What I Will Never Understand: Pound-for-Pound #1

[Mulletsoldier]

Sherdog.com’s Pound-for-Pound Top 10

There is something odd about this list: namely, who is on it, in relation to who is very high on it. Somebody peer at this list, and tell me how many of Anderson Silva's last handful of opponents are on it. Now, peer at the same list, and tell me how many of GSP's last four or five opponents are on it. The defense rests its case, and the media's love-affair with A. Silva continues.

 

[mixedup]

i think a silva ranks higher because he has sucessfully beat the former champion at a higher rate and has fought in more weightclasses than GSP. I understand your reasoning about GSP with Thiago and Fitch but they are still welterweights and haven't held championships. GSP has also fought less than Anderson recently and beating BJ was a great accomplishment but in all honesty BJ is a lightweight and you can't make up the weight difference when both are talented Andersons wins have also been a bit more spectacular rnc of henderson knock out of forest GSP took 5 rounds with thiago and fitch and 4 for bj. GSP is great but i think the above are some of the considerations for silva being placed above GSP. IMO they can interchange but we all know your feelings about GSP

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I am totally bias, but with that being said, the numbers do not necessarily add up. Outside of his knockout of Forrest Griffin, Anderson's prior two fights were horrendously boring and unimpressive (Cote and Leites). As well, if one takes recent activity into consideration, they are both relatively the same.

No matter how you cut it, GSP has had superior competition over their UFC runs, and in particular, over the last two years. And Anderson finishing James Irvin, for example, would be like GSP finishing Thales Leites - i.e., unimpressive, haha.

 

[mixedup]

I am totally bias, but with that being said, the numbers do not necessarily add up. Outside of his knockout of Forrest Griffin, Anderson's prior two fights were horrendously boring and unimpressive (Cote and Leites). As well, if one takes recent activity into consideration, they are both relatively the same.

No matter how you cut it, GSP has had superior competition over their UFC runs, and in particular, over the last two years. And Anderson finishing James Irvin, for example, would be like GSP finishing Thales Leites - i.e., unimpressive, haha.

i belive in everything your saying but i also believe from sherdogs point of view the fact that through his career he's fought more weightclasses and in his ufc career he has finished former champs griffin and henderson are what put him ahead. i think if GSP had beaten some champs besides hughes and serra who he split the fights with he would be number 1

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Well, GSP has beaten four champions, MU: Sherk, BJ Penn, Matt Hughes and Serra.

 

[AE14]

I think both are the 2 best out there no doubt. I also think that the win over Forrest gets more credit than it probably does. I will also say this, GSP is about to become a victim of his own success, which will hurt him in these rankings.

Beating Hardy is truly of no consequence at all. For him to remain at 170 offers him nothing at this point. Daley? a Kos rematch? Nothing to further build the legend. He needs to move after this fight officially to 185.

Anderson, has only 1 fight remaining at 185 IMO, and that is Belfort. Once he dispatches of him, I would be hopeful for him to fight at 205, and a possible showdown with Shogun for the 205 title.

I think Anderson will stay ahead of GSP, until GSP moves up and beats better 185lbers.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I have always agreed with you on one point, AE: BJ, GSP and Anderson all need to move up simultaneously. That is the only way to render 155, 170 and 185 competitive, while also giving these superstars competitive bouts.

On the issue of Hardy, that is my problem though: Anderson somehow managed to stay at #1 on most lists in 08-09, despite barely beating Leites, and having Cote drop out.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Bj isnt big enough to move to 170.

I would disagree. BJ would challenge most, if not all, of the top WWs in the UFC aside from GSP. BJ was handling Hughes quite readily in their second fight prior to gassing, and do not let his complete dismantling by GSP in their last bout fool you: with the proper conditioning and adequate mass gain, he is an adequate size for WW.

And remember gsp got a fluke tko by serra, and andy has been untouched.

Yes, two years ago. When we are revising top ten pound-for-pound quarterly, it is difficult to take that into consideration. As well, their relative competition past that point favors GSP, I feel. I see your point, though.

