Now that the Merger is Official...

[Rodja]

I have been wondering who will be the first to lose in one of the "superfights". The 2 locks are GSP and Fedor, obviously, but I think that Chuck will be the first to be exposed. There are at least 5 fighters that either would be favored or only a slight underdog.

Wandy - Yes, he is last his last 2 fights, but one was to Crocop and the other was to Hendo while he had strep. His aggressiveness will be too much for Chuck to handle.

Shogun - Don't need to elaborate here.

Arona - With his mix of leg kicks and outstanding grappling (plus elbows now), he will win via decision

Overeem - Watch the first fight; add in some conditioning and Chuck would have been asleep

and my dark horse...

Nakamura - I have always been a fan of KazNak and his only losses the past few years have been to Wandy, Shogun, and Barnett. If he can beat Stefan Leko, a great K-1 kickboxer, by TKO, then he could easily do the same to Chuck.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I agree with pretty much everything said there, and would add I think Hendo himself would be problematic to Chuck.

I agree with those fighters, not based solely on talent, but more on styles. Arona, especially, because of his viscous leg kicks (combined with his power), is something Chuck has not faced. Last time I saw a leg-kick thrown on Chuck, in fact, was Tito, and those were weak. Taking out a counter punchers leg's seriously inhibits their ability to retreat, and generate power moving backwards.

EDIT: I also think that of all the fighters listed there, well besides maybe Shogun, that Arona would make the best use of the Cage against Chuck.

 

[Alexander]

I'm gonna have to agree with both of you. Chuck is extemely over-rated in my book. He's been spoon fed wrestlers to cater to his style, due to Dana. I may get flamed for this, but not only do I think the aforementioned fighters would beat Chuck, there are a few I'd add to that list.

IMO Manhoeff would dominate Chuck standing. Chuck's only chance would be to take Melvin down, and Melvin's TD defense has improved drastically.

I see Yoshida taking some hard shots and then subbing Chuck. There's always a chance Chuck could land one of his looping partially lucky KO shots on Yoshi, but I would take Yoshi if I were to bet.

If Vera were to drop down to 205, which he easily could, he would take care of Chuck too. Chuck would stand with Vera and he would get dropped most likely.

There are plenty of others that would have a better then 50% chance of beating Chuck. I think Chuck is a good fighter, but he's nothing special. Hopefully Chuck will stick around for at least 5 more fights, and face some strikers, so we can see what he is really about.

 

[Sir Savage]

There are several Pride guys who would absolutely smash Liddell- and they're not even top Pride guys.

Take Yoshida, for example. Guy would grab Liddell by his mooseknuckle, drop him on his head, and snap his arm into several pieces.

Ditto for Dan Henderson.

Liddell would have no answer for Minowa "the real pro wrestler". Minowa would cartwheel kick Liddell repeatedly, slowly melting the Iceman to nothingness. What can Liddell do? Minowa is just too unorthodox for him.

Hell, even Zulu could take him. Zulu would just f*ckin' sit on the no-skillset Liddell and make him wish for the sweet release of death.

But death won't come. Only the big ass of Zulu.

 

[Rogue Drone]

Wow, some bad Pride Bias here and not giving the Iceman his due, Chuck's counterpunching power and sprawl would take out most of the guys on y'alls lists.

You guys need to seriously reevaluate some of these "greats", your bias against the UFC is skewing your vision.

 

[Alexander]

I'd love to hear who on our lists you think Chuck would defeat. Please entertain me.

 

[Sir Savage]

How do you counter punch a cartwheel kick, though?

And how can you counter punch when you're being arm-barred by the great judoka Yoshida?

Furthermore, how do you counter punch the enormous ass of Zulu? Liddell's punches would simply be absorbed by the gelatinous mass of his ass, the kinetic energy dispersed by the shock-absorbing globs.

Let's face it- Liddell can't hang with even the lower echelon of Pride fighters. Maybe put him in with some of the lighter guys to see if he can use his size to any significant degree, but even then, I think he's in for some trouble.

Aoki, for example, would have a field day with Liddell. He would wrap Liddell up like a damn octopus and submit him via toe hold. Aoki's subs are just that good.

The vast majority of Pride's fighters would be able to beat Liddell soundly.

 

[Sir Savage]

Before I sign off for the night, let me just pose this question to y'all-

Given that Liddell is no match for 90% of the Pride guys, who would you like to see him fight in Shooto or DEEP? Maybe now that the Fertittas own Pride, which had a previous relationship with these two organizations, they can find some talent in these "minor leagues" on Chuck's low level for him to fight.

