UFC HW division

[MarcusG]

Its probably sunk to its lowest ever. Mir losing in the way he did was awful to Cruz is good at subs but is a total newb to striking.

What UFC needs is to really start bringing in some tough HWs. Arlovski is head and shoulders above everyone.

[Rodja]

The only thing is that there are very few great heavyweights in MMA period. The reason that there are so many in Pride is because most of them use steroids (they are not illegal in Japan). Most of the natural light heavyweights are heavyweights. Even Mir said that being a top 10 heavyweight did not mean much beacuse the division is so thin.

[MarcusG]

The only thing is that there are very few great heavyweights in MMA period. The reason that there are so many in Pride is because most of them use steroids (they are not illegal in Japan). Most of the natural light heavyweights are heavyweights. Even Mir said that being a top 10 heavyweight did not mean much beacuse the division is so thin.

Steroids don't make good fighters period let alone great fighter. And I daresay the UFC has a similar proportion of juicers.

Mir has a point and after his loss, he is out of top-10. UFC has put on 4 HW bumfights when its their weakest division on this card.

[Rodja]

I am not saying that steroids make the fighters better, but they do increase size which is what I was trying to say. It is much easier for a natural light heavy to compete against heavies with some chemical enhancement. The UFC has testing and Pride does not have any; fighters in Pride are just much bigger than those in UFC and the reason, most likely, is steroids.

[MarcusG]

So you are saying Pride is better because they have bigger fighters? Absolute rubbish.

Pride has better HWs because they pay well and better than UFC. Who are the really big Pride HWs? Only Aleks at 6'5" 250 since Herring has gone to K-1.

Big name UFC HWs aren't lacking in size. Sylvia/McGee are giants at 6'8" 265+, Mir/Arlovski are 6'4" 250+, Cruz is 6'4" 240.

[Rodja]

I am not saying Pride is better because they have bigger fighters, but I am saying their HW division is better because they have more big fighters; more fighters equals more competition.Just look at the difference in roster size. Yes, Pride also pays more and there is a better chance for marketing and endorsments as well, but as I was saying, the ability to use steroids helps the fighters to be bigger, stronger, and faster. I am not insinuating that they take BBer amounts but steroids help performance, period. Sylvia, McGee, Ricco are all big, but they were destroyed by Mir and Arlovski. Outside of those two, there are no other fighters that can really compete in the UFC HW division. Even Couture slimmed down after being HW champ for a while.

[SJA]

Marcus.....I believe what Rodja is saying is that steroids are legal in Japan and in the Pride arena. They are not legal in the US or UFC. Therefore, you will find guys in Pride who fight as heavyweights due to the fact that they can use AAS. These same guys would be fighting as light heavyweights if they were to jump over to UFC due to not having AAS at their disposal. Therefore, you will find more HW in Pride than UFC.....right Rodja?
I would like to see Andre go fight in Pride....that would be interesting to see. or silva come over to UFC.....I'd like that as well. The guys who go back and forth between sanctions seem to have trouble with the rules though. That must be hard to try to remember rules when you have reflexive actions engrained in your head.

[kwyckemynd00]

That's what I was reading it as, but what Marcus was saying is that...the 'rules' aren't stopping anyone in the US. Never have, never will.

[SJA]

That's what I was reading it as, but what Marcus was saying is that...the 'rules' aren't stopping anyone in the US. Never have, never will.

But hey are tested. So they cannot come into a match while using. Remember when Sylvia got dinged a while back? He shrank after that.

[kwyckemynd00]

Yeah, but they'll get by it if they think they really need to. Most of those guys aren't huge, and don't want to be. They can be on for long periods of time and come off in time to clear tests.

[Rodja]

Marcus.....I believe what Rodja is saying is that steroids are legal in Japan and in the Pride arena. They are not legal in the US or UFC. Therefore, you will find guys in Pride who fight as heavyweights due to the fact that they can use AAS. These same guys would be fighting as light heavyweights if they were to jump over to UFC due to not having AAS at their disposal. Therefore, you will find more HW in Pride than UFC.....right Rodja?
I would like to see Andre go fight in Pride....that would be interesting to see. or silva come over to UFC.....I'd like that as well. The guys who go back and forth between sanctions seem to have trouble with the rules though. That must be hard to try to remember rules when you have reflexive actions engrained in your head.

Exactly what I was saying...thank you SJA

[MarcusG]

Exactly what I was saying...thank you SJA

Well you still don't make any sense for 3 reasons.

- You are stating that juiced up LHW->HWs are better than naturally big HWs which doesn't make sense.

- Testing in the UFC is lax since only competitors in title bouts are tested. If you think competitors in title fights still can't juice and escape undetected, you're wrong.

