MST MVP-365 Write Up and FAQ

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin;
    Product looks great, but not sure if you can sway me away from Orange Triad with the occasional Poseidon/Blast...
    (this means I want you to try to, tell me why yours is better)
    MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
    Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
    Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
    For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
    To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
    Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
    Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
    For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
    To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.
    I agree, I've been taking everything seperately for a while, I've been waiting for somebody to get it right, and had high hopes for triad.. and those were FAR from reached. Matt knows I'm obviously picky with my vit's so I'm definitely impressed with this one, with probably a minor 10 things between BOTH compounds that I'd change.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
    Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
    Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
    For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
    To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.
    Dude... solid, SOLID information here.

    I mean... there are a so many multi-vitamin complexes out there on the market. Of those formulas, take 75% away. You're left with the ones that have sufficient amounts of vitamins and minerals for an active, young, athlete. Cut that number in half. You're left with a few multi-vitamin formulas that actually offer synergy in their profile. . . ....

    Even fewer have the vitamins in usable forms.

    This formula seems to have more than enough bioavailable vitamins and minerals of what your body NEEDS... and little to none of what isn't necessary.

    If you're going to build a house, you might as well start with a good foundation.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by RisingAgainst View Post
    I agree, I've been taking everything seperately for a while, I've been waiting for somebody to get it right, and had high hopes for triad.. and those were FAR from reached. Matt knows I'm obviously picky with my vit's so I'm definitely impressed with this one, with probably a minor 10 things between BOTH compounds that I'd change.
    Enlighten us please... what would you change about MVP-365 and ZMK?
    Freedom means nothing here.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Enlighten us please... what would you change about MVP-365 and ZMK?
    A few things actually...

    ZMK:
    -no iron
    -No amino acid chelates
    -Potassium before bed?
    -no calcium
    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
    -Vegetable Sterols


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms
    -2mgs of coq10?
    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
    -curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
    -Quercetin inclusion even if its low
    -ALA vs R-ala or other form
    -No amino acid chelates

    And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by RisingAgainst View Post
    A few things actually...

    ZMK:
    -no iron
    -No amino acid chelates
    -Potassium before bed?
    -no calcium
    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
    -Vegetable Sterols


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms
    -2mgs of coq10?
    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
    -curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
    -Quercetin inclusion even if its low
    -ALA vs R-ala or other form
    -No amino acid chelates

    And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.
    Bro, you've examined this very carefully and you've given amazing input thus far. I for one am not getting defensive. You know your stuff and I am really digging your input/posts. You actually inspire me to learn more in depth knowledge on vitamins and minerals. I know the basics as far as profiling vitamins, herbs, minerals, etc. but you obviously have a lot more to offer.

    Have you ever considered formulating something yourself and patenting/trademarking it and selling it to a company?
    Freedom means nothing here.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Bro, you've examined this very carefully and you've given amazing input thus far. I for one am not getting defensive. You know your stuff and I am really digging your input/posts. You actually inspire me to learn more in depth knowledge on vitamins and minerals. I know the basics as far as profiling vitamins, herbs, minerals, etc. but you obviously have a lot more to offer.

    Have you ever considered formulating something yourself and patenting/trademarking it and selling it to a company?
    I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by RisingAgainst View Post
    I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.
    Damn. I love your posts! REPS!!!!!
    Freedom means nothing here.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by RisingAgainst;
    A few things actually...

    ZMK:
    -no iron
    -No amino acid chelates
    -Potassium before bed?
    -no calcium
    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
    -Vegetable Sterols


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms
    -2mgs of coq10?
    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
    -curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
    -Quercetin inclusion even if its low
    -ALA vs R-ala or other form
    -No amino acid chelates

