[strategicmove]

Originally Posted by jasonschaffin;

Product looks great, but not sure if you can sway me away from Orange Triad with the occasional Poseidon/Blast...
(this means I want you to try to, tell me why yours is better)

MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.

[RisingAgainst]

Originally Posted by strategicmove

MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.

I agree, I've been taking everything seperately for a while, I've been waiting for somebody to get it right, and had high hopes for triad.. and those were FAR from reached. Matt knows I'm obviously picky with my vit's so I'm definitely impressed with this one, with probably a minor 10 things between BOTH compounds that I'd change.

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by strategicmove

MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.

Dude... solid, SOLID information here.

I mean... there are a so many multi-vitamin complexes out there on the market. Of those formulas, take 75% away. You're left with the ones that have sufficient amounts of vitamins and minerals for an active, young, athlete. Cut that number in half. You're left with a few multi-vitamin formulas that actually offer synergy in their profile. . . ....

Even fewer have the vitamins in usable forms.

This formula seems to have more than enough bioavailable vitamins and minerals of what your body NEEDS... and little to none of what isn't necessary.

If you're going to build a house, you might as well start with a good foundation.

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst

I agree, I've been taking everything seperately for a while, I've been waiting for somebody to get it right, and had high hopes for triad.. and those were FAR from reached. Matt knows I'm obviously picky with my vit's so I'm definitely impressed with this one, with probably a minor 10 things between BOTH compounds that I'd change.

Enlighten us please... what would you change about MVP-365 and ZMK?

[RisingAgainst]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

Enlighten us please... what would you change about MVP-365 and ZMK?

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

Bro, you've examined this very carefully and you've given amazing input thus far. I for one am not getting defensive. You know your stuff and I am really digging your input/posts. You actually inspire me to learn more in depth knowledge on vitamins and minerals. I know the basics as far as profiling vitamins, herbs, minerals, etc. but you obviously have a lot more to offer.

Have you ever considered formulating something yourself and patenting/trademarking it and selling it to a company?

[RisingAgainst]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

Bro, you've examined this very carefully and you've given amazing input thus far. I for one am not getting defensive. You know your stuff and I am really digging your input/posts. You actually inspire me to learn more in depth knowledge on vitamins and minerals. I know the basics as far as profiling vitamins, herbs, minerals, etc. but you obviously have a lot more to offer.

Have you ever considered formulating something yourself and patenting/trademarking it and selling it to a company?

I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst

I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.

Damn. I love your posts! REPS!!!!!

[strategicmove]

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst;

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

My comments are in bold in brackets behind your points:
ZMK:
-no iron (I do not see this as a disadvantage. Iron is one compound that can be easily overdosed with sometimes lethal consequences. If iron is added, then copper should also be added, so they adequately support each other)
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed? (Potassium is one mineral that one should be careful not to overdose. An important electrolyte, though. If you take diuretic compounds before bed, you need potassium, as diuretics deplete potassium stores).
-no calcium (calcium can also be obtained from nutrition and other compounds athletes take. Besides, there is some calcium in the MVP to compensate. Too much calcium and you would need to increase magnesium accordingly).
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (I cannot comment here).
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it). (Why is this a disadvantage?)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources). (Not to be dogmatically accepted. The 200mcg, not mg as you stated) is the amount recommended by the WHO, which may be conservative, depending on where one lives. As you know, selenium is one of the most powerful anti-cancer supplements around. The 200mcg lobby (not an attack on you) has been propagated by the pharmaceutical industry to secure the sales of their cancer-treatment drugs. Supplementing with adequate amounts of selenium daily can dramatically cut our susceptibility to cancer (proatate, colon, lungs, and so on). The USA belongs, by the way to the group of countries with relatively lower consumption of selenium (about 200mcg per day). The Japanese consume on the average 400mcg per day, and the population in Greenland about 1 280mcg per day (and they are still intact)! Overdose is relative and personal. Some symptoms of overdose include garlic-smelling breath, loss of hair and finger nails, liver problems, loss of urine, and so on. Apart from the amount, the form is also important. L-Selenomethionine, Sodium Selenite, and Selonodiglutathione are solid advanced forms.


- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or). (I thought the competition was between copper and iron. Zinc is crucial in more than 100 or so metabolic processes. Again, the form is important. Here, dosage should be limited to not more than 50mg or 60mg per day).
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols (Not sure what you wanted to say here)


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms (The form is important. And the dose, too. I take a minimum of 4gr of Vitamin C every day)
-2mgs of coq10? (I agree this is not useful. CoQ10 in the ubiquinone form should not be less than 500mg per day. The ubiquinol form is superior, being several factors more potent than the ubiquinone form)
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) (In my opinion, Vitamin D, especially, in its active form as a hormone is underdosed, especially in areas that have comparatively less sunshine. About 15 minutes per day in the sun provides all the vitamin D we need per day. For sedentary individuals, and for some athletes, supplementation is crucial).
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source). (Disagree. Added mixed tocotrienols make vitamin E an extremely potent antioxidant)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority). (Do not agree).
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (That's why they are both needed!)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed). (Agree. Especially miss a Ginseng complex and few others goodies).
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Agree)
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low (At least 100mg and some Citrus Bioflavonoids)
-ALA vs R-ala or other form (R-ALA is preferred in adequate amounts)
-No amino acid chelates

I personally have one or two other preferred changes. But, in general, this is one of the very best we have been fortunate to see. I am sure subsequent versions will be dramatically more potent.[/quote]

[Millennium 1]

Originally Posted by RisingAgainst

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

I think strategicmove summed a lot of this up, but; I will address each of these when I return to the office. These two formulas were thought out with extreme care and synergy in mind. Certain compounds were ovbiously omitted or dosed down due to capsule space but the majority of the reasons were that nobody would dare pay for a vitmin compound with 100mg or more of CoQ10 in it because it would be priced outrageously. I will post up my thoughts shortly, but I stand by the fact that we formulated the best two vitamin and mineral products allowable for the space and price period.

Thanks !

[RisingAgainst]

Originally Posted by Millennium 1

I think strategicmove summed a lot of this up, but; I will address each of these when I return to the office. These two formulas were thought out with extreme care and synergy in mind. Certain compounds were ovbiously omitted or dosed down due to capsule space but the majority of the reasons were that nobody would dare pay for a vitmin compound with 100mg or more of CoQ10 in it because it would be priced outrageously. I will post up my thoughts shortly, but I stand by the fact that we formulated the best two vitamin and mineral products allowable for the space and price period.

Thanks !

I stand by that to Matt, and there's no need to post your reasons, I've read them on another site, and I honestly feel you've OUTDONE yourself bro, I was just stating the MINOR things I would change, but am perfectly fine with... You don't need to explain to me why you put out the best multi around dude, I know it's good.. I know why you did this and that and I respect it 100%

[RisingAgainst]

Originally Posted by strategicmove

My comments are in bold in brackets behind your points:
ZMK:
-no iron (I do not see this as a disadvantage. Iron is one compound that can be easily overdosed with sometimes lethal consequences. If iron is added, then copper should also be added, so they adequately support each other) copper/zinc not copper/iron, no biggie, Iron is arguable either way here, so we're both technically right.
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed? (Potassium is one mineral that one should be careful not to overdose. An important electrolyte, though. If you take diuretic compounds before bed, you need potassium, as diuretics deplete potassium stores). this was hit on specifically for the reasons stated.
-no calcium (calcium can also be obtained from nutrition and other compounds athletes take. Besides, there is some calcium in the MVP to compensate. Too much calcium and you would need to increase magnesium accordingly). I was saying to EXCLUDE it completely... I don't need to supp it.
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (I cannot comment here).
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it). (Why is this a disadvantage?) Because it's not necessary. the dosing would miniscule, supping with phytos is easier IMHO
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources). (Not to be dogmatically accepted. The 200mcg, not mg as you stated) is the amount recommended by the WHO, which may be conservative, depending on where one lives. As you know, selenium is one of the most powerful anti-cancer supplements around. The 200mcg lobby (not an attack on you) has been propagated by the pharmaceutical industry to secure the sales of their cancer-treatment drugs. Supplementing with adequate amounts of selenium daily can dramatically cut our susceptibility to cancer (proatate, colon, lungs, and so on). The USA belongs, by the way to the group of countries with relatively lower consumption of selenium (about 200mcg per day). The Japanese consume on the average 400mcg per day, and the population in Greenland about 1 280mcg per day (and they are still intact)! Overdose is relative and personal. Some symptoms of overdose include garlic-smelling breath, loss of hair and finger nails, liver problems, loss of urine, and so on. Apart from the amount, the form is also important. L-Selenomethionine, Sodium Selenite, and Selonodiglutathione are solid advanced forms. Good arguement, although mg was a typo I prefer to stay on the low end for my own safety, but it's not a big issue IMO, I won't argue taking it.


- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or). (I thought the competition was between copper and iron. Zinc is crucial in more than 100 or so metabolic processes. Again, the form is important. Here, dosage should be limited to not more than 50mg or 60mg per day). Comp between copper/zinc.
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols (Not sure what you wanted to say here) I am against these (if used for lowering cholesterol, I prefer niacin ONLY)


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms (The form is important. And the dose, too. I take a minimum of 4gr of Vitamin C every day) Vitamin C IMHO shouldn't be dosed this way and in this form, no biggie, I prefer 500mgs 4 times daily though.
-2mgs of coq10? (I agree this is not useful. CoQ10 in the ub