I agree.. and you misread a few of my posts, and this is my fault for not being specific, but you touched on MY point instead of against them. I'll go through in Red to reitterate. you did great arguing your case, which in turn was actually part of mine and a miscontrued meaning was taken on your part at my own accord.
edit: reps to you man, great post.
I read once over at iron addicts, some poster named trouble said that the MSM, glucosomine, and chondrointin(sp?) did nothing for the joints. She said something to the fact that it missed some major steps in conversions of something? I can't even remember, but I do remember her saying that Sam-e was the better choice for joints. Anyone got a damn clue to what I am trying to repeat here?
This is what I was talking about:
Alternative therapies for traditional disease states: osteoarthritis. Morelli V, Naquin C, and V. Weaver. Family Practice Residency Program, Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center. Am Fam Physician. 2003 Jan 15;67(2):339-44.
Americans spend more on natural remedies for osteoarthritis than for any other medical condition. In treating osteoarthritis, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, two of the molecular building blocks found in articular cartilage, are the most commonly used alternative supplements. In randomized trials of variable quality, these compounds show efficacy in reducing symptoms, but neither has been shown to arrest progression of the disease or regenerate damaged cartilage. Although few clinical trials on S-adenosylmethionine exist, preliminary evidence indicates that it relieves pain to a degree similar to that of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs but with fewer side effects. Clinical trials of dimethyl sulfoxide offer conflicting results. Neither ginger nor cetyl myristoleate has proven clinical usefulness.
What was interesting was the report of sam-e having anti-inflammatory action.
Also speaking of this kind of stuff, look what she suggested for supplementation. Close to MSTs stuff?
So here it is:
SAM-e: 400mg; 2 times/day
NAC: 500-600mg; 3 times/day
GABA: 500mg (1/4tsp); 5 times/day; NOT before a Workout
ALCAR: 1-2 gram/2-3 times per day, pull back if nervousness manifests
Inositol: 1gram dose; 2-3 times/day + IP-6]: (1/16tsp); 2-3 times/day + Glucuronolactone[/u]: 800-1000mg (1/4tsp); 2-3 times/day
Taurine :800mg-1600mg; 2-4 times/day
KRALA(Glucophase XR):2-3 caps/day
Magnesium Citrate: 500mg; 3-4 times/day
B-6 (P-5-P form): 33mg 2-3 per day, before meals, taken with B12.
B-12: form dependant (tab, sublingual, injection)
BCAA: 5-10 grams/day, in 2-4 gram doses, with taurine and magneisum
CEE: 2-3grams; 3 times per day
Vitamin C(Ascorbate): 4-5 grams/day (due to present mass)
Omega-3 PUFAn-3 fatty acids 3-4 grams
vitamin E: 400-800 mg, 400 mg doses
TMG 1/2-1 gram 2x/day
Digestive enzymes (first thing in am, after sam-e, before eating, with TMG)
zinc gluconate or other soluble anion form, 30 mg once per day
bacopa, theanine, Rhodiola, Cissus, Cordyceps - all potent adaptogens.
valarian, melatonin (including time released), tryptophan - to boost Circadian control of cortisol and neurotransmitter synthesis.
-no iron (most men (this is the number one market for MVP), whether athletes or not don’t need it because the amount of HEME and NON-HEME iron consumed in the daily diets of average adults and athletes is plenty) HEME iron is found only in red meat, fish and poultry and is absorbed much more easily than NON-HEME iron, which is found primarily in fruits, vegetables, dried beans, nuts and grain products. All of which are found in abundance in an athlete’s diet. For example one 6 ounce portion of beef round steak provides 9.2mg of HEME iron which is very bioavailable and absorbable.
NON-HEME sources of iron need a little help to be absorbed like a good source of vitamin C (ascorbic acid or mineral ascorbate). Oranges, grapefruits, tomatoes, broccoli, and strawberries, or a vitamin c containing multi vitamin consumed with a NON-HEME iron containing food will increase the absorption of the NON-HEME iron)
-No amino acid chelates (they aren’t needed. Very few amino acid chelates can beat the absorption or utilization of a pre-acidified mineral in a krebs chelated form. Not even bisglycinate. We experimented with two of the other more bioavailable chelates, orotates and glycinates and found that they didn’t work as well for the desired results even though they looked better on paper)
-Potassium before bed? (few people rebuild potassium stores post workout. Potassium before bed is no different than potassium during the day health wise except at night it is assimilated and utilized more efficiently. The potassium will help the magnesium have a more calming and relaxing effect on the body allowing for improved sleep too.) Potassium has an RDA of 3000mg and it’s only regulated in nutritional supps so people (mainly the elderly) don’t take enough to interfere with certain medications. 100mg is generally a very low dose)
-no calcium (Calcium was completely omitted from ZMK to avoid conflicting with the products intended purpose. We all get ample calcium)
-borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (Possibly low if you are a low carb dieting bodybuilder who doesn’t eat greens or beans. Rich sources of molybdenum include legumes, cereal grains, and green leafy vegetables all of which are (or should be) abundant in an athlete’s/bodybuilders diet. Molybdenum is very well absorbed, but its bioavailability may be affected by some food components. The Krebs chelated molybdenum in ZMK is pre-acidified for optimal assimilation and will be absorbed more efficiently than 80mcgs of molybdenum from another source commonly found in other multi-vitamins for bodybuilders)
- Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it) IMO this really is important to cellular integrity and immune function. Most of us athletes don’t get enough trace mineral content because we deplete it so fast during high intensity exercise. A healthy cell membrane is essential to ward off disease and trace mins help maintain electrolyte balance within the cell as well as cell wall integrity)
- Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources) Contoversial and we’ve already touched on this above and strategicmove made the same valid points I did in a previous post. too much to type. I know where you are coming from though.
