My take on MMA and the direction it's going
- 11-08-2006, 03:44 PM
My take on MMA and the direction it's going
hello guys, I am currently a rokudan (6th degree) black belt in kempo, aikijutsu, jujutsu, which are traditional japanese styles, after seeing a few royce gracie videos touting why his martial art is the "best" in the world, and he "proves" this by defeating several kempo and other traditional martial arts practitioners, to the average person who is not affiliated with traditional martial arts, that would be most of the ufc guys and pretty much anyone else, it looks like he beat them fair and square, yes the gracie's style is superior, WHEN THESE OTHER PRACTITIONERS HAVE TO PLAY BY THE GRACIE"S RULES, the rules in the cage do not apply to the street, and having a fight with no rules is illegal, so will people quit saying that BJJ and mma guys are martial artists, yes these guys are TREMENDOUS athletes and i like to watch it, but they are not made to defend themselves in a street fight 99% of all the techniques i know are illegal, where 100% of gracie's techniques are allowed in the ring i guarantee you if he fought a true traditional martial arts practitioner with no rules he would not have a chance nor would any other person who fights using mma rules
- 11-08-2006, 03:56 PM
Plenty of techniques are illegal in MMA, this is very ture. It is so because MMA is "sport fighting". "Sport fighting" is vastly different than fighting for your life or safety and I hope most individuals recognize this. For instance, one rarely sees any JKD or Kali techniques in MMA b/c some of it would be illegal yet very effective.
There is no one best technique, anyone who believes this is wrong. The reason being is that each situation is unique. In one situation where one technique may excel, another may fail.
Last edited by size; 11-08-2006 at 04:17 PM.
11-08-2006, 04:02 PM
How can you not call them martial artists? Within each martial art, there are tournaments with rules. Royce Gracie is not a true mixed martial artists b/c he relies solely on BJJ in his fights. To say that these fighters are not martial artists is very disrespectful and to insinuate that training MMA is not applicable to the street is asinine.Originally Posted by FreakNasty22
11-08-2006, 04:08 PM
This is just incorrect. I have watched experienced practitioners of both Taekwondo and Kempo get utterly overwhelmed by less experienced mma practioners. However, even if your claim was true, it is irrelevant b/c MMA is sport fighting which follows rules.Originally Posted by FreakNasty22
11-08-2006, 04:22 PM
5th degree in a more traditional TKD (learned in 'Nam from ROK Marines) & various low levels in JKD/Kali/Judo/Silat.
Any contest is going to have rules that favor a particular style/system/organization.
Technically the Gracie's were fighting under resterictions also. No breaking arms, elbows, legs, knees, neck chokes that are life threatening etc.
We are not perticipating in a blood bath like the Roman arenas. Personally I am glad we don't.
All sprts have the potential for injury. If you want real take the pads off of football players, take the gloves off of boxers and allow low punches.
This is a debate that goes back so long that it is tired.
11-08-2006, 05:22 PM
well I respect your opinion, but I don't agree. I train under Carlson Gracie, probably the best jiu-jitsu school out there. We also learn other forms of martial arts as well to incorporate the true MMA style. But here is a little background that you might not have realized. The Gracies have had an open challenge to anyone who wanted to fight them since the turn of the 20th century. That is 100 years of total dominance in the martial arts world. Carlson Sr. fought in ~600 fights and I don't know of any losses. And these were no holds barred, bare fisted fights. There is much heritage and pride in Gracie jiu-jitsu. And you can not argue the fact that every successful MMA fighter today, has some knowledge of BJJ. For me, I consider that the FOUNDATION of my arsenal. I can agree with you to one extent, there is no ONE best martial arts style. The best fighters in the world incorporate multiple styles, and ADAPT to their opponents and exploit their weaknesses.Originally Posted by FreakNasty22
11-08-2006, 05:29 PM
another thing i wanted to point out i am not trying to say any certain style is better than others, i am not claiming to be a superior fighter, my goal, in training for self defense is to survive in any situation that i get put in no matter what it might be. as for the gracies and their undefeated challenges, i know as a martial artist coming from a traditional background that we are not encouraged to start a fight or even try to compete in anything that has rules our sole objective is to learn how to defend ourselves outside of sport, plain and simple, now i am not disrespecting mma at all, i guess what i'm trying to say is that the gracies are very very cocky and all the taped matches i've seen in and outside the ring involve rules, obviously, because someone would have used one of the many pressure points or sensitive areas on the body against him, there are no codes of "chivalry" in my fighting style, and i will avoid a fight at all costs, also any person who is a true martial arts master would not challenge another to a fight, if they are based in the "self-defense" only style, now i do agree than in the ring BJJ is probably the best style you can study, although i'm def. not an expert on the ring
11-08-2006, 05:32 PM
i guess what i'm trying to say also, you cannot be an mma fighter and train to be the best on the street, and obviously you cannot be a self-defense only fighter and get in the ring, it's just not possible, you have to pick and choose which one you want to be, i was introduced to japanese martial arts at 5, where if i were introduced to martial arts now i would probably be a ufc guy, i guess i'm just so set in my ways, but i'll keep an open mind to what you guys have to say
11-10-2006, 01:27 PM
I'm sorry. No disprespect intended but was there a point to all of this? Because if there was, I'm pretty sure I missed it.
11-10-2006, 03:07 PM
The fact is Gracie or Brazilian jiu-jitsu was largely formulated for street fighting. The sport of MMA just like TMA has rules in place to prevent significant harm or maiming of opponents in competitive events. But this is doesn't mean that practioneers don't also practice techniques outside of the rules. If you've attended any Gracie academy they will teach you techniques for the street as well. To help promote their art it was common for Gracie's to issue open challenges to any rival martial artist in a vale-tudo(anything goes) fight. This usually took place in the gym but there were typically no weight or time limits or any otehr rules for that matter. Now granted this isn't quite a street fight but nonetheless proved the legitimacy of their art given an open rule set.
