what happens if I quit trt

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    what happens if I quit trt


    Since it doesn't seem to be working, what would happen if I just stopped doing all the TRT and supplements I am taking? 2 months now, and zero results.

    Still can't lose weight, weaker in the gym than I was before I started. Libido is slightly better, but could be in my mind.

    I am spending money like I actually can afford it, and for nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    Since it doesn't seem to be working, what would happen if I just stopped doing all the TRT and supplements I am taking? 2 months now, and zero results.

    Still can't lose weight, weaker in the gym than I was before I started. Libido is slightly better, but could be in my mind.

    I am spending money like I actually can afford it, and for nothing.
    I did not stopped my
    Testosterone, Anastrozole and HCG.
    I monitor their effectiveness using tests from Quest Diagnostics.

    Results in gym are easier to measure but not the only health benefits of TRT and other supplements.

    But I stopped all other supplements for two months.
    It was in preparation for my NutrEval test at Genova Diagnostics.

    I send the samples about three weeks ago, within next week or so, when the eport is in, I should have better understanding of what supplements I actually need.
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    How old are you? What tests have you done?
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    You asked for it, I think almost everything that could be tested, was tested!

    Here were my pre treatment numbers:
    Testosterone: 296
    Free T: 12.1 (5-21)
    Pregnenolone: <10 (<20-100)
    Progesterone: .7 (.3-1.2)
    DHEA: 340 (107-745).
    Cortisol: 15.8 (4-22)
    Estradiol, free: 1.0 (.8-3.5)
    Estradiol, serum: 21 (0-53)
    PSA: 1.7 (0-4.0).
    SHBG: 26 (20-60)
    IGF-1: 261 (94-252). One good result!!!!
    Magnesium: 4.3 (4.2-6.8).
    Selenium: 380 (42-1400).
    Zinc: 980 (1000-2000)
    Vit D: 34.1 (32-100).
    Vitamin C: .2 (.4-2.0)
    Vitamin B1 and B12 were both high
    Insulin: 3.2 (0-29)
    C-Reactive Protein: 4.91 (0-1.0)
    Fibrinogen: 474 (193-423)

    I also got these done a few weeks later:

    Serum estradiol: 4.8 (.8-3.5)
    Free estradiol %: 4.5 (1.7-5.4)
    Serum free estradiol: 2.2 (.2-1.5)
    SHBG: 26 (20-60)
    DHT: 90 (30-85). Dr said not a big deal in his opinion unless it got to be over 100
    Homoscysteine: 9.6 (0-15.0)

    Thyroid test was in February:
    TSH 3.129 (.35-5.50)
    T3: 2.9 (2.3-4.2)
    T4, Free (Direct): 1.31 (.61-1.76)

    Urine test for neurotransmitters, done pre HRT:
    Epinephrine: 9.3 (8-12).
    Norepinephrine: 19.9 (35-50) LOW
    Dopamine: 160.8 (110-175)
    Seratonin: 88.0 (150-200) LOW
    GABA: 4.1 (1.5-4.0) HIGH
    Glutamine: 330.4 (150-400)
    Glutamate: 24.1 (10-35)
    PEA: 413.6 (175-460)
    Taurine: 313 (150-550)
    Glycine: 245 (200-400)
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    Here is my regimen given by doc:

    Perque Life Guard mulitvitamin: 2 tabs twice a day.
    LEF DHEA: 25 mg per day
    CLA: 1g twice a day
    LEF Pregnenolone: 100 mg a day
    LEF Ascorbyl palmitate: 2 a day
    Vitamin C buffered powder: 3 half tsp a day
    LEF Melatonin time release: 3 mg a night
    COQ10: 200 mg once a day
    LEF R-Lipoic Acid- 1 capsule twice a day
    LEF Super curcumin: 2 a day with food
    LEF Herbal Cardiovascular formula: 1 a day with food
    Fish Oil: 3 3x a day

    Testosterone cream: 30mg T/ 5 mg progest, once daily

    5HTP/Carbidopa: 2 a day.