 

[Rogue Drone]

Now you're just talking crazy, this stuff is way over the top wrong.

Chuck with a nose full of blow and a few shots of courage could at least handle "The Punk" Minowa.

 

[Alexander]

Before I sign off for the night, let me just pose this question to y'all-

Given that Liddell is no match for 90% of the Pride guys, who would you like to see him fight in Shooto or DEEP? Maybe now that the Fertittas own Pride, which had a previous relationship with these two organizations, they can find some talent in these "minor leagues" on Chuck's low level for him to fight.

Ex-Deep champ Ryo Chonan and Chuck would be a nice fight. Look at how well Chonan did with Anderson Silva. Chuck would lose by decision or submission.

I just can't believe people think Chuck is so great. He's really just a paper champion. Hell, I could probably be HW champ if I had Dana manipulating the game.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Wow, some bad Pride Bias here and not giving the Iceman his due, Chuck's counterpunching power and sprawl would take out most of the guys on y'alls lists.

You guys need to seriously reevaluate some of these "greats", your bias against the UFC is skewing your vision.

I think the list Rodja proposed is very reasonable (w/ Hendo added to the list). For the most part, Chuck has not faced a competent striker. You could make a case the last competent striker he did face was 'Page, and he lost. IMO, it's far easier to counter-punch, when your opponent does not know how to punch in the first place.

The reason why I stuck with Arona, is if you re-watch the Tito-Chuck fight, Tito had begun a nice welt on Chuck's leg that seemed to slow him down nicely. Slap somebody like an Arona in there, who utilizes chop kicks beautifully, add in killer grappling ability, and you have a recipe for disaster for Liddell.

I think Wandy/Chuck would still be a very close decision, and I think Shogun would be a definite win for Rua.

EDIT: To add, Chuck's checks on were also pretty sloppy in that Tito fight. Just a thought.

 

[jas123]

I could definately see some of the guys you picked beating Chuck, Rodja.

I think Chuck's chin is overrated too. Guys like Tito, Horn, and Randy (although his overhand right looked impressive againtst Sylvia) don't have that much power in their hands. Mezger and Rampage both drolpped Chuck and hell Mezger wasn't really known for his power either.

 

[Beowulf]

Agreed on Nakamura. He hung tough with Shogun. Chuck is totally untested on the ground. Chuck's teste sachel hitchhikers drool on and on about his TD defense, but sprawling is worthless against the judoka's lethal throws. I see Nakamura taking a decision or GnPing Chuck back into the contenders' class.

If Overeem had a gas tank I'd like to see him rematch Chuck. Chuck had a tough time in PRIDE.

I think Pawel Nastula could also take Chuck's crown. I believe he weighed in around 227, which is probably around Chuck's natural weight. He could cut or Chuck could move up. I'd like to see Chuck escape from an Olympic Gold Medalist. Too bad about the nandrolene incident; this does not look like a possibility any more.

 

[Rogue Drone]

Liddell is not overrated, well, yes he is by those in the UFC fanbase who don't know enough, he's undertested since he has'nt matched up with the Pride of Pride, skilled multifaceted fighters that can match and potentially beat him in many ways.

The man is hard to close on without catching one of his power hooks, those are very powerful shots for a MMA LHW and he eludes takedown attempts and getting worked on the ground very well.

He may only be a two trick pony, but he's a very adept with those two tricks, Cro Cop was'nt a whole lot different until he put some GNP into his game, good enough then to make it to a title fight with Fedor. Ok, so Mirko could kick, but the basic point remains, not well rounded but damn good with his narrower skillset.

I'm not even going to address Lidell v guys like Zulu or Minowa, other than to say he would back around and away from those two and hammer them out. Get off the bottle and/or pipe before monkey slapping the Keyboard, SS. Oh, and WTF?! is a Mooseknuckle?

Question - if Rampage looks good, like Pre-Wandy good, but Liddell handles him well, where does that put The Iceman in y'alls assesment?

 

[Beowulf]

Vernon was definitely impressive in that match, not so much for his offense, but for his survival. It definitely looked suspicious, but I'm guessing he just had enough at that point. The shot connected cleanly, but had very little distance on it. It was nothing compared to many of the shots he had taken earlier in the fight--hence the appearance of a dive.