In a street fight/self defense situation there are too many variables to account for to draw any conclusions.
11-10-2006, 04:40 PM
11-14-2006, 12:54 AM
I myself have studied a few traditional martial arts such as TKD and Hapkido. For the most part these are basically defensive martial arts. About six years ago I got jumped while taking a piss in a porta potty. During this whole experience I got hit in the temples and head pretty hard quite a bit. At this point my self defense and survival skills kicked in and I fortunately walked out of the situation. (This is another story)
After experiencing what it was like getting jumped I just wanted to improve on what I knew. I started BJJ with some boxing, wrestling and muay thai at my local MMA school. Before this I felt fairly confident with my skills. (I had just survived getting jumped) I thought I knew how to submit or KO someone. (I was definately wrong) No matter the sparring situation I would get owned very quickly! I would get leg kicked, taken down and tapped out at will. NONE of my former techniques worked against MMA style fighting. I have also seen this happen with many other traditional martial artists as well. The MAIN difference is that traditional martial artists don't train to get hit, they mostly rely on the one punch theory and never experience good sparring contact. On the other hand most MMA, grapplers, boxers and Thai boxers get use to contact and resistance. To be a truly effective fighter you gotta get hit or feel a submission!
Comparing my current self to my old fighting self is no contest. If I was in that EXACT same situation from when I got jumped the guy would have been seriously injured. But you never know when someone is going to stab you. My overall point is that if you study martial arts don't be close minded! I am actually thinking of studying some good weapon defense techniques. Combining martial arts was BRUCE LEE'S dream, he was not a passivist when it came to accepting a challenge. IMO BRUCE was the first MMA fighter.
11-14-2006, 05:45 PM
What a troll. Traditional martial arts practitioners don't practice "MMA illegal techniques" either - kind of hard to spar/drill eye gouging, groin attacks, etc. So what this comes down to is that you say you can walk the walk, but MMA trained athletes are just as well trained to pull this sort of **** as you are. Now, there are some schools out there that focus on drilling street lethal techniques pretty much exclusively using redman suits/etc and I wouldn't **** with those guys, but feel free to bring on all the TMA practitioners you want.
11-14-2006, 05:57 PM
Any and every sport has made huge athletic progress, look at nfl lineman, world strongest man competitors, hockey, weightlifting, golf, soccer, olympians. Limits are means to be broken as evolution has proven. The best fighter today isnt the best fighter tommorow, and the media keeps bringing these freaks out of their basements to be the best the world has to offer. Nowadays the options are endless depending on what interests you, if you wanna go smash skulls mma offers that to you. Gracie is a pioneer, a legend, but i dont like his chances against, younger, stronger, more well rounded fighters who can knock you out with any punch.
11-15-2006, 08:10 PM
From your statement I feel u are very ignorant. Tell u what challenge a guy to a no rules fight and see how fast you can get out of range from his bullets.
Of course there are different rules in the cage then on the street. If there wasn't there would be deaths.
11-23-2006, 02:48 PM
11-23-2006, 09:59 PM
Beating A dead horse?
Basically any martial arts trained with aliveness (not kata's or ait punches or simulations of what you would do)
Now as far as effectivness goes
The one's we see in the Cage/Ring are the most effective and most practical, not to mention the shape you get into.
Many people argue its not the street, but then again martial arts only allows you to become so prepared for the streets. There is no real indicator how you will do in a 5 vs 1 fight. Or if someone pulls a knife or gun. But you can take steps to prepare, such as trainning in aliveness and really getting the feal for hitting and being hit. Or being able to defend takedowns or if needed take someone down.
MMA offers a wide range of skills that have been proven to work against a resident oppenent.
Many might say " WELL WHATEVER I"D JUST EYE GOUGE AND NERVE PINCH AND THEN PUNCH TOO THE NOSE FOR DEATH STRIKE, IF I WAS TAKEN DOWN"
The statement above is the lazymans answer, the one who ether is unwilling to evolve with the game of fighting or can't fight at all. Firstly, and Secondly Just because you train on Biting, pinching, groin shots, and fish hooks. Dosnt mean you'd be able to pull it off in a street fight. Most likely if you are taken down and you don't have friends near by and you don't have grappling skills. You will get hurt badly and if you try to eye gouge, they'll just pin your arms and do it to you. (since they have the dominate postion.)
Those dirty tricks are things just about everyone knows, so saying rules restricts you from entering a MMA fight is ridculous. I mean if your whole art is based off a few simple cheap moves your ****ed.
11-23-2006, 10:01 PM
Also they have full no rules fights in russia and brazil, so you could always prove your art in those?
11-29-2006, 12:30 PM
ok, i'm a bjj practitioner, purple belt, very close to brown now, and i'm also experienced in kempo , i agree that for the street kempo is better than just bjj, but i think i've got the advantage knowing both you can never be too experienced in knowing all the martial arts you can
11-30-2006, 09:13 PM
man, Im sorry but this is a BS thread that got started to prove what point....Kinda of seems that you just wanted to state what level you are in you art, and arent practitioners at your level suppose to be humble and not start a thread like this. But I guess we all need to vent, but this sub-forums is about MMA, so we all try to learn and help one and another here so this post is kinda disrespectful to some on this including myself even if you didnt mean it to be. But on a different note much respect to what it took to get to the level you are at. Just my 2cents. ALoha.
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