    Protein powder- 200-250g a day
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    Here is my regimen given by doc:

    Perque Life Guard mulitvitamin: 2 tabs twice a day.
    LEF DHEA: 25 mg per day
    CLA: 1g twice a day
    LEF Pregnenolone: 100 mg a day
    LEF Ascorbyl palmitate: 2 a day
    Vitamin C buffered powder: 3 half tsp a day
    LEF Melatonin time release: 3 mg a night
    COQ10: 200 mg once a day
    LEF R-Lipoic Acid- 1 capsule twice a day
    LEF Super curcumin: 2 a day with food
    LEF Herbal Cardiovascular formula: 1 a day with food
    Fish Oil: 3 3x a day

    Testosterone cream: 30mg T/ 5 mg progest, once daily

    5HTP/Carbidopa: 2 a day.

    Protein powder- 200-250g a day
    SHBG: 26 (20-60)
    DHT: 90 (30-85)

    Just about half of your tests is off.
    Elements and vitamins direct testing is not really reliable.

    For myself,
    I divide problems into two sections:

    take care of T, E2 & DHT via blood tests.
    With your DHT being excellent, I would stay with T injections.
    Unless you have low LH and patience to try HCG first.
    If you want to stay fertile, HCG route is a must.

    The other bunch of problems I would attack by doing NutrEval test first.
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    But Jan, I am doing test cream, not injections!

    I need help to find a traditional endo in Va Beach who knows this stuff, so I can switch from the "anti aging" clinic I am currently at, which doesn't accept insurance.

    If anyone knows of a doc around Va Beach, I will greatly appreciate a referral.
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    But Jan, I am doing test cream, not injections!

    I need help to find a traditional endo in Va Beach who knows this stuff, so I can switch from the "anti aging" clinic I am currently at, which doesn't accept insurance.

    If anyone knows of a doc around Va Beach, I will greatly appreciate a referral.
    Well, first, I am not sure if you are taking enough of that cream.
    Test, see if your BAT~575

    Second, with cream you have an excellent chance to raise your DHT sky high (DHT, that presently in in the sweet spot) and ten listen to arguments why it is ok to have very high DHT.
    .
    .
    IIRC, I have previously given you this link with tonns of doctors to check.

    Anti-Aging Physicians, Clinics & Products - WorldHealth.net

    Plug in your zip
    Virginia Beach, VA:23450, 23451, 23452, 23453, 23454, 23455, 23456, 23457, 23458, 23459, 23460, 23461, 23462, 23463, 23464, 23465, 23466, 23467, 23468, 23471, 23479

    and see what is available.
    There is a lots of them in your area.
    Anti-Aging Physicians, Clinics & Products - WorldHealth.net
    ============================== ==


    Stay away from traditional endos.
    .
    .
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    Jan, I will look at that link again. I believe my doc is on the list. He is a nontraditional anti aging doc. I believed he would help me a lot, but it seems I am just pouring money into his pocket! lol

    edit: he is on that list (integrative longevity institute of virginia). I may go to another one on the list who is actually within walking distance of my home. I visited her website and she appears to be compounded cream only, she is at a clinic called rejuvinage.

    The problem with the people on that list, they are all expensive and do not take insurance.
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    You didn't mention your age (unless I missed it).

    Have you ever tested LH/FSH? Hopefully before TRT... this would tell if you're primary or secondary.
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    I am almost 47. LH and FSH were not tested, nor did this guy ask me to have them tested.

    My feelings are becoming that I would have been better off taking 6-OXO and Armour on my own, without a doc involved. I really believe it is my thyroid. Doing 5 hours of cardio a week, lifting free weights 5 days a week, and eating 2000-2200 calories a day, while maintaining a weight of 205-210 and a body fat % of 20% just doesn't make sense otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    Jan, I will look at that link again. I believe my doc is on the list. He is a nontraditional anti aging doc. I believed he would help me a lot, but it seems I am just pouring money into his pocket! lol

    edit: he is on that list (integrative longevity institute of virginia). I may go to another one on the list who is actually within walking distance of my home. I visited her website and she appears to be compounded cream only, she is at a clinic called rejuvinage.

