Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    I understand what your saying..but first of all, Fedor did not destroy Arlovski, Arlovski was whoopin his As& and then got hit with a one hit knockout during a flying knee attempt thanks to his glass chin.
    Ah, revisionist history at work again. The memй that Arlovski was "whooping Fyodor's ass" is prevalent but again entirely problematic. More or less like saying, "Ah man, he was winning...until he lost!" The salient portion of the fight is twofold: a) Arlovski was the best available match for Fyordor, UFC heavyweights included and b) he lost in spectacular fashion.

    and no, I am not trying to make the comparison to who they've beaten, bc as you point out, there is no transitive property in sports...I am merely with my eyes judging the kind of athletes they are.
    You are not explicitly stating as much, but that is more or less my point: you are compelled to compare their competition by drawing into such sharp relief the (false) notion that, "the UFC's HWs are better." Naturally, then, the question arises of how we determine who is, on the one hand, good, and on the other, bad. Well, given combat sports is a head-to-head venture, I would presume we differentiate participants based on: a) their opponents and b) how they performed against said opponents.

    In this sense, Fyodor historically performed more admirably against similar opponents than did some of the UFC's HWs.

    I think Overeem and a prime Josh Barnett are the only two who could compete at the highest level in the UFC...that is juts my OPINION based on what I see. And I realize that there are only a 3-4 UFC heavyweights that could compete at that same level...but the meat of the UFC's heavyweight division is far superior to Bret Rogers and Antonio Silva.
    What is, "the meat" of the HW division? I think you fail to recognize that both promotions suffer form a terminal lack of talent, and the fall from the top to the mid-pack in both organizations is precipitous.

    If by "the meat" you mean the mid-pack, than you are more or less completely wrong. I would pick Antonio Silva over both Nelson and Big Nog, and would be torn in a fight between himself and Mir. Beyond that, you have, on a consensus basis, Carwin, Dos Santos, Velasquez and Lesnar as the UFC's ranked HW crop. At that point, though, we are comparing different stratas of each division. Which speaks to my point.

    You are overestimating the talent of the UFCs HWs in order to shortchange Fyodor, but it ends up working against you.


  2. Personally I think SF is slightly deeper at HW than the UFC. However, I believe the top 2 of the UFC beat all in SF except for Reem. I do not think Werdum, Big Foot or Barnet (who is not viable at this point till he actually fights) are legit challengers. I think there is a greater depth of talent in SF, but the upper echelon of the UFC is better IMO.

    Regarding Fedor, no doubt GOAT, but age and the game itself passed him by. It has happened to all others in the past, and will to all the greats of the future.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by bigpapa View Post
    fedor got destroyed lol
    Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    Haha you wanna still stay behind that comment? Fedor was destroyed last night by a guy who couldn't hold several of the UFC's heavyweights jock straps. He also was dominated by Bret Rogers before getting in a big punch in the second round. There are probably 10 heavyweights that are appreciably better than this guy. Imagine how badly Cain Velasquez would beat him.
    Wow..... I was speechless, but I was rooting for Silva anyway, so I was ecstatic at the same time.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Ah, revisionist history at work again. The memй that Arlovski was "whooping Fyodor's ass" is prevalent but again entirely problematic. More or less like saying, "Ah man, he was winning...until he lost!" The salient portion of the fight is twofold: a) Arlovski was the best available match for Fyordor, UFC heavyweights included and b) he lost in spectacular fashion.



    You are not explicitly stating as much, but that is more or less my point: you are compelled to compare their competition by drawing into such sharp relief the (false) notion that, "the UFC's HWs are better." Naturally, then, the question arises of how we determine who is, on the one hand, good, and on the other, bad. Well, given combat sports is a head-to-head venture, I would presume we differentiate participants based on: a) their opponents and b) how they performed against said opponents.

    In this sense, Fyodor historically performed more admirably against similar opponents than did some of the UFC's HWs.



    What is, "the meat" of the HW division? I think you fail to recognize that both promotions suffer form a terminal lack of talent, and the fall from the top to the mid-pack in both organizations is precipitous.

    If by "the meat" you mean the mid-pack, than you are more or less completely wrong. I would pick Antonio Silva over both Nelson and Big Nog, and would be torn in a fight between himself and Mir. Beyond that, you have, on a consensus basis, Carwin, Dos Santos, Velasquez and Lesnar as the UFC's ranked HW crop. At that point, though, we are comparing different stratas of each division. Which speaks to my point.

