. You can grab for a second though, as he tries to get up.That's why you grab the guy's ankle /calf to prevent him from rising up and slamming you.
08-03-2007, 10:55 AM
Very interesting opinions and they all make since. Rodja, you are obviously experencied, what's your opinion? Sorry for the hi-jack by the way.
08-03-2007, 11:56 AM
Chokes would be good idea or armbars from the top or a kimura. Any top submission is a good idea, but bottom subs are a little riskier.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
08-03-2007, 12:00 PM
You'd probably want to sweep someone in a real world situation. There are alot of quick and easy to execute sweeps that would be effective. From that position G&P.
If you clinch with them, execute a takedown, like a hiptoss or double/single leg variation. Keep it simple.
08-03-2007, 12:07 PM
08-03-2007, 02:25 PM
I actually saw a guillotine choke in a bar fight and it seemed to work. The only thing was that it was a one on one fight and none of the friends interferred which as we all know isn't too common in a bar fight. Also it was behind a fence next to the bar so there was an open field.
08-03-2007, 04:44 PM
08-06-2007, 02:49 PM
If you can get a guillotine in, then you can get the nogeria choke in, just pull them down to the ground.
08-06-2007, 08:52 PM
rodja, leg locks in a MMA Fight = bad idea. almost everyone knows the escapes and i think almost every attempt leads to a loss of position and usually taking some punishment fom it. I say keep it simple and for every submission plan on them blocking and what your counter will be to that block.
Bottom position I think the rubber guard is higfhly under used and it ties up your opponent and limits his G&P and has some nice subs and reversals. Trangle, to omaplata/omaplata sweep to back control to clock choke.
new subs are great but the basics are there because they work. I know you know but remember its all about the transition from one to the next that makes it work. Good luck my brutha. Oh yea theres one submission that stands above the rest.......... CONDITIONING!
08-09-2007, 12:43 PM
I have never fought in anytype of MMA event.
I wanted too, but too many injuries, anyways I still train at Texas Karate, and have a blue belt.
I think in Real World fighting it would be better to use a submission, because you can excute it faster, i've choked, been chocked, and watched on UFC people be chocked. It can take sometime to chocke someone out.
And your hoping that none of his friends hits you in the back of the head with a bottle.
I want to start training with staff fighting, because all bars mostly have a pool table, which you can use the pool stick, as a staff, and as your weapon
08-09-2007, 05:11 PM
CTAMA). You can get some really good Filipino stick training there. Perfect for any pool hall or dive bar.
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