Hardy can ko gsp if and i mean if he catches him...but that is his only shot

I am much more skeptical of Hardy's power than most people seem to be.

and as far as andy vs leites: you cant make a guy fight that is afraid to fight, look at the old caleb starnes vs. nate quarry fight, starnes ran the whole time and quarry did not get blammed...u got to beat the champ to be the champ, all andy has to do is show up and if his oponent wont fighthi then he would be stupid to make himself vulnerable to a gsp like situation.

That is stretch, insofar as comparing A. Silva v., Leites to Quarry v., Starnes. Anderson was listless, and had plenty of opportunities to engage.

And cote was not a boring, i dont thenk andy could have finished him honestly becoause cote took all the same power shots the destroyed everyone else and he just walked right back into andy, plus when they fought cote stayed inside on a couple of exchanges and caught andy with cuple outside hooks that landed on andy's jawline under his ears and he backed off each time, it was a shame that cote's knee went out because he was lasting with andy and actually fighting him.

I have always said Cote was doing well, so we agree, but that is not the point I was making. We are talking about relative competition - i.e., relative positions of their opponents in their respective top tens.

before gsp moves up[ i want to see him fight kos becuase kos is way better now, and other than gsp, all f kos losses are form taking fights on 2 weeks notice that no else would ever fight. and if andy moves up to 205 he would kill shogun, i men=an shogun is good but the reason he beat lyoto was becaue he countered every movemnt of lyoto's with right thai kick. andy should fight vera, bitchshaad evans, or wait for chael sonnen to heal up.

Being totally honest, this was more difficult to understand than Chinese! Haha. Punctuations are your friends. Seriously, though, the Kos fight is a complete wash with GSP: Georges does everything - and really, everything - better than Kos, and what Kos specializes in, GSP is even better. There is absolutely no point to that fight. And I think you are letting Andy's destruction of Forrest get to your head. Don't forget something that many people do: Forrest was hand-picked by the UFC to chase Anderson, and give Anderson an exciting fight.

 

[AE14]

I have always agreed with you on one point, AE: BJ, GSP and Anderson all need to move up simultaneously. That is the only way to render 155, 170 and 185 competitive, while also giving these superstars competitive bouts.

On the issue of Hardy, that is my problem though: Anderson somehow managed to stay at #1 on most lists in 08-09, despite barely beating Leites, and having Cote drop out.

All 3 need to go up, no doubt. There is nothing competitive for any of them where they are. I am bored with all 3 at this point, eventhough I love to watch them all fight. I am very excited that GSP is fighting, but against Hardy? It will look like a high school kid beating up a 1st grader. However, think about the other options for all of them moving up:

BJ v. Alves
BJ v. Fitch
GSP v. Wandy
GSP v. Maia :tongue2:
Anderson v. Shogun
Anderson v. Rampage

Just to name a few

I dont disagree that Anderson gets a bit of a pass over GSP. However, as I said, his destruction of Forrest as a former 205lbs champ, truly catapulted him to an even bigger legend, which was slightly stagnant with the fights you mentioned.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Really the only bad match-up for GSP at 185 is Chael Sonnen.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

That is a strange list, my friend! Any of the WWs in the UFC are far more interesting fights for BJ than any other LW in the world. And as for Diaz/Shields, those are also wash matches. What does either possibly bring for GSP?

As for Fitch/BJ: Fitch is a great tactical wrestler, but he has nowhere near the athleticism to retain BJ on the mat, and I am confused about the Alves comment. Do you think Thiago would take BJ down repeatedly, or BJ would take Thiago down repeatedly? I found those both highly unlikely, to be honest!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

bj would take thiago down at his will. i dont uderstand how diaz or sheilds would be a wash for gsp...but you say chael sonnen will be gsp biggest challenge...but shealds is a great wrestler too and a black belt in bjj..so how is shealds a wash....and diaz just needs his mouth shut and fighting gsp will be the only thing to do so. And fitch's tactical wrestling is only effective when he is the bigger guy.and if melendez can beat aoki..then i think he could put up a fight against bj. other than that bj would clear out ww besides gsp, gsp would clear out mw besides andy and andy could clear out lw...so why move them up just to be exciting????why not just have catchweight superfights to solidify all of their legacies? because after all of them move up and destroy everyone again..then why watch ufc anymore??

