Shogun/Machida Petition

[Rodja]

Feel free to join this. I doubt it will do much, but it's better than nothing.

Overturn UFC 104 Machida vs Shogun decision Petition

 

[VolcomX311]

Totally signed it :zx11pissed:

 

[Jasen]

why?

 

[Jayhawkk]

There are a lot of fights that seem to go the wrong way. Not gonna go on a petition spree on each fight or team sport that should have been different. good luck to you wanting to get it changed though.

 

[Rodja]

I know that there is a human element involved whenever a fight goes to a decision, but this one is going to linger for awhile because it is almost universally viewed with disdain and it was a championship fight. I have read 1 person saying that Machida won and that was Anderson Silva who is also a very close friend and training partner.

I honestly don't expect anything to come of it, but I really hope that the judging criterion is at least reviewed in the near future.

 

[VolcomX311]

I know that there is a human element involved whenever a fight goes to a decision, but this one is going to linger for awhile because it is almost universally viewed with disdain and it was a championship fight. I have read 1 person saying that Machida won and that was Anderson Silva who is also a very close friend and training partner.

I honestly don't expect anything to come of it, but I really hope that the judging criterion is at least reviewed in the near future.

That was my main point in the comments section. I know that nobody's belt is being turned over, but my goal was to criticize the judging criterion in hopes that it would under greater scrutiny & revision.

 

[VolcomX311]

There are a lot of fights that seem to go the wrong way. Not gonna go on a petition spree on each fight or team sport that should have been different. good luck to you wanting to get it changed though.

Your dog is awesome.

 

[dekd]

The fight ruling can't be overturned but there is already a rematch announced

 

[Mulletsoldier]

The fight ruling can't be overturned but there is already a rematch announced

Well, this is not true. The CSAC has provisions in place to overturn decisions, but only exercises this option in rare circumstances: drug-use, referee/judge profiteering, made fights and the like. You are right, though, that this particular decision will not be overturned. I feel the general aim of a petition of this sort is to draw the ire of the 'Commish in order to revitalize the judging and scoring criterion.

 

[Beater]

seriously...a petition. lol

 

[Rodja]

seriously...a petition. lol

More invaluable input from the mental colossus here...

 

[Beater]

I am just saying, a petition to change the outcome of a fight? This stuff is not that serious lol. Whether the decision was correct or not a petition is laughable like this fight affects our whole countries future or something. I am sure that Dana will take a long hard look at that petition and seriously take into consideration all the random names that wanted Shogun to win and change the whole scoring system lol.

Just watch the fight, accept the missed call and then bitch about it like every other male that has watched sports since the beginning of time. A petition is getting a little too.............not fun.

 

[sp447]

I am just saying, a petition to change the outcome of a fight? This stuff is not that serious lol. Whether the decision was correct or not a petition is laughable like this fight affects our whole countries future or something. I am sure that Dana will take a long hard look at that petition and seriously take into consideration all the random names that wanted Shogun to win and change the whole scoring system lol.

Just watch the fight, accept the missed call and then bitch about it like every other male that has watched sports since the beginning of time. A petition is getting a little too.............not fun.

With people like you in this country, it's not wonder sh!t doesn't get done. People get dissatisfied with sh!t and they sit around and expect it to change.

I hope your not a political activist or any kind of activist, because with you nothing would get done.


I signed it BTW

 

[Beater]

With people like you in this country, it's not wonder sh!t doesn't get done. People get dissatisfied with sh!t and they sit around and expect it to change.

I hope your not a political activist or any kind of activist, because with you nothing would get done.


I signed it BTW

You have hurt my feelings tremendously with this post.

Expect what to change? Dissatisfied? Political activists? You realize that we are talking about a petition to change the outcome of a sporting event right?

 

[SELFofGOD]

I watched this fight , and the only thing I can say about the UFC is that it has simply filled the void between Boxing and Wresteling.
Just one more corrupt sporting event.
No more no less than Boxing or the WWE or WWF or whatever they call themselfs now.

The UFC needs to change its name as it is no longer what it was meant to be.
Now it is just ....lets see how much money we can make off of these poor bastads...

 

[Rodja]

You have hurt my feelings tremendously with this post.

Expect what to change? Dissatisfied? Political activists? You realize that we are talking about a petition to change the outcome of a sporting event right?

You're really missing the point, but you're obviously too stubborn to see the actual hope of this.

 

[Beater]

You're really missing the point, but you're obviously too stubborn to see the actual hope of this.

