HCG - how long for LH to recover when/if stopping?
- 06-12-2008, 02:48 PM
HCG - how long for LH to recover when/if stopping?
..if taken for several months at high doses?
I think I'm going to give it a go @ 3000iu/week for 3-6 months and see how it goes. Will take arimidex if needed.
Also, how long till people usually notice a difference on this protocol? My LH is around 5, producing test around 370. Might not even work for me, but I'm hoping I can raise it up to around 800-1000 (with 3000 - 4000 iu per week). If people don't think it's worth the attempt with that info, let me know so I don't waste my time. Going to get bloodwork once a month on this protocol. If I'm not feeling/noticing much, I'm going to include T-shots...hoping I will be able to tell within a month or less than two just by the way I feel.
Also going to be taking deprenyl for long-term prolactin control (via increasing dopamine). I am currently looking into prolactinomas that may be effecting my test (have microadenoma on pituitary - but have not have several prolactin tests done)...dr's are being a pain in the ass. I'm assuming if my test levels go higher than expected on the HCG, then the deprenyl's effect of contrlling prolactin has worked, and that is my answer. If none of this works, I'm abandoning the HCG monotherapy and paying for an A4M dr.
- 06-12-2008, 08:28 PM
Further nutritional investigation may be advisible.
Who is this DR.O,
started todat, 10 posts.
MESO-Rx - View Single Post - ok blood work is in please advise ?`
- 06-12-2008, 08:41 PM
06-13-2008, 09:04 AM
I take ZMK all the time (probably the most bioavailable complete mineral supplement out there) - have been the whole time I've been getting bloodwork the last year, and also supplement with p5p from time to time, and get lots of other b6 in other supplements I take.
Also started supplementing with selenium, biotin, vitamin D+A, but that's probably not related. Added PP's Toco-8 as a staple in recent months as well.
My test levels haven't budged one bit through changing diet and supplementation. For the last year my test levels have hovered in the 310-370 range. I was originally speaking with my PCP, he referred me to an endo here in NYC (she did the MRI), she was going to give me androgel, I said no I want HCG in with it, she sad no - go see a urologist if you want to be treated with that as well. So I got referred to a urologist who says that I do not have hypogonadism since my levels are not in the 200s or lower.
I went back to my PCP, told him the story, he referred me back to my endo, but now she's out of network. This is why I've decided to try the monotherapy on my own, easy enough. Dr's here are being a massive pain.
I'm starting a new job here in 3-4 weeks, waiting for my insurance to kick back in before looking for a new dr. Prescriptions are too expensive without coverage and I can easily get HCG on my own for a good price. I will pay for a D.O. when I start the new job though. Seems like you have to pay much out of pocket just for decent health care in the states (I'm from Canada). I'm not bothering with endo's or uro's anymore.
06-13-2008, 09:12 AM
I just took a look at that post. Looks kind of similar to mine but not really, I haven't been on that board in ages. Test and free test look similar, his blood count and values are off though, mine are fine.
His LH is damn high, the guy must be primary if his LH is 25 and his test is that low.
06-14-2008, 03:09 PM
In a few weeks the 2-3 month experiment will begin! Any tips, pointers would be great. I'm currently taking 25mg of DHEA and 50mg of pregnenalone daily (orally, in Reset AD). Also taking PP's Toco-8 for increased testicular LH sensitivity. Should I drop the pregnenalone and add in progesterone? Or are they close enough anyhow? I'm thinking of going up to 50mg dhea and 75 mgs of pregnenalone daily once I start.
I am also very very strict about my diet, making sure to eat very balanced meals and support digestion with 6caps of betaine HCL + now's super enzyme with each meal. Taking MST's ZMK (total krebs cycle mineral supplement) daily as well. Between 4-6 per day. ZMK (120 Tabs) By: Millennium Sport Technologies
Additional supps include:
100mcg Selenium daily (on top of my multi)
5mg Biotin daily
30000iu vitamin a (retinyl palmitate)
1200iu vitamin d (cholecalciferol)
Reset AD - 2/3 caps daily
Reset AD (60 