    And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.
    My comments are in bold in brackets behind your points:
    ZMK:
    -no iron (I do not see this as a disadvantage. Iron is one compound that can be easily overdosed with sometimes lethal consequences. If iron is added, then copper should also be added, so they adequately support each other)
    -No amino acid chelates
    -Potassium before bed? (Potassium is one mineral that one should be careful not to overdose. An important electrolyte, though. If you take diuretic compounds before bed, you need potassium, as diuretics deplete potassium stores).
    -no calcium (calcium can also be obtained from nutrition and other compounds athletes take. Besides, there is some calcium in the MVP to compensate. Too much calcium and you would need to increase magnesium accordingly).
    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (I cannot comment here).
    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it). (Why is this a disadvantage?)
    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources). (Not to be dogmatically accepted. The 200mcg, not mg as you stated) is the amount recommended by the WHO, which may be conservative, depending on where one lives. As you know, selenium is one of the most powerful anti-cancer supplements around. The 200mcg lobby (not an attack on you) has been propagated by the pharmaceutical industry to secure the sales of their cancer-treatment drugs. Supplementing with adequate amounts of selenium daily can dramatically cut our susceptibility to cancer (proatate, colon, lungs, and so on). The USA belongs, by the way to the group of countries with relatively lower consumption of selenium (about 200mcg per day). The Japanese consume on the average 400mcg per day, and the population in Greenland about 1 280mcg per day (and they are still intact)! Overdose is relative and personal. Some symptoms of overdose include garlic-smelling breath, loss of hair and finger nails, liver problems, loss of urine, and so on. Apart from the amount, the form is also important. L-Selenomethionine, Sodium Selenite, and Selonodiglutathione are solid advanced forms.


    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or). (I thought the competition was between copper and iron. Zinc is crucial in more than 100 or so metabolic processes. Again, the form is important. Here, dosage should be limited to not more than 50mg or 60mg per day).
    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
    -Vegetable Sterols (Not sure what you wanted to say here)


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms (The form is important. And the dose, too. I take a minimum of 4gr of Vitamin C every day)
    -2mgs of coq10? (I agree this is not useful. CoQ10 in the ubiquinone form should not be less than 500mg per day. The ubiquinol form is superior, being several factors more potent than the ubiquinone form)
    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) (In my opinion, Vitamin D, especially, in its active form as a hormone is underdosed, especially in areas that have comparatively less sunshine. About 15 minutes per day in the sun provides all the vitamin D we need per day. For sedentary individuals, and for some athletes, supplementation is crucial).
    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source). (Disagree. Added mixed tocotrienols make vitamin E an extremely potent antioxidant)
    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority). (Do not agree).
    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (That's why they are both needed!)
    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed). (Agree. Especially miss a Ginseng complex and few others goodies).
    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
    -curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Agree)
    -Quercetin inclusion even if its low (At least 100mg and some Citrus Bioflavonoids)
    -ALA vs R-ala or other form (R-ALA is preferred in adequate amounts)
    -No amino acid chelates

    I personally have one or two other preferred changes. But, in general, this is one of the very best we have been fortunate to see. I am sure subsequent versions will be dramatically more potent.[/QUOTE]

  10. Quote Originally Posted by RisingAgainst View Post
    A few things actually...

    ZMK:
    -no iron
    -No amino acid chelates
    -Potassium before bed?
    -no calcium
    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
    -Vegetable Sterols


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms
    -2mgs of coq10?
    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
    -curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
    -Quercetin inclusion even if its low
    -ALA vs R-ala or other form
    -No amino acid chelates

    And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.
    I think strategicmove summed a lot of this up, but; I will address each of these when I return to the office. These two formulas were thought out with extreme care and synergy in mind. Certain compounds were ovbiously omitted or dosed down due to capsule space but the majority of the reasons were that nobody would dare pay for a vitmin compound with 100mg or more of CoQ10 in it because it would be priced outrageously. I will post up my thoughts shortly, but I stand by the fact that we formulated the best two vitamin and mineral products allowable for the space and price period.

    Thanks !

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Millennium 1 View Post
    I think strategicmove summed a lot of this up, but; I will address each of these when I return to the office. These two formulas were thought out with extreme care and synergy in mind. Certain compounds were ovbiously omitted or dosed down due to capsule space but the majority of the reasons were that nobody would dare pay for a vitmin compound with 100mg or more of CoQ10 in it because it would be priced outrageously. I will post up my thoughts shortly, but I stand by the fact that we formulated the best two vitamin and mineral products allowable for the space and price period.

    Thanks !
    I stand by that to Matt, and there's no need to post your reasons, I've read them on another site, and I honestly feel you've OUTDONE yourself bro, I was just stating the MINOR things I would change, but am perfectly fine with... You don't need to explain to me why you put out the best multi around dude, I know it's good.. I know why you did this and that and I respect it 100%