 

[Rogue Drone]

I'm suprised you guys did'nt say that Lidell only wins by deliberating poking people in the eye.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Liddell is not overrated, well, yes he is by those in the UFC fanbase who don't enough, he's undertested since he has'nt matched up with the Pride of Pride, skilled multifaceted fighters that can match and potentially beat him in many ways.

The man is hard to close on without catching one of his power hooks, those are very powerful shots for a MMA LHW and he eludes takedown attempts and getting worked on the ground very well.

He may only be a two trick pony, but he's a very adept with those two tricks, Cro Cop was'nt a whole lot different until he put some GNP into his game, good enough then to make it to a title fight with Fedor. Ok, so Mirko could kick, but the basic point remains, not well rounded but damn good with his narrower skillset.

I'm not even going to address Lidell v guys like Zulu or Minowa, other than to say he would back around and away from those two and hammer them out. Get off the bottle and/or pipe before monkey slapping the Keyboard, SS. Oh, and WTF?! is a Mooseknuckle?

Question - if Rampage looks good, like Pre-Wandy good, but Liddell handles him well, where does that put The Iceman in y'alls assesment?

If 'Page looks pre-chuteboxe beatdown good, then I will reevaluate Chuck's stance. Even then, I would still be inclined to choose Shogun over Chuck any day of the week.

I'm not saying he is horrible by any means, just agreeing with Rodja that there are several Pride fighters who could beat Chuck, or, give him very serious trouble.

He is hard to close on, but we haven't really seen him face someone recently who was adept enough to create openings with competent striking. The last person to really do that to him was Couture who just dirty boxed him into a clinch.

 

[ugab37]

Damn guys, keep this up. Theres some interesting conversation in here.:duel:

 

[size]

I am not a big Liddell fan but he has beaten the fighters that have been presented to him. He does not control he fighters that he faces so using this against him is not fair. That said, I do believe there are numerous fighters that could beat Liddell so it will be fun to watch in the future.

I think fighters like Arona and Shogun would give Liddell many problems. Yoshida would have to fight without his Gi so I wonder how that will effect him.

 

[Bionic]

Oh, and WTF?! is a Mooseknuckle?

Moose-knuckle is the male equivalent of camel-toe. HEHEHE! And I agree, VERY good discussion going on in here!!!

 

[jas123]

Liddell is not overrated, well, yes he is by those in the UFC fanbase who don't know enough, he's undertested since he has'nt matched up with the Pride of Pride, skilled multifaceted fighters that can match and potentially beat him in many ways.

The man is hard to close on without catching one of his power hooks, those are very powerful shots for a MMA LHW and he eludes takedown attempts and getting worked on the ground very well.

He may only be a two trick pony, but he's a very adept with those two tricks, Cro Cop was'nt a whole lot different until he put some GNP into his game, good enough then to make it to a title fight with Fedor. Ok, so Mirko could kick, but the basic point remains, not well rounded but damn good with his narrower skillset.

I'm not even going to address Lidell v guys like Zulu or Minowa, other than to say he would back around and away from those two and hammer them out. Get off the bottle and/or pipe before monkey slapping the Keyboard, SS. Oh, and WTF?! is a Mooseknuckle?

Question - if Rampage looks good, like Pre-Wandy good, but Liddell handles him well, where does that put The Iceman in y'alls assesment?

Decent evaluation of the Iceman, but I think you'd be better off restricting your analyses to K-1 fighters. You know your kickboxing/standup game and have some legit cred in competition, but sorry this is MMA. Not the same thing. Maybe if there's an "I'm out of my element" thread, you and CNorris can post in it.

 

[exnihilo]

Honestly, there are only two people in his weight class I would put money on against chuck:

Shogun: This guy is a no brainer, he's just good at everything and a smart fighter to boot.
Arona: Here is the man who could put Chuck on his back and keep him there.

Unfortunately I think Wanderlei has lost his edge. Dan Henderson just doesn't match up well, I think he'd get caught. Brandon Vera at 205 would be a good matchup, I think he'd take it.

 

[Rogue Drone]

Decent evaluation of the Iceman, but I think you'd be better off restricting your analyses to K-1 fighters. You know your kickboxing/standup game and have some legit cred in competition, but sorry this is MMA. Not the same thing. Maybe if there's an "I'm out of my element" thread, you and CNorris can post in it.

