DOES BENCH = PUNCH POWER

mcssassin

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asumeing one knows how to throw a proper power punch does the more you bench nessesarly = how hard u hit?
 
rubberring

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Ummm... have you ever watched a professional flyweight boxing match? I'd be surprised if any of those guys could bench over 200 lbs... but I wouldn't step into the ring with one of them.:lol:
 

Jeff

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Ummm... have you ever watched a professional flyweight boxing match? I'd be surprised if any of those guys could bench over 200 lbs... but I wouldn't step into the ring with one of them.:lol:
Damn straight, Terri Moss is one of the trainers at my gym. She is a current world champ and I don't think she ways 90 lbs wet, but she hits like a freakin' hammer.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnSxWWakOyk&feature=channel_page"]YouTube - bad pads with World Champion Terri Moss[/ame]
 

Mr.50

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I have seen absolutely no correlation between bench press and punching power in 20 years involved in boxing.
 
mixedup

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Nope none at all i've been involved in MMA over a decade with Fairtex and the Gracies now and punching comes alot of technique and some people just have heavy hands nothing to do with Bench
 
VolcomX311

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Power is primarily derived from your hips. Benching, even "power lift" benching, is still primarily a factor of strength. Though strength & power have correlations, at their core, they're two separate concepts.
 
ShakesAllDay

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asumeing one knows how to throw a proper power punch does the more you bench nessesarly = how hard u hit?
The more power you can create the harder you will hit. Power = strength x speed.

For example, there are powerlifters who lift a whole lot of weight (max strength), but cannot generate a lot of power with lighter weight.

Vice versa - Olympic weight lifters may not have as high of strength as powerlifters, but they generate a whole lot more power with a given weight.
 

Jordinator

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I think it's more about overall muscle coordination.
 
poison

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The more power you can create the harder you will hit. Power = strength x speed.

For example, there are powerlifters who lift a whole lot of weight (max strength), but cannot generate a lot of power with lighter weight.

Vice versa - Olympic weight lifters may not have as high of strength as powerlifters, but they generate a whole lot more power with a given weight.
There it is.
 
Mulletsoldier

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The more power you can create the harder you will hit. Power = strength x speed.

For example, there are powerlifters who lift a whole lot of weight (max strength), but cannot generate a lot of power with lighter weight.

Vice versa - Olympic weight lifters may not have as high of strength as powerlifters, but they generate a whole lot more power with a given weight.
Definitely. "Maximum strength" is more or less a direct representation of the [particular] muscle's ability to isometrically contract with maximum force - or, put otherwise: its maximum potential output of force [or ability to do work]. In essence, what we consider "strength" in bodybuilding terms if nothing more than applied force, irrespective of distance/time.

"Maximum power", on the other hand, is the amalgam of both force [maximum strength] and velocity [maximum speed] between two given points - or, put otherwise: the maximum amount of force the muscle can generate in, say, 200 msec (eg.)

Now, putting this together with your example: the world's top bench-presser may generate more foot-pounds of torque [the scalar measurement of force] throughout the length of his record-setting bench press, but due to the relative length of the lift, the world's top clean and jerk lifter generates more speed [the scalar measurement of velocity] by moving a particular weight over a particular distance faster than the bench-presser - as a result, he is said to have more "Maximum Power" because he generated force more quickly, while the bench presser is said to have more "Maximum Strength" because he generated more force in total. Ultimately, it boils down to muscle efficiency: how much force is being generated over a particular period - the "rate of work".

Correlating this all with MMA, somebody's KO power is ultimately determined by their muscular efficiency - again, their ability to generate force at a particular rate. So, while other 205'ers may have better physiques than Chuck, and be able to lift more in 'X,Y,Z' lift, his muscular efficiency allows him to generate maximum contractile force in his muscles in a very short period - allowing him to deliver more force in a .5 second period than, say, Vitor Belfort, despite the fact Vitor Belfort can probably generate more force overall.