  12. Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    My comments are in bold in brackets behind your points:
    ZMK:
    -no iron (I do not see this as a disadvantage. Iron is one compound that can be easily overdosed with sometimes lethal consequences. If iron is added, then copper should also be added, so they adequately support each other) copper/zinc not copper/iron, no biggie, Iron is arguable either way here, so we're both technically right.
    -No amino acid chelates
    -Potassium before bed? (Potassium is one mineral that one should be careful not to overdose. An important electrolyte, though. If you take diuretic compounds before bed, you need potassium, as diuretics deplete potassium stores). this was hit on specifically for the reasons stated.
    -no calcium (calcium can also be obtained from nutrition and other compounds athletes take. Besides, there is some calcium in the MVP to compensate. Too much calcium and you would need to increase magnesium accordingly). I was saying to EXCLUDE it completely... I don't need to supp it.
    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (I cannot comment here).
    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it). (Why is this a disadvantage?) Because it's not necessary. the dosing would miniscule, supping with phytos is easier IMHO
    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources). (Not to be dogmatically accepted. The 200mcg, not mg as you stated) is the amount recommended by the WHO, which may be conservative, depending on where one lives. As you know, selenium is one of the most powerful anti-cancer supplements around. The 200mcg lobby (not an attack on you) has been propagated by the pharmaceutical industry to secure the sales of their cancer-treatment drugs. Supplementing with adequate amounts of selenium daily can dramatically cut our susceptibility to cancer (proatate, colon, lungs, and so on). The USA belongs, by the way to the group of countries with relatively lower consumption of selenium (about 200mcg per day). The Japanese consume on the average 400mcg per day, and the population in Greenland about 1 280mcg per day (and they are still intact)! Overdose is relative and personal. Some symptoms of overdose include garlic-smelling breath, loss of hair and finger nails, liver problems, loss of urine, and so on. Apart from the amount, the form is also important. L-Selenomethionine, Sodium Selenite, and Selonodiglutathione are solid advanced forms. Good arguement, although mg was a typo I prefer to stay on the low end for my own safety, but it's not a big issue IMO, I won't argue taking it.


    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or). (I thought the competition was between copper and iron. Zinc is crucial in more than 100 or so metabolic processes. Again, the form is important. Here, dosage should be limited to not more than 50mg or 60mg per day). Comp between copper/zinc.
    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
    -Vegetable Sterols (Not sure what you wanted to say here) I am against these (if used for lowering cholesterol, I prefer niacin ONLY)


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms (The form is important. And the dose, too. I take a minimum of 4gr of Vitamin C every day) Vitamin C IMHO shouldn't be dosed this way and in this form, no biggie, I prefer 500mgs 4 times daily though.
    -2mgs of coq10? (I agree this is not useful. CoQ10 in the ubiquinone form should not be less than 500mg per day. The ubiquinol form is superior, being several factors more potent than the ubiquinone form) Agreed.
    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) (In my opinion, Vitamin D, especially, in its active form as a hormone is underdosed, especially in areas that have comparatively less sunshine. About 15 minutes per day in the sun provides all the vitamin D we need per day. For sedentary individuals, and for some athletes, supplementation is crucial). Everybody that is athletic SHOULD get sunlight regardless.. hence my arguement is null and it's acceptable to be in there..
    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source). (Disagree. Added mixed tocotrienols make vitamin E an extremely potent antioxidant) I wanted mixed to be the only source...
    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority). (Do not agree). Vit K has no true benefit if eating a REAL bodybuilders diet to whom this is marketed to.. but it's debatable
    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (That's why they are both needed!) I prefer supping only magnesium and leaving calc to diet.
    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed). (Agree. Especially miss a Ginseng complex and few others goodies).
    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
    -curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Agree)
    -Quercetin inclusion even if its low (At least 100mg and some Citrus Bioflavonoids) I would either not include it, or dose it properly.. preferably NOT include it.
    -ALA vs R-ala or other form (R-ALA is preferred in adequate amounts) agreed, could do well without if supping on it's own to save on cost maybe??
    -No amino acid chelates


    I personally have one or two other preferred changes. But, in general, this is one of the very best we have been fortunate to see. I am sure subsequent versions will be dramatically more potent.
    [/QUOTE]

    I agree.. and you misread a few of my posts, and this is my fault for not being specific, but you touched on MY point instead of against them. I'll go through in Red to reitterate. you did great arguing your case, which in turn was actually part of mine and a miscontrued meaning was taken on your part at my own accord.
    edit: reps to you man, great post.

