The Case for Pound-for-Pound Numero Uno!

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    The Case for Pound-for-Pound Numero Uno!


    After UFC 100, certain MMA blog-spots still have Anderson "The Sleeping Spider" Silva rated above either Fedor or GSP; very quizzical, in my humble opinion. Given my undying man-love for GSP, I thought I would compare the most recent achievements of all three fighters, by the numbers, to ascertain the pound-for-pound number one. I'm interested in everybody's thoughts.

    GSP:

    Over a span of nine fights, and twenty-nine rounds, GSP has lost - depending on the judge you speak to - two rounds: the TKO loss to Matt Serra, and a round [...or two...] to BJ Penn, both of which he resoundingly avenged. Of those nine fights, five were against current or former champions - BJ Penn [x2], Hughes [x2], Serra [x1] - and each of his opponents, aside from Serra, was ranked as one of the top three WWs in the world [not just the UFC] at the time of the fight. (With BJ Penn actually being in the Top Five P4P at the time.) And since GSP began dominating - say, after Hughes I - he has cleared one of the most dominant divisions in MMA history, in respects to sheer talent. (The only division that really compares is PRIDE HW division from 2003-R.I.P., with Hunt, Cro-Cop, Nog, Barnett, Coleman, Randleman, and, of course, Fee-aye-Dyor.) Finally, if you consider his reign from Anderson's entrance into the UFC, GSP actually holds six wins over UFC champions, as he defeated Sherk as well. GSP has resoundingly destroyed three top-ten P4P opponents in a row, with not a single round lost; in reality, there was less than a few minutes total where he was in a defensive position. No fighter can match this current stretch.

    Anderson:

    During the same period, Anderson Silva has an equal number of fights, with a total of eighteen rounds; of those eighteen rounds, he lost a round to Lutter, a round [...or two...] to Cote, a round to Henderson, and one [boring] round to Leites - a total of four/five rounds lost. Being generous and only giving one round to Cote, this means that Anderson has lost four out of a total eighteen rounds, whereas GSP has lost a total of two [or three] rounds out of a total twenty-nine. In terms of opponents, Anderson holds only three wins against current or former UFC champions - Franklin [x2] and Hendo - to GSP's five/six, and has cleared out the most resoundingly weak division in MMA. Aside from Hendo, none of his opponents during this reign were considered elite at the time he defeated them. (Aside from Franklin, who may have been considered top-ten P4P.) The only thing which reasonably placed Anderson above GSP was his style of finishing fights, and his sheer accuracy and viscousness of striking; however, that Anderson has flown the coop and, with him, his claim to P4P # 1. Given his recent unconvincing performances, reasonable doubt must be raised as to whether Anderson was merely a big fish in a small pond, or was truly one of MMA's elite; a convincing victory over Forrest will certainly go far in deciding this.

    Fedor:

    Our last fighter, Fedor, fought six times during this period, with a total of seven rounds - of those seven rounds, he has not lost one of them; and, in fact, Mark Coleman was his last opponent since Cro-Cop - in 2005, during the OWGP finals - to make it out of the second round. During this period, Fedor holds three wins - Sylvia, Arlovski, and Coleman - over former UFC HW champions; however, Sylvia's recent :09 crushing by Ray Mercer and Arlovski's mauling by a [then] not top-ten opponent remove the significance from these wins. Fedor's recent quality-of-opponent has appreciably lessened his repute: Cro-Cop was his last opponent [...reasonably...] considered as one of the top three HWs in the world, and this is simply not enough to retain his position as the P4P # 1. If Fedor is to usurp GSP once more, he will need a convincing and dominant win over Barnett, in the same vein, or better, as GSP's crushing of his opponents of late. At that point, to retain his simultaneous GOAT and P4P # 1 status, Fee-eye-ee-eye-o-dor will need to mediate the squabbles between M-1/Red Devil and Zuffa in order to dominate the best HWs in the world.

    Ranking:

    1. GSP
    2. Fedor
    3. Anderson

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    1. Fedor
    2. GSP
    3. Silva

    Not only does Fedor have the best record of the three, no one has ever really beaten the guy. On top of that, in almost all of his fights, he is the smaller guy, who is outweighed by his competitors. Sometimes he has fought guys that are much bigger and stronger, but he always comes out on top.
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    I hear that, but I see only one issue with that argument: it is, more or less, an argument for the greatest of all time, not necessarily the greatest of right now. While Fedor is more accomplished overall, I think you have to take into account recent events; in that light, I put GSP over Fedor. Either way, Anderson is third.
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    My arguments are going to be lame, because I'm coming with a subjective point of view, as opposed to your objective facts. On paper, I think you've made a very convincing argument for GSP as p4p, even over Feya-dor. I'll start with this statement and see how I work it out. Objectively, based on factual records that you nicely laid out, GSP is p4p, however, in reality, I still feel, key word “feel,” that Fedor is a superior fighter. I may be making a case for GOAT as oppose to current p4p, but I'll finish. GSP has dominated his opponents in a powerful fashion, fact. However, Fedor's dominance are displayed in a spectrum of talents. Fedor has dominated and won via standing strikes and dominated and won through submissions. Fedor's TD's are also legendary, only his TD's are usually performed from standing under hooks, rather then GSP's leg TD's [irrelevant details]. Furthermore, Fedor's dominating wins, are more dominating then GSP's dominating wins, though you could make the case and I think you already have, that GSP have fought higher calibur fighters as of recent.

