Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by bigpapa View Post
    he got his ass beat. real bad. they had to call the fight.


    anybody still wanna say he is the greatest fighter ever?
    I will say it proudly: Fedor Emelianenko is the greatest fighter in MMA history.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys



  2. All great fighters fall at a certain point. That is what we witnessed tonight. He was the greatest HW of all time, but now he no longer is. End of
    story
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    I don't think anyone is "destroying" Fedor, but I want to see that fight as well and I want to see Overeem come out on top.
    Haha you wanna still stay behind that comment? Fedor was destroyed last night by a guy who couldn't hold several of the UFC's heavyweights jock straps. He also was dominated by Bret Rogers before getting in a big punch in the second round. There are probably 10 heavyweights that are appreciably better than this guy. Imagine how badly Cain Velasquez would beat him.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    When one's entire experience of Fyodor has been couched within the zenith of Zuffa's reign, that position is, I think, a more prevalent one. That said, it ought to be a quick task demonstrating that even Fyodor's post-2005 opponents were august.

    Whether you care to take note of it or not, both Tim Sylvia and Andrei Arlovski were not only consensus top five heavyweights when Fyodor faced them, but more directly to your point, were the best available options given promotional constraints. Similarly, and again whether you choose to accord it, Brett Rogers was a consensus top ten opponent at the time of their bout.

    Now, based on your tone of thought here, my inclination is that your response is to revise history based on the various permutations each fighter's history has taken since then. Hindsight, as they say, is always 20/20.

    I choose instead to judge fighter based on the quality of their opponents as their opponents were considered at the time - I task that becomes exceedingly difficult when you believe things like, "Fyodor left PRIDE." (Fyodor was under contract to PRIDE FC when it collapsed.)

    Judging the trajectory of Fyodor's career under that rubric, it becomes apparent that his quantum of opponents, even recently, is no more or less shameful than many of the other top HWs. Are Cain Velasquez's last five opponents, at the time he faced them, equal to or greater in comparative relevance to Silva, Werdum, Rogers, Arlovski and Sylvia? Well, to put a complex issue simply, no.

    Simply put, Fyodor is a phenomenal fighter whose legacy speaks for itself to anybody not listening with a bias-tinged ear. He has clearly followed the well-trodden path of a quick descent from grace that has beset fighters throughout the entire history of combat sports - a fact, however, that ought not broad stroke the storied ascension which came before it.
    Good points overall, but lets not forget that Werdum couldn't cut it in the UFC and was 2-2 overall...Also, there is no denying that even though AT THE TIME, Arlovski and Sylvia were considered top heavyweights, their downfalls had already begun and were not 100% the same fighters they had been. I don't believe that anyone who SERIOUSLY watches and studies MMA would say that Big Foot Silva or Bret Rogers would make any waves in the UFC heavyweight division, they are not nearly the athletes that some of the guys in the UFC are. So although relevance may be given to Fedor for the names he fought, that doesn't mean that he fought overall better competition.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    Good points overall, but lets not forget that Werdum couldn't cut it in the UFC and was 2-2 overall...Also, there is no denying that even though AT THE TIME, Arlovski and Sylvia were considered top heavyweights, their downfalls had already begun and were not 100% the same fighters they had been. I don't believe that anyone who SERIOUSLY watches and studies MMA would say that Big Foot Silva or Bret Rogers would make any waves in the UFC heavyweight division, they are not nearly the athletes that some of the guys in the UFC are. So although relevance may be given to Fedor for the names he fought, that doesn't mean that he fought overall better competition.
    No one is ever going to debate the greatness of Royce Gracie, but he got old and wasn't fairing as well anymore. Fedor got old and also the sport has changed on him too.

    Werdum was a fluke, a mistake by Fedor which Werdum capitalized on greatly, but Fedor was winning that fight and for a moment I thought Werdum was done.

    Big Foot is a MASSIVE opponent, which is a development of the sport, and it really took Fedor, who is no longer a young gun and manhandled him then.

    It happens, it's a shame to see a legend lose, but what can one say, everyone's got their time and this is Fedor's time.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    Good points overall, but lets not forget that Werdum couldn't cut it in the UFC and was 2-2 overall...Also, there is no denying that even though AT THE TIME, Arlovski and Sylvia were considered top heavyweights, their downfalls had already begun and were not 100% the same fighters they had been. I don't believe that anyone who SERIOUSLY watches and studies MMA would say that Big Foot Silva or Bret Rogers would make any waves in the UFC heavyweight division, they are not nearly the athletes that some of the guys in the UFC are. So although relevance may be given to Fedor for the names he fought, that doesn't mean that he fought overall better competition.
    Well, whatever given fighter X achieves after meeting given fighter Y is almost entirely peripheral to the events which occurred during and preceding their meeting. Combat sports are a generally fickle enterprise, so much so that delineating the exact moment of departure for a fighter's downfall is fruitless. Any even-handed approach judges a fighter's competition by how that competition was perceived at the time.

