MST MVP-365 Write Up and FAQ

[Millennium 1]

MVP-365™​

MVP-365™ is an athlete’s most complete multiple vitamin and is formulated specifically for the high performance nutritional and energy needs of the bigger, stronger and faster. MVP-365™ incorporates the most bioavailable forms of vitamins & nutrients including a high potency co-enzymal b-complex, mineral ascorbate vitamin-c, Krebs cycle intermediates & mineral chelates, adaptogens, greens, high potency food sourced antioxidants & phytonutrients. MVP-365™ provides optimal nutrient support and protection to combat daily stress and exercise induced free radical damage caused by intense training.*

We all strive to eat for optimal health & performance but it’s becoming harder and harder to gain and maintain proper nutritional stasis in this day and age. This is due to our overly stressful, high pace lifestyles & environmental pollutants robbing our bodies of vital nutrients. Combine that with the lack of nutrients obtained from our food due to soil depletion and we as athletes are at a major nutritional disadvantage.

Many top sport nutritionists agree that even if you eat a 100% organic diet you may still be nutrient deficient and require supplementation. Think of MVP-365™ as the first piece to your “Foundation of Health”, your insurance policy if you will.

Let’s examine what sets MVP-365™ apart from the competition.

Co-Enzyme B Vitamins provide the highest bioavailability and energy production efficiency of all forms of B’s. In order for various forms of B vitamins to be properly absorbed they require conversion into their active co-enzyme forms. Co-enzyme B’s do not require conversion and are shuttled directly to their target sites in their active form. This means more valuable B vitamins are absorbed and utilized for maximum cellular energy production as well as proper carbohydrate, fat and protein absorption, metabolism and utilization.

Mineral Ascorbates are natural mineral chelate forms of vitamin c, all of which have potent vitamin C properties. Mineral ascorbates maintain higher blood levels of vitamin C than ascorbic acid or other common forms of vitamin c due to higher bioavailability through multi pathway absorption. Vitamin C plays many important roles in our bodies. It is a cofactor / co-substrate for eight different enzymatic pathways involved in functions like hormone biosynthesis, collagen synthesis and ATP synthesis via the krebs cycle. Vitamin C is also well known for its role in strengthening the immune system, preventing lipid oxidation, supporting the adrenals and acting as a potent antioxidant.

Krebs Cycle Intermediates are organic acids that are absolutely crucial to energy production in every cell of our bodies. Citrate, Malate, Fumarate, Succinate and Alpha Keto Glutarate all contribute as intermediates in the vital Krebs cycle. MVP-365™ incorporates 454mg’s of Krebs cycle intermediates chelated to calcium. This not only bolsters the bioavailability of the calcium but also enhances the effects and efficiency of the mineral ascorbates and co-enzymal b vitamins in ATP production.

Adaptogens are unique compounds that increase our resistance to stress. Adaptogens help bring balance and stasis to the body providing a normalizing effect. Adaptogens provide protection to the adrenal glands balancing stress hormones and aiding in proper immune function. The adaptogens in MVP-365™ (ashwagandha, astragalus & spirulina) combined with the highly bioavailable co-enzymal b’s and mineral ascorbates provide comprehensive adrenal support and protection for exercise induced stress.

Greens are important to aid in maintaining healthy pH and in binding to harmful toxins and cleansing the blood. We have chosen to include cracked cell chlorella for its unique nutrient profile (organically bound beta-carotene, vitamin B-12, chlorophyll, iron, DNA, RNA & zinc) and its ability to bind up toxins for elimination. Spirulina was chosen for its rich polysaccharide content and its unique nutrient profile (including GLA fatty acids, chlorophyll and b-vitamins). Both Spirulina and chlorella display strong antioxidant effects as well.

High potency antioxidants & phytonutients are imperative to the health and well being of any athlete. MVP-365™ incorporates high ORAC value, food based antioxidants and phytonutirients to help combat the ravages of exercise induced free radical damage. Standardized extracts of pomegranate (40% ellagic acid), turmeric (95% curcumin), matcha tea (90% polyphenols), blueberry (16% chlorogenic acid), grape seed 95% OPC) and bilberry (25% anthocycanins) combine with alpha lipoic acid, lutein, zeaxanthin, co-enzyme Q10 and the highly bioavailable forms of vitamins A, C and E to make MVP-365™ and antioxidant powerhouse.

The “Delivery and Absorption” blend (of MSM, d-ribose, aloe vera extract 200:1, bromelain 2400gdu and papain 2400ups) in MVP-365™ provides digestive and assimilation support for the formula. We’ve added it to ensure that all nutrients are shuttled along nicely through the digestive tract for ultra fast absorption.

Formulated to target the specific needs of athletes MVP-365™ is not your typical low potency drug store, grocery store or health food store multi-vitamin. You can actually feel the energy from MVP-365™. Whether you are an elite endurance athlete, strength and power athlete, weekend warrior or gym rat, make MVP-365™ a cornerstone in your foundation of health! Why buy MVP-365™? Because your health and performance depend on it!

When taken together, MVP-365™ and ZMK™ combine to create the most complete and effective athlete nutrient protocol available.*

MVP-365™ does NOT contain any wheat, soy, corn, egg, milk, colors, binders, fillers or excipients.


Suggested Use:

Multi Vitamin Protocol: Take two MVP-365™ capsules in the morning with breakfast and two capsules with lunch.

Multi Mineral Protocol: Take 4 tablets of ZMK™ 30-60 minutes prior to bedtime.

The All Important Facts!

 

[Millennium 1]

MVP-365 FAQ's

MVP-365 FAQ’s​

Q: Why is there only 120mg of Calcium in MVP-365™?

A: Let’s count the reasons:

• Serious athletes consume ample calcium containing foods such as green leafy veggies, salmon, tofu, peas, broccoli, beans, nuts, fortified bread, fortified cereals, fortified orange juice and dairy products which include milk, cheese, and yogurt.

• Most athletes consume abundant amounts of whey and casein protein which are very calcium rich.

• Most athletes are already magnesium deficient. More calcium will only exacerbate this situation leading to further depleted magnesium levels, decreased recovery and muscle cramps.

• Space- We squeezed all of the MVP-365™ ingredients into four small OO size capsules for ease of swallowing. Any more mineral content would have increased the number of capsules in the serving or the size of the capsule.