    It appears I'm more so addressing GOAT then p4p. I think GSP has the potential to be a GOAT on paper, but in my opinion, due to Fedors much wider arsenal of talent, I may always consider Fedor as the G-MMA fighter-OAT, regardless of GSP's more impressive record now and to come, due to Fedors ability to win via whatever position he's in. Whereas, GSP, though unarguably dominating in his style, his style is limited in arsenal, compared to Feya-dors.
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    The problem i have with pound for pound lists are the fact that alot of the people on the list stay in one weight division when I see a pound for pound list I'd like to know how that fighter would do if he didn't have the weight cut. for example GSP is great but does his take downs and control at welterweight translate as well into a different weight class. We know how Fedor does against heavier opponenetsis and Silva has competed in various weight classess also I think GSP's last fight was the only fight where he was at a size disadvantage. This takes nothing from GSP but I think pound for pound should transcend results in one weight class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
    GSP has dominated his opponents in a powerful fashion, fact. However, Fedor's dominance are displayed in a spectrum of talents. Fedor has dominated and won via standing strikes and dominated and won through submissions. Fedor's TD's are also legendary, only his TD's are usually performed from standing under hooks, rather then GSP's leg TD's [irrelevant details].
    I concede GSP's so-called "homogeneous style of victory" - phenomenal GnP-based attack, with varied striking - but reach a much different conclusion. Allow me to explain. I feel that GSP has dominated a string of opponents in the exact fashion is an endorsement, rather than an indictment, of his [...current...] superiority to Fedor - that is, the fact all of his last six bouts have looked the exact same against six entirely different opponents means he is effectively asserting a game-plan. Let's consider even his last three opponents.

    Thiago is a phenomenal MT-based striker, with huge power and a great sprawl; BJ is obviously BJ, with all the "good and bad" thereto; and Fitch is an elite wrestler with a chin of steel, a great guard, and great TD defense as well - without a doubt, three entirely different, but equally ranked, fighters. Now, the fact there is nary a difference between any of these three fights, down to the amount of TDs landed by GSP and damage taken by him, means he is dominating every type of fighter to such a degree every fight looks the same - i.e., he removes them from their element so efficiently, no other style is necessary. Fedor wins in varied fashions because of two reasons: a) he is proficient in all areas, and; b) he puts himself in situations where they are necessary. GSP, on the other hand, dominates so entirely, that he really does not require a flash KO and/or submission.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I concede GSP's so-called "homogeneous style of victory" - phenomenal GnP-based attack, with varied striking - but reach a much different conclusion. Allow me to explain. I feel that GSP has dominated a string of opponents in the exact fashion is an endorsement, rather than an indictment, of his [...current...] superiority to Fedor - that is, the fact all of his last six bouts have looked the exact same against six entirely different opponents means he is effectively asserting a game-plan. Let's consider even his last three opponents.

    Thiago is a phenomenal MT-based striker, with huge power and a great sprawl; BJ is obviously BJ, with all the "good and bad" thereto; and Fitch is an elite wrestler with a chin of steel, a great guard, and great TD defense as well - without a doubt, three entirely different, but equally ranked, fighters. Now, the fact there is nary a difference between any of these three fights, down to the amount of TDs landed by GSP and damage taken by him, means he is dominating every type of fighter to such a degree every fight looks the same - i.e., he removes them from their element so efficiently, no other style is necessary. Fedor wins in varied fashions because of two reasons: a) he is proficient in all areas, and; b) he puts himself in situations where they are necessary. GSP, on the other hand, dominates so entirely, that he really does not require a flash KO and/or submission.
    I totally agree with your assessment of GSP, but you wanted to put a case together for P4P best. Mixedup also went off of what I was saying as fighting against bigger fighters than yourself. How many occasions has Fedor fought fighters 20+ lbs. bigger and heavier than himself? This was the first fight that I've seen GSP being the smaller guy, but not by much at all to make a difference. A true P4P title should transcend different weight classes, as Mixedup mentioned again. I hate to bring boxing into this but look back when Roy Jones Jr. was going through multiple weight classes and destroying everyone in his path.....that guy was a true P4P best at the time. Now if GSP goes to 185 and cleans house (which I think he can) then I will call him the P4P best in the world. But until then, Fedor is IMO, the P4P king for destroying guys up to 140 lbs heavier than himself.
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    Heavyweights never seem to be mentioned when people start discussing pound-for-pound best fighters for some reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I hear that, but I see only one issue with that argument: it is, more or less, an argument for the greatest of all time, not necessarily the greatest of right now. While Fedor is more accomplished overall, I think you have to take into account recent events; in that light, I put GSP over Fedor. Either way, Anderson is third.
    I agree with this assessment and your earlier post. GSP has completely dominated 3 guys that have shown up in top 10 P4P lists in Fitch, Alves, and BJ. He's looked untouchable doing so. Fedor's taken out 2 former UFC champs to stay in the discussion as a close #2. He didn't look great against AA, but got the job done. Silva has won by doing very little. While he hasn't been in any trouble in his last two fights, the gap between these guys is so small that you need to look better than he has recently to be #1.