    At the time of the Arlovski/Fyodor bout, Arlovksi had just destroyed Roy Nelson - something Dos Santos failed to do in three rounds - and brutalized Ben Rothwell, a mutual achievement between himself and Velasquez.

    Now, based on your comments here regarding the UFC, one would naturally assume that you feel Dos Santos and Velasquez are elite HWs; and, no doubt, you therefore consider their victories over Nelson and Rothwell to be principal to that status. If that is true, which I think it is, than we should hold 2008-Arlovski in a similarly high regard. Well, Fyodor destroyed that Arlovski.

    The issue is that fighters are not elite simply by virtue of being in the UFC, but rather, the UFC happens to be possessive of the overwhelming majority of elite fighters. On close inspection based on talent, the UFC's and SF's HW divisions are more or less on par with one another - making the project of diminishing Fyodor's entire career based on his SF opposition a very unattractive prospect.

  7. People seem to completely underestimate the impact of being a 285lb going against a 230...

    Same deal as Brock on the UFC. Having 285lb on top of you is just ridiculous.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, whatever given fighter X achieves after meeting given fighter Y is almost entirely peripheral to the events which occurred during and preceding their meeting. Combat sports are a generally fickle enterprise, so much so that delineating the exact moment of departure for a fighter's downfall is fruitless. Any even-handed approach judges a fighter's competition by how that competition was perceived at the time.

    At the time of the Arlovski/Fyodor bout, Arlovksi had just destroyed Roy Nelson - something Dos Santos failed to do in three rounds - and brutalized Ben Rothwell, a mutual achievement between himself and Velasquez.

    Now, based on your comments here regarding the UFC, one would naturally assume that you feel Dos Santos and Velasquez are elite HWs; and, no doubt, you therefore consider their victories over Nelson and Rothwell to be principal to that status. If that is true, which I think it is, than we should hold 2008-Arlovski in a similarly high regard. Well, Fyodor destroyed that Arlovski.

    The issue is that fighters are not elite simply by virtue of being in the UFC, but rather, the UFC happens to be possessive of the overwhelming majority of elite fighters. On close inspection based on talent, the UFC's and SF's HW divisions are more or less on par with one another - making the project of diminishing Fyodor's entire career based on his SF opposition a very unattractive prospect.
    I understand what your saying..but first of all, Fedor did not destroy Arlovski, Arlovski was whoopin his As& and then got hit with a one hit knockout during a flying knee attempt thanks to his glass chin...and no, I am not trying to make the comparison to who they've beaten, bc as you point out, there is no transitive property in sports...I am merely with my eyes judging the kind of athletes they are. I guess the best way to describe what I am trying to say is to look at college football and the SEC vs everyone else....strikeforce's heavyweights are VERY good, but the UFC has more ELITE heavyweights. I think Overeem and a prime Josh Barnett are the only two who could compete at the highest level in the UFC...that is juts my OPINION based on what I see. And I realize that there are only a 3-4 UFC heavyweights that could compete at that same level...but the meat of the UFC's heavyweight division is far superior to Bret Rogers and Antonio Silva.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    I understand what your saying..but first of all, Fedor did not destroy Arlovski, Arlovski was whoopin his As& and then got hit with a one hit knockout during a flying knee attempt thanks to his glass chin...and no, I am not trying to make the comparison to who they've beaten, bc as you point out, there is no transitive property in sports...I am merely with my eyes judging the kind of athletes they are. I guess the best way to describe what I am trying to say is to look at college football and the SEC vs everyone else....strikeforce's heavyweights are VERY good, but the UFC has more ELITE heavyweights. I think Overeem and a prime Josh Barnett are the only two who could compete at the highest level in the UFC...that is juts my OPINION based on what I see. And I realize that there are only a 3-4 UFC heavyweights that could compete at that same level...but the meat of the UFC's heavyweight division is far superior to Bret Rogers and Antonio Silva.
    Most of the UFC's HW are very unproven. Their top-3 would be Cain, JDS, and Brock. Now, when you breakdown their wins, their isn't a lot of substance to them. Brock's best win is against Mir, an overrated HW for his entire career. JDS best win would be against Nelson or Werdum. Cain's best win is Brock. There are not any legitimate threats to the title outside of those 3 fighters in the UFC with the others always going to be contenders.