I'll readily admit to understanding Standup far better than Groundwork, and I have at least a decent knowledge of general athleticism and the psychology of competition from direct experience, but, please, no, don't tar me with the CNorris brush, he's a UFC Fanboy who's not sophisticated enough to appreciate the substance and style that has made Pride the better organization, so far.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I'll readily admit to understanding Standup far better than Groundwork, and I have at least a decent knowledge of general athleticism and the psychology of competition from direct experience, but, please, no, don't tar me with the CNorris brush, he's a UFC Fanboy who's not sophisticated enough to appreciate the substance and style that has made Pride the better organization, so far.

Yeah, that might have gone too far in labeling Rogue as CNorris-esque

 

[brass monkey]

Yeah, that might have gone too far in labeling Rogue as CNorris-esque

agreed low blow RD took it with class though

 

[Mulletsoldier]

agreed low blow RD took it with class though

It's because he's old and was around when civility was still kicking.

Seriously though, I don't think it's any fluke that RD has faired so well in the super-comps. The guy knows his stuff.

 

[CNorris]

Before I sign off for the night, let me just pose this question to y'all-

Given that Liddell is no match for 90% of the Pride guys, who would you like to see him fight in Shooto or DEEP? Maybe now that the Fertittas own Pride, which had a previous relationship with these two organizations, they can find some talent in these "minor leagues" on Chuck's low level for him to fight.

Woaahhhhh! Back off there King of all Pride fanboys. No match for 90% of Pride guys ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!
:icon_lol:

I dont even need to counter that nonsense.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Just as a quick debriefing (as in informative rundown, not what Beo., tried to do to me last week before I shut him down) here in the MMA forum we like to use practical puncuation and keep a minimum on retarded smilies.

Thank-you for your patronage.

 

[Sir Savage]

Woaahhhhh! Back off there King of all Pride fanboys. No match for 90% of Pride guys ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!
:icon_lol:

I dont even need to counter that nonsense.

Word on the street is that Liddell entered the 205 tournament once and barely even made it out of the first round.

I'm just saying...

 

[Rodja]

Word on the street is that Liddell entered the 205 tournament once and barely even made it out of the first round.

I'm just saying...

Yes, he did did quite beaten down. Hell, even against Guy Mezger, he was flash KO'ed, but Mezger didn't keep the pressure on and he recovered. Oh, what Shogun would be able to do...

 

[exnihilo]

Yes, he did did quite beaten down. Hell, even against Guy Mezger, he was flash KO'ed, but Mezger didn't keep the pressure on and he recovered. Oh, what Shogun would be able to do...

Not that I think Liddell is the best, but remember that Fedor got flash KO'd against Fujita

 

[Alexander]

Not that I think Liddell is the best, but remember that Fedor got flash KO'd against Fujita

That was a somewhat "lucky" shot from Fujita. Mezger was having his way with Chuck in that first 10min round. Doesn't really matter though, if you get dropped, you get dropped.

 

[Rodja]

Not that I think Liddell is the best, but remember that Fedor got flash KO'd against Fujita

Fedor was wobbled, but he never hit the canvas; Chuck was down on the canvas. I see your point, though.

 

[Alexander]

Forgot he never went down. I don't know if I've ever seen a dance like Fedor performed in that fight.

 

[exnihilo]

Forgot he never went down. I don't know if I've ever seen a dance like Fedor performed in that fight.

he got knocked out, and recovered, without falling. Just another part of what makes him the best

 

[jas123]

There was a thread on Sherdog once about what major fighter had never been dropped by strikes. I think Fedor was the only one.

 

[Rodja]

There was a thread on Sherdog once about what major fighter had never been dropped by strikes. I think Fedor was the only one.

Hunt
BJ Penn
GSP

 

[jas123]

That's right, BJ and I think GSP were there, too. If you count Hunt's K-1 fights, he's been knocked down by at least CC and JLB. But in MMA no one.

 

[exnihilo]

who cares who's never been dropped. Anyone can get hit while they're off balance. What matters is who's never been rocked...

Hunt has been knocked down but I've never seen him rocked. Fedor has never been knocked down but he's been rocked. *shrug*

 

[jas123]

who cares who's never been dropped. Anyone can get hit while they're off balance. What matters is who's never been rocked...

Hunt has been knocked down but I've never seen him rocked. Fedor has never been knocked down but he's been rocked. *shrug*

:nutkick: I care ex, I care. Alright, I see your point. Hunt was rocked to all hell against JLB in their 2nd or 3rd fight. He was saved by the bell and threw in the towel or he would have been KOed most likely (credits Roguendorf for the info).