[Chuck Diesel]

Hey, I saw this product at NP, is that correct it contains 750mg of gynostemma at 95%.

I know alot about this herb and was the first to use it in sports supplements (anyway who cares, I know), the point is, if that correct some people might get huge headaches and big drops in blood pressure on that much gynostemma....if thats correct on the supplement facts.

[poison]

Everything I've seen says it MODULATES and NORMALIZES blood pressure.

[Chuck Diesel]

Originally Posted by poison

Everything I've seen says it MODULATES and NORMALIZES blood pressure.

yeah at like 50-100mg 3x a day. It can cause a fast drop in blood pressure at over 200mg at a time. I know like I said ive been using this in formula's since 2001/2002. Im just asking if 750mg is correct?

[Millennium 1]

Originally Posted by Chuck Diesel

yeah at like 50-100mg 3x a day. It can cause a fast drop in blood pressure at over 200mg at a time. I know like I said ive been using this in formula's since 2001/2002. Im just asking if 750mg is correct?

Yep, Chuck that's correct! 750mg per 6 cap serving.

No disrespect Chuck but I've used it at this dose for years and it has no adverse effect on BP at a gram or more per serving. If it had such a dramatic effect on lowering BP then everyone and their brothers would be marketing it as such. I've read 99% of the clinicals and none of them that I've come across state what you are talking about and I've never seen any real world evidence of it. If this were true then people taking several grams of ginseng per day would be experiencing the same rapid reduction in BP since gypenosides and ginsenosides overlap and have nearly the same effect. Nearly every postive clinical on oxygen utilization and endurance with jiaogulan was done on 200-500 mg 2-3 times per day without incident.

The only reason companies don't use more in their formulas is because it is expensive in doses that are effective. 50-100mg per serving won't produce any positive or negative effects when talking about oxygen utilization and endurance.

We suggest everyone start with a 3 capsule serving to assess the products potency but it has absolutely nothing to do with BP or jiaogulan content. The cordyceps is incredibly strong and a few may not tolerate 3200mg right off the bat unless they are experienced cordyceps users.

[Chuck Diesel]

Originally Posted by Millennium 1

Yep, Chuck that's correct! 750mg per 6 cap serving.

No disrespect Chuck but I've used it at this dose for years and it has no adverse effect on BP at a gram or more per serving. If it had such a dramatic effect on lowering BP then everyone and their brothers would be marketing it as such. I've read 99% of the clinicals and none of them that I've come across state what you are talking about and I've never seen any real world evidence of it. If this were true then people taking several grams of ginseng per day would be experiencing the same rapid reduction in BP since gypenosides and ginsenosides overlap and have nearly the same effect. Nearly every postive clinical on oxygen utilization and endurance with jiaogulan was done on 200-500 mg 2-3 times per day without incident.

The only reason companies don't use more in their formulas is because it is expensive in doses that are effective. 50-100mg per serving won't produce any positive or negative effects when talking about oxygen utilization and endurance.

We suggest everyone start with a 3 capsule serving to assess the products potency but it has absolutely nothing to do with BP or jiaogulan content. The cordyceps is incredibly strong and a few may not tolerate 3200mg right off the bat unless they are experienced cordyceps users.

ginseng and gynostemma are not the same but no one takes 1g of 95 percent ginseng extract.

I wasn't saying anything about the product good or bad, more on high doses of 95 percent plus extract of gynostemma. maybe the extracts you have are standardized for other gypenosides or something that require over 150 to 300mg/day. I don't know.

[Chuck Diesel]

also ginseng has like 20 ginsinocides, gynostemma has about 40 or more gypenosides and the two only share about 4 that are similar. I wouldn't call the effects of ginseng and gynostemma the same.

[ncangey0513]

i've read over jiaogulan quite a bit and have never seen anything about it causing a drastic drop in BP like you speak of, but on the other hand, i've seen many possible beneficial effects on the immune and cardiovascular systems. many of the plain jiaogulan products have very large doses and most users seem to report a normalizing effect on BP levels.