- Copper & Zinc in the same formula (here are a few reasons we added copper to ZMK. Copper tends to get depleted rather easily by athletes because of the following reasons associated with the athlete’s diet.
Iron: Excessive intake of non-heme iron may decrease copper status. Most athletes consume a lot of non-heme iron.
Molybdenum: Excessive intake of molybdenum may decrease copper status. Most athlete’s get it from food and supplements. We included molybdenum in ZMK so copper at 2mg is good balance.
Zinc: Excessive use of zinc may cause decreased absorption of copper. One explanation for this interaction is that high dietary zinc (50mg+) induces intestinal metallothionein. Copper has a stronger affinity for intestinal metallothionein than does zinc and displaces zinc in intestinal metallothionein and is trapped. This is another reason that copper was added. Even though ZMK’s zinc content is 30mg and not 50.
Vitamin C: We all know how important vitamin c is for an athlete but did you know that Vitamin C supplementation of 1,500 milligrams daily caused the activity of the copper transporting protein ceruloplasmin to decline. Vitamin C supplementation of 600 milligrams daily also caused a decline in ceruloplasmin, but copper absorption was not impaired. High intake of vitamin c requires slightly higher copper intake.
Concomitant intake of copper with foods rich in phytic acid (unleavened bread, raw beans, seeds, nuts and grains and soy isolates) may decrease the absorption of copper. These are all foods that are included in many of our diets.
Diets high in fructose may also decrease copper status. As athletes we all eat fruit and many of us use products post workout that contain high levels of fructose)
- Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority) 25mcg of krebs chelated vanadium is perfectly safe for all people even the sedentary, but I see your point
- chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation) (Through vast research we’ve found that in most cases amino acid chelates are not more bioavailable than pre-acidified minerals. Granted the body craves and assimilates glycine at a high rate but the mineral component still won’t be assimilated until it is pre-acidified. In this day and age of proton pump inhibiting medication (acid blockers), enzyme and vitamin deficiencies krebs cycle chelates make more sense due to bioavailability)
-Vegetable Sterols- Plant sterols are one of the few healthy flow agents and binders that can be used in tablet making. We could have called them phyto-sterols but that wouldn’t be 100% DSHEA compliant. These were not added for cholesterol reduction. We didn’t add niacin because it can raise blood sugar levels slightly in some increasing insulin which can inhibit growth hormone secretion slightly. We wanted ZMK to be completely stackable with Somnidren-GH and worked hard to keep Somnidren from elevating insulin at all.
-Vitamin C forms (mineral ascorbates are far more bioavailable than ascorbic acid and keep serum vitamin c levels elevated almost twice as long as ascorbic acid. Sodium ascorbate can elevate serum vitamin c levels for up to 48 hours in most individuals. A higher dose would have required more space)
-2mgs of coq10? (Did you really want to pay for 100mg? I agree 100% that this is underdosed, but to keep pricing right it had to be. CoQ10 was added to lend a hand in synergy)
- Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) Vitamin D is important and strategicmove touched on it nicely. I personally would have liked to see a full 1000iu included but it was cost prohibitive. Asians, Hispanics and African Americans all need supplemental D because of skin pigment restricting production of D in the liver. The levels recently studied and thought to be required by adult athletes is 2000iu per day although the RDA has not been adjusted to reflect this)
- Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source) (we could have used a mixed tocotreinols or a gamma tocopherol but then the consumer really would have paid for it. These are both fairly cost prohibitive in a blend like this is it needs to remain cost effective.
D-Alpha tocopheryl succinate and mixed tocopherols are very bioavailable and play a good role in the synergy of the other antioxidants included. The succinate form is slightly more bioavailable than the mixed tocopherols)
- Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate) (the magnesium is only the amount coming from mag ascorbate and had to be included in the fact panel if we were to remain DSHEA compliant. You do want us to be compliant right
- Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority) (This could go either way, but I think it’s a nice fit and certainly isn’t in a form or amount that poses any particular problems for anyone) Remember that this isn’t just a bodybuilders vitamin…Athletes including triathletes who blow through nutrients like toilet paper in an ex-lax factory.
- Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (Calcium mainly uses two compounds to be absorbed, Magnesium and Vitamin D. Without one or the other calcium won’t be adequately absorbed and can lead to increased blood calcium levels causing increased cramping, twitching, anxiety and other performance problems. Not that there is enough calcium in there to do that. Calcium is included because the 454mg of krebs intermediates are chelated to the calcium. I would have prefered to leave calcium out completely but the krebs intermediates are a solid touch and worth 100mg of elemental calcium. The other 20mg comes from the calcium ascorbate vitamin c)
- Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed) (I agree but, once again I refer to the FAQ. Nobody wants to take 6-8 capsules and pay $50.00 per bottle? “No Way!” said 99% of people I talked to. This is why we took extreme care in formulating to combined synergy and total effect. Doubling the amounts of each would have added a couple of dollars and an extra capsule in the end for the consumer which wasn’t acceptable)
-Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed (The Krebs cycle is the citrate cycle/citric acid and it is vital to life! With this in mind it only makes sense that citrate falls first. Citrate or citric acid is one of the best ways to pre-acidify a mineral for absorption. Even though the minerals are pre acidified they help to maintain and alkaline pH in the body like all minerals) We actually played around with orotates and glycinates for these formulas and they just didn’t work as well. Citrate, fumarate and malate are almost in 1:1:1 ratios.
-curcumin, co10, ashwagandha, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Once again we look at the combined antioxidant effect instead of the single ingredient dose. Even doubling the doses would have increased the end cost by a few dollars and required more capsule space. This would have been unacceptable in my opinion since MVP-365 is not meant to be your stand alone adaptogen or antioxidant)
-Quercetin inclusion even if it’s low (quercetin is a great compound and is valuable even in this dose) Most athletes suffer from elevated histamine levels. Quercetin along with the other bioflavinoids will help with the absorption of the already efficient mineral ascorbates. I agree that this could go either way.
-ALA vs R-ala or other form (again we have a cost issue! IMO 100mg of ALA combined with the other antioxidants provides great synergy and potency)
-No amino acid chelates (again they aren’t needed. Amino acid chelates get way too much love and they weren’t needed in this formula because they would have watered it down even more in the mineral department. We chose the krebs chelates for their high bioavailability and ability to increase ATP as intermediates in phosphorylation.
I know you werent bashing at all and your thoughts are truly appreciated. I just wanted to express my thoughts on the formulas a little. It would take me all day to address all of the decisions when it came to these formulas. In the end the two limiting factors on any supplement are space and end cost to the consumer. I think we did well in balancing these to create the best two products available for the price.
In all of my searching I couldn’t find a single multi vitamin or a multi mineral that could stack up to MVP-365 or ZMK in the formulation to cost ratio. There just aren’t very many good formulas out there.
In the end MVP isn’t meant to be your sole adaptogen or antioxidant but it is the best foundation/insurance policy product out there.
ZMK being a more efficient and “complete” ZMA mineral type of product puts it in a class by itself.
You guys all kick ass and I appreciate all of your feedback!
Yeah... I kick ass.
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Matt, I wanna thank you for taking the time to reitterate that for everybody here, I know you have reasoning behind everything man, and I love to see a brilliant mind in the industry that I can get along with LOL!! As mentioned before, you definitely have my cash on a twin pack! haha, if you want, I'll even give it a comparison on what I think is the most complete vitamin/mineral combo (I buy everything seperately and thats quite expensive) for feedback if you'd like. Also wanted to note, ZMK won my heart with the first glance at the label and you told me there's a chance the price is competitive with CMZ. MVP took some convincing lol!
Don't worry about me I'll be buying the MST Twin Powers when I run out of my current multi. Yeah, I thought the gal over at IA had some good ideas about stuff, but I wasn't sure about all of it. Plus, I didn't like the idea of having to buy dozens of different products.
The MVP and ZMK sound super to me.
Just an update! Stock will be ready to ship no later than Monday!
This thread is great. Love it!
**** off, vBulletin.You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Millennium 1 again.
I hope it was clear I did not bash Triad. I simply made objective comparisons.
In retrospect, it is amazing how much high-quality information is packed in this thread. In many ways, it ranks, in terms of information content, amongst the solid ones in this forum. I learned an incredible lot by just going through the contributions in thread. The thread rocks!
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Statements made by this online persona are the sole property of the owner, and do not necessarily reflect USPowders’ opinion as a whole.
Just a heads up! NP just ordered both the new MVP-365 and ZMK products. Expect them there in about a week!
Thanks for everyone's support!