    You are overestimating the talent of the UFCs HWs in order to shortchange Fyodor, but it ends up working against you.
    Well to your points:

    1. You said that fedor was dominating Arlovski...that was not the case, crystal clear. He did win and that shows his grit, but your statement was simply that he dominated that fight..false

    2.Agree on this point, bc they will probably never fight head to head and we will never really know

    3. I was responding to someone else on this one who believed that Silva could hold the UFC belt, which I disagreed with and made my opinion...I agree that he would probably at this point be above Nelson and Big Nog, I was comparing him more directly to the four UFC guys and Overeem and Barnett....he would more often than not get destroyed by those guys..I think you misunderstood there.

    Too bad they can't just settle it in the ring

  5. Let's not just breeze by the fact that Fedor's translator looks dead like Roseanne Bar.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by codered5 View Post
    Well to your points:

    1. You said that fedor was dominating Arlovski...that was not the case, crystal clear. He did win and that shows his grit, but your statement was simply that he dominated that fight..false
    Oddly placed elipses put aside for a moment, that is in fact not what I said. I said he, "Destroyed" Arlovksi. Or, in other words, I stated precisely what he indeed did.

    Again, taking it for granted that Arlovski was 'winning' that fight - he was not - that three minutes is peripheral to the point that Fyodor blitzed Arlovski at a time when his chin was not suspect. Unless your vocabulary is more superlative than mine, I cannot think of a better term than "destroyed" for a fighter who was knocked out, mid-air, permanently altering the trajectory of his career.

    3. I was responding to someone else on this one who believed that Silva could hold the UFC belt, which I disagreed with and made my opinion...I agree that he would probably at this point be above Nelson and Big Nog, I was comparing him more directly to the four UFC guys and Overeem and Barnett....he would more often than not get destroyed by those guys..I think you misunderstood there.
    Ah, well I certainly concede, but it is a bit beside the point, no? That is more or less similar to claiming that the UFC's HW division is talent-poor because Roy Nelson would lose to Overeem.

  7. i was there and that fight broke my heart, at least i got a chance to see Fedor in person
    BJJ = life

  8. the heavy weights seem to keep getting bigger..to me it just doesnt seem fair for a 230lb man to fight a 285lb man..look what happened to Cotour fighting a massive Brock..i think there should be a super heavy weight division..you would never see a 145lb fighter having to fight in the 185 division for that simple reason..some of these fights are equivalent to most of us fighting our wives in the ring..heavy weight should be 206-245..246+ for super heavy weight

  9. Quote Originally Posted by purelife2 View Post
    the heavy weights seem to keep getting bigger..to me it just doesnt seem fair for a 230lb man to fight a 285lb man..look what happened to Cotour fighting a massive Brock..i think there should be a super heavy weight division..you would never see a 145lb fighter having to fight in the 185 division for that simple reason..some of these fights are equivalent to most of us fighting our wives in the ring..heavy weight should be 206-245..246+ for super heavy weight
    I have always said that, for the longest time. It makes absolutely no sense for these to be fighting each other.

    Granted, there would be a limited pool at SHW, which is why they don't do this, but I agree it "should" happen.

    P.S.: Dana White, what a class act fellow... He has been ripping on Fedor since he lost on his twitter account. Such a sportsman and what a great entertainer. Just bash on a person who just lost a contest.

  10. fu(k dana white
    BJJ = life

  11. Fedor's loss signified one very important thing to me and that is that the Golden Age of MMA is officially gone. Now, we have too many people concerned about their celebrity, trying not to lose instead of trying to win, and the great fighters of yesteryear are no longer great. You look at all of the great champions from 5 years ago: Chuck, Wand, Fedor, Couture, Nog, Fedor, Hughes, etc., almost all are just kinda hanging around the sport (Hendo and Penn being the exceptions).

    Once PRIDE was bought out, I knew that the landscape had changed and I was worried that it was not for the best. Lately, I have noticed that I don't get as excited for the sport as I once did and have actually missed some of the events and just watch them later. For over 5 years, I watched every event and couldn't wait until the next one. I could name most of the card and what event number it was, but, now, I just don't have the same fire for it. With Dana White at the helm, MMA has became a chariacature of itself and it's only getting worse. Add in the fact that MMA "fans" are not only ignorant, but are amongst the most annoying factions of humans on this planet and you have a big problem.