Q: Where are all of the other minerals I normally see in multi-vitamins?

A: Most sport nutritionists recommend that you consume your vitamins during the day with food and your minerals at night before bed. 99.9% of vitamins you can purchase don’t allow for this. We omitted nearly all of the minerals in MVP-365™ (except the Krebs calcium, 20mg of Magnesium and Iodine) to make way for our nighttime multi-mineral complex ZMK™. The protocol is simple, take MVP-365™ during the day with food and ZMK™ at night before bedtime.

Q: What is ZMK™?

A: ZMK™ is the second piece in your “foundation of health”. Think of it as the ultimate mineral counterpart to MVP-365’™. ZMK™ is the only Krebs cycle chelated Zinc and Magnesium product with active co-enzymal P-5-P vitamin B-6 and a full spectrum Kreb’s cycle chelated mineral support blend. ZMK™ is formulated to not only maximize recovery, sleep, hormone stasis, pH balance and cardiovascular health but also to bolster ATP. ZMK™ is the perfect mineral compliment to MVP-365’s™ vitamins and the ultimate replacement for ZMA.

Q: Why doesn’t MVP-365™ have a joint blend or other blends in it?

A: We chose to make the best multiple vitamin available to an athlete based on the four most important nutritional needs of an athlete. We chose not to cut corners in any way and a joint or other blends simply didn’t make the cut.

Our goal was to provide-

• Ultra bioavailable vitamins in the body’s preferred active forms.

• Maximum antioxidant protection to combat exercise induced free radical damage.

• Maximum clean, long lasting energy

• Adaptogenic support for exercise induced stress.


Q: Why isn’t MVP-365™ whole food based?

A: There are two main reasons:

#1. The majority of so called “whole-food” based multi vitamins on the market are market incorrectly and should not be allowed to bear that name. Most consist of yeast or probiotics that are fed regular, non active, low bioavailable forms of vitamins. Once the yeast assimilates some vitamin content they are then freeze dried or spray dried. Does this sound like whole food? The fact is that these are vitamins bound to yeast or probiotics and even though they are a smidge more bioavailable than the conventional vitamins they were fed they are nearly always substandard and lack the proper potency required by an athlete.

#2. To get enough vitamin content out of a true “whole-food” vitamin (a vitamin actually made from whole foods) an athlete would need to consume a whopping 12-16 capsule daily serving. Four capsules just for 500mg of whole food based vitamin c.

Q: Why isn’t MVP-365™ in a veggie cap?

A: We chose to put MVP-365™ in a gelatin cap for its ability to dissolve faster in the stomach and assimilate faster than a veggie cellulose capsule. Some veggie caps require more time to breakdown than some tablets. We simply wanted a rapid release, fast acting product.

Q: Why doesn’t it contain more adaptogens?

A: “Synergy”! You see the co-enzyme b-complex & mineral ascorbates combine to make the best, most bioavailable “stress vitamin” combination available. When you combine the ashwagandha, astragalus and spirulina on top of that it’s quite an efficient adrenal support blend. It was potent enough to allow us capsule space for more antioxidants.

Q: Is MVP-365™ right for a woman even though it has no added iron?

A: Obviously we all have different nutritional needs. The fact is that most menstruating women tend be anemic due to a lack of vitamin B-12 rather than a lack of iron. MVP-365™ contains 500mcg of active B-12 as methylcobalamin. If you have been diagnosed as anemic by your doctor and are taking a separate iron supplement MVP-365™ is certainly compatible with it.

Q: Can an athlete with extreme nutritional needs take more than the recommended dose?

A: The combination of active and ultra bioavailable vitamin forms in MVP-365™ allows you to assimilate and use far more nutrients than conventional vitamins so it may not be needed, but; it is safe to increase the dose for those under extreme stress it. We do not recommend taking more than 8 capsules in 24 hours.

Q: Why is there only 25mg of P-5-P B-6 in MVP when all of the other B-Vitamins are higher dosed?

A: We chose to provide 25mg during the day in the MVP and an additional 25mg in ZMK for extra rapid assimilation and transport of the minerals. Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate is incredibly bioavailable and 25mg per day is plenty even without getting extra in ZMK.

 

[lionelxxl]

this looks neat!

Just a quick question. I see a lack of minerals in MVP. Was it meant to be stacked with ZMK?

 

[RisingAgainst]

Just a quick question. I see a lack of minerals in MVP. Was it meant to be stacked with ZMK?

Yes, it's in the FAQ bro lol

I have to admit, I'm honestly impressed, and for me to say that about a multivitamin is... well exceedingly rare. So congrats on this one, you may not have swayed my views on multis, but you may have me wanting to try it.

 

[Millennium 1]

Just a quick question. I see a lack of minerals in MVP. Was it meant to be stacked with ZMK?

Hi Lionel, Like RA mentioned the ZMK is meant to be stacked with the MVP-365 for optimal daily nutrient intake. There were a few reasons for the decision and a couple of them are outlined in the FAQ, but; we wanted to make sure we made the best decisions possible when it came to vitamin and mineral supplementation and with the forms of minerals we chose to use (for obvious reasons) there simply was not enough capsule or tablet room to make one product without it being a 10 capsule or 8 tablet serving (yeah, not desirable). The Krebs chelates take up a huge amount of space and simply wouldn't fit so we opted to make two stellar products that could be stacked. In the end it was the right decision as they work incredibly well.

Afterall most multi vitamins that people consume are low dose, low bioavailable vitamins with pixie dust amounts of minerals sprinkled in or inefficient forms like di-calcium phosphate (which is the binder/excipient in most tablets). The fact of the matter is if we had to put it into one product the serving size would be hyuuuuge or the tablet would be the size of a volkswagon.

Unfortunately in the world of supplement manufacturing the main problem with vitamins and minerals is capsule or tablet space. We managed to bypass the issue and make two very solid products that allow for proper nutrient timing.

Thanks for the support!

 

[Force of Green]

This product looks awesome. I dunno if I can replace my Animal Pak though

 

[T-Bone]

This product looks awesome. I dunno if I can replace my Animal Pak though

Hahahah Animal Pak, was that a joke?. Pretty funny!

 

[Urban Monk]

What would you guys say about someone that uses poseidon 3-4 times a day for minerals? Would you be able to omit the zmk mineral supp at night?