    The problem with the people on that list, they are all expensive and do not take insurance.
    Just so you know,
    some doctors who make anti-aging their specialty tend to be very expensive and shy from insurance.
    They may be very good at what they do, but that is of no help, if you can't afford it.

    If you find osteopath doctor, who have a general practice,
    you may get same service with less fluff and anti-aging vocabulary. If you (gently) guide him, ask him for what you want, you may get satisfacion.
    Problem is, you have to take more active part in your treatmant.
    .
    .
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    you are obviously overtraining.
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    bah, no such thing as overtraining! lol

    I wonder what my coal mining grandpa would have to say about "overtraining"
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    Cut cardio back to 3x's a week on non lifting days. Do 6 sets
    of chest,shoulders,and back and 3 sets of bi's and tri's. Do legs once a week,about 9 sets. Give your body about a 5 day break before you start. You will feel like a different person in three weeks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
    Cut cardio back to 3x's a week on non lifting days. Do 6 sets
    of chest,shoulders,and back and 3 sets of bi's and tri's. Do legs once a week,about 9 sets. Give your body about a 5 day break before you start. You will feel like a different person in three weeks!
    So if I understand it right, you say to lift 3x and cardio 3x, on different days?

    Chest, shoulders and back one day
    Arms one day
    Legs one day?

    I understand the concept, but am wondering how come I am not wasting away if I am currently overtraining. I had a dexascan done, and my lean body mass is 167 lbs at 5'8". With overtraining and low test, would it not be logical to assume I should be losing weight and wasting away at 2000-2200 cal a day. The opposite is true, I am maintaining, and even gain if I up the calories just slightly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Just so you know,
    some doctors who make anti-aging their specialty tend to be very expensive and shy from insurance.
    They may be very good at what they do, but that is of no help, if you can't afford it.

    If you find osteopath doctor, who have a general practice,
    you may get same service with less fluff and anti-aging vocabulary. If you (gently) guide him, ask him for what you want, you may get satisfacion.
    Problem is, you have to take more active part in your treatmant.
    .
    .
    Can only find 2 here in Va Beach. One sounds like a fruitcake, he is into the free love movement.

    The other, I can find no website or anything to look at to see what he is like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    So if I understand it right, you say to lift 3x and cardio 3x, on different days?

    Chest, shoulders and back one day
    Arms one day
    Legs one day?

    I understand the concept, but am wondering how come I am not wasting away if I am currently overtraining. I had a dexascan done, and my lean body mass is 167 lbs at 5'8". With overtraining and low test, would it not be logical to assume I should be losing weight and wasting away at 2000-2200 cal a day. The opposite is true, I am maintaining, and even gain if I up the calories just slightly.
    Namtrag,
    What a coincidence.I am losing mass and you are maintaining mass.I live in Va Beach too. Can you send me an email.
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    Here is my reasoning for working out so hard:

    I am scared to take time off, last time I slacked off on the exercise and diet, I put on 20lbs in 30 days. My life is running on the fear of getting obese again. I am so close to being in great shape, I just can't quite get there. And I have never been lean in my life, at least since I was 9 or so years old! lol I want to be lean so bad, it is almost obsessing me. I want to succeed at it for once in my life, after being overweight for 35+ years.
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    Get PPO insurance like Unitedhealth they will cover out of network doctors and half perscription costs. If it is organization insurance through business.
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    Namtrag,

    Did you find any doc yet???
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    Not yet, I am afraid they would be no better. Sure wish I knew someone around here that had gone before us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    Not yet, I am afraid they would be no better. Sure wish I knew someone around here that had gone before us.
    Namtrag,

    You can atleast get blood tests for LH,FH,prolactin,thyroid and total testosterone with your insurance from regular endos so that you will know which one to use HCG or Test creams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    Namtrag,

    You can atleast get blood tests for LH,FH,prolactin,thyroid and total testosterone with your insurance from regular endos so that you will know which one to use HCG or Test creams.
    Won't my thyroid results be messed up from the current testosterone treatment?

    I may order those tests myself and just pay out of pocket.