No I am not missing the point. I see the hope of it and I see the principle of it. However, I am a realist and sporting events left up to judges have always been controversial. Look at the Mr Universe Competition, figure skating, boxing, line judges in Tennis and every other sport. It's part of life for things to be that way. We must accept it or get all bent out of shape and petition. I personally choose to accept it and move on in this particular instance. Now if the next president loses the popular vote but still wins the election again, then I will get bent out of shape.

 

[Rodja]

No I am not missing the point. I see the hope of it and I see the principle of it. However, I am a realist and sporting events left up to judges have always been controversial. Look at the Mr Universe Competition, figure skating, boxing, line judges in Tennis and every other sport. It's part of life for things to be that way. We must accept it or get all bent out of shape and petition. I personally choose to accept it and move on in this particular instance. Now if the next president loses the popular vote but still wins the election again, then I will get bent out of shape.

You see that the hope of this is to effectively outline a judging criteria?

 

[andykb]

Mate I completely agree about the fight being an absolute rort. Should petition for a rematch though as an overturn is never going to happen.

 

[Rodja]

Mate I completely agree about the fight being an absolute rort. Should petition for a rematch though as an overturn is never going to happen.

Rematch is already scheduled. ETA is up in the air due to Machida's hand surgery.

 

[andykb]

Rematch is already scheduled. ETA is up in the air due to Machida's hand surgery.

Awesome, will be watching

 

[sp447]

No I am not missing the point. I see the hope of it and I see the principle of it. However, I am a realist and sporting events left up to judges have always been controversial. Look at the Mr Universe Competition, figure skating, boxing, line judges in Tennis and every other sport. It's part of life for things to be that way. We must accept it or get all bent out of shape and petition. I personally choose to accept it and move on in this particular instance. Now if the next president loses the popular vote but still wins the election again, then I will get bent out of shape.

The point of this is not not just to provide justice to the rightful winner of this fight, but to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

The more this kind of stuff happens, the more credibility the sport loses, and the sport of MMA doesn't need anymore negative attention.

That's why boxing is pretty much on life support, when you have bull**** decisions like Diaz/Malignaggi and Froch/Dirrell, scumbags like Don King and corruption everywhere.

So we should just deal with it and move on while it continues to suffer and people continue to get robbed of their livelihoods? That ridiculous.

 

[Beater]

You see that the hope of this is to effectively outline a judging criteria?

In the link to the petition I see no outline for judging criteria. I know that you want the judging criteria changed but signing a petition (and not even signing but typing) is not going to make that happen.

 

[Beater]

The point of this is not not just to provide justice to the rightful winner of this fight, but to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

The more this kind of stuff happens, the more credibility the sport loses, and the sport of MMA doesn't need anymore negative attention.

That's why boxing is pretty much on life support, when you have bull**** decisions like Diaz/Malignaggi and Froch/Dirrell, scumbags like Don King and corruption everywhere.

So we should just deal with it and move on while it continues to suffer and people continue to get robbed of their livelihoods? That ridiculous.

In my opinion the sport doesn't have much credibility. Do you know how many fighters have been busted taking roids. Now think about how many have gotten away with it. I watch it. I am entertained by it and that is where it ends. I am way more knowledgeable that the average fan and have trained. But lets be real, the next fight will be DMX vs that guy with no arms or legs. Or perhaps Jose Caseco vs Dana White. Its all about entertainment and money.

 

[Rodja]

In my opinion the sport doesn't have much credibility. Do you know how many fighters have been busted taking roids. Now think about how many have gotten away with it. I watch it. I am entertained by it and that is where it ends. I am way more knowledgeable that the average fan and have trained. But lets be real, the next fight will be DMX vs that guy with no arms or legs. Or perhaps Jose Caseco vs Dana White. Its all about entertainment and money.

This makes absolutely no sense. Name any sport that does not have athletes on PEDs...go ahead, I'll wait for awhile...

Using your logic, the NFL lacks credibility because of the Lingerie Football League. It's a capitalistic society and many people will try to take advantage of any market for financial gain. Last time I checked, it's all about the money.

 

[Beater]

This makes absolutely no sense. Name any sport that does not have athletes on PEDs...go ahead, I'll wait for awhile...