    Now, Carwin, Mir, Schuab, Nelson, and Nog are still great fighters, but are either limited or past their respective primes.

    When you stack up against the top-8 of SF and the UFC, I give the advantage of depth and achievements to the SF roster. I easily think that 5 of SF's fighters could hold the UFC championship this moment (Barnett, Overeem, Kharitonov, Bigfoot, Fedor), but can't see anyone holding the UFC title outside of the aforementioned top-3.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  10. Well it doesn't matter, but I disagree wholeheartedly...Overeem is on another planet athletically as compared to kharitonov and bigfoot, just as I feel that Lesnar, Dos Santos, Carwin and Velasquez are. ...Guys like Kharitonov and Bigfoot can beat you if you do something stupid, which is why combat sports are so great... but 7-8 times out of 10 they have no business being in the ring with the elite guys we are talking about. And Fedor proved last night that the game has just changed too much on him.....guys that know how to use their size to their advantage (and also have good chins) will beat him most of the time if they are also submission savvy.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    I understand what your saying..but first of all, Fedor did not destroy Arlovski, Arlovski was whoopin his As& and then got hit with a one hit knockout during a flying knee attempt thanks to his glass chin.
    Ah, revisionist history at work again. The memé that Arlovski was "whooping Fyodor's ass" is prevalent but again entirely problematic. More or less like saying, "Ah man, he was winning...until he lost!" The salient portion of the fight is twofold: a) Arlovski was the best available match for Fyordor, UFC heavyweights included and b) he lost in spectacular fashion.

    and no, I am not trying to make the comparison to who they've beaten, bc as you point out, there is no transitive property in sports...I am merely with my eyes judging the kind of athletes they are.
    You are not explicitly stating as much, but that is more or less my point: you are compelled to compare their competition by drawing into such sharp relief the (false) notion that, "the UFC's HWs are better." Naturally, then, the question arises of how we determine who is, on the one hand, good, and on the other, bad. Well, given combat sports is a head-to-head venture, I would presume we differentiate participants based on: a) their opponents and b) how they performed against said opponents.

    In this sense, Fyodor historically performed more admirably against similar opponents than did some of the UFC's HWs.

    I think Overeem and a prime Josh Barnett are the only two who could compete at the highest level in the UFC...that is juts my OPINION based on what I see. And I realize that there are only a 3-4 UFC heavyweights that could compete at that same level...but the meat of the UFC's heavyweight division is far superior to Bret Rogers and Antonio Silva.
    What is, "the meat" of the HW division? I think you fail to recognize that both promotions suffer form a terminal lack of talent, and the fall from the top to the mid-pack in both organizations is precipitous.

    If by "the meat" you mean the mid-pack, than you are more or less completely wrong. I would pick Antonio Silva over both Nelson and Big Nog, and would be torn in a fight between himself and Mir. Beyond that, you have, on a consensus basis, Carwin, Dos Santos, Velasquez and Lesnar as the UFC's ranked HW crop. At that point, though, we are comparing different stratas of each division. Which speaks to my point.

    You are overestimating the talent of the UFCs HWs in order to shortchange Fyodor, but it ends up working against you.

  12. Personally I think SF is slightly deeper at HW than the UFC. However, I believe the top 2 of the UFC beat all in SF except for Reem. I do not think Werdum, Big Foot or Barnet (who is not viable at this point till he actually fights) are legit challengers. I think there is a greater depth of talent in SF, but the upper echelon of the UFC is better IMO.

    Regarding Fedor, no doubt GOAT, but age and the game itself passed him by. It has happened to all others in the past, and will to all the greats of the future.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by bigpapa View Post
    fedor got destroyed lol
    Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    Haha you wanna still stay behind that comment? Fedor was destroyed last night by a guy who couldn't hold several of the UFC's heavyweights jock straps. He also was dominated by Bret Rogers before getting in a big punch in the second round. There are probably 10 heavyweights that are appreciably better than this guy. Imagine how badly Cain Velasquez would beat him.
    Wow..... I was speechless, but I was rooting for Silva anyway, so I was ecstatic at the same time.
    NSCA - CSCS

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Ah, revisionist history at work again. The memé that Arlovski was "whooping Fyodor's ass" is prevalent but again entirely problematic. More or less like saying, "Ah man, he was winning...until he lost!" The salient portion of the fight is twofold: a) Arlovski was the best available match for Fyordor, UFC heavyweights included and b) he lost in spectacular fashion.