    Do you recommend an endo in Va Beach?
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    Won't my thyroid results be messed up from the current testosterone treatment?

    I may order those tests myself and just pay out of pocket.

    Do you recommend an endo in Va Beach?

    I sent you email couple of days back. Did you get it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    I sent you email couple of days back. Did you get it?
    No, but I will look, maybe it got screened into my junk email!

    No, no emails from you, try again!
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    2 months isn't enough time for your body to adjust to the changes you've made, even if the meds you are taking are the appropriate protocol for you. When I 1st started on TRT with an anti-aging clinic I didn't feel better until 3+ months of treatment. I stopped TRT after about 6 months as I wasn't sure if I wanted to be on meds the rest of my life and wasn't terribly content with the amount I was paying for meds through the clinic or the quality of follow-up.

    I pretty quickly realized how crappy I felt when I stopped my TRT and after about 6-8 months of really feeling lousy, started again, which in itself has been rather frustrating experience itself. 2+ years and multiple Doctors later I'm finally on a path that's starting to work for me. I think you need to focus less on finding a Doctor in your backyard and find someone that can really help you instead. There must be some options in the DC/Baltimore area.
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    I finally got labs back from August 20th draw. If anyone remembers, I was on test/progesterone cream for several months, along with many supplements including pregnenolone and dhea. About 3 days prior to this draw, I ran out of testosterone cream, and have not had testosterone since I ran out. Approximately one week (edit: it was actually 2 weeks) before this blood test, I started on .25 grains of armour a day. I posted in this old thread because it has a lot of my bloodwork from earlier in the year, and also my regimen. I am supposed to go and discuss these tests on Wednesday with my doc, and wanted to get some feedback on what to ask him.

    Anyway here it is:

    Total testosterone: 254 (241-827)
    Free test: 12.5 (6.8-21.5)
    progesterone: .97 (.1-.84)
    DHEA-S: 306 (95-530)
    DHT was ordered, I will have to ask why it never came
    FSH:2.0 (1.4-18.1)
    LH: 2.8 (1.5-9.3)
    estradiol: 29 (0-53)
    SHBG: 15 (13-71)
    cortisol:11.8 (4-22)
    TSH: 2.899
    Free T4: 1.12 (.61-1.76)
    Free T3: 3.5 (2.3-4.2)
    ATA: <20 (0-40)
    TPO: <10 (0-20)

    Vitamin C: .7 (.4-2.0)
    Vitamin D-25 OH: 69.8 (32.0-100)

    CRP: .98 (0-3.0)
    Homocysteine: 7.0 (0-15)

    My observations:

    DHEA has dropped from 340 pre-supplementation, to 306 after 6 months of taking DHEA

    Testosterone has dropped from 296 pre-supplementation to 254 now.

    Cortisol was 15.8 before, now is 11.8

    SHBG is down some, but the scale is different. In april it was 26 on a scale of 20-60

    TSH is down from 3.129 to 2.899 (could be from taking armour for a few days before the test.

    Free t-3 is up to 3.5 from 2.9 in April

    Free t-4 is down to 1.12 from 1.31 in april.

    Anyway, I know it is a lot of info, but any feedback would be appreciated.

    I am perplexed how I can have low LH, FSH, normal estradiol, and still have low test. What is causing the low test? I guess my body just isn't making enough of the raw material. It's obviously not being aromatized ( or is it?)

    I am beginning to think I am pretty normal in all areas except total test. Probably would be ok just getting injected once or twice a week.
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    oopsy, I am reading that my low LH may be the culprit, as it stimulates testosterone production. What do you do to increase it, or do you just do testosterone replacement?
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    I picked this up off a google search

    "Low levels of gonadotropins (LH and FSH) with low testosterone, seen in hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, can be corrected with hormone replacement therapy and has a relatively good prognosis."

    This looks like what I have, at least I think so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    I picked this up off a google search

    "Low levels of gonadotropins (LH and FSH) with low testosterone, seen in hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, can be corrected with hormone replacement therapy and has a relatively good prognosis."