    GSP
    Fedor
    Anderson

    I also see the pack catching up to Fedor and BJ whereas Machida, Anderson, and GSP seem to be pulling away from the pack. In terms of possible losses, I don't see anyone in their respective weightclasses beating GSP, Machida, or BJ, but I could see Brock beating Fedor (not as the favorite) and if Hendo fought the perfect fight, Dan beating Silva (Dan is too wild/reckless for this to be likely).
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    Quote Originally Posted by jas123 View Post
    I agree with this assessment and your earlier post. GSP has completely dominated 3 guys that have shown up in top 10 P4P lists in Fitch, Alves, and BJ. He's looked untouchable doing so. Fedor's taken out 2 former UFC champs to stay in the discussion as a close #2. He didn't look great against AA, but got the job done. Silva has won by doing very little. While he hasn't been in any trouble in his last two fights, the gap between these guys is so small that you need to look better than he has recently to be #1.

    GSP
    Fedor
    Anderson

    I also see the pack catching up to Fedor and BJ whereas Machida, Anderson, and GSP seem to be pulling away from the pack. In terms of possible losses, I don't see anyone in their respective weightclasses beating GSP, Machida, or BJ, but I could see Brock beating Fedor (not as the favorite) and if Hendo fought the perfect fight, Dan beating Silva (Dan is too wild/reckless for this to be likely).
    I definitely agree with all of this. GSP has taken out, as you said, three top ten pound-for-pound guys in a row; while Anderson, on the other hand, is not fighting top-ten MWs, even. I also forgot about your last paragraph, which is right on as well. And that last paragraph is even more impressive when you consider that GSP's is the best division out of all of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
    I totally agree with your assessment of GSP, but you wanted to put a case together for P4P best. Mixedup also went off of what I was saying as fighting against bigger fighters than yourself. How many occasions has Fedor fought fighters 20+ lbs. bigger and heavier than himself? This was the first fight that I've seen GSP being the smaller guy, but not by much at all to make a difference. A true P4P title should transcend different weight classes, as Mixedup mentioned again. I hate to bring boxing into this but look back when Roy Jones Jr. was going through multiple weight classes and destroying everyone in his path.....that guy was a true P4P best at the time. Now if GSP goes to 185 and cleans house (which I think he can) then I will call him the P4P best in the world. But until then, Fedor is IMO, the P4P king for destroying guys up to 140 lbs heavier than himself.
    That is simply not what P4P means, though. It means, more or less, who is a better fighter pound-for-pound - i.e., taking weight out of the equation who is a better fighter. And so, it does not mean, "Who can go up or down in the most weight classes" as circumstances very from individual to individual.
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    fedor - only one loss and it was a fluke.
    gsp - all around great game, not afraid. to many loses tho for me.
    anderson - close close close to gsp but he doesnt have the mind of a champ im looking for. great guy/fighter id take him over any 185 def over gsp at 185 and i hope he tears it up at 205.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwhiteguy29 View Post
    fedor - only one loss and it was a fluke.
    gsp - all around great game, not afraid. to many loses tho for me.
    anderson - close close close to gsp but he doesnt have the mind of a champ im looking for. great guy/fighter id take him over any 185 def over gsp at 185 and i hope he tears it up at 205.
    GSP has 2 losses?
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    My thoughts


    I am a little late to the party here, but let me keep it simple.

    1. GSP, demolished the most plentiful weight class. Not only demolished, but hasnt been challenged since the KO to Serra in 4/07 I believe. Also, (and we will see about this) should be very good in the future at 185

    2. Fedor: Most dominant heavyweight in history. However, recent events IMO tarnish his most recent victories. AA losing to Brett Rogers and Sylvia losing to Ray Mercer make me wonder. I am curious how dominant he will be against Barnett.

    3. Anderson: IMO the best of the bunch, but has not put forth a real good performance. He needs to dominate Forrest IMO to truly get back to serious consideration here
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I am a little late to the party here, but let me keep it simple.