How about synergy w/ mvp?

Thanks!

 

[Millennium 1]

What would you guys say about someone that uses poseidon 3-4 times a day for minerals? Would you be able to omit the zmk mineral supp at night?

How about synergy w/ mvp?

Thanks!

Yes, you could omit the ZMK, but; magnesium carbonate, magnesium phosphate and magnesium sulfate don’t come anywhere close to the krebs chelates for bioavailability. If you want a full spectrum mineral complex opposed to just magnesium, potassium and zinc then the ZMK would be the best option.

The synergy between poseidon and MVP-365 would be great in my opinion. The energy would be off the hook.

Thanks

 

[Millennium 1]

This product looks awesome. I dunno if I can replace my Animal Pak though

Thanks man! If you are taking Animal Pak take a look at the ZMK product. It would do a great job of balacing out 2 grams of nearly unopposed calcium. If you've been taking it for a while chances are you might need some additional magnesium support.

Thanks again for the kind words.

 

[Millennium 1]

Hahahah Animal Pak, was that a joke?. Pretty funny!

I agree that there is no contest when we look at bioavailability, but Animal pak is very popular because low bioavailability equals cheap. MVP-365 wasn't formulated to be another Animal Pak or low bioavailable, ordinary multi vitamin.

Thanks!

 

[RisingAgainst]

Two quick questions broham...

MVP = Niacin? why?

ZMK = Selenium @ 200mcg?? Why?

EDIT: more specifically, I would have left niacin out and had 100mcg on the selenium, 200mcgs if not checked through diet could be potentially toxic, the deficiency in bodybuilders is there, but 200mcgs SPLIT throughout the day is the max, and this is found in our food as well. (just curious bruvva)

 

[workin2005]

Yes, you could omit the ZMK, but; magnesium carbonate, magnesium phosphate and magnesium sulfate don’t come anywhere close to the krebs chelates for bioavailability. If you want a full spectrum mineral complex opposed to just magnesium, potassium and zinc then the ZMK would be the best option.

The synergy between poseidon and MVP-365 would be great in my opinion. The energy would be off the hook.

Thanks

Agreed, On paper, this looks like a solid stack! :thumbsup:

Workin

 

[Millennium 1]

Two quick questions broham...

MVP = Niacin? why?

ZMK = Selenium @ 200mcg?? Why?

EDIT: more specifically, I would have left niacin out and had 100mcg on the selenium, 200mcgs if not checked through diet could be potentially toxic, the deficiency in bodybuilders is there, but 200mcgs SPLIT throughout the day is the max, and this is found in our food as well. (just curious bruvva)

Are you thinking niacin for flushing reasons? We used inositol hexaniacinate which is a non flushing form and acts as an important stress vitamin and is involved in the production of to enzymes relative to the Krebs cycle. I feel it’s a good choice in the MVP-365.


We chose to add 200mcgs of selenium to help maximize the glutathione peroxidase enzyme which is essential for the production of glutathione in “athletes” who are exposing themselves to major exercise induced free radical damage. Without adequate selenium the body cannot manufacture enough glutathione peroxidase and glutathione leading to higher levels free radical damage.

There is obviously a lot of information and misinformation on both sides of the issue. We’ve looked at all of the factors for toxicity and felt that 200mcgs was a very safe dose even for an athlete who consumes a healthy diet. The National Academy of Sciences' Food and Nutrition Board has stated that a daily intake of between 50 to 300 micrograms of selenium is "safe and adequate" and tolerable upper limits for healthy sedentary people ages 14-55 is 400mcgs per day. Remember that these are levels for your average person sitting on the couch exercising with their remote control. Athletes can obviously tolerate more due to the massive amounts of daily stress exerted leading to free radicals that need to be quenched and neutralized. Proven therapeutic doses often range from 200 to 400mcg daily and here has been no evidence of selenosis in US adults consuming up to 724mcg daily. The average daily selenium intake in the US is about 100mcg from food sources. Combine that with the 200mcg contained in ZMK and you have 300mcg. This is less than half of the dose (724mcg) believed to be the beginning of toxicity here in the US. Japan puts a more stringent number on selenium intake at 500mcgs per day and this would still put ZMK + dietary intake 200mcg below that.


Remember ZMK is for athletes, but even if a non athlete were to take it they would be safe.

Many studies have been conducted on selenium’s antioxidant and anticancer properties. One such lengthy study with people taking 200mcg selenium supplements had 71% fewer prostate cancers, 67% fewer esophageal cancers, 62% fewer colorectal cancers and 46% fewer lung cancers than the people who were taking the placebos.



Good looking out RA! It’s much appreciated.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Are you thinking niacin for flushing reasons? We used inositol hexaniacinate which is a non flushing form and acts as an important stress vitamin and is involved in the production of to enzymes relative to the Krebs cycle. I feel it’s a good choice in the MVP-365.


We chose to add 200mcgs of selenium to help maximize the glutathione peroxidase enzyme which is essential for the production of glutathione in “athletes” who are exposing themselves to major exercise induced free radical damage. Without adequate selenium the body cannot manufacture enough glutathione peroxidase and glutathione leading to higher levels free radical damage.

There is obviously a lot of information and misinformation on both sides of the issue. We’ve looked at all of the factors for toxicity and felt that 200mcgs was a very safe dose even for an athlete who consumes a healthy diet. The National Academy of Sciences' Food and Nutrition Board has stated that a daily intake of between 50 to 300 micrograms of selenium is "safe and adequate" and tolerable upper limits for healthy sedentary people ages 14-55 is 400mcgs per day. Remember that these are levels for your average person sitting on the couch exercising with their remote control. Athletes can obviously tolerate more due to the massive amounts of daily stress exerted leading to free radicals that need to be quenched and neutralized. Proven therapeutic doses often range from 200 to 400mcg daily and here has been no evidence of selenosis in US adults consuming up to 724mcg daily. The average daily selenium intake in the US is about 100mcg from food sources. Combine that with the 200mcg contained in ZMK and you have 300mcg. This is less than half of the dose (724mcg) believed to be the beginning of toxicity here in the US. Japan puts a more stringent number on selenium intake at 500mcgs per day and this would still put ZMK + dietary intake 200mcg below that.