  13. I read once over at iron addicts, some poster named trouble said that the MSM, glucosomine, and chondrointin(sp?) did nothing for the joints. She said something to the fact that it missed some major steps in conversions of something? I can't even remember, but I do remember her saying that Sam-e was the better choice for joints. Anyone got a damn clue to what I am trying to repeat here?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Fabulous One View Post
    I read once over at iron addicts, some poster named trouble said that the MSM, glucosomine, and chondrointin(sp?) did nothing for the joints. She said something to the fact that it missed some major steps in conversions of something? I can't even remember, but I do remember her saying that Sam-e was the better choice for joints. Anyone got a damn clue to what I am trying to repeat here?
    It's false but S adenosyl l methionine is good for joints.. Celadrin is as well..

  15. This is what I was talking about:

    Alternative therapies for traditional disease states: osteoarthritis. Morelli V, Naquin C, and V. Weaver. Family Practice Residency Program, Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center. Am Fam Physician. 2003 Jan 15;67(2):339-44.

    Americans spend more on natural remedies for osteoarthritis than for any other medical condition. In treating osteoarthritis, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, two of the molecular building blocks found in articular cartilage, are the most commonly used alternative supplements. In randomized trials of variable quality, these compounds show efficacy in reducing symptoms, but neither has been shown to arrest progression of the disease or regenerate damaged cartilage. Although few clinical trials on S-adenosylmethionine exist, preliminary evidence indicates that it relieves pain to a degree similar to that of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs but with fewer side effects. Clinical trials of dimethyl sulfoxide offer conflicting results. Neither ginger nor cetyl myristoleate has proven clinical usefulness.


    What was interesting was the report of sam-e having anti-inflammatory action.

  16. Also speaking of this kind of stuff, look what she suggested for supplementation. Close to MSTs stuff?

    So here it is:
    SAM-e: 400mg; 2 times/day
    NAC: 500-600mg; 3 times/day
    GABA: 500mg (1/4tsp); 5 times/day; NOT before a Workout
    ALCAR: 1-2 gram/2-3 times per day, pull back if nervousness manifests
    Inositol: 1gram dose; 2-3 times/day + IP-6]: (1/16tsp); 2-3 times/day + Glucuronolactone[/u]: 800-1000mg (1/4tsp); 2-3 times/day
    Taurine :800mg-1600mg; 2-4 times/day
    KRALA(Glucophase XR):2-3 caps/day
    Magnesium Citrate: 500mg; 3-4 times/day
    B-6 (P-5-P form): 33mg 2-3 per day, before meals, taken with B12.
    B-12: form dependant (tab, sublingual, injection)
    BCAA: 5-10 grams/day, in 2-4 gram doses, with taurine and magneisum
    CEE: 2-3grams; 3 times per day
    Vitamin C(Ascorbate): 4-5 grams/day (due to present mass)


    Missing:
    Omega-3 PUFAn-3 fatty acids 3-4 grams
    vitamin E: 400-800 mg, 400 mg doses
    TMG 1/2-1 gram 2x/day
    Digestive enzymes (first thing in am, after sam-e, before eating, with TMG)
    carotene
    zinc gluconate or other soluble anion form, 30 mg once per day
    selenium methionate
    general multivitamin/multimineral
    lysine, biotin
    bacopa, theanine, Rhodiola, Cissus, Cordyceps - all potent adaptogens.

    valarian, melatonin (including time released), tryptophan - to boost Circadian control of cortisol and neurotransmitter synthesis.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Fabulous One View Post
    Also speaking of this kind of stuff, look what she suggested for supplementation. Close to MSTs stuff?

    So here it is:
    SAM-e: 400mg; 2 times/day
    NAC: 500-600mg; 3 times/day
    GABA: 500mg (1/4tsp); 5 times/day; NOT before a Workout
    ALCAR: 1-2 gram/2-3 times per day, pull back if nervousness manifests
    Inositol: 1gram dose; 2-3 times/day + IP-6]: (1/16tsp); 2-3 times/day + Glucuronolactone[/u]: 800-1000mg (1/4tsp); 2-3 times/day
    Taurine :800mg-1600mg; 2-4 times/day
    KRALA(Glucophase XR):2-3 caps/day
    Magnesium Citrate: 500mg; 3-4 times/day
    B-6 (P-5-P form): 33mg 2-3 per day, before meals, taken with B12.
    B-12: form dependant (tab, sublingual, injection)
    BCAA: 5-10 grams/day, in 2-4 gram doses, with taurine and magneisum
    CEE: 2-3grams; 3 times per day
    Vitamin C(Ascorbate): 4-5 grams/day (due to present mass)