    You are not explicitly stating as much, but that is more or less my point: you are compelled to compare their competition by drawing into such sharp relief the (false) notion that, "the UFC's HWs are better." Naturally, then, the question arises of how we determine who is, on the one hand, good, and on the other, bad. Well, given combat sports is a head-to-head venture, I would presume we differentiate participants based on: a) their opponents and b) how they performed against said opponents.

    In this sense, Fyodor historically performed more admirably against similar opponents than did some of the UFC's HWs.



    What is, "the meat" of the HW division? I think you fail to recognize that both promotions suffer form a terminal lack of talent, and the fall from the top to the mid-pack in both organizations is precipitous.

    If by "the meat" you mean the mid-pack, than you are more or less completely wrong. I would pick Antonio Silva over both Nelson and Big Nog, and would be torn in a fight between himself and Mir. Beyond that, you have, on a consensus basis, Carwin, Dos Santos, Velasquez and Lesnar as the UFC's ranked HW crop. At that point, though, we are comparing different stratas of each division. Which speaks to my point.

    You are overestimating the talent of the UFCs HWs in order to shortchange Fyodor, but it ends up working against you.
    Well to your points:

    1. You said that fedor was dominating Arlovski...that was not the case, crystal clear. He did win and that shows his grit, but your statement was simply that he dominated that fight..false

    2.Agree on this point, bc they will probably never fight head to head and we will never really know

    3. I was responding to someone else on this one who believed that Silva could hold the UFC belt, which I disagreed with and made my opinion...I agree that he would probably at this point be above Nelson and Big Nog, I was comparing him more directly to the four UFC guys and Overeem and Barnett....he would more often than not get destroyed by those guys..I think you misunderstood there.

    Too bad they can't just settle it in the ring

  15. Let's not just breeze by the fact that Fedor's translator looks dead like Roseanne Bar.
    NSCA - CSCS

  16. Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    Well to your points:

    1. You said that fedor was dominating Arlovski...that was not the case, crystal clear. He did win and that shows his grit, but your statement was simply that he dominated that fight..false
    Oddly placed elipses put aside for a moment, that is in fact not what I said. I said he, "Destroyed" Arlovksi. Or, in other words, I stated precisely what he indeed did.

    Again, taking it for granted that Arlovski was 'winning' that fight - he was not - that three minutes is peripheral to the point that Fyodor blitzed Arlovski at a time when his chin was not suspect. Unless your vocabulary is more superlative than mine, I cannot think of a better term than "destroyed" for a fighter who was knocked out, mid-air, permanently altering the trajectory of his career.

    3. I was responding to someone else on this one who believed that Silva could hold the UFC belt, which I disagreed with and made my opinion...I agree that he would probably at this point be above Nelson and Big Nog, I was comparing him more directly to the four UFC guys and Overeem and Barnett....he would more often than not get destroyed by those guys..I think you misunderstood there.
    Ah, well I certainly concede, but it is a bit beside the point, no? That is more or less similar to claiming that the UFC's HW division is talent-poor because Roy Nelson would lose to Overeem.

  17. i was there and that fight broke my heart, at least i got a chance to see Fedor in person
    BJJ = life

  18. the heavy weights seem to keep getting bigger..to me it just doesnt seem fair for a 230lb man to fight a 285lb man..look what happened to Cotour fighting a massive Brock..i think there should be a super heavy weight division..you would never see a 145lb fighter having to fight in the 185 division for that simple reason..some of these fights are equivalent to most of us fighting our wives in the ring..heavy weight should be 206-245..246+ for super heavy weight

  19. Quote Originally Posted by purelife2 View Post
    the heavy weights seem to keep getting bigger..to me it just doesnt seem fair for a 230lb man to fight a 285lb man..look what happened to Cotour fighting a massive Brock..i think there should be a super heavy weight division..you would never see a 145lb fighter having to fight in the 185 division for that simple reason..some of these fights are equivalent to most of us fighting our wives in the ring..heavy weight should be 206-245..246+ for super heavy weight
    I have always said that, for the longest time. It makes absolutely no sense for these to be fighting each other.

    Granted, there would be a limited pool at SHW, which is why they don't do this, but I agree it "should" happen.

    P.S.: Dana White, what a class act fellow... He has been ripping on Fedor since he lost on his twitter account. Such a sportsman and what a great entertainer. Just bash on a person who just lost a contest.