Remember ZMK is for athletes, but even if a non athlete were to take it they would be safe.

Many studies have been conducted on selenium’s antioxidant and anticancer properties. One such lengthy study with people taking 200mcg selenium supplements had 71% fewer prostate cancers, 67% fewer esophageal cancers, 62% fewer colorectal cancers and 46% fewer lung cancers than the people who were taking the placebos.



Good looking out RA! It’s much appreciated.

Just trying to keep ya honest Matt.. I still retain my feelings on Niacin, UNLESS you only take this product at night, in which case I think it's ideal. I will tinker a bit with these when I get em

 

[Millennium 1]

Just trying to keep ya honest Matt.. I still retain my feelings on Niacin, UNLESS you only take this product at night, in which case I think it's ideal. I will tinker a bit with these when I get em

Thanks man! I see where you are coming from on the niacin. It is best utilized for raising HDL and lowering LDL cholesterol when taken at night. I really think you are going to like these

Have a great night!

 

[RisingAgainst]

Thanks man! I see where you are coming from on the niacin. It is best utilized for raising HDL and lowering LDL cholesterol when taken at night. I really think you are going to like these

Have a great night!

You're a mind reader to?? nice.. you do the same bro.

 

[UNCfan1]

I am impressed with this multi as well. Looks like I will be shopping for a multi again.

 

[Force of Green]

Ship this out fast so I can throw the Animal Pak away!

 

[Millennium 1]

Ship this out fast so I can throw the Animal Pak away!

Good news! ETA is 10-14 days

 

[Force of Green]

Good news! ETA is 10-14 days

Nice! Can you give us the MSRP on these 2 new products please? And what do you think the typical price will be seen as on one of our AM sponsored stores? What are we lookin' at here Millenium 1?
Thanks!

 

[T-Bone]

Nice! Can you give us the MSRP on these 2 new products please? And what do you think the typical price will be seen as on one of our AM sponsored stores? What are we lookin' at here Millenium 1?
Thanks!

$10 for each!!!.. Wishful thinking!

 

[Millennium 1]

Nice! Can you give us the MSRP on these 2 new products please? And what do you think the typical price will be seen as on one of our AM sponsored stores? What are we lookin' at here Millenium 1?
Thanks!

I'm confident that NP will have these for sale for less than $20each. Perhaps cheaper when purchased in the stack.

The MSRP that will be listed on our website before discount codes will be $39.99 for MVP and $33.39 for ZMK. Remember that we list everything at retail on our site as not to compete with our vendors.

 

[Force of Green]

$10 for each!!!.. Wishful thinking!

These two products and Animal Cuts should be a kickin' cutter!

 

[Force of Green]

I'm confident that NP will have these for sale for less than $20each. Perhaps cheaper when purchased in the stack.

The MSRP that will be listed on our website before discount codes will be $39.99 for MVP and $33.39 for ZMK. Remember that we list everything at retail on our site as not to compete with our vendors.

The PRICE IS RIGHT! <ding><ding><ding>

 

[Fabulous One]

I have to agree. Looks like it may be bye-bye to the trusty old ADAM multi.

 

[Force of Green]

I have to agree. Looks like it may be bye-bye to the trusty old ADAM multi.

I liked Adam as well, but I think Adam will be taking a trip to the garbage when this is released

 

[strategicmove]

I'm confident that NP will have these for sale for less than $20each. Perhaps cheaper when purchased in the stack.

The MSRP that will be listed on our website before discount codes will be $39.99 for MVP and $33.39 for ZMK. Remember that we list everything at retail on our site as not to compete with our vendors.

I am completely blown away! I can already imagine the intended amazing synergy between MVP and ZMK. The extremely generous Krebs Cycle Intermediates alone in ZMK and MVP are worth the price of both products! I will definitely add them to my arsenal. Excellent job!

 

[jasonschaffin]

Product looks great, but not sure if you can sway me away from Orange Triad with the occasional Poseidon/Blast...
(this means I want you to try to, tell me why yours is better)

 

[Force of Green]

Product looks great, but not sure if you can sway me away from Orange Triad with the occasional Poseidon/Blast...
(this means I want you to try to, tell me why yours is better)

Finish your Orange Triad and try switching to MVP 365 and ZMK, but why would you stop Poseidon and Blast? There's no need.

 

[strategicmove]

Product looks great, but not sure if you can sway me away from Orange Triad with the occasional Poseidon/Blast...
(this means I want you to try to, tell me why yours is better)

MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.

 

[RisingAgainst]

MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.

I agree, I've been taking everything seperately for a while, I've been waiting for somebody to get it right, and had high hopes for triad.. and those were FAR from reached. Matt knows I'm obviously picky with my vit's so I'm definitely impressed with this one, with probably a minor 10 things between BOTH compounds that I'd change.

 

[Force of Green]

MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.

Dude... solid, SOLID information here.

I mean... there are a so many multi-vitamin complexes out there on the market. Of those formulas, take 75% away. You're left with the ones that have sufficient amounts of vitamins and minerals for an active, young, athlete. Cut that number in half. You're left with a few multi-vitamin formulas that actually offer synergy in their profile. . . ....

Even fewer have the vitamins in usable forms.

This formula seems to have more than enough bioavailable vitamins and minerals of what your body NEEDS... and little to none of what isn't necessary.

If you're going to build a house, you might as well start with a good foundation.

 

[Force of Green]

I agree, I've been taking everything seperately for a while, I've been waiting for somebody to get it right, and had high hopes for triad.. and those were FAR from reached. Matt knows I'm obviously picky with my vit's so I'm definitely impressed with this one, with probably a minor 10 things between BOTH compounds that I'd change.

Enlighten us please... what would you change about MVP-365 and ZMK?:think:

 

[RisingAgainst]

Enlighten us please... what would you change about MVP-365 and ZMK?:think:

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

 

[Force of Green]

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

Bro, you've examined this very carefully and you've given amazing input thus far. I for one am not getting defensive. You know your stuff and I am really digging your input/posts. You actually inspire me to learn more in depth knowledge on vitamins and minerals. I know the basics as far as profiling vitamins, herbs, minerals, etc. but you obviously have a lot more to offer.

Have you ever considered formulating something yourself and patenting/trademarking it and selling it to a company?