    Don't get me wrong, I still love to train and watch the events, but the luster has faded a bit. Even the great champions right now (Anderson and GSP) have only made the problem worse and I only get excited to watch a handful of people. There is always new talent emerging and I hope that this is a just a phase, but, right now, the quality of the product is stale.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  12. i agree. i got to witness some awful fans on saturday. they kept yelling "come on fight you pus$ies!!" and yelling at the ref to stand it up when one guy had the other guys back. at one point i heard a guy say "takedowns?? booo!!"

    also, not that many people seemed to be bothered by the stoppage. i was going nuts after the decision was made, ran down to the lower level to see whats going on forgetting my girl in the process. everyone just filtered out of the arena like they were at the bar.

    i dont know what to make of that loss. the whole fight and its outcome have somewhat decreased my interest in any future mma events.
    BJJ = life

  13. Quote Originally Posted by purelife2 View Post
    the heavy weights seem to keep getting bigger..to me it just doesnt seem fair for a 230lb man to fight a 285lb man..look what happened to Cotour fighting a massive Brock..i think there should be a super heavy weight division..you would never see a 145lb fighter having to fight in the 185 division for that simple reason..some of these fights are equivalent to most of us fighting our wives in the ring..heavy weight should be 206-245..246+ for super heavy weight
    On the same token, look at when Cain fought Brock. Cain was what 240? and he thoroughly raped Brock at 260 or a speculated 280 on fight night weight. "The better fighter wins" prevails over "the heavier fighter wins" concept, more often then not, otherwise, Bob Sapp should be the HW number one fighter in all of MMA or that Japanese freak Fedor arm bared off his back. Weight certainly played little role in Fedor defeating Hong Man Choi or whatever and Hong Man outweighs Bigfoot Silva by a good 40lbs himself.

    Fedor is also a smaller HW and its his prerogative to choose not to cut down to 205, cause lord knows he could afford to shed some adipose. However, he chooses not to cut and play with the big boys. It's a decision, not a force of will that he's not at 205, as his frame would dictate a more preferable weight class of fighters.
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    i agree. i got to witness some awful fans on saturday. they kept yelling "come on fight you pus$ies!!" and yelling at the ref to stand it up when one guy had the other guys back. at one point i heard a guy say "takedowns?? booo!!"

    also, not that many people seemed to be bothered by the stoppage. i was going nuts after the decision was made, ran down to the lower level to see whats going on forgetting my girl in the process. everyone just filtered out of the arena like they were at the bar.

    i dont know what to make of that loss. the whole fight and its outcome have somewhat decreased my interest in any future mma events.
    The stoppage was justified and I don't know how accurate this is, you may want to look into it:

    Doctor asked Fedor: "Can you continue?" Fedor shook his head and said – "No, I can’t" – accrdng to the doctor that spoke to Russian reporter http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/2/14...n-orbital-bone
    Nonetheless, Fedor with both eyes functioning was losing the fight, let alone Fedor with one functioning eye and no depth perception. Good luck landing a punch on somebody with a 7inch reach advantage and you can't judge distance. A third round would have been a disservice to the Last Emperor.
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  15. ahhh ok i take back what i said. it looked like the doctor stopped it and ive been too pissed off about it to read any articles. what a shame, i guess his age has caught up and the game has passed him by..

    it was such a touching scene at the fight. im originally from Russia and it felt awesome to see so many russian people, flags, tshirts. we dont have a whole lot to be proud of these days, the country has gone to $hit. Fedor is a hero for millions of people that live here and back home. all these years he signified the toughness and the perseverance of the Russian people so it really sucked to see him get beat like that.
    BJJ = life

  16. Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    On the same token, look at when Cain fought Brock. Cain was what 240? and he thoroughly raped Brock at 260 or a speculated 280 on fight night weight. "The better fighter wins" prevails over "the heavier fighter wins" concept, more often then not, otherwise, Bob Sapp should be the HW number one fighter in all of MMA or that Japanese freak Fedor arm bared off his back. Weight certainly played little role in Fedor defeating Hong Man Choi or whatever and Hong Man outweighs Bigfoot Silva by a good 40lbs himself.

    Fedor is also a smaller HW and its his prerogative to choose not to cut down to 205, cause lord knows he could afford to shed some adipose. However, he chooses not to cut and play with the big boys. It's a decision, not a force of will that he's not at 205, as his frame would dictate a more preferable weight class of fighters.
    To say that the only reason for one to win is due to massive weight advantage is flawed, but to say it plays a very significant role in it, not so much.