What fight and/or instance in BJ's career has given you the indication that he is a world-class wrestler, capable of taking Thiago down? If Kos, by all indications the second-best wrestling WW in the division, cannot take Thiago down as a natural WW, than BJ's chances are slim. Penn's wrestling is by no means horrible, but it is certainly not of the caliber that would allow him to push through Thiago's sprawl. In reality, Thiago is the worst match-up for BJ at WW aside from GSP: his sprawl is too good, his hands are too dangerous, and he is too big. In terms of Melendez, whether or not he gets through Aoki is probably irrelevant: he does not match-up stylistically with BJ, and it would not be a competitive bout.

Shields is an adequate wrestler, but GSP is far superior in every way shape and form - particularly considering Shield cannot strike, could not avoid GSP's TDs, and they are both freestyle wrestlers. Sonnen, on the other hand, is a smothering Couture-esque Grecco-Roman wrestler that could potentially stymie GSP's athleticism, precisely in the way that he did to Marquardt. Other than that, Sonnen is also a) a better wrestler than Shields b) a bigger individual than Shields and c) has better hands than Shields. In terms of Diaz, he has shown almost no improvement in his TD defense where, in the UFC, he was taken down by Karo, Diego, Riggs, Sherk, etc. And GSP's crisper, more accurate and more diverse striking game would pick apart Diaz's looping boxing - it would be a wash.

With regard to each superstar moving up, I think you have too much faith in Anderson at LHW. I cannot stress this enough, but: Forrest Griffin was tailor-made for A. Silva's style, and this was something we all recognized when it happened. In a Shogun v., Silva fight, I would take Shogun!

 

[AE14]

What fight and/or instance in BJ's career has given you the indication that he is a world-class wrestler, capable of taking Thiago down? If Kos, by all indications the second-best wrestling WW in the division, cannot take Thiago down as a natural WW, than BJ's chances are slim. Penn's wrestling is by no means horrible, but it is certainly not of the caliber that would allow him to push through Thiago's sprawl. In reality, Thiago is the worst match-up for BJ at WW aside from GSP: his sprawl is too good, his hands are too dangerous, and he is too big. In terms of Melendez, whether or not he gets through Aoki is probably irrelevant: he does not match-up stylistically with BJ, and it would not be a competitive bout.

there is no one at 155lbs that will beat BJ nor make it competitive imo. I like Melendez a great deal, and I dont think it would look any different than the Florian fight. I actually believe Florian is probably #2 at 155lbs and he looked downright silly.

Couldnt agree more about a Alves/BJ fight. BJ would need to be very careful as Alves physically is so much bigger than he is, and is so damn powerful. That doesnt mean BJ loses, just would be a tough fight.

Shields is an adequate wrestler, but GSP is far superior in every way shape and form - particularly considering Shield cannot strike, could not avoid GSP's TDs, and they are both freestyle wrestlers. Sonnen, on the other hand, is a smothering Couture-esque Grecco-Roman wrestler that could potentially stymie GSP's athleticism, precisely in the way that he did to Marquardt. Other than that, Sonnen is also a) a better wrestler than Shields b) a bigger individual than Shields and c) has better hands than Shields. In terms of Diaz, he has shown almost no improvement in his TD defense where, in the UFC, he was taken down by Karo, Diego, Riggs, Sherk, etc. And GSP's crisper, more accurate and more diverse striking game would pick apart Diaz's looping boxing - it would be a wash.

for anyone to think Diaz and/or Shields would do better v. GSP than a larger 185lber is fooling themselves. I am not impressed at all with Shields on his feet. Hell, GSP wouldnt need to take the fight to the ground at all. Does anyone remember Shields v. Daley prior to the sub? Shields was getting dominated on the feet, and was throwing awkward shots in Daley's direction out of preservation.
In terms of Diaz, come on? I respect him as a fighter, but not a chance.