    This looks like what I have, at least I think so.
    Namtrag, if you look at my post on 07-08, I mentioed about testing LH FSH and prolactin because I guessed you may be secondary.
    If LH or FSH is low normal, that means testes are working fine but hypothalamus is not and you have secondary hypogonadism. Without testing these you already used test supplement for few months, You might have more LH and FSH level before using supplements.
    Now you may need to use Clomid or HCG to raise LH level. Experienced folks will come and help you....
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    Are you still maintaing same weight?
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    Gained a lot, but have not been eating right.

    17 lbs in 6 weeks
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    Namtrag, if you look at my post on 07-08, I mentioed about testing LH FSH and prolactin because I guessed you may be secondary.
    If LH or FSH is low normal, that means testes are working fine but hypothalamus is not and you have secondary hypogonadism. Without testing these you already used test supplement for few months, You might have more LH and FSH level before using supplements.
    Now you may need to use Clomid or HCG to raise LH level. Experienced folks will come and help you....
    It's so confusing, but are you saying that if my LH were higher, my body would make more T?

    Or do I just take testosterone?

    I am reading it as raising LH would be my primary goal, which would then raise my testosterone.
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    http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec17/ch227/ch227b.html

    Cool link, has a great flow chart
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    It's so confusing, but are you saying that if my LH were higher, my body would make more T?

    Or do I just take testosterone?

    I am reading it as raising LH would be my primary goal, which would then raise my testosterone.
    yes, If your LH increases (within range), Testosterone would increase automatically(supposed to).
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    The basic premise as was explained to me by the doc was that my body is really happy with total T being low. My LH and FSH are at low end of normal, meaning my endocrine system is not asking for more Testosterone, and is quite happy with it being 254. My SHBG is at low normal as well, which means, even though my testosterone is low, what is there is not bound up. We somehow need to get my body to think it needs more so it will produce more. She told me that she would like to get the free number up closer to 20, but that 12.9 is decent, and is part of the reason I am able to maintain so much muscle mass even though my total T is so low.

    Of course, it will be interesting to see what the numbers are after 6 weeks off of cream. I go 9/30 for the blood draw. I think this will work out better because we are starting from ground zero with new raw numbers.

    I will keep you guys updated.

    Still, low test is no excuse to be fat like I am! lol I need to eat less. I really am more interested in getting my sex drive back than anything else.

    What else was cool is that she said she could let me bring the testosterone in and just get charged for them to inject, or I could bring my wife in to learn how to do it, or I could learn to do it myself. I am glad she is not insisting that I come in and pay $65 for each shot of test and $35 to inject it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by namtrag View Post
    The basic premise as was explained to me by the doc was that my body is really happy with total T being low. My LH and FSH are at low end of normal, meaning my endocrine system is not asking for more Testosterone, and is quite happy with it being 254. My SHBG is at low normal as well, which means, even though my testosterone is low, what is there is not bound up. We somehow need to get my body to think it needs more so it will produce more. She told me that she would like to get the free number up closer to 20, but that 12.9 is decent, and is part of the reason I am able to maintain so much muscle mass even though my total T is so low.

    Of course, it will be interesting to see what the numbers are after 6 weeks off of cream. I go 9/30 for the blood draw. I think this will work out better because we are starting from ground zero with new raw numbers.

    I will keep you guys updated.

    Still, low test is no excuse to be fat like I am! lol I need to eat less. I really am more interested in getting my sex drive back than anything else.

    What else was cool is that she said she could let me bring the testosterone in and just get charged for them to inject, or I could bring my wife in to learn how to do it, or I could learn to do it myself. I am glad she is not insisting that I come in and pay $65 for each shot of test and $35 to inject it.
    If you take test shots, wonl it shut down LH and FSH levels. Did the doc say anything about this?
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    Yes, but what she said was, my LH is low while my testosterone is also low, meaning my body doesn't really want me to make more. Of course when you raise the T level with outside source, that also makes your LH go down.

    We are redrawing everything next week to get a lot more accurate readings since I have been off the cream for a pretty long time now.

    A real problem is when LH is high and your test is low.
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