 

[RisingAgainst]

Bro, you've examined this very carefully and you've given amazing input thus far. I for one am not getting defensive. You know your stuff and I am really digging your input/posts. You actually inspire me to learn more in depth knowledge on vitamins and minerals. I know the basics as far as profiling vitamins, herbs, minerals, etc. but you obviously have a lot more to offer.

Have you ever considered formulating something yourself and patenting/trademarking it and selling it to a company?

I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.

 

[Force of Green]

I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.

Damn. I love your posts! REPS!!!!!

 

[strategicmove]

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

My comments are in bold in brackets behind your points:
ZMK:
-no iron (I do not see this as a disadvantage. Iron is one compound that can be easily overdosed with sometimes lethal consequences. If iron is added, then copper should also be added, so they adequately support each other)
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed? (Potassium is one mineral that one should be careful not to overdose. An important electrolyte, though. If you take diuretic compounds before bed, you need potassium, as diuretics deplete potassium stores).
-no calcium (calcium can also be obtained from nutrition and other compounds athletes take. Besides, there is some calcium in the MVP to compensate. Too much calcium and you would need to increase magnesium accordingly).
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (I cannot comment here).
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it). (Why is this a disadvantage?)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources). (Not to be dogmatically accepted. The 200mcg, not mg as you stated) is the amount recommended by the WHO, which may be conservative, depending on where one lives. As you know, selenium is one of the most powerful anti-cancer supplements around. The 200mcg lobby (not an attack on you) has been propagated by the pharmaceutical industry to secure the sales of their cancer-treatment drugs. Supplementing with adequate amounts of selenium daily can dramatically cut our susceptibility to cancer (proatate, colon, lungs, and so on). The USA belongs, by the way to the group of countries with relatively lower consumption of selenium (about 200mcg per day). The Japanese consume on the average 400mcg per day, and the population in Greenland about 1 280mcg per day (and they are still intact)! Overdose is relative and personal. Some symptoms of overdose include garlic-smelling breath, loss of hair and finger nails, liver problems, loss of urine, and so on. Apart from the amount, the form is also important. L-Selenomethionine, Sodium Selenite, and Selonodiglutathione are solid advanced forms.


- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or). (I thought the competition was between copper and iron. Zinc is crucial in more than 100 or so metabolic processes. Again, the form is important. Here, dosage should be limited to not more than 50mg or 60mg per day).
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols (Not sure what you wanted to say here)


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms (The form is important. And the dose, too. I take a minimum of 4gr of Vitamin C every day)
-2mgs of coq10? (I agree this is not useful. CoQ10 in the ubiquinone form should not be less than 500mg per day. The ubiquinol form is superior, being several factors more potent than the ubiquinone form)
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) (In my opinion, Vitamin D, especially, in its active form as a hormone is underdosed, especially in areas that have comparatively less sunshine. About 15 minutes per day in the sun provides all the vitamin D we need per day. For sedentary individuals, and for some athletes, supplementation is crucial).
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source). (Disagree. Added mixed tocotrienols make vitamin E an extremely potent antioxidant)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority). (Do not agree).
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (That's why they are both needed!)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed). (Agree. Especially miss a Ginseng complex and few others goodies).
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Agree)
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low (At least 100mg and some Citrus Bioflavonoids)
-ALA vs R-ala or other form (R-ALA is preferred in adequate amounts)
-No amino acid chelates

I personally have one or two other preferred changes. But, in general, this is one of the very best we have been fortunate to see. I am sure subsequent versions will be dramatically more potent.[/QUOTE]

 

[Millennium 1]

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

I think strategicmove summed a lot of this up, but; I will address each of these when I return to the office. These two formulas were thought out with extreme care and synergy in mind. Certain compounds were ovbiously omitted or dosed down due to capsule space but the majority of the reasons were that nobody would dare pay for a vitmin compound with 100mg or more of CoQ10 in it because it would be priced outrageously. I will post up my thoughts shortly, but I stand by the fact that we formulated the best two vitamin and mineral products allowable for the space and price period.

Thanks !

 

[RisingAgainst]

I think strategicmove summed a lot of this up, but; I will address each of these when I return to the office. These two formulas were thought out with extreme care and synergy in mind. Certain compounds were ovbiously omitted or dosed down due to capsule space but the majority of the reasons were that nobody would dare pay for a vitmin compound with 100mg or more of CoQ10 in it because it would be priced outrageously. I will post up my thoughts shortly, but I stand by the fact that we formulated the best two vitamin and mineral products allowable for the space and price period.

Thanks !

I stand by that to Matt, and there's no need to post your reasons, I've read them on another site, and I honestly feel you've OUTDONE yourself bro, I was just stating the MINOR things I would change, but am perfectly fine with... You don't need to explain to me why you put out the best multi around dude, I know it's good.. I know why you did this and that and I respect it 100%

 

[RisingAgainst]

My comments are in bold in brackets behind your points:
ZMK:
-no iron (I do not see this as a disadvantage. Iron is one compound that can be easily overdosed with sometimes lethal consequences. If iron is added, then copper should also be added, so they adequately support each other) copper/zinc not copper/iron, no biggie, Iron is arguable either way here, so we're both technically right.
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed? (Potassium is one mineral that one should be careful not to overdose. An important electrolyte, though. If you take diuretic compounds before bed, you need potassium, as diuretics deplete potassium stores). this was hit on specifically for the reasons stated.
-no calcium (calcium can also be obtained from nutrition and other compounds athletes take. Besides, there is some calcium in the MVP to compensate. Too much calcium and you would need to increase magnesium accordingly). I was saying to EXCLUDE it completely... I don't need to supp it.
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (I cannot comment here).
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it). (Why is this a disadvantage?) Because it's not necessary. the dosing would miniscule, supping with phytos is easier IMHO
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources). (Not to be dogmatically accepted. The 200mcg, not mg as you stated) is the amount recommended by the WHO, which may be conservative, depending on where one lives. As you know, selenium is one of the most powerful anti-cancer supplements around. The 200mcg lobby (not an attack on you) has been propagated by the pharmaceutical industry to secure the sales of their cancer-treatment drugs. Supplementing with adequate amounts of selenium daily can dramatically cut our susceptibility to cancer (proatate, colon, lungs, and so on). The USA belongs, by the way to the group of countries with relatively lower consumption of selenium (about 200mcg per day). The Japanese consume on the average 400mcg per day, and the population in Greenland about 1 280mcg per day (and they are still intact)! Overdose is relative and personal. Some symptoms of overdose include garlic-smelling breath, loss of hair and finger nails, liver problems, loss of urine, and so on. Apart from the amount, the form is also important. L-Selenomethionine, Sodium Selenite, and Selonodiglutathione are solid advanced forms. Good arguement, although mg was a typo I prefer to stay on the low end for my own safety, but it's not a big issue IMO, I won't argue taking it.


- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or). (I thought the competition was between copper and iron. Zinc is crucial in more than 100 or so metabolic processes. Again, the form is important. Here, dosage should be limited to not more than 50mg or 60mg per day). Comp between copper/zinc.
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols (Not sure what you wanted to say here) I am against these (if used for lowering cholesterol, I prefer niacin ONLY)


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms (The form is important. And the dose, too. I take a minimum of 4gr of Vitamin C every day) Vitamin C IMHO shouldn't be dosed this way and in this form, no biggie, I prefer 500mgs 4 times daily though.
-2mgs of coq10? (I agree this is not useful. CoQ10 in the ubiquinone form should not be less than 500mg per day. The ubiquinol form is superior, being several factors more potent than the ubiquinone form) Agreed.
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) (In my opinion, Vitamin D, especially, in its active form as a hormone is underdosed, especially in areas that have comparatively less sunshine. About 15 minutes per day in the sun provides all the vitamin D we need per day. For sedentary individuals, and for some athletes, supplementation is crucial). Everybody that is athletic SHOULD get sunlight regardless.. hence my arguement is null and it's acceptable to be in there..
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source). (Disagree. Added mixed tocotrienols make vitamin E an extremely potent antioxidant) I wanted mixed to be the only source...
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority). (Do not agree). Vit K has no true benefit if eating a REAL bodybuilders diet to whom this is marketed to.. but it's debatable
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (That's why they are both needed!) I prefer supping only magnesium and leaving calc to diet.
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed). (Agree. Especially miss a Ginseng complex and few others goodies).
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Agree)
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low (At least 100mg and some Citrus Bioflavonoids) I would either not include it, or dose it properly.. preferably NOT include it.
-ALA vs R-ala or other form (R-ALA is preferred in adequate amounts) agreed, could do well without if supping on it's own to save on cost maybe??
-No amino acid chelates

I personally have one or two other preferred changes. But, in general, this is one of the very best we have been fortunate to see. I am sure subsequent versions will be dramatically more potent.

[/QUOTE]

I agree.. and you misread a few of my posts, and this is my fault for not being specific, but you touched on MY point instead of against them. I'll go through in Red to reitterate. you did great arguing your case, which in turn was actually part of mine and a miscontrued meaning was taken on your part at my own accord.
edit: reps to you man, great post.

 

[Fabulous One]

I read once over at iron addicts, some poster named trouble said that the MSM, glucosomine, and chondrointin(sp?) did nothing for the joints. She said something to the fact that it missed some major steps in conversions of something? I can't even remember, but I do remember her saying that Sam-e was the better choice for joints. Anyone got a damn clue to what I am trying to repeat here?

 

[RisingAgainst]

I read once over at iron addicts, some poster named trouble said that the MSM, glucosomine, and chondrointin(sp?) did nothing for the joints. She said something to the fact that it missed some major steps in conversions of something? I can't even remember, but I do remember her saying that Sam-e was the better choice for joints. Anyone got a damn clue to what I am trying to repeat here?

It's false but S adenosyl l methionine is good for joints.. Celadrin is as well..

 

[Fabulous One]

This is what I was talking about:

Alternative therapies for traditional disease states: osteoarthritis. Morelli V, Naquin C, and V. Weaver. Family Practice Residency Program, Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center. Am Fam Physician. 2003 Jan 15;67(2):339-44.

Americans spend more on natural remedies for osteoarthritis than for any other medical condition. In treating osteoarthritis, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, two of the molecular building blocks found in articular cartilage, are the most commonly used alternative supplements. In randomized trials of variable quality, these compounds show efficacy in reducing symptoms, but neither has been shown to arrest progression of the disease or regenerate damaged cartilage. Although few clinical trials on S-adenosylmethionine exist, preliminary evidence indicates that it relieves pain to a degree similar to that of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs but with fewer side effects. Clinical trials of dimethyl sulfoxide offer conflicting results. Neither ginger nor cetyl myristoleate has proven clinical usefulness.


What was interesting was the report of sam-e having anti-inflammatory action.

 

[Fabulous One]

Also speaking of this kind of stuff, look what she suggested for supplementation. Close to MSTs stuff?

So here it is:
SAM-e: 400mg; 2 times/day
NAC: 500-600mg; 3 times/day
GABA: 500mg (1/4tsp); 5 times/day; NOT before a Workout
ALCAR: 1-2 gram/2-3 times per day, pull back if nervousness manifests
Inositol: 1gram dose; 2-3 times/day + IP-6]: (1/16tsp); 2-3 times/day + Glucuronolactone[/u]: 800-1000mg (1/4tsp); 2-3 times/day
Taurine :800mg-1600mg; 2-4 times/day
KRALA(Glucophase XR):2-3 caps/day
Magnesium Citrate: 500mg; 3-4 times/day
B-6 (P-5-P form): 33mg 2-3 per day, before meals, taken with B12.
B-12: form dependant (tab, sublingual, injection)
BCAA: 5-10 grams/day, in 2-4 gram doses, with taurine and magneisum
CEE: 2-3grams; 3 times per day
Vitamin C(Ascorbate): 4-5 grams/day (due to present mass)


Missing:
Omega-3 PUFAn-3 fatty acids 3-4 grams
vitamin E: 400-800 mg, 400 mg doses
TMG 1/2-1 gram 2x/day
Digestive enzymes (first thing in am, after sam-e, before eating, with TMG)
carotene
zinc gluconate or other soluble anion form, 30 mg once per day
selenium methionate
general multivitamin/multimineral
lysine, biotin
bacopa, theanine, Rhodiola, Cissus, Cordyceps - all potent adaptogens.

valarian, melatonin (including time released), tryptophan - to boost Circadian control of cortisol and neurotransmitter synthesis.