This is why the top MMA trainers focus much more on ballistic/dynamic training rather than standard weight-training: because the necessity for power takes precedent over the necessity for strength in most instances. I mean, if you are "stronger" than your opponent on the mat, but he can generate more power in a given period, that means he will out-power you in most instances.
 

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Definitely. "Maximum strength" is more or less a direct representation of the [particular] muscle's ability to isometrically contract with maximum force - or, put otherwise: its maximum potential output of force [or ability to do work]. In essence, what we consider "strength" in bodybuilding terms if nothing more than applied force, irrespective of distance/time.

"Maximum power", on the other hand, is the amalgam of both force [maximum strength] and velocity [maximum speed] between two given points - or, put otherwise: the maximum amount of force the muscle can generate in, say, 200 msec (eg.)

Now, putting this together with your example: the world's top bench-presser may generate more foot-pounds of torque [the scalar measurement of force] throughout the length of his record-setting bench press, but due to the relative length of the lift, the world's top clean and jerk lifter generates more speed [the scalar measurement of velocity] by moving a particular weight over a particular distance faster than the bench-presser - as a result, he is said to have more "Maximum Power" because he generated force more quickly, while the bench presser is said to have more "Maximum Strength" because he generated more force in total. Ultimately, it boils down to muscle efficiency: how much force is being generated over a particular period - the "rate of work".

Correlating this all with MMA, somebody's KO power is ultimately determined by their muscular efficiency - again, their ability to generate force at a particular rate. So, while other 205'ers may have better physiques than Chuck, and be able to lift more in 'X,Y,Z' lift, his muscular efficiency allows him to generate maximum contractile force in his muscles in a very short period - allowing him to deliver more force in a .5 second period than, say, Vitor Belfort, despite the fact Vitor Belfort can probably generate more force overall.

This is why the top MMA trainers focus much more on ballistic/dynamic training rather than standard weight-training: because the necessity for power takes precedent over the necessity for strength in most instances. I mean, if you are "stronger" than your opponent on the mat, but he can generate more power in a given period, that means he will out-power you in most instances.
what are some ways one can train ballistic/dynamic style training. or a routine of this type i could google to learn more about this
 

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most all your power when you punch is derived from your legs and your hips
 

hardknock

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No, training for boxing involves totally different biomechanical chains than bench pressing.
 

hardknock

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It's the same joke that I see thrown around about baseball players and hitting home runs because they are juiced and can bench heavier weights.
If it were all about strentgth then Dexter and Ron would also be able to step in the box and jack homers to the moon....i think it's the most pathetic attempt from big brother to get people to side with the antisteroid parades...
 

bigwhiteguy29

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i cant bench a lot i believe and my punch for my size is just average. its not weak by any means, i can rock someone and KO some dbag but its not like damn dudne hes strong he can punch crazy good. i fail to use my whole body both punch and my guard is bad(bad hips). im fine on kicks tho. a little sixe and sh!t helps but someone who maxes out at 250 and someone who maxes 315 can have the same punch. its still good to train hard with weights but dont get hurt and keep hitting the bag.
 
jas123

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:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

I love this question, but it seems to make sense to newer MMA fans.

Mullet covered it in pretty dorky terms, but basically bench is a slow, grind it out lift involving no core strength the way most people do it. Punching is an explosive movement where power comes from the hips and core.

Take Liddell at his peak. He was certainly a hard puncher but never had a huge chest or tris that you would associate with bench press. I doubt he benched over 350, but he knew how generate power through his hips and had the technique to add some nice snap on his punches.