- And who are natural LHWs? Do you think Fedor, Nog, Crocop, Kharitonov, Werdum or Aleks will probably be competing at LHW?

[MarcusG]

I just saw a few UFC57 matches and a whole bunch of HW fights looked like bulked up 205'ers.

Hinkle and especially Monson looked stacked to the gills. Eilers, Vera are glorified LHWs.

[Rodja]

Well you still don't make any sense for 3 reasons.

- You are stating that juiced up LHW->HWs are better than naturally big HWs which doesn't make sense.

- Testing in the UFC is lax since only competitors in title bouts are tested. If you think competitors in title fights still can't juice and escape undetected, you're wrong.

- And who are natural LHWs? Do you think Fedor, Nog, Crocop, Kharitonov, Werdum or Aleks will probably be competing at LHW?

Ok lets see if I can explain this again...I am not saying that juiced LHWs are better than natty HW. I am saying that there will be more competition as a DIRECT result of steroid usage, however. Also, UFC tests non-title bouts as well. In a fight several months ago Nate Marquardt tested positive for nandrolone after he fought Ivan Salaverry

[MarcusG]

Ok lets see if I can explain this again...I am not saying that juiced LHWs are better than natty HW. I am saying that there will be more competition as a DIRECT result of steroid usage, however. Also, UFC tests non-title bouts as well. In a fight several months ago Nate Marquardt tested positive for nandrolone after he fought Ivan Salaverry

Your main point is that Pride is better because it has bigger roided fighters which doesn't make sense because most of the big names in Pride don't look anywhere close to Monson and Hinkle or juiced for that matter.

Then you stated that they would have to fight at LHW if testing were instituted. Well who looks like they are juicing and would have to drop a divison?

The UFC only randomly tests competitors in non-title bouts. This was confirmed by the NSAC after the Sylvia debacle. There is no frequent random surprise checks and samples will only be collected post-fight so all the usual precautions for evading postitive results can be applied.

[revodrew]

weak......

[kwyckemynd00]

There is no frequent random surprise checks and samples will only be collected post-fight so all the usual precautions for evading postitive results can be applied.

This was my point earlier, and the point that IMO really matters. Its all about the money, people go where the money is good.

But, just to clear up what the other guy was saying, he was simply stating that because steroids aren't illegal in Japan (PRIDE), there will be more competition in the heavier divisions because people who would have been stuck in a lower division will have the opportunity to advance to a higher division, thereby increasing the occurence of talented HW fighters.

[Brfish]

Your main point is that Pride is better because it has bigger roided fighters which doesn't make sense because most of the big names in Pride don't look anywhere close to Monson and Hinkle or juiced for that matter.

Then you stated that they would have to fight at LHW if testing were instituted. Well who looks like they are juicing and would have to drop a divison?

The UFC only randomly tests competitors in non-title bouts. This was confirmed by the NSAC after the Sylvia debacle. There is no frequent random surprise checks and samples will only be collected post-fight so all the usual precautions for evading postitive results can be applied.

Marcus...He is simply stating that there are more HWs in Pride...Period. More HWs = More competition.


A lot of the guys that fight in the HW catagory in Pride are only HWs cause they can increase their weight due to the prolific steroid use, right up to the fight.

Natural, these guys would not get up to those weights, and still be in any fighting condition. They would be in the LHW division.


He never said anything about Pride fighters being better than UFC due to Steroids, Just that they have MORE fighters in the HW division.

It is very hard to get up to that weight with the kind of training they do to keep up their stamina and keep off the fat. Steriods will help the Pride fighters cross that barrier into the HW division, while keeping BF lower and keeping stamina up.

[Ianhockey91]

The reason pride is better talent wise than the UFC, is money and respect, not steroids (with a few exceptions). Those guys are treated like royalty over there, they dont hear any comments like "kill em" "knock his head off" "we want blood" like the ufc fighters hear and in addition do (despite what xyience commercials may lead ppl to believe) make a lot more money. Look for arlovski to leave the ufc and head over to pride (where he will be a #4 or #5 rank)after the silvia fight (his last one left on his ufc contract) and for Rampage to come over to the ufc to destroy liddell (if babalu doesnt beat him first).

[Alexander]

The only thing is that there are very few great heavyweights in MMA period. The reason that there are so many in Pride is because most of them use steroids (they are not illegal in Japan). Most of the natural light heavyweights are heavyweights. Even Mir said that being a top 10 heavyweight did not mean much beacuse the division is so thin.

So you think Fedor, Sergei, Nog use steroids to increase size and be able to fight at HW? No way. I don't think any of those guys juice at all, and certainly not to increase size. Besides Vanderlei and maybe a few others, I don't think many top fighters in Pride Juice. Maybe they do, but just because its legal over their does not mean you can assume they're juicing without some type of evidence. Money not Juice.