Using your logic, the NFL lacks credibility because of the Lingerie Football League. It's a capitalistic society and many people will try to take advantage of any market for financial gain. Last time I checked, it's all about the money.

golf

I agree with you. This is a capitilistic society and I do believe that it is about the money. Thats why a petition is not realistic. Your passion is admirable. I do agree that if there was corruption involved then they need to be banned for life, lay down the hammer just like baseball did to the White Sox way back in the day. However, all I am saying is our internet petition is not gonna work in this case. If there is money to be made, corruption will be there and it will take a whole lot more than some internet "signatures". Now if it was just idiocy that he won, well, that just happens sometimes.

 

[Rodja]

golf

I agree with you. This is a capitilistic society and I do believe that it is about the money. Thats why a petition is not realistic. Your passion is admirable. I do agree that if there was corruption involved then they need to be banned for life, lay down the hammer just like baseball did to the White Sox way back in the day. However, all I am saying is our internet petition is not gonna work in this case. If there is money to be made, corruption will be there and it will take a whole lot more than some internet "signatures". Now if it was just idiocy that he won, well, that just happens sometimes.

There was a golfer that was busted for PED just a few months ago. Get your facts straight.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

golf

I agree with you. This is a capitilistic society and I do believe that it is about the money. Thats why a petition is not realistic. Your passion is admirable. I do agree that if there was corruption involved then they need to be banned for life, lay down the hammer just like baseball did to the White Sox way back in the day. However, all I am saying is our internet petition is not gonna work in this case. If there is money to be made, corruption will be there and it will take a whole lot more than some internet "signatures". Now if it was just idiocy that he won, well, that just happens sometimes.

I think your points are consistent in-themselves, but in the interest of accuracy, let me say a few words on the issue. First, corruption, collusion and coercion, in my opinion, are not the "focus" of this petition, but rather; the focus is establishing a fairer, more accurate set of judging criteria which takes into account the nuances of the sports, including, though not limited to: leg and body strikes, transitioning, submission attempts, action after a TD and so forth. Thus, the purpose of the "petition" is not to rescind the decision as it is, but simply to shed light on the inadequacies of the present criteria through which Machida legally won. Second, and as for the hypothetical efficacy of the petition, I would have to disagree: the judges and the judging criteria itself are implemented and established by the respective region's athletic commission, and not selected by the UFC; and thus, unless we assume collusion, corruption and the like, money is not as large a factor in the selection of both judges and criteria as you imply. This being the case, and the despite the uncommonly useless nature of government, I find the petition much more efficacious than, say, a similar type of initiative being directed a private sports entity such as the NFL.

As for the credibility of the sport, this is nonsense: the legitimization process is not forged and destroyed on internet message boards - it is forged, even if this is only a reflection of popular opinion, in the advertising board room. To that end, more legitimate and mainstream sponsors - see Gatorade, Bud Light, Under Armour, CBS, etc - are endorsing both individual fighters and the UFC as a whole; wholly indicative of their belief that the sport is precipitously approaching "mainstream status" with the ever-elusive 18-34 male demographic - the advertiser's "wet dream". Though, I think you said that to be polemic, rather than to make a honest point.

 

[Beater]

There was a golfer that was busted for PED just a few months ago. Get your facts straight.

"A golfer" lol. Yeah it appears to be a serious problem.

 

[Beater]

I think your points are consistent in-themselves, but in the interest of accuracy, let me say a few words on the issue. First, corruption, collusion and coercion, in my opinion, are not the "focus" of this petition, but rather; the focus is establishing a fairer, more accurate set of judging criteria which takes into account the nuances of the sports, including, though not limited to: leg and body strikes, transitioning, submission attempts, action after a TD and so forth. Thus, the purpose of the "petition" is not to rescind the decision as it is, but simply to shed light on the inadequacies of the present criteria through which Machida legally won. Second, and as for the hypothetical efficacy of the petition, I would have to disagree: the judges and the judging criteria itself are implemented and established by the respective region's athletic commission, and not selected by the UFC; and thus, unless we assume collusion, corruption and the like, money is not as large a factor in the selection of both judges and criteria as you imply. This being the case, and the despite the uncommonly useless nature of government, I find the petition much more efficacious than, say, a similar type of initiative being directed a private sports entity such as the NFL.

As for the credibility of the sport, this is nonsense: the legitimization process is not forged and destroyed on internet message boards - it is forged, even if this is only a reflection of popular opinion, in the advertising board room. To that end, more legitimate and mainstream sponsors - see Gatorade, Bud Light, Under Armour, CBS, etc - are endorsing both individual fighters and the UFC as a whole; wholly indicative of their belief that the sport is precipitously approaching "mainstream status" with the ever-elusive 18-34 male demographic - the advertiser's "wet dream". Though, I think you said that to be polemic, rather than to make a honest point.