    Cain beat Lesnar even 30lbs under, indeed, but those 30lbs masked a much bigger discrepancy that would most likely have portraied itself if it was not for the extra weight.

    I just find that the heavyweight division should be split up, it is hard to move someone who is 20% heavier than you from above you, that's all I'm saying.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    ahhh ok i take back what i said. it looked like the doctor stopped it and ive been too pissed off about it to read any articles. what a shame, i guess his age has caught up and the game has passed him by..

    it was such a touching scene at the fight. im originally from Russia and it felt awesome to see so many russian people, flags, tshirts. we dont have a whole lot to be proud of these days, the country has gone to $hit. Fedor is a hero for millions of people that live here and back home. all these years he signified the toughness and the perseverance of the Russian people so it really sucked to see him get beat like that.
    I hear you. Well, rumor has it that Coker has offered Fedor first shot as a replacement fighter if he wants it. It's a bit shady toward the fighters who faught and earned a spot, but he's Fedor. Fedor's manager is very pro this idea, surprise-surprise. However, I don't think Fedor will care for this carrot, but we'll see if M1 can mind-fak Fedor into intercepting a replacement spot.

    EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Although the MMA legend hinted at retirement following a second-round TKO loss to Antonio Silva, Fedor Emelianenko's fighting career may not be over.

    Both Strikeforce CEO Scott Coker and Emelianenko's agent, M-1 Global president Vadim Finkelchtein, want the 34-year-old to continue.

    And Coker could dangle an intriguing opportunity should Emelianenko wish to continue fighting: first dibs on any alternate spots that open in the Strikeforce heavyweight grand prix.

    Emelianenko (31-3 MMA, 1-2 SF) and Silva (16-2 MMA, 3-1 SF) headlined Saturday's Showtime-televised "Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Silva" event at the IZOD Center in East Rutherford, N.J. After a close first round, Silva unloaded a brutal ground-and-pound assault in the second. With the Russian's right eye swollen shut, the cageside physician halted the bout after before the start of the third round, which resulted in Emelianenko's second consecutive defeat since a legendary decade-long win streak.

    The bout was part of the opening round of Strikeforce's eight-man, season-long heavyweight tournament. And though three tourney-reserve bouts populated Saturday's main card, any available alternate spots instead could go to Emelianenko.

    "There's absolutely a possibility he could be a replacement," Coker told MMAjunkie.com (UFC blog for UFC news, UFC rumors, fighter interviews and event previews/recaps | MMAjunkie.com) after the show. "That's the beauty of the tournament. You don't know what could happen in the next leg of the tournament. As this tournament unwinds over the year, there could be an injury, and you could see Fedor back in the tournament."

    Decisions about injury replacements ultimately will be made by a Strikeforce committee, as Coker previously announced. And though Shane Del Rosario, Chad Griggs and Valentijn Overeem all won reserve bouts at Saturday's show, Emelianenko could cut to the front of the line.

    Emelianenko undoubtedly would be the biggest draw of the four. But Coker said there would be other reasons for the selection. Namely, that Silva vs. Emelianenko was cut short by an injury.

    "It was a tough fight out there," Coker said. "Like Alistair (Overeem) said, Fedor always comes back in the third round. But he didn't get a chance today. (With) the stoppage today, I don't think Fedor could see. He may have even had an orbital fracture, but safety comes first. He'll have another day."

    Regardless, Coker said he and Emelianenko, who recently signed a new multi-fight deal with Strikeforce, have plenty of bouts ahead. Neither he nor Finkelchtein appeared to take Emelianenko's retirement talk seriously.

    "You know how that goes," Coker said. "Guys get very emotional after fights. We'll see."

    Finkelchtein, who said the doctor's stoppage was "the right decision," thinks Emelianenko may have just been emotional when he mentioned the possibility of retiring.

    "I think Fedor was just upset," he said. "That decision, of course, belongs to Fedor. But I think I know him well, and I think he's full so full of strength. I think he will continue."