 

[RisingAgainst]

Also speaking of this kind of stuff, look what she suggested for supplementation. Close to MSTs stuff?

So here it is:
SAM-e: 400mg; 2 times/day
NAC: 500-600mg; 3 times/day
GABA: 500mg (1/4tsp); 5 times/day; NOT before a Workout
ALCAR: 1-2 gram/2-3 times per day, pull back if nervousness manifests
Inositol: 1gram dose; 2-3 times/day + IP-6]: (1/16tsp); 2-3 times/day + Glucuronolactone[/u]: 800-1000mg (1/4tsp); 2-3 times/day
Taurine :800mg-1600mg; 2-4 times/day
KRALA(Glucophase XR):2-3 caps/day
Magnesium Citrate: 500mg; 3-4 times/day
B-6 (P-5-P form): 33mg 2-3 per day, before meals, taken with B12.
B-12: form dependant (tab, sublingual, injection)
BCAA: 5-10 grams/day, in 2-4 gram doses, with taurine and magneisum
CEE: 2-3grams; 3 times per day
Vitamin C(Ascorbate): 4-5 grams/day (due to present mass)


Missing:
Omega-3 PUFAn-3 fatty acids 3-4 grams
vitamin E: 400-800 mg, 400 mg doses
TMG 1/2-1 gram 2x/day
Digestive enzymes (first thing in am, after sam-e, before eating, with TMG)
carotene
zinc gluconate or other soluble anion form, 30 mg once per day
selenium methionate
general multivitamin/multimineral
lysine, biotin
bacopa, theanine, Rhodiola, Cissus, Cordyceps - all potent adaptogens.

valarian, melatonin (including time released), tryptophan - to boost Circadian control of cortisol and neurotransmitter synthesis.

her head and heart in the right place, just not the train of thought... SAMe affects mood/joints/and most of all liver values... this dosing scheme here is becoming outdated very fast. Including a multi is pointless... as I stated, 99.9% of them suck. You'd be better off sticking with Matt's kickass formula.. (I'm sure he would agree). She did nail a LOT of my daily staples though... so kudos.

 

[UNCfan1]

I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.

Dude not having a job is paying off huh:toofunny: Really good input Wayne as always.

 

[Millennium 1]

A few things actually...

ZMK:
-no iron
-No amino acid chelates
-Potassium before bed?
-no calcium
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
-Vegetable Sterols


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms
-2mgs of coq10?
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
-curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
-Quercetin inclusion even if its low
-ALA vs R-ala or other form
-No amino acid chelates

And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.

I hear where you are coming from and I know you don't need me to explain but since it was brought up I thought I'd touch on a few of the positives and negatives of the formulas and why we chose to make the decisions we did. Wayne you and strategicmove brought up some very valid points and there are a few things that may get tweaked in future batches, but hear are my thoughts

ZMK:
-no iron (most men (this is the number one market for MVP), whether athletes or not don’t need it because the amount of HEME and NON-HEME iron consumed in the daily diets of average adults and athletes is plenty) HEME iron is found only in red meat, fish and poultry and is absorbed much more easily than NON-HEME iron, which is found primarily in fruits, vegetables, dried beans, nuts and grain products. All of which are found in abundance in an athlete’s diet. For example one 6 ounce portion of beef round steak provides 9.2mg of HEME iron which is very bioavailable and absorbable.

NON-HEME sources of iron need a little help to be absorbed like a good source of vitamin C (ascorbic acid or mineral ascorbate). Oranges, grapefruits, tomatoes, broccoli, and strawberries, or a vitamin c containing multi vitamin consumed with a NON-HEME iron containing food will increase the absorption of the NON-HEME iron)

-No amino acid chelates (they aren’t needed. Very few amino acid chelates can beat the absorption or utilization of a pre-acidified mineral in a krebs chelated form. Not even bisglycinate. We experimented with two of the other more bioavailable chelates, orotates and glycinates and found that they didn’t work as well for the desired results even though they looked better on paper)

-Potassium before bed? (few people rebuild potassium stores post workout. Potassium before bed is no different than potassium during the day health wise except at night it is assimilated and utilized more efficiently. The potassium will help the magnesium have a more calming and relaxing effect on the body allowing for improved sleep too.) Potassium has an RDA of 3000mg and it’s only regulated in nutritional supps so people (mainly the elderly) don’t take enough to interfere with certain medications. 100mg is generally a very low dose)

-no calcium (Calcium was completely omitted from ZMK to avoid conflicting with the products intended purpose. We all get ample calcium)

-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (Possibly low if you are a low carb dieting bodybuilder who doesn’t eat greens or beans. Rich sources of molybdenum include legumes, cereal grains, and green leafy vegetables all of which are (or should be) abundant in an athlete’s/bodybuilders diet. Molybdenum is very well absorbed, but its bioavailability may be affected by some food components. The Krebs chelated molybdenum in ZMK is pre-acidified for optimal assimilation and will be absorbed more efficiently than 80mcgs of molybdenum from another source commonly found in other multi-vitamins for bodybuilders)

- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it) IMO this really is important to cellular integrity and immune function. Most of us athletes don’t get enough trace mineral content because we deplete it so fast during high intensity exercise. A healthy cell membrane is essential to ward off disease and trace mins help maintain electrolyte balance within the cell as well as cell wall integrity)

- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources) Contoversial and we’ve already touched on this above and strategicmove made the same valid points I did in a previous post. too much to type. I know where you are coming from though.

- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (here are a few reasons we added copper to ZMK. Copper tends to get depleted rather easily by athletes because of the following reasons associated with the athlete’s diet.

Iron: Excessive intake of non-heme iron may decrease copper status. Most athletes consume a lot of non-heme iron.
Molybdenum: Excessive intake of molybdenum may decrease copper status. Most athlete’s get it from food and supplements. We included molybdenum in ZMK so copper at 2mg is good balance.

Zinc: Excessive use of zinc may cause decreased absorption of copper. One explanation for this interaction is that high dietary zinc (50mg+) induces intestinal metallothionein. Copper has a stronger affinity for intestinal metallothionein than does zinc and displaces zinc in intestinal metallothionein and is trapped. This is another reason that copper was added. Even though ZMK’s zinc content is 30mg and not 50.