Nice post. Is there an explanation as to why Machida legally won? Is there a breakdown of how he scored more points? When I spoke about the hypothetical corruption I was not saying that the UFC was directly involved nor the state. But I am not saying they weren't either. Corruption is anywhere money is involved. Remember the NBA ref that got busted gambling. That is corruption that one individual was involved in.

As for the scoring criteria I can see how it would be flawed. It is a fight and bottom line I think it should be about who does the most damage. However that is always up to interpretation so a scoring system had to be established based on wrestling, striking, submissions and whatever else they look at. The fighters know the rules before going into the cage.

I really don't understand points for takedowns or near submissions. Either you capitalize with some GNP or a submission. They established the judging criteria to make it more fair for all styles of fighters and that is the sport we know as MMA.

 

[Rodja]

Nice post. Is there an explanation as to why Machida legally won? Is there a breakdown of how he scored more points? When I spoke about the hypothetical corruption I was not saying that the UFC was directly involved nor the state. But I am not saying they weren't either. Corruption is anywhere money is involved. Remember the NBA ref that got busted gambling. That is corruption that one individual was involved in.

As for the scoring criteria I can see how it would be flawed. It is a fight and bottom line I think it should be about who does the most damage. However that is always up to interpretation so a scoring system had to be established based on wrestling, striking, submissions and whatever else they look at. The fighters know the rules before going into the cage.

I really don't understand points for takedowns or near submissions. Either you capitalize with some GNP or a submission. They established the judging criteria to make it more fair for all styles of fighters and that is the sport we know as MMA.

You're completely wrong in this sense. There is absolutely NO definition as to what is more important in the unified rules. Cumulative damage is not a criteria, so you've just displayed your ignorance right there and the unified rules has not effectively outlined a criteria for striking, TD, grapplinf, submissions, etc.

Basically, you don't understand the intricacies of judging, so stay out of thread based upon revising the judging of MMA. Keep "training" to beat a 145 lb woman...

 

[Beater]

I think your points are consistent in-themselves, but in the interest of accuracy, let me say a few words on the issue. First, corruption, collusion and coercion, in my opinion, are not the "focus" of this petition, but rather; the focus is establishing a fairer, more accurate set of judging criteria which takes into account the nuances of the sports, including, though not limited to: leg and body strikes, transitioning, submission attempts, action after a TD and so forth. Thus, the purpose of the "petition" is not to rescind the decision as it is, but simply to shed light on the inadequacies of the present criteria through which Machida legally won. Second, and as for the hypothetical efficacy of the petition, I would have to disagree: the judges and the judging criteria itself are implemented and established by the respective region's athletic commission, and not selected by the UFC; and thus, unless we assume collusion, corruption and the like, money is not as large a factor in the selection of both judges and criteria as you imply. This being the case, and the despite the uncommonly useless nature of government, I find the petition much more efficacious than, say, a similar type of initiative being directed a private sports entity such as the NFL.

As for the credibility of the sport, this is nonsense: the legitimization process is not forged and destroyed on internet message boards - it is forged, even if this is only a reflection of popular opinion, in the advertising board room. To that end, more legitimate and mainstream sponsors - see Gatorade, Bud Light, Under Armour, CBS, etc - are endorsing both individual fighters and the UFC as a whole; wholly indicative of their belief that the sport is precipitously approaching "mainstream status" with the ever-elusive 18-34 male demographic - the advertiser's "wet dream". Though, I think you said that to be polemic, rather than to make a honest point.

Nice post. Is there an explanation as to why Machida legally won? Is there a breakdown of how he scored more points? When I spoke about the hypothetical corruption I was not saying that the UFC was directly involved nor the state. But I am not saying they weren't either. Corruption is anywhere money is involved. Remember the NBA ref that got busted gambling. That is corruption that one individual was involved in.

As for the scoring criteria I can see how it would be flawed. It is a fight and bottom line I think it should be about who does the most damage. However that is always up to interpretation so a scoring system had to be established based on wrestling, striking, submissions and whatever else they look at. The fighters know the rules before going into the cage.

I really don't understand points for takedowns or near submissions. Either you capitalize with some GNP or a submission. They established the judging criteria to make it more fair for all styles of fighters and that is the sport we know as MMA.

 

[Beater]

You're completely wrong in this sense. There is absolutely NO definition as to what is more important in the unified rules. Cumulative damage is not a criteria, so you've just displayed your ignorance right there and the unified rules has not effectively outlined a criteria for striking, TD, grapplinf, submissions, etc.