With regard to each superstar moving up, I think you have too much faith in Anderson at LHW. I cannot stress this enough, but: Forrest Griffin was tailor-made for A. Silva's style, and this was something we all recognized when it happened. In a Shogun v., Silva fight, I would take Shogun!

I think a heaalthy and focused Shogun would be very difficult. At this point I actually think he will beat Machida. 205lbs would be wide open for Anderson, that would be much more competitive than 185lbs for Anderson.

If he stays, he fights Belfort and Sonnen, and?

I think MS we need to start a petition and gets this ball rolling

 

[mixedup]

That is a strange list, my friend! Any of the WWs in the UFC are far more interesting fights for BJ than any other LW in the world. And as for Diaz/Shields, those are also wash matches. What does either possibly bring for GSP?

As for Fitch/BJ: Fitch is a great tactical wrestler, but he has nowhere near the athleticism to retain BJ on the mat, and I am confused about the Alves comment. Do you think Thiago would take BJ down repeatedly, or BJ would take Thiago down repeatedly? I found those both highly unlikely, to be honest!

HEY NOW NEVER count out a CESAR GRACIE FIGHTER!!!!!! OOPS I'm showing my team bias lol And for Shields I feel his pure submission wrestling is better than fitch he has beaten him in grappling matches FITCH went 5 rounds with GSP even though GSP won I feel Jake would bring more to the table than Fitch does. Diaz Range Length and amount of punches he throws also offers something different than GSP has faced before. NOT saying they would handle GSP but they do bring something different that GSP hasn't faced before and styles make fights as you know

 

[mixedup]

for anyone to think Diaz and/or Shields would do better v. GSP than a larger 185lber is fooling themselves. I am not impressed at all with Shields on his feet. Hell, GSP wouldnt need to take the fight to the ground at all. Does anyone remember Shields v. Daley prior to the sub? Shields was getting dominated on the feet, and was throwing awkward shots in Daley's direction out of preservation.
In terms of Diaz, come on? I respect him as a fighter, but not a chance.

Shiels standup doesn't look impressive to people until you actually have to spar with him trust me he's been trained by Fairtex one of the TOP MT camps in the WORLD for a decade. His Boxing coach is on point and judging his skills against Daley. Daley is a standup machine GSP doesn't have that kind of standup. Shields is a LARGE 170lbs remember he fought at 185lbs for a long long time.

Ofcourse like mullet knows i am very biased since i fly cesars flag

 

[AE14]

Shiels standup doesn't look impressive to people until you actually have to spar with him trust me he's been trained by Fairtex one of the TOP MT camps in the WORLD for a decade. His Boxing coach is on point and judging his skills against Daley. Daley is a standup machine GSP doesn't have that kind of standup. Shields is a LARGE 170lbs remember he fought at 185lbs for a long long time.

Ofcourse like mullet knows i am very biased since i fly cesars flag

I totally understand the bias

However, I just dont see much with Shields overall. I give credit where it is due, his ground game is phenomenal, however overall I dont see him offering much against GSP. He can change my mind though, specifically by beating Hendo in April. Although I dont see that happening

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Shiels standup doesn't look impressive to people until you actually have to spar with him trust me he's been trained by Fairtex one of the TOP MT camps in the WORLD for a decade. His Boxing coach is on point and judging his skills against Daley. Daley is a standup machine GSP doesn't have that kind of standup. Shields is a LARGE 170lbs remember he fought at 185lbs for a long long time.