If you had to pick some lifts to do to increase punching power (weights probably aren't the best way to do it), something like a push press and Russian twists would be good with the focus being on speed and explosion (ie lighter weights).
 

mcssassin

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it seem like it must be some what relative even if not directly connected. someone who benches 200lbs just doesnt seem like thy should be able to hit as hard as someone who benches 450lbs even if only because the heavier bencher has more body weight (muscle mass) to throw in his/her punch or the support muscles have gotten stronger because of lifting the heavier weight. mullet says it efficiancy of the muscle and that makes sense. but along with that the conetic chain of a punch starts at your back foot goes up thru your core and hips thru your upperbody and out thru your fist as a lunging twist sort of motion. common sense (tho maybe wrong just my opinion) would seem to dictate the more upper body power/strenght and weight u have the more you could amplify that conetic energy for a greater out put. or look at it this way if you take a good boxer whos punch power is x. now weight train that boxer till he benches 150 more pounds than before surly his punch power must have increased? right make that striker chuck for example already a great striker but would he be better if he benched anther 150 lbs?
 

bigwhiteguy29

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someone who benches 450 prolly weights over 215 unless they are short. at my biggest i was 236 and hit 395. i didnt have the best technique but used my body mass to generate power. also my shoulders werent very quick cuz of the heavy weight. someone who can only bench 200 is prolly around 140-175
 
Rodja

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Almost all of the power in a punch is generated from the glutes/core. As a corollary, consider this: most elite MT fighters are tiny by BB standards (130-150), but there chain is so efficient that they can kick extremely hard despite there less than stellar squat numbers.

There is some positive correlation, but it is very low. Improving your bench power shouldn't hurt (unless you decrease your flexibility in the process) your potential KO power, but it is not critical.
 

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punching is all about technique technique technique
 
Mulletsoldier

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it seem like it must be some what relative even if not directly connected. someone who benches 200lbs just doesnt seem like thy should be able to hit as hard as someone who benches 450lbs even if only because the heavier bencher has more body weight (muscle mass) to throw in his/her punch or the support muscles have gotten stronger because of lifting the heavier weight. mullet says it efficiancy of the muscle and that makes sense. but along with that the conetic chain of a punch starts at your back foot goes up thru your core and hips thru your upperbody and out thru your fist as a lunging twist sort of motion. common sense (tho maybe wrong just my opinion) would seem to dictate the more upper body power/strenght and weight u have the more you could amplify that conetic energy for a greater out put. or look at it this way if you take a good boxer whos punch power is x. now weight train that boxer till he benches 150 more pounds than before surly his punch power must have increased? right make that striker chuck for example already a great striker but would he be better if he benched anther 150 lbs?
No, because you have to understand the difference between strength and power.
 
VolcomX311

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it seem like it must be some what relative even if not directly connected. someone who benches 200lbs just doesnt seem like thy should be able to hit as hard as someone who benches 450lbs even if only because the heavier bencher has more body weight (muscle mass) to throw in his/her punch or the support muscles have gotten stronger because of lifting the heavier weight. mullet says it efficiancy of the muscle and that makes sense. but along with that the conetic chain of a punch starts at your back foot goes up thru your core and hips thru your upperbody and out thru your fist as a lunging twist sort of motion. common sense (tho maybe wrong just my opinion) would seem to dictate the more upper body power/strenght and weight u have the more you could amplify that conetic energy for a greater out put. or look at it this way if you take a good boxer whos punch power is x. now weight train that boxer till he benches 150 more pounds than before surly his punch power must have increased? right make that striker chuck for example already a great striker but would he be better if he benched anther 150 lbs?
Brief Summary of the Difference between strength & power without sounding too Mullet.

To augment Jas' fine general points about Benching being a slow movement and power being velocity based, how could one reason that someone with a weaker bench, could still punch harder?

Imagine your left hand and all five fingers. Each finger, digits 1 through 5 will represent your a single motor unit. Each motor unit, innervates 5 muscle fibers, basically, motor units are responsible for recruiting muscle fibers in order to produce force. With this picture of your 5 digits on your left hand and each digit touching 5 muscle fibers, here is the key variable. In a bench press or anything requiring strength, but lets take the bench press, imagine yourself lowering the bar to your chest and as you push off, finger 1 (motor unit) excites 3-4 muscle fibers in this instance, then immediately following fingers 2 & 3 excites excites all 5 innervating fibers, now fingers 4-5 excites their fibers and by the end of the bench press, all five fingers and all five innervating muscles have been activated and participated in the force production required to overcome the resistance. Basically, this is a Laymen's picture of strength.