Vitamin C: We all know how important vitamin c is for an athlete but did you know that Vitamin C supplementation of 1,500 milligrams daily caused the activity of the copper transporting protein ceruloplasmin to decline. Vitamin C supplementation of 600 milligrams daily also caused a decline in ceruloplasmin, but copper absorption was not impaired. High intake of vitamin c requires slightly higher copper intake.

Concomitant intake of copper with foods rich in phytic acid (unleavened bread, raw beans, seeds, nuts and grains and soy isolates) may decrease the absorption of copper. These are all foods that are included in many of our diets.

Diets high in fructose may also decrease copper status. As athletes we all eat fruit and many of us use products post workout that contain high levels of fructose)

- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority) 25mcg of krebs chelated vanadium is perfectly safe for all people even the sedentary, but I see your point

- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation) (Through vast research we’ve found that in most cases amino acid chelates are not more bioavailable than pre-acidified minerals. Granted the body craves and assimilates glycine at a high rate but the mineral component still won’t be assimilated until it is pre-acidified. In this day and age of proton pump inhibiting medication (acid blockers), enzyme and vitamin deficiencies krebs cycle chelates make more sense due to bioavailability)

-Vegetable Sterols- Plant sterols are one of the few healthy flow agents and binders that can be used in tablet making. We could have called them phyto-sterols but that wouldn’t be 100% DSHEA compliant. These were not added for cholesterol reduction. We didn’t add niacin because it can raise blood sugar levels slightly in some increasing insulin which can inhibit growth hormone secretion slightly. We wanted ZMK to be completely stackable with Somnidren-GH and worked hard to keep Somnidren from elevating insulin at all.


MVP-365:

-Vitamin C forms (mineral ascorbates are far more bioavailable than ascorbic acid and keep serum vitamin c levels elevated almost twice as long as ascorbic acid. Sodium ascorbate can elevate serum vitamin c levels for up to 48 hours in most individuals. A higher dose would have required more space)

-2mgs of coq10? (Did you really want to pay for 100mg? I agree 100% that this is underdosed, but to keep pricing right it had to be. CoQ10 was added to lend a hand in synergy)

- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) Vitamin D is important and strategicmove touched on it nicely. I personally would have liked to see a full 1000iu included but it was cost prohibitive. Asians, Hispanics and African Americans all need supplemental D because of skin pigment restricting production of D in the liver. The levels recently studied and thought to be required by adult athletes is 2000iu per day although the RDA has not been adjusted to reflect this)

- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source) (we could have used a mixed tocotreinols or a gamma tocopherol but then the consumer really would have paid for it. These are both fairly cost prohibitive in a blend like this is it needs to remain cost effective.

D-Alpha tocopheryl succinate and mixed tocopherols are very bioavailable and play a good role in the synergy of the other antioxidants included. The succinate form is slightly more bioavailable than the mixed tocopherols)

- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate) (the magnesium is only the amount coming from mag ascorbate and had to be included in the fact panel if we were to remain DSHEA compliant. You do want us to be compliant right

- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority) (This could go either way, but I think it’s a nice fit and certainly isn’t in a form or amount that poses any particular problems for anyone) Remember that this isn’t just a bodybuilders vitamin…Athletes including triathletes who blow through nutrients like toilet paper in an ex-lax factory.

- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (Calcium mainly uses two compounds to be absorbed, Magnesium and Vitamin D. Without one or the other calcium won’t be adequately absorbed and can lead to increased blood calcium levels causing increased cramping, twitching, anxiety and other performance problems. Not that there is enough calcium in there to do that. Calcium is included because the 454mg of krebs intermediates are chelated to the calcium. I would have prefered to leave calcium out completely but the krebs intermediates are a solid touch and worth 100mg of elemental calcium. The other 20mg comes from the calcium ascorbate vitamin c)

- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed) (I agree but, once again I refer to the FAQ. Nobody wants to take 6-8 capsules and pay $50.00 per bottle? “No Way!” said 99% of people I talked to. This is why we took extreme care in formulating to combined synergy and total effect. Doubling the amounts of each would have added a couple of dollars and an extra capsule in the end for the consumer which wasn’t acceptable)

-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed (The Krebs cycle is the citrate cycle/citric acid and it is vital to life! With this in mind it only makes sense that citrate falls first. Citrate or citric acid is one of the best ways to pre-acidify a mineral for absorption. Even though the minerals are pre acidified they help to maintain and alkaline pH in the body like all minerals) We actually played around with orotates and glycinates for these formulas and they just didn’t work as well. Citrate, fumarate and malate are almost in 1:1:1 ratios.

-curcumin, co10, ashwagandha, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Once again we look at the combined antioxidant effect instead of the single ingredient dose. Even doubling the doses would have increased the end cost by a few dollars and required more capsule space. This would have been unacceptable in my opinion since MVP-365 is not meant to be your stand alone adaptogen or antioxidant)

-Quercetin inclusion even if it’s low (quercetin is a great compound and is valuable even in this dose) Most athletes suffer from elevated histamine levels. Quercetin along with the other bioflavinoids will help with the absorption of the already efficient mineral ascorbates. I agree that this could go either way.

-ALA vs R-ala or other form (again we have a cost issue! IMO 100mg of ALA combined with the other antioxidants provides great synergy and potency)

-No amino acid chelates (again they aren’t needed. Amino acid chelates get way too much love and they weren’t needed in this formula because they would have watered it down even more in the mineral department. We chose the krebs chelates for their high bioavailability and ability to increase ATP as intermediates in phosphorylation.

I know you werent bashing at all and your thoughts are truly appreciated. I just wanted to express my thoughts on the formulas a little. It would take me all day to address all of the decisions when it came to these formulas. In the end the two limiting factors on any supplement are space and end cost to the consumer. I think we did well in balancing these to create the best two products available for the price.

In all of my searching I couldn’t find a single multi vitamin or a multi mineral that could stack up to MVP-365 or ZMK in the formulation to cost ratio. There just aren’t very many good formulas out there.

In the end MVP isn’t meant to be your sole adaptogen or antioxidant but it is the best foundation/insurance policy product out there.

ZMK being a more efficient and “complete” ZMA mineral type of product puts it in a class by itself.

You guys all kick ass and I appreciate all of your feedback!:clap2:

 

[Force of Green]

Yeah... I kick ass.