Basically, you don't understand the intricacies of judging, so stay out of thread based upon revising the judging of MMA. Keep "training" to beat a 145 lb woman...

sorry for the double post up there.

Rodja, post like yours are exaclty why people don't like you. You don't read what the other says and then you write a condescending post. Basically you are the internet version of a windbag.

Anyhoo, nowhere in my post did I say that cumulative damage is what a decision is based on. Actually nowhere in my post did I mention cumulative damage. As far as strking, grappling and submissions being the scoring criteria, I would like to hear what I am missing with that one. Does entrance music go into the equation somewhere? I am pretty sure every judge there knows he is there to judge a fight which includes the 3 general areas previously mentioned

Sorry but if you want the judges to conform to some certain set of rules and point scoring system like wrestling and basically be scorekeepers then you need to find a different sport to watch. The thing about judges whether they be legal judges, dog show judges, bodybuilding judges is that they decide who wins and loses. It is up to their interpretation. Thats why ther are split decisions.

But go ahead and post your petition and suck the fun out of it just like you do everything else.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Nice post. Is there an explanation as to why Machida legally won? Is there a breakdown of how he scored more points? When I spoke about the hypothetical corruption I was not saying that the UFC was directly involved nor the state. But I am not saying they weren't either. Corruption is anywhere money is involved. Remember the NBA ref that got busted gambling. That is corruption that one individual was involved in.

Oh, certainly some corruption is involved somewhere; my greater point was that, in my unverified opinion, the corruption of judges employing the Unified MMA rules does not appear to be systemic - if it were, we would see far more suspect decisions in fights of high magnitude.

As for Machida, the one judge to vocalize his reasoning, Cecil Peoples, claimed he delivered the more damaging strikes, controlled the Octagon with greater precision, and demonstrated more effective grappling by "stuffing" Machida's TDs.

As for the scoring criteria I can see how it would be flawed. It is a fight and bottom line I think it should be about who does the most damage. However that is always up to interpretation so a scoring system had to be established based on wrestling, striking, submissions and whatever else they look at. The fighters know the rules before going into the cage.

Well, I think the issue is that they do not: prior to entering the fifth round, both Machida's and Rua's corner informed each respective fighter that, "they were winning" I think that speaks to the ambiguity of the judging process. If there were a clearer process, or even an displayed round-by-round system like Olympic boxing, this ambiguity would be removed.

I really don't understand points for takedowns or near submissions. Either you capitalize with some GNP or a submission. They established the judging criteria to make it more fair for all styles of fighters and that is the sport we know as MMA.

Again, I think the issue is ambiguity here: should "stuffing" a takedown while not improving your position after count as "effective grappling"? Whereas securing a TD but not improving your position and/or effectively ground-and-pounding should not? I think these are the types of pertinent questions which need to be raised; particularly when the inherent flaws of the system become apparent in a fight of this magnitude.

 

[Rodja]

sorry for the double post up there.

Rodja, post like yours are exaclty why people don't like you. You don't read what the other says and then you write a condescending post. Basically you are the internet version of a windbag.

Anyhoo, nowhere in my post did I say that cumulative damage is what a decision is based on. Actually nowhere in my post did I mention cumulative damage. As far as strking, grappling and submissions being the scoring criteria, I would like to hear what I am missing with that one. Does entrance music go into the equation somewhere? I am pretty sure every judge there knows he is there to judge a fight which includes the 3 general areas previously mentioned

Sorry but if you want the judges to conform to some certain set of rules and point scoring system like wrestling and basically be scorekeepers then you need to find a different sport to watch. The thing about judges whether they be legal judges, dog show judges, bodybuilding judges is that they decide who wins and loses. It is up to their interpretation. Thats why ther are split decisions.

But go ahead and post your petition and suck the fun out of it just like you do everything else.

"Graapling" in and of itself is a broad term since there are many styles of grappling and there are several other points in the judging (aggression, octagon control, etc.). Should a clean judo throw count for more than a bad single-leg? Is a sweep scored higher than a TD? Nowhere is this outlined.

They need to define what effective striking truly is. That's the basis of the backlash. As far as actual headshots is concerned, the fight was pretty close. However, it was the leg/body shots that Shogun landed that dictated the fight. There is just not a criteria on how to judge all strikes.

Stick to the issue and stop the personal attacks. It's ironic how you call me condescending, yet talk **** to me.