Power. As oppose to digits 1 through 5 exciting their respective innervating muscle fibers in a progressive fashion, if your body is primed for power, all 5 digits and all 5 innervating muscles of those 5 digits fire in unison, a synchronous moment of full force production. To further clarify and emphasize, your body is laced with thousands upon thousands of motor units. In strength, during the a squat or bench press or whatever, imagine city lights turning on in bunches as it hits night fall, that would represent the rate of force production. On the other hand, with power, imagine every city light turning on in one single instance.

You can be stronger and contain more motor units then someone else, but if that "weaker" person's body is able to excite more motor units in a single instance, in spite of the fact that you have more total motor units, but if your motor units are going off in a progressive fashion, as oppose to synchronous, then in a single instant, such a strike, the weaker person with the synchronous force production will strike harder, then someone who is stronger, but excites their motor units asynchronously.

That's about as basic as I can make it. The two main elements.

#1. Increased muscle fiber recruit per motor unit.
#2. Coordinate motor unit firing.

Those two principles are prime elements that differentiate strength from power (these aren't the only two factors, we can discuss decreased antagonist co-contraction, decreased excitation of the golgi tendon in high velocity movements, increased neuron firing, advantageous neural pathways via neural plasia in response to velocity training, hypertrophy of the sarcolemma.... power has a whole world of adaptions unto itself, that does not require the presence of more muscle or stronger bench).

I didn't check for spelling or grammatical errors because I have a bit of Vodka in me and I don't want to, so I apologize for any incoherencies

 
GetSwoll

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A big chest brought on by hypertrophic training may not be ideal for boxing. they train for functionality. If they are body building, they are also training for speed and power. A big, muscular chest without any additional training wouldnt be an asset. Aside from intimidation, its not functional.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Brief Summary of the Difference between strength & power without sounding too Mullet.

To augment Jas' fine general points about Benching being a slow movement and power being velocity based, how could one reason that someone with a weaker bench, could still punch harder?

Imagine your left hand and all five fingers. Each finger, digits 1 through 5 will represent your a single motor unit. Each motor unit, innervates 5 muscle fibers, basically, motor units are responsible for recruiting muscle fibers in order to produce force. With this picture of your 5 digits on your left hand and each digit touching 5 muscle fibers, here is the key variable. In a bench press or anything requiring strength, but lets take the bench press, imagine yourself lowering the bar to your chest and as you push off, finger 1 (motor unit) excites 3-4 muscle fibers in this instance, then immediately following fingers 2 & 3 excites excites all 5 innervating fibers, now fingers 4-5 excites their fibers and by the end of the bench press, all five fingers and all five innervating muscles have been activated and participated in the force production required to overcome the resistance. Basically, this is a Laymen's picture of strength.

Power. As oppose to digits 1 through 5 exciting their respective innervating muscle fibers in a progressive fashion, if your body is primed for power, all 5 digits and all 5 innervating muscles of those 5 digits fire in unison, a synchronous moment of full force production. To further clarify and emphasize, your body is laced with thousands upon thousands of motor units. In strength, during the a squat or bench press or whatever, imagine city lights turning on in bunches as it hits night fall, that would represent the rate of force production. On the other hand, with power, imagine every city light turning on in one single instance.

You can be stronger and contain more motor units then someone else, but if that "weaker" person's body is able to excite more motor units in a single instance, in spite of the fact that you have more total motor units, but if your motor units are going off in a progressive fashion, as oppose to synchronous, then in a single instant, such a strike, the weaker person with the synchronous force production will strike harder, then someone who is stronger, but excites their motor units asynchronously.

That's about as basic as I can make it. The two main elements.

#1. Increased muscle fiber recruit per motor unit.
#2. Coordinate motor unit firing.

Those two principles are prime elements that differentiate strength from power (these aren't the only two factors, we can discuss decreased antagonist co-contraction, decreased excitation of the golgi tendon in high velocity movements, increased neuron firing, advantageous neural pathways via neural plasia in response to velocity training, hypertrophy of the sarcolemma.... power has a whole world of adaptions unto itself, that does not require the presence of more muscle or stronger bench).