    Missing:
    Omega-3 PUFAn-3 fatty acids 3-4 grams
    vitamin E: 400-800 mg, 400 mg doses
    TMG 1/2-1 gram 2x/day
    Digestive enzymes (first thing in am, after sam-e, before eating, with TMG)
    carotene
    zinc gluconate or other soluble anion form, 30 mg once per day
    selenium methionate
    general multivitamin/multimineral
    lysine, biotin
    bacopa, theanine, Rhodiola, Cissus, Cordyceps - all potent adaptogens.

    valarian, melatonin (including time released), tryptophan - to boost Circadian control of cortisol and neurotransmitter synthesis.
    her head and heart in the right place, just not the train of thought... SAMe affects mood/joints/and most of all liver values... this dosing scheme here is becoming outdated very fast. Including a multi is pointless... as I stated, 99.9% of them suck. You'd be better off sticking with Matt's kickass formula.. (I'm sure he would agree). She did nail a LOT of my daily staples though... so kudos.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by RisingAgainst View Post
    I already do And thank you for the compliments. Matt has the MOST complete formula out, and I am in no way opposed to buying it if it can save me some cash on vits/mins because that cost alone prevents me from buying new supps that seem to come out non stop. I'm tied to a company now, but have two of my own, one that I'm not officially with anymore, but still associate with and one that you will hear a lot of soon.
    Dude not having a job is paying off huh Really good input Wayne as always.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by RisingAgainst View Post
    A few things actually...

    ZMK:
    -no iron
    -No amino acid chelates
    -Potassium before bed?
    -no calcium
    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders
    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it)
    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources)
    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation)
    -Vegetable Sterols


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms
    -2mgs of coq10?
    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source)
    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate)
    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority)
    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or)
    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed)
    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed
    -curcumin, co10, ashwaghanda, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things
    -Quercetin inclusion even if its low
    -ALA vs R-ala or other form
    -No amino acid chelates

    And this is minor things.. I like the formula and am not bashing it.. I'm actually purchasing it.. so please don't get defensive with my criticisms.
    I hear where you are coming from and I know you don't need me to explain but since it was brought up I thought I'd touch on a few of the positives and negatives of the formulas and why we chose to make the decisions we did. Wayne you and strategicmove brought up some very valid points and there are a few things that may get tweaked in future batches, but hear are my thoughts

    ZMK:
    -no iron (most men (this is the number one market for MVP), whether athletes or not donít need it because the amount of HEME and NON-HEME iron consumed in the daily diets of average adults and athletes is plenty) HEME iron is found only in red meat, fish and poultry and is absorbed much more easily than NON-HEME iron, which is found primarily in fruits, vegetables, dried beans, nuts and grain products. All of which are found in abundance in an athleteís diet. For example one 6 ounce portion of beef round steak provides 9.2mg of HEME iron which is very bioavailable and absorbable.

    NON-HEME sources of iron need a little help to be absorbed like a good source of vitamin C (ascorbic acid or mineral ascorbate). Oranges, grapefruits, tomatoes, broccoli, and strawberries, or a vitamin c containing multi vitamin consumed with a NON-HEME iron containing food will increase the absorption of the NON-HEME iron)


    -No amino acid chelates (they arenít needed. Very few amino acid chelates can beat the absorption or utilization of a pre-acidified mineral in a krebs chelated form. Not even bisglycinate. We experimented with two of the other more bioavailable chelates, orotates and glycinates and found that they didnít work as well for the desired results even though they looked better on paper)

    -Potassium before bed? (few people rebuild potassium stores post workout. Potassium before bed is no different than potassium during the day health wise except at night it is assimilated and utilized more efficiently. The potassium will help the magnesium have a more calming and relaxing effect on the body allowing for improved sleep too.) Potassium has an RDA of 3000mg and itís only regulated in nutritional supps so people (mainly the elderly) donít take enough to interfere with certain medications. 100mg is generally a very low dose)

    -no calcium (Calcium was completely omitted from ZMK to avoid conflicting with the products intended purpose. We all get ample calcium)

    -borderline low molybedenum for bodybuilders (Possibly low if you are a low carb dieting bodybuilder who doesnít eat greens or beans. Rich sources of molybdenum include legumes, cereal grains, and green leafy vegetables all of which are (or should be) abundant in an athleteís/bodybuilders diet. Molybdenum is very well absorbed, but its bioavailability may be affected by some food components. The Krebs chelated molybdenum in ZMK is pre-acidified for optimal assimilation and will be absorbed more efficiently than 80mcgs of molybdenum from another source commonly found in other multi-vitamins for bodybuilders)

    - Naturally occurring 72 Trace Mineral Blend (Exclusion of it) IMO this really is important to cellular integrity and immune function. Most of us athletes donít get enough trace mineral content because we deplete it so fast during high intensity exercise. A healthy cell membrane is essential to ward off disease and trace mins help maintain electrolyte balance within the cell as well as cell wall integrity)

    - Selenium (Too high. Should be 200mg COMBINED with natural food sources) Contoversial and weíve already touched on this above and strategicmove made the same valid points I did in a previous post. too much to type. I know where you are coming from though.