    1. GSP, demolished the most plentiful weight class. Not only demolished, but hasnt been challenged since the KO to Serra in 4/07 I believe. Also, (and we will see about this) should be very good in the future at 185

    2. Fedor: Most dominant heavyweight in history. However, recent events IMO tarnish his most recent victories. AA losing to Brett Rogers and Sylvia losing to Ray Mercer make me wonder. I am curious how dominant he will be against Barnett.

    3. Anderson: IMO the best of the bunch, but has not put forth a real good performance. He needs to dominate Forrest IMO to truly get back to serious consideration here
    I called the AA loss to Rogers. His style is the way to beat AA; hell, that's how you beat most strikers. It's funny how, once again, a lot of the elite HW is not in the UFC (Fedor, Overeem, Rogers, Barnett, Aleks)
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I am a little late to the party here, but let me keep it simple.

    1. GSP, demolished the most plentiful weight class. Not only demolished, but hasnt been challenged since the KO to Serra in 4/07 I believe. Also, (and we will see about this) should be very good in the future at 185

    2. Fedor: Most dominant heavyweight in history. However, recent events IMO tarnish his most recent victories. AA losing to Brett Rogers and Sylvia losing to Ray Mercer make me wonder. I am curious how dominant he will be against Barnett.

    3. Anderson: IMO the best of the bunch, but has not put forth a real good performance. He needs to dominate Forrest IMO to truly get back to serious consideration here
    What is it about Anderson that makes you feel he is the best? That is an honest question, by the way. I wonder as I have simply never bought into the Anderson hype. Only one of his opponents - Henderson - was [arguably] top ten P4P at the time of their fight. The MW division is so thin Thailes Leites was essentially picked out of thin air to face him! The case for Anderson, IMO, is by far and away the weakest out of all three when looked at objectively. Any argument for Anderson as P4P #1 is based, in part, on a sipping a strong serving of the UFC's ever-pervasive Kool-Aid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    What is it about Anderson that makes you feel he is the best? That is an honest question, by the way. I wonder as I have simply never bought into the Anderson hype. Only one of his opponents - Henderson - was [arguably] top ten P4P at the time of their fight. The MW division is so thin Thailes Leites was essentially picked out of thin air to face him! The case for Anderson, IMO, is by far and away the weakest out of all three when looked at objectively. Any argument for Anderson as P4P #1 is based, in part, on a sipping a strong serving of the UFC's ever-pervasive Kool-Aid.
    I think the victories over Nate, Hendo and 2 over Franklin (also a top 10 P4P at the time) were remarkable in the ease in which he dispatched them. Besides the first rd to Hendo, they were not competitive.

    However, since then, Anderson has been subpar, which could relate to the lack of opponents at this point. He (like GSP at 170) has no one left to face, and a permanent move up in weight, might be the only thing for them
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I think the victories over Nate, Hendo and 2 over Franklin (also a top 10 P4P at the time) were remarkable in the ease in which he dispatched them. Besides the first rd to Hendo, they were not competitive.

    However, since then, Anderson has been subpar, which could relate to the lack of opponents at this point. He (like GSP at 170) has no one left to face, and a permanent move up in weight, might be the only thing for them
    WW was very deep a few years ago when Hughes was still champ, but GSP has dispatched everyone thought to be a contender and in dominating fashion.

    Andy is the king of a division that has been thin for years, especially in the UFC.

    Fedor, like GSP, was at the top of, IMO, the deepest division so far in MMA histroy, which was the Pride HW division. Amazing talent and the rules were much less restrictive. Many don't know this, but he was the underdog against Herring, Nog, and CC when they fought. He has also beaten Olympic medalists, K-1 GP winners, and Nat'l Champion/All-American wrestlers. The only knock that I have on Fedor is that he has only had to rally once in a fight (Fujita had him out on his feet), but that is also a testament to just how good he is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I think the victories over Nate, Hendo and 2 over Franklin (also a top 10 P4P at the time) were remarkable in the ease in which he dispatched them. Besides the first rd to Hendo, they were not competitive.
    True, but Franklin was not top-ten the second-time around, and neither was Nate. After that, Anderson lost rounds to Lutter, Leites, Cote, etc - i.e.,) poor performances against sub-par opponents. As I said "that" Anderson is really nowhere near #1 P4P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Fedor, like GSP, was at the top of, IMO, the deepest division so far in MMA histroy, which was the Pride HW division. Amazing talent and the rules were much less restrictive. Many don't know this, but he was the underdog against Herring, Nog, and CC when they fought. He has also beaten Olympic medalists, K-1 GP winners, and Nat'l Champion/All-American wrestlers. The only knock that I have on Fedor is that he has only had to rally once in a fight (Fujita had him out on his feet), but that is also a testament to just how good he is.
    Yes, 100%. As I say above, the UFC's WW division from 04-on and PRIDE's HW division from 2003-R.I.P were the deepest in MMA history.
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    My top 5

    1. Fedor
    2. Miguel Torres
    3. Anderson Silva
    4. GSP
    5. BJ Penn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy1982 View Post
    My top 5