I didn't check for spelling or grammatical errors because I have a bit of Vodka in me and I don't want to, so I apologize for any incoherencies

Yes, much simpler than my version!

:sick:
 
BodyWizard

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"All power comes from the waist (core/kinetic-chain)", is what I was taught - and it sure seems to work that way.
 

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I think there is a slight happy medium here, based on my experiences. If a guy has solid technique and hits with his entire body (or core, or hips and legs; however you want to phrase it), he'll knock your socks off. If he adds some strength and muscle to his frame and keeps his technique, he would of course hit a little harder. Not much, but some.

The thing of it is, adding the muscle mass will change the way your body moves, and alter, possibly hurt, your speed and flexibility. Rare are the big guys that can move as fast the toned ones, and if you're after practicality, you really should just put your effort into technique and form.

Balance is always the key :D
 
Young Gotti

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i was told to do push ups with your fists balled like you were going to punch, it might not add strength or power to the punch but it's supposed to toughin your hands to make the skin and fists harder when you do hit something or someone
 

mcssassin

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i was told to do push ups with your fists balled like you were going to punch, it might not add strength or power to the punch but it's supposed to toughin your hands to make the skin and fists harder when you do hit something or someone
yea im sure it would. last time i punched a d-bag i broke the bone behind my knuckle. so i probly should do some sort of hand and bone strengthing. i can hit like a horse but i been bulking for quite a while and im losing flexabilty for example putting my seat belt on is a serious job. i dont want to get so immobile that a little quick guy can windmill me before i get a hold of em or land a ko punch. i mean im still quick but i dont have the same spectrum of movement that i used to. im not claiming to be a tough guy im not out fightin all the time but if it happens i'd like to be at full potential so i can defend myself
 
vika808

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i was told to do push ups with your fists balled like you were going to punch, it might not add strength or power to the punch but it's supposed to toughin your hands to make the skin and fists harder when you do hit something or someone
ya doing knuckle push ups on cement is good, and also grip workouts is also great.
 

LactoseLou

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asumeing one knows how to throw a proper power punch does the more you bench nessesarly = how hard u hit?
look at Foreman hitting this heavy bag imagine him with mma gloves


From what I noticed of Heavy handed Boxers is they don't do body building work outs just calisthenics and plyos.

Basic stuff like those clapping push ups, crunches, jump rope, pull ups, chins, dips. they want the body to be fluid so the fist is like a ball at the end of a chain so all the weight travels to that fist.

the current Boxers stopped doing Neck Bridges though, Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield still did them

like this type of training
 
REEVESDIESEL

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look at Foreman hitting this heavy bag imagine him with mma gloves


From what I noticed of Heavy handed Boxers is they don't do body building work outs just calisthenics and plyos.

Basic stuff like those clapping push ups, crunches, jump rope, pull ups, chins, dips. they want the body to be fluid so the fist is like a ball at the end of a chain so all the weight travels to that fist.

the current Boxers stopped doing Neck Bridges though, Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield still did them

like this type of training

Thanks for the vids Lou! I love boxing!

I got to know the great, late Arturo Gatti and his great trainer, Teddy. Was invited many times to boxing workouts. At the gym, Jungle Club in Vero Bch. he did a alot of fast speed running and close grip benching.

Nothing heavy, slow eccentric, explosive on the postive, abs. That's about it!

Arturo ran like an animal on crack!!! Once....this was preparing for the last Ward fight. He was running a very fast pace for what seemed like forever! If I recall it was 45-55 mins. of fast speed running, then he jumped off the threadmill and had to vomit! LOL, that's how hard he was pushing himself. It was awesome to see how the great champ trained. I was behind him running and watching him with complete awe. Arturo turned to me and I gave him a wow look while raising my eyebrows in amazement.

Anyways, great times I will never forget! Watching him train made me pick up my own intensity big time!

Gatti has some big time punching power. Heavy wts, lots of lifting, nope. A little though. He did lots of Hindu jump squats I recall as well.
 

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