    - Copper & Zinc in the same formula (here are a few reasons we added copper to ZMK. Copper tends to get depleted rather easily by athletes because of the following reasons associated with the athleteís diet.

    Iron: Excessive intake of non-heme iron may decrease copper status. Most athletes consume a lot of non-heme iron.
    Molybdenum: Excessive intake of molybdenum may decrease copper status. Most athleteís get it from food and supplements. We included molybdenum in ZMK so copper at 2mg is good balance.

    Zinc: Excessive use of zinc may cause decreased absorption of copper. One explanation for this interaction is that high dietary zinc (50mg+) induces intestinal metallothionein. Copper has a stronger affinity for intestinal metallothionein than does zinc and displaces zinc in intestinal metallothionein and is trapped. This is another reason that copper was added. Even though ZMKís zinc content is 30mg and not 50.

    Vitamin C: We all know how important vitamin c is for an athlete but did you know that Vitamin C supplementation of 1,500 milligrams daily caused the activity of the copper transporting protein ceruloplasmin to decline. Vitamin C supplementation of 600 milligrams daily also caused a decline in ceruloplasmin, but copper absorption was not impaired. High intake of vitamin c requires slightly higher copper intake.

    Concomitant intake of copper with foods rich in phytic acid (unleavened bread, raw beans, seeds, nuts and grains and soy isolates) may decrease the absorption of copper. These are all foods that are included in many of our diets.

    Diets high in fructose may also decrease copper status. As athletes we all eat fruit and many of us use products post workout that contain high levels of fructose)


    - Vanadium (exclusion of it for the majority) 25mcg of krebs chelated vanadium is perfectly safe for all people even the sedentary, but I see your point

    - chelated form (e.g bisglycinate/amino acid chelation vs krebs cycle CFMSA chelation) (Through vast research weíve found that in most cases amino acid chelates are not more bioavailable than pre-acidified minerals. Granted the body craves and assimilates glycine at a high rate but the mineral component still wonít be assimilated until it is pre-acidified. In this day and age of proton pump inhibiting medication (acid blockers), enzyme and vitamin deficiencies krebs cycle chelates make more sense due to bioavailability)

    -Vegetable Sterols- Plant sterols are one of the few healthy flow agents and binders that can be used in tablet making. We could have called them phyto-sterols but that wouldnít be 100% DSHEA compliant. These were not added for cholesterol reduction. We didnít add niacin because it can raise blood sugar levels slightly in some increasing insulin which can inhibit growth hormone secretion slightly. We wanted ZMK to be completely stackable with Somnidren-GH and worked hard to keep Somnidren from elevating insulin at all.


    MVP-365:

    -Vitamin C forms (mineral ascorbates are far more bioavailable than ascorbic acid and keep serum vitamin c levels elevated almost twice as long as ascorbic acid. Sodium ascorbate can elevate serum vitamin c levels for up to 48 hours in most individuals. A higher dose would have required more space)

    -2mgs of coq10? (Did you really want to pay for 100mg? I agree 100% that this is underdosed, but to keep pricing right it had to be. CoQ10 was added to lend a hand in synergy)

    - Vitamin D (exclusion of it for the majority) Vitamin D is important and strategicmove touched on it nicely. I personally would have liked to see a full 1000iu included but it was cost prohibitive. Asians, Hispanics and African Americans all need supplemental D because of skin pigment restricting production of D in the liver. The levels recently studied and thought to be required by adult athletes is 2000iu per day although the RDA has not been adjusted to reflect this)

    - Vitamin E (MIXED tocopherols as main, if not only, source) (we could have used a mixed tocotreinols or a gamma tocopherol but then the consumer really would have paid for it. These are both fairly cost prohibitive in a blend like this is it needs to remain cost effective.