    1. Fedor
    2. Miguel Torres
    3. Anderson Silva
    4. GSP
    5. BJ Penn
    Pretty interesting list! I completely disagree as I can name three LWs off the top of my head that are better than BJ, but definitely interesting. I like Torres in the Top Five, but I just could not fathom a scenario that he would be above either Anderson or GSP. What's your assessment? Or is this a personal favorite top five?
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    torres is so fun. i am glad no one said anything about faber. (even tho he did break his hand)

    only 2 loses?? damn i thought he had one more.

    im still sticking with my choices but they are all really close.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwhiteguy29 View Post
    torres is so fun. i am glad no one said anything about faber. (even tho he did break his hand)

    only 2 loses?? damn i thought he had one more.

    im still sticking with my choices but they are all really close.
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    He also avenged both of his losses, and avenged against Hughes twice; both in dominating fashion.
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    Pound for pound, you must include BJ Penn in this list @ 155. Yes at 170, arguably only 1 fighter proved to be better (i.e. GSP), but at 155, he's mauled through everyone. He will at Florian to that list.
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    Well, technically, BJ lost three fights in a row at 170 - GSP, Hughes, GSP - which is what precludes him from being top-five P4P, IMO. (The beating GSP put on him knocked him down considerably, and GSP up considerably.) As for LWs, I see both Alvarez or Aoki beating BJ; especially Alvarez.
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    Alvarez over BJ? Really? I can't see it personally.

    I do agree that the loss to GSP killed his p4p claim, however at 155, I don't see any real threat.
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    Fedor
    GSP
    Torres

    Fedor and GSp would be interchangeble depending on my mood .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Pretty interesting list! I completely disagree as I can name three LWs off the top of my head that are better than BJ, but definitely interesting. I like Torres in the Top Five, but I just could not fathom a scenario that he would be above either Anderson or GSP. What's your assessment? Or is this a personal favorite top five?
    Well Torres and BJ are 2 of my favorite fighters so maybe I'm a bit biased but I put Torres up there because he is so dominant at his weight class and is very exciting, and as for BJ, someone has to beat him at LW to be better than him. I think he is going to destroy KenFlo. Just for the record that is my p4p top 5.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Alvarez over BJ? Really? I can't see it personally.

    I do agree that the loss to GSP killed his p4p claim, however at 155, I don't see any real threat.
    Definitely. In terms of LW, my top five would be:

    Alvarez/Aoki
    BJ Penn
    Alvarez/Aoki
    Hansen
    Florian

    Quite frankly, I could see any of the above beating BJ; and therefore, he should not be considered as the best LW, or top five P4P.
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    Aoki looked good kickboxing.
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    if machida beats shogun and lets say rampage in a pretty good fasion would you add him to the list?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwhiteguy29 View Post
    if machida beats shogun and lets say rampage in a pretty good fasion would you add him to the list?
    Well, it depends on if/how Anderson beats Forrest, and if/how Fedor beats Barnett. In either case, GSP remains #1, but their style of victories will determine the shuffling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I called the AA loss to Rogers. His style is the way to beat AA; hell, that's how you beat most strikers. It's funny how, once again, a lot of the elite HW is not in the UFC (Fedor, Overeem, Rogers, Barnett, Aleks)
    I agree with your statement, but I wouldn't call Rogers elite by any means. Does he have a ground game? He turned down a fight against Werdum today (on short notice so not too weak of him). Aleks is done if you ask me. Between lackluster recent performances (Magmodev nearly KOed him before a cut forced a stoppage) and his disease issues, is he relevant anymore? I like him, but was he ever really anything more than a fringe top 10 HW? I say no. He had the physical tools of Fedor but not the mental tools.

    Fedor, like GSP, was at the top of, IMO, the deepest division so far in MMA histroy, which was the Pride HW division. Amazing talent and the rules were much less restrictive. Many don't know this, but he was the underdog against Herring, Nog, and CC when they fought. He has also beaten Olympic medalists, K-1 GP winners, and Nat'l Champion/All-American wrestlers. The only knock that I have on Fedor is that he has only had to rally once in a fight (Fujita had him out on his feet), but that is also a testament to just how good he is.
    I'd say the current UFC 205 division is the deepest ever. There are the obvious top 10 dudes, but also some really talented newer/younger guys like Jon Jones, Cantwell, Cane, etc.

    Mullet

    After that, Anderson lost rounds to Lutter, Leites, Cote, etc - i.e.,) poor performances against sub-par opponents. As I said "that" Anderson is really nowhere near #1 P4P.
    He didn't lose a round to Cote, but it doesn't matter really. Anderson is not necessarily a dominator a la GSP, ie a dude who controls every minute of a fight. He's a dude who can end it and turn it around in seconds (something GSP can not really do) while never really being in any trouble (only the Lutter fight was this not the case and I can't see ever having a repeat of that fight again).