Ofcourse like mullet knows i am very biased since i fly cesars flag

For sure, which is okay! I am so biased for GSP it is probably disgusting. This being said, I am unsure Daley's striking is "better" than GSP's per se: more powerful, I would say, but certainly not "better." Daley is a classic British brawler with, by all indications, more stand-up power than GSP, but to imply that GSP's quality of stand-up is lesser is a stretch. Not claiming it would be wise for GSP to stand-and-trade with Daley, but, you have to remember something: GSP crushed BJ, Fitch and even Alves on the feet with his pure speed, athleticism, but probably most importantly, by intelligently using the fear of his TD as an advantage.

 

[mixedup]

For sure, which is okay! I am so biased for GSP it is probably disgusting. This being said, I am unsure Daley's striking is "better" than GSP's per se: more powerful, I would say, but certainly not "better." Daley is a classic British brawler with, by all indications, more stand-up power than GSP, but to imply that GSP's quality of stand-up is lesser is a stretch. Not claiming it would be wise for GSP to stand-and-trade with Daley, but, you have to remember something: GSP crushed BJ, Fitch and even Alves on the feet with his pure speed, athleticism, but probably most importantly, by intelligently using the fear of his TD as an advantage.

Better may have not been the right word. GSP is so adaptable that his striking is great for his overall mma game. However in pure striking i think that Daley probally has the upper hand just due to training and experience He's more of a muay thai convert where as GSP is a MMA machine.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I can 100% agree with that.

 

[Kegger]

I've always said that Fedor is the p4p best. There are a lot of variables that need to be looked at when determining the p4p best. Fight record, skill level, athleticism, mental toughness, adaptability, and IMO fighting bigger fighters than yourself. When looking at all of these, Fedor stands out the most. I think the thing that stands out most about him is that no one has "realistically" beat him yet. In all his years in MMA, there has not been a man to be able to figure out how to beat or finish him.....he is that good. That's why he has the best fight record in the p4p list.

His skill level is also top notch. He is a true mixed martial artist. I have more respect for guys that have a really good mix of KO's and submissions. He has 8 KO's and 16 submissions, which means he is a danger anywhere.

I think Fedor is also the best at mental toughness. In all his fights, I've never seen him lose his temper, panic, or look like the fight has been taken out of him. He comes in with a great game plan every fight and executes it pretty damn good.

His adaptability is excellent too. If his game plan isn't working the way he wanted it, he adapts to his oppenents weakness and exploits it. I'm fairly certain that his game plan was to constantly take Cro Cop town and gnp him when they fought. But when he realized that he was outstriking the deadliest heavyweight striker, he kept it on the feet for a great portion of the fight.

In the p4p list, there isn't anyone that even comes close to Fedor when it comes to fighting bigger fighters. I know BJ even fought heavyweight a while back, and Silva has fought at 205 a couple times. But Fedor is the smaller guy at least 95% of the time. Quite often, he is outweighed by 20-30 pounds. Think about it, that would be like BJ fighting the worlds best middleweights almost every fight. And we saw how much weight and strength comes into play when the worlds best 155er goes up one weight class to take on the worlds best at 170. Size and strength do play a part. And for the smaller fighter like Fedor to win every single time, is saying a lot.


There is also one other important thing here I want to mention that no one seems to realize. All the fighters on this list except Fedor, travel around and train with many of the best fighters in the world. Fighting out of camps like Greg Jackson, ATT, or AKA allows a fighter to train with many other prominent fighters.....that allows you to learn from them and grow as a fighter. Most of the fighters will bring in another fighter outside of their camp to help them train for a fight. Or they will travel to another gym to learn from other fighters. Fedor does not do this. He has always trained with pretty much the same guys at his gym. How he can continue to stay the best without learning from other fighters or camps, is beyond me. That's just another testament to how good he really is.

 

[Vtaper]

Unforntunatly we probably never will see Fedor against the cream of the crop heavyweights because of his mangement who only care about pushing their crap M-1 name.

He's still my top p4p.

 

[TheMouth]

The P4P list is merely so people like us can argue about it. =)


PS -- Hi.