[ncangey0513]

Originally Posted by Chuck Diesel

also ginseng has like 20 ginsinocides, gynostemma has about 40 or more gypenosides and the two only share about 4 that are similar. I wouldn't call the effects of ginseng and gynostemma the same.

i think gynostemma has 82 like gypenosides (don't quote me on that). they share four that are identical, not similar, and almost 20 are identical when hydrolyzed. Matt didn't say that the effects were the same (read it again), rather that they are similar.

[Chuck Diesel]

Originally Posted by ncangey0513

i think gynostemma has 82 like gypenosides (don't quote me on that). they share four that are identical, not similar, and almost 20 are identical when hydrolyzed. Matt didn't say that the effects were the same (read it again), rather that they are similar.

they don't share 20 actives,
he said people would have blood pressure effects on ginseng as gynostemma. Anyway this is turning into a big deal, I am just going to figure there is a difference in gynostemma extrqct potencies.

[Millennium 1]

Originally Posted by ncangey0513

i think gynostemma has 82 like gypenosides (don't quote me on that). they share four that are identical, not similar, and almost 20 are identical when hydrolyzed. Matt didn't say that the effects were the same (read it again), rather that they are similar.

Correct! Gynostemma has 82 known and up to 86 gypenosides of which 4 (3,4,8 & 12) are identical to ginsenosides and make up the majority of the concentration of the known 82 gypenosides by weight. When hydrolyzed gynostemma and ginseng share up to 20 identical saponins. I'm certainly not saying that gynostemma acts identical, but they are quite similar in many aspects. Obviously jiaogulan has many more health benefits than ginseng.

Jiaogulan is an adaptogen and adaptogens normalize and balance. By saying that it can cause rapid drops in BP would be going against the very definition of an adaptogen. I personally have borderlined blood pressure and jiaogulan drops it 5 points max after a week of supplementing at 820mg of 98% gypenosides plus 200mg of full spectrum herb (Solaray makes it...check it out http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=SO-7240 ). I've used jiaogulan for about 6 years now off and on and I have never had a single adverse event (nor has anyone I know) to it or any of the other 5-10 adaptogens I use.


Soon I'll be hearing that we use too much cordyceps LOL

[Millennium 1]

Originally Posted by Chuck Diesel

they don't share 20 actives,
he said people would have blood pressure effects on ginseng as gynostemma. Anyway this is turning into a big deal, I am just going to figure there is a difference in gynostemma extrqct potencies.

Gynostemma is one of the most counterfeited and adulterated herbs that china exports. There is a huge difference in product and potency due to this very reason. The products that are adulterated may cause a drop in BP because they are adulterated with unkown crap. Judging by 99% of the clinical data I stand by jiaogulan in this 750mg dose is safe...

[poison]

Originally Posted by Chuck Diesel

I know alot about this herb and was the first to use it in sports supplements

Be honest: is this what you really came here to say?

[Chuck Diesel]

I didn't say "you use to much gynostemma." I said high doses can drop blood pressure (low). I then said there must be a wide range of extract potencies (as with most full potency extract with tons of different actives) that would allow someone to take 750mg of this exract and not see a fast drop in blood pressure and actually blood sugar.

[ncangey0513]

Originally Posted by Chuck Diesel

they don't share 20 actives,
he said people would have blood pressure effects on ginseng as gynostemma. Anyway this is turning into a big deal, I am just going to figure there is a difference in gynostemma extrqct potencies.

i said when hydrolyzed, Chuck.
Hobbs, Christopher. The Ginsengs 1996; Botanica Press.

or this

Liu, Dr. Jialiu., Blumert, Michael. Jiaogulan: China's Immortality Herb, Unlocking the Secrets of Nature's Powerful Adaptogen and Antioxidant. Torchlight Publishing, 1999.