    I tend to rank guys based mainly on the last three years of fighting. In this case, I think their performances / strength of schedule etc... rank:
    GSP > Anderson > Fedor.
    Fedor gains some by his lifetime acheivements and Anderson's last two performances being very blah. I still think Fedor's last performance wasn't overly impressive either. Anderson isn't way behind by any means.

    Mullet ... we were doing so well too

    I completely disagree as I can name three LWs off the top of my head that are better than BJ, but definitely interesting.
    No, BJ is definitely #1 at LW. Alvarez would get destroyed. Have you watched his fights in Bellator because they weren't exactly impressive while fighting unknowns. He's gotten dropped a lot too, ie has holes in his standup defense that BJ would expose badly. BJ drops him and then is on top and it's over via GNP or sub (he's been subbed recently). Aoki has even less of a chance. BJ's standup and wrestling are lightyears better, and I'd say that they are pretty even on the ground (maybe Aoki has a slight advantage in MMA jits but not nearly enough to sub him). Oh, and Aoki can't take a punch at all. Aoki is a 1-d fighter.

    I think even the best Japanese circuit LWs would get severely outwrestled by the UFC crowd. They are over rated.

    (The beating GSP put on him knocked him down considerably, and GSP up considerably.)
    It's pound-for-pound. This does not hurt him considerably because he is not the same size as GSP. A significant portion of GSP's gameplan depended on using his size and strength advantage to neutralize BJ. Sure, a lot of his game plan against WWs depends on it too, but the gap is much smaller if BJ is scaled up to 170 (he weighs in at 178 or so and is the same height as GSP - BJ is above ave. height at 155). The domination hurts him a little but not much at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jas123 View Post
    He didn't lose a round to Cote, but it doesn't matter really. Anderson is not necessarily a dominator a la GSP, ie a dude who controls every minute of a fight. He's a dude who can end it and turn it around in seconds (something GSP can not really do) while never really being in any trouble (only the Lutter fight was this not the case and I can't see ever having a repeat of that fight again).
    We must be thinking of a different Cote fight, then. I am thinking of the Cote fight where Anderson had less effective striking and octagon control for at least one round!

    In terms of 'being in trouble', I have to disagree again: he was 'in trouble' almost the entire first round of the Henderson fight. While I see your point, whether or not he is a dominating fighter is somewhat secondary to the point I was making. The real issue afoot is that Anderson can, has, and will be controlled again - not a claim that can be made for either GSP or Fedor. Again: GSP has nary lost a round against top ten pound for pound fighters, while Anderson has lost several rounds to fighters who were not top ten MWs; really, that cannot be understated.

    As well, the main point I was making remains the most important: his performances against sub-par competition have been nowhere near Fedor or GSP's performances against elite competition. This means, more or less, the gap between Fedor/GSP and Anderson is probably larger than you state here. In reality, his poor competition in the weakest division in MMA is and will be his bane.

    I tend to rank guys based mainly on the last three years of fighting. In this case, I think their performances / strength of schedule etc... rank:
    GSP > Anderson > Fedor. Fedor gains some by his lifetime acheivements and Anderson's last two performances being very blah. I still think Fedor's last performance wasn't overly impressive either. Anderson isn't way behind by any means.
    Three years is an excessive time period for somebody who jumped on the Machida-train like his life depended on it. (Had to get you there.) To say Anderson is not way behind is an act of generosity on your part, and not much more: he has not had a dominating performance against an elite opponent since Henderson, and there is really no other way to slice that!

    No, BJ is definitely #1 at LW. Alvarez would get destroyed. Have you watched his fights in Bellator because they weren't exactly impressive while fighting unknowns. He's gotten dropped a lot too, ie has holes in his standup defense that BJ would expose badly. BJ drops him and then is on top and it's over via GNP or sub (he's been subbed recently). Aoki has even less of a chance. BJ's standup and wrestling are lightyears better, and I'd say that they are pretty even on the ground (maybe Aoki has a slight advantage in MMA jits but not nearly enough to sub him). Oh, and Aoki can't take a punch at all. Aoki is a 1-d fighter.
    Completely disagree. Against Hansen - a better striker than BJ - Alvarez looked crisp, and he has a very active guard and phenomenal sub defense. While his Bellator performances were not startling, his bouts in DREAM were convincing. BJ has ridden the "prodigy" train long enough, and his unilateral and misguided focus on the WW division means one thing: the rest of the LW division has by and large caught up to him. Alvarez would beat him without a doubt, but he would most likely beat Aoki.

    I think even the best Japanese circuit LWs would get severely outwrestled by the UFC crowd. They are over rated.
    Maybe, maybe not.