    D-Alpha tocopheryl succinate and mixed tocopherols are very bioavailable and play a good role in the synergy of the other antioxidants included. The succinate form is slightly more bioavailable than the mixed tocopherols)


    - Magnesium (Chelated instead of ascorbate) (the magnesium is only the amount coming from mag ascorbate and had to be included in the fact panel if we were to remain DSHEA compliant. You do want us to be compliant right

    - Vitamin K (exclusion of it for the majority) (This could go either way, but I think itís a nice fit and certainly isnít in a form or amount that poses any particular problems for anyone) Remember that this isnít just a bodybuilders vitaminÖAthletes including triathletes who blow through nutrients like toilet paper in an ex-lax factory.

    - Magnesium and Calcium in the same formula (absorption of either or) (Calcium mainly uses two compounds to be absorbed, Magnesium and Vitamin D. Without one or the other calcium wonít be adequately absorbed and can lead to increased blood calcium levels causing increased cramping, twitching, anxiety and other performance problems. Not that there is enough calcium in there to do that. Calcium is included because the 454mg of krebs intermediates are chelated to the calcium. I would have prefered to leave calcium out completely but the krebs intermediates are a solid touch and worth 100mg of elemental calcium. The other 20mg comes from the calcium ascorbate vitamin c)

    - Herbal extacts (extreme underdosed) (I agree but, once again I refer to the FAQ. Nobody wants to take 6-8 capsules and pay $50.00 per bottle? ďNo Way!Ē said 99% of people I talked to. This is why we took extreme care in formulating to combined synergy and total effect. Doubling the amounts of each would have added a couple of dollars and an extra capsule in the end for the consumer which wasnít acceptable)

    -Citrate is the first krebs cycle one listed (The Krebs cycle is the citrate cycle/citric acid and it is vital to life! With this in mind it only makes sense that citrate falls first. Citrate or citric acid is one of the best ways to pre-acidify a mineral for absorption. Even though the minerals are pre acidified they help to maintain and alkaline pH in the body like all minerals) We actually played around with orotates and glycinates for these formulas and they just didnít work as well. Citrate, fumarate and malate are almost in 1:1:1 ratios.

    -curcumin, co10, ashwagandha, grape seed, are under dosed... among other things (Once again we look at the combined antioxidant effect instead of the single ingredient dose. Even doubling the doses would have increased the end cost by a few dollars and required more capsule space. This would have been unacceptable in my opinion since MVP-365 is not meant to be your stand alone adaptogen or antioxidant)

    -Quercetin inclusion even if itís low (quercetin is a great compound and is valuable even in this dose) Most athletes suffer from elevated histamine levels. Quercetin along with the other bioflavinoids will help with the absorption of the already efficient mineral ascorbates. I agree that this could go either way.

    -ALA vs R-ala or other form (again we have a cost issue! IMO 100mg of ALA combined with the other antioxidants provides great synergy and potency)

    -No amino acid chelates (again they arenít needed. Amino acid chelates get way too much love and they werenít needed in this formula because they would have watered it down even more in the mineral department. We chose the krebs chelates for their high bioavailability and ability to increase ATP as intermediates in phosphorylation.

    I know you werent bashing at all and your thoughts are truly appreciated. I just wanted to express my thoughts on the formulas a little. It would take me all day to address all of the decisions when it came to these formulas. In the end the two limiting factors on any supplement are space and end cost to the consumer. I think we did well in balancing these to create the best two products available for the price.

    In all of my searching I couldnít find a single multi vitamin or a multi mineral that could stack up to MVP-365 or ZMK in the formulation to cost ratio. There just arenít very many good formulas out there.

    In the end MVP isnít meant to be your sole adaptogen or antioxidant but it is the best foundation/insurance policy product out there.

    ZMK being a more efficient and ďcompleteĒ ZMA mineral type of product puts it in a class by itself.

    You guys all kick ass and I appreciate all of your feedback!

  20. Yeah... I kick ass.
    Freedom means nothing here.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Yeah... I kick ass.
    Yes sir!

  22. Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    Product looks great, but not sure if you can sway me away from Orange Triad with the occasional Poseidon/Blast...
    (this means I want you to try to, tell me why yours is better)
    I think strategicmove made the points nicely below. I would love to break Triad down and slam it but that is not why we are here. We preferred to make the best multi vitamin and mineral products available without veering off course ad getting side tracked. If you need a joint complex then Triad would be a good choice. If you need the most bioavailable vitamin and mineral then MVP-365 and ZMK win out.