    Emelianenko, arguably the greatest heavyweight in MMA history and one of the sport's most accomplished fighters, suffered a June loss to Fabricio Werdum, which snapped a staggering 27-fight win streak. The former PRIDE champion now has suffered consecutive defeats.
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    I hear you. Well, rumor has it that Coker has offered Fedor first shot as a replacement fighter if he wants it. It's a bit shady toward the fighters who faught and earned a spot, but he's Fedor. Fedor's manager is very pro this idea, surprise-surprise. However, I don't think Fedor will care for this carrot, but we'll see if M1 can mind-fak Fedor into intercepting a replacement spot.
    yea well regardless of what happens in this tournament, dont you think he has definitely lost a step? i didnt see that usual aura of confidence and invincibility, he wasnt moving as swiftly as he usually does. maybe even a little timid to strike? have you ever seen fedor get mounted?? i mean i give Silva all the respect he deserves but he hasnt fought ANYONE and basically walked through Fedor. maybe it was the size/strength difference? i guess his era of dominance is over, now he can be beat just like anyone else.
    BJJ = life

  19. Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    yea well regardless of what happens in this tournament, dont you think he has definitely lost a step? i didnt see that usual aura of confidence and invincibility, he wasnt moving as swiftly as he usually does. maybe even a little timid to strike? have you ever seen fedor get mounted?? i mean i give Silva all the respect he deserves but he hasnt fought ANYONE and basically walked through Fedor. maybe it was the size/strength difference? i guess his era of dominance is over, now he can be beat just like anyone else.
    His stand up looked just as quick & powerful, but it seemed to lack accuracy. He also didn't do his follow up TD's from his hook punches either. Maybe its been too long since Fedor's been in a highly strategic fight? It looked like Fedor was looking for the big KO/TKO the entire first round.
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  20. exactly, just like the last fight. following werdum right into his adcc champion guard.
    BJJ = life

  21. Fedor definitely looked like he was head-hunting the whole time.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

  22. Source of Fedor's Withdrawal


    Санитар поединка Емельяненко – Силва: «После второго раунда Федор сказал: «Я не могу продолжать бой» - Бокс/MMA - Sports.ru

    http://www.sports.ru/boxing/78148875.html

    Here is the translation:

    Fedor Emelianenko, who because of the strong bruising to his right eye could not continue after the second round bout against Antonio Silva, was ready to stop fighting.

    The correspondent of newspaper "Sport Express" met after the battle at the hotel with the nurse, which helped Fyodor first aid.

    "The doctor asked the soldier:" Fyodor, you can go? "- He said. But Fyodor shook his head and replied: "No, I can not."


    However, it is unlikely the doctor would let Emelianenko in the third round, even if he was eager to go hard.
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  23. jeez..who would have ever thought that Fedor would quit between rounds..
    BJJ = life

  24. It's going to be fun to see the overeem haters backpedal as fast as the fedor fanboys have
    Paging Dr. Banner. . .

  25. and what are you, an overeem fanboy? Fedor is still the G.O.A.T even though his best years are definitely behind him.
    BJJ = life

  26. Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    and what are you, an overeem fanboy?
    If believing he is the best HW in the world makes me one, then yes.
    Paging Dr. Banner. . .

  27. I'm rooting for Overeem to win the Grand Prix and if he wins he probably would technically be ranked number one, but I think Cain would beat him if they fought.
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  28. Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    I'm rooting for Overeem to win the Grand Prix and if he wins he probably would technically be ranked number one, but I think Cain would beat him if they fought.
    agreed. I think Cain is kryptonite for Reem. Good chin, great wrestling, andx a nonstop motor

  29. Quote Originally Posted by OnTheRoadTo View Post
    If believing he is the best HW in the world makes me one, then yes.
    Really? Number one HW without ever beating a top-10 HW?

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    I'm rooting for Overeem to win the Grand Prix and if he wins he probably would technically be ranked number one, but I think Cain would beat him if they fought.
    Not a Cain fan, but anyone with a good chin, dynamic wrestling, and non-stop cardio will be hell for Overeem. I'd still like to see how he does past the first round with all that extra LBM.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  30. I think we will need to see how things play out, on both accounts. The problem, for me, is that nobody in the GP will present, nor have any of the Reem's erstwhile opponents presented, enough of a wrestling threat to accurately gauge his abilities in that area.

    All that said, I think Cain's defensive boxing is vastly overrated - in fact, I think Cain's striking has been similarly untested as the Reem's wrestling. So, for me, I will need to see how their next few fights play out before making that judgment.

    In fact, and this is simply conjecture, but I do think we will have the ability to see a potential fight between the Reem and the UFC's heavies in the next year, after his SF contract runs out (and particularly provided he wins the GP). I say this as the Reem has talked recently about his desire to increase stateside exposure.
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