  20. fu(k dana white
    BJJ = life

  21. Fedor's loss signified one very important thing to me and that is that the Golden Age of MMA is officially gone. Now, we have too many people concerned about their celebrity, trying not to lose instead of trying to win, and the great fighters of yesteryear are no longer great. You look at all of the great champions from 5 years ago: Chuck, Wand, Fedor, Couture, Nog, Fedor, Hughes, etc., almost all are just kinda hanging around the sport (Hendo and Penn being the exceptions).

    Once PRIDE was bought out, I knew that the landscape had changed and I was worried that it was not for the best. Lately, I have noticed that I don't get as excited for the sport as I once did and have actually missed some of the events and just watch them later. For over 5 years, I watched every event and couldn't wait until the next one. I could name most of the card and what event number it was, but, now, I just don't have the same fire for it. With Dana White at the helm, MMA has became a chariacature of itself and it's only getting worse. Add in the fact that MMA "fans" are not only ignorant, but are amongst the most annoying factions of humans on this planet and you have a big problem.

    Don't get me wrong, I still love to train and watch the events, but the luster has faded a bit. Even the great champions right now (Anderson and GSP) have only made the problem worse and I only get excited to watch a handful of people. There is always new talent emerging and I hope that this is a just a phase, but, right now, the quality of the product is stale.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  22. i agree. i got to witness some awful fans on saturday. they kept yelling "come on fight you pus$ies!!" and yelling at the ref to stand it up when one guy had the other guys back. at one point i heard a guy say "takedowns?? booo!!"

    also, not that many people seemed to be bothered by the stoppage. i was going nuts after the decision was made, ran down to the lower level to see whats going on forgetting my girl in the process. everyone just filtered out of the arena like they were at the bar.

    i dont know what to make of that loss. the whole fight and its outcome have somewhat decreased my interest in any future mma events.
    BJJ = life

  23. Quote Originally Posted by purelife2 View Post
    the heavy weights seem to keep getting bigger..to me it just doesnt seem fair for a 230lb man to fight a 285lb man..look what happened to Cotour fighting a massive Brock..i think there should be a super heavy weight division..you would never see a 145lb fighter having to fight in the 185 division for that simple reason..some of these fights are equivalent to most of us fighting our wives in the ring..heavy weight should be 206-245..246+ for super heavy weight
    On the same token, look at when Cain fought Brock. Cain was what 240? and he thoroughly raped Brock at 260 or a speculated 280 on fight night weight. "The better fighter wins" prevails over "the heavier fighter wins" concept, more often then not, otherwise, Bob Sapp should be the HW number one fighter in all of MMA or that Japanese freak Fedor arm bared off his back. Weight certainly played little role in Fedor defeating Hong Man Choi or whatever and Hong Man outweighs Bigfoot Silva by a good 40lbs himself.

    Fedor is also a smaller HW and its his prerogative to choose not to cut down to 205, cause lord knows he could afford to shed some adipose. However, he chooses not to cut and play with the big boys. It's a decision, not a force of will that he's not at 205, as his frame would dictate a more preferable weight class of fighters.
    NSCA - CSCS

  24. Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    i agree. i got to witness some awful fans on saturday. they kept yelling "come on fight you pus$ies!!" and yelling at the ref to stand it up when one guy had the other guys back. at one point i heard a guy say "takedowns?? booo!!"

    also, not that many people seemed to be bothered by the stoppage. i was going nuts after the decision was made, ran down to the lower level to see whats going on forgetting my girl in the process. everyone just filtered out of the arena like they were at the bar.

    i dont know what to make of that loss. the whole fight and its outcome have somewhat decreased my interest in any future mma events.
    The stoppage was justified and I don't know how accurate this is, you may want to look into it:

    Doctor asked Fedor: "Can you continue?" Fedor shook his head and said – "No, I can’t" – accrdng to the doctor that spoke to Russian reporter http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/2/14...n-orbital-bone
    Nonetheless, Fedor with both eyes functioning was losing the fight, let alone Fedor with one functioning eye and no depth perception. Good luck landing a punch on somebody with a 7inch reach advantage and you can't judge distance. A third round would have been a disservice to the Last Emperor.
    NSCA - CSCS

  25. ahhh ok i take back what i said. it looked like the doctor stopped it and ive been too pissed off about it to read any articles. what a shame, i guess his age has caught up and the game has passed him by..

    it was such a touching scene at the fight. im originally from Russia and it felt awesome to see so many russian people, flags, tshirts. we dont have a whole lot to be proud of these days, the country has gone to $hit. Fedor is a hero for millions of people that live here and back home. all these years he signified the toughness and the perseverance of the Russian people so it really sucked to see him get beat like that.
    BJJ = life
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