    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    MST should respond to this. Yet, I think one can also consider the options and take a decision based on one's convictions. Personally, I would prefer the MVP-ZMK option. Why? Take the individual vitamins, for instance. MVP provides more bio-available vitamin forms at higher doses.
    Vitamin C is available as a superior complex in a higher amount versus the basic ascorbic acid in Triad; Vitamin E is available as the superior d-alpha tocopheryl-succinate and mixed tocopherols forms versus the standard d-alpha tocepheryl form in Triad; MVP delivers a better combination of riboflavin and riboflavin 5' phosphate versus the simple Riboflavin in Triad; Niacin in MVP is available as the solid inositol hexaniacinate form versus the simple niacinamide in Triad; Vitamin B6 in MVP (and ZMK) is available as the superior pyridoxal 5' phosphate versus the basic pyridoxine in Triad (the body must convert pyridoxine into pyridoxal 5' phosphate to be able to use vitamin B6); Vitamin B12 in MVP is the vastly superior methylcobalamin form, the form the body can use directly, compared to the standard cyanocobalamin form in Triad that needs to be converted first to methylcobalamin. Then check out the Pantethine form of Vitamin B5 in MVP, again the avtive form of B5, compared with the simple Pantothenic Acid in Triad. And so on. Very few multivitamin products utilize the advanced bio-available vitamin forms in MVP. Not even to mention the Krebs Cycle Intermediates in MVP and ZMK. In my eyes, really an awesome combination, although there are one or two additional compounds I miss. But this is the first version that can still be tweaked. Nevertheless, even in this version, MVP and ZMK are still far ahead of the pack.
    Triad definitely has its attractions in the form of the Joint Complex (Glucosamine Sulfate and Chrondoitin Sulfate), the Flex Complex (MSM), and parts of the Digestion and Immune Complex, some of which are available either directly or in comparable alternatives in MVP/ZMK.
    For athletes that benefit from Cissus and that are currently taking that compound, the absence of a comparable Joint Complex in MVP/ZMK is not a disadvantage of any type. Besides, Glucosamine and Chrondoitin, even in their superior sulfate forms, take longer to produce benefits for many athletes versus cissus.
    To conclude, I would invest my dollars in MVP/ZMK. You might decide differently.

  23. Matt, I wanna thank you for taking the time to reitterate that for everybody here, I know you have reasoning behind everything man, and I love to see a brilliant mind in the industry that I can get along with LOL!! As mentioned before, you definitely have my cash on a twin pack! haha, if you want, I'll even give it a comparison on what I think is the most complete vitamin/mineral combo (I buy everything seperately and thats quite expensive) for feedback if you'd like. Also wanted to note, ZMK won my heart with the first glance at the label and you told me there's a chance the price is competitive with CMZ. MVP took some convincing lol!

  24. Don't worry about me I'll be buying the MST Twin Powers when I run out of my current multi. Yeah, I thought the gal over at IA had some good ideas about stuff, but I wasn't sure about all of it. Plus, I didn't like the idea of having to buy dozens of different products.

    The MVP and ZMK sound super to me.

  25. Just an update! Stock will be ready to ship no later than Monday!

  26. This thread is great. Love it!

  27. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Millennium 1 again.
    **** off, vBulletin.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Millennium 1 View Post

    You guys all kick ass and I appreciate all of your feedback!
    The feeling is mutual, Matt!
    Product Educator | USPowders
    Statements made by this online persona are the sole property of the owner, and do not necessarily reflect USPowdersí opinion as a whole.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Millennium 1 View Post
    I think strategicmove made the points nicely below. I would love to break Triad down and slam it but that is not why we are here. We preferred to make the best multi vitamin and mineral products available without veering off course ad getting side tracked....
    Thanks, Matt! Even at the risk of repeating myself, I would like to say you managed, in the form of MVP-365 and ZMK, to put together an innovative and awesome stack with breakthrough synergy in a completely new league. You just raised the bar several scales higher. I simply reflect the consensus in this thread when I make such comments. Great job!
    I hope it was clear I did not bash Triad. I simply made objective comparisons.
    In retrospect, it is amazing how much high-quality information is packed in this thread. In many ways, it ranks, in terms of information content, amongst the solid ones in this forum. I learned an incredible lot by just going through the contributions in thread. The thread rocks!
    Product Educator | USPowders
    Statements made by this online persona are the sole property of the owner, and do not necessarily reflect USPowdersí opinion as a whole.

  30. Just a heads up! NP just ordered both the new MVP-365 and ZMK products. Expect them there in about a week!

    Thanks for everyone's support!
  •   

      
     

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