    It's pound-for-pound. This does not hurt him considerably because he is not the same size as GSP. A significant portion of GSP's gameplan depended on using his size and strength advantage to neutralize BJ. Sure, a lot of his game plan against WWs depends on it too, but the gap is much smaller if BJ is scaled up to 170 (he weighs in at 178 or so and is the same height as GSP - BJ is above ave. height at 155). The domination hurts him a little but not much at all.
    I respected most of what you said, but this is entirely nonsensical, Jas. BJ has fought as high as LHW and been competitive, so the 'smaller fighter' argument is a poor defense for him. He was outclassed by a fighter who executed a better game-plan with a superior set of athletic tools - i.e., whether BJ weighed 185 or 175 on fight night, the outcome would have been the same. A sheer domination of that magnitude very obviously hurts his P4P status, and the fact he fought up a weight class only very slightly diminishes that. And yes, the fact it is pound-for-pound is precisely my point: at within a handful of pounds from one another, BJ was absolutely dominated by GSP. Your point only has legs if the fight was close, and it was not. Also, the fact their first fight was razor-thin diminishes the significance of your point - i.e., at one time BJ was very competitive at a weight he was later completely dominated in. The fact is, BJ showed that the rest of the world quickly closed on his skill-set, and he no longer belongs in the top five P4P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jas123 View Post
    It's pound-for-pound. This does not hurt him considerably because he is not the same size as GSP. A significant portion of GSP's gameplan depended on using his size and strength advantage to neutralize BJ. Sure, a lot of his game plan against WWs depends on it too, but the gap is much smaller if BJ is scaled up to 170 (he weighs in at 178 or so and is the same height as GSP - BJ is above ave. height at 155). The domination hurts him a little but not much at all.
    Oh, and the fact Thiago walks around at 200 - a small MW walking weight - hurts this argument as well. It means, essentially, that GSP is able to apply a consistent game-plan across a gamut of weights and sizes. Put otherwise: pound-for-pound, GSP's skills were better than a wide-range of fighters, including BJ, and it was not dependent upon size and strength. Considering I knocked both Fitch and Thiago out of the top-ten after their losses, and BJ was dominated the worst of all and quit, I knocked him down two places - all the way to seventh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Three years is an excessive time period for somebody who jumped on the Machida-train like his life depended on it. (Had to get you there.)
    No, you didn't get me. I've been talking about how good Machida is since he started in the UFC. Every hardcore fan that I know knew he was something special. I didn't always enjoy his fights, but he made people look so bad. His talent was evident.

    And no Cote lost both rounds:
    Round 1 - Cote with a low kick to start off and some decent trunk movement. More low kicks from Cote. Silva taking a minute to get into the flow. Silva jobs around the ring for a second. Two minutes in and Silva has yet to really throw a meaningful strike. Some low kicks from Silva now and they're solid. Still not a ton of action and they're losing what was a very excited crowd. Nice kick lands to the face of Cote. Big knee and some follow up shots. Cote is bleeding from the forehead. Not a very exciting first round and the crowd boos. 10-9 Silva for damage. Round 2 - Left hand lands SOLID for Silva. Cote with a spinning backfist and Anderson grabs a body lock against the fence. Body kick lands for Silva. Silva avoids a charge from Cote and takes him down. Armbar attempt by Cote but easilly avoided. Anderson tries to give Cote his hand to help him up but Cote waits for Herb Dean to step in. I don't really like the lack of offense from Silva just because I don't like him allowing Cote to hang around, but it is strategy and you can't fault him I suppose. Crowd boos are picking up. Cote is catching Silva's leg kicks now and is looking for a takedown but Anderson avoids. Anderson with some classic knees to the body from the clinch and that was probably enough to win him the round. 10-9 Silva (20-18 total)
    The Anderson stuff is debateable, but other of your statements are just plain embarrassing (ie, I have too much other stuff to write to continue on this line).

    Against Hansen - a better striker than BJ - Alvarez looked crisp, and he has a very active guard and phenomenal sub defense.
    Hansen is not at all a better striker than BJ. It's irritating too because I don't like BJ and you're making argue for him.

    Also, Dream = ring + no testing. You're talking beat BJ so they have to come into his domain.

    I respected most of what you said, but this is entirely nonsensical, Jas. BJ has fought as high as LHW and been competitive, so the 'smaller fighter' argument is a poor defense for him. He was outclassed by a fighter who executed a better game-plan with a superior set of athletic tools - i.e., whether BJ weighed 185 or 175 on fight night, the outcome would have been the same. A sheer domination of that magnitude very obviously hurts his P4P status, and the fact he fought up a weight class only very slightly diminishes that. And yes, the fact it is pound-for-pound is precisely my point: at within a handful of pounds from one another, BJ was absolutely dominated by GSP. Your point only has legs if the fight was close, and it was not. Also, the fact their first fight was razor-thin diminishes the significance of your point - i.e., at one time BJ was very competitive at a weight he was later completely dominated in. The fact is, BJ showed that the rest of the world quickly closed on his skill-set, and he no longer belongs in the top five P4P.
    You don't understand p4p then. BJ's natural and current weightclass is 155. He is not a 170 guy. He just throws on bodyfat and maybe 2 pounds of muscle max to get to 168 to fight there because he wants to challenge himself and he's an arrogant prick. GSP weighs 185 come fight time whereas BJ weighed around 168. That's a big difference and even the smaller WWs weigh 180 in the ring.

    When you look at a guy p4p, you consider their resume at their weightclass and maybe how they would do against other top p4p guys if scaled to the one common weightclass with things like speed and cardio being corrected for (ie heavyweights are slower and have naturally worse cardio than LWs) as well as amount of weight cut and height/reach relative to division. BJ could in theory lose to GSP and still be ranked higher than him p4p. I just think GSP's resume is much stronger. But BJ is around #4 or 5 p4p.

    Before you argue just to try to be right, lawyer-boy, think about it logically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jas123 View Post
    No, you didn't get me. I've been talking about how good Machida is since he started in the UFC. Every hardcore fan that I know knew he was something special. I didn't always enjoy his fights, but he made people look so bad. His talent was evident.
    The "getting you" was a joke. Calm down.

    And no Cote lost both rounds:
    Is that a Sherdog assessment - honestly? Anyway, I scored the fight differently, but really do not care.

    The Anderson stuff is debateable, but other of your statements are just plain embarrassing (ie, I have too much other stuff to write to continue on this line).
    Okay.

    Hansen is not at all a better striker than BJ. It's irritating too because I don't like BJ and you're making argue for him.

    Also, Dream = ring + no testing. You're talking beat BJ so they have to come into his domain.
    So, in your estimation, it is entirely adequate to compare Fedor v., UFC HWs - you have even talked about Brock v., Fedor - but it is inadequate when speaking about BJ v., Dream LWs? Sorry, doesn't fly. I am comparing the DREAM LWs and their relative [better] competition to BJ, which is fair.

    Before you argue just to try to be right, lawyer-boy, think about it logically.
    If you had a job I could insult you on, I would attempt to burn you back in an equally as stupid fashion. Anyway, thinking about it "logically" BJ's P4P status was hurt against GSP.

    BJ almost beat Georges, and was beating Hughes before his rib injury, so this "not a WW guy" is nonsense. The fact is, the size and weight disadvantage for BJ in each fight was much less of a factor than you make it out to be; and so, squaring the "size and weight" argument away, the second Penn/GSP fight was more or less normalized for skill progression v., skill progression - i.e., it was as close to a legitimate pound-for-pound decider as you will see, as this was as close to scaling two athletes to a common weight class, normalized for the factors you mentioned, as you will see. (BJ was at no real height/reach advantage and, as said, fought well against the size and weight of GSP previously.) GSP was the same physical athlete who was handled by BJ in the first fight, but he progressed his skill-set more.

    Now, taking your premise that GSP/Anderson/Fedor are all very relative close in status, the fact GSP exposed such massive holes in BJ's skill-set, in a manner not dependent solely upon weight/height/strength/reach, means one thing: the gap between these three and BJ is very substantial, all things normalized - i.e., his pound-for-pound status took a hit, like I said.

    Is that logical enough for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    So, in your estimation, it is entirely adequate to compare Fedor v., UFC HWs - you have even talked about Brock v., Fedor - but it is inadequate when speaking about BJ v., Dream LWs? Sorry, doesn't fly. I am comparing the DREAM LWs and their relative [better] competition to BJ, which is fair.
    When did I say this? All I said was, you should also consider that the fight would be in a cage under tested conditions where, for example, Eddie Alvarez has looked pretty average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    The fact is, the size and weight disadvantage for BJ in each fight was much less of a factor than you make it out to be;
    No, BJ made up for it with the fact that he was much more skilled than the other two. That is a testament to his talent/abilities.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    the second Penn/GSP fight was more or less normalized for skill progression v., skill progression - i.e., it was as close to a legitimate pound-for-pound decider as you will see, as the size and weight were obviously not a huge factor between them. GSP was the same physical athlete who was handled by BJ in the first fight, but he progressed his skill-set more.
    Yes, GSP progressed his skillset more than BJ, I agree, so now the size and weight disparity is much more of a determining factor. BJ's skillset no longer allowed for him to make up for the difference in size. Your argument is fatally flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Now, taking your premise that GSP/Anderson/Fedor are all very relative close in status, the fact GSP exposed such massive holes in BJ's skill-set means one thing: the gap between these three and BJ is very substantial, all things normalized - i.e., his pound-for-pound status took a hit, like I said.
    GSP put together a brilliant fight against BJ, but his whole plan was to wear down his shoulders and hips by leaning him in the clinch and laying on him in guard in the early rounds utilizing his size advantage. He said this in interviews. He didn't start to beat him up that much until he had worn him down using his size advantage. When a smaller guy comes up a weight class to fight, his rep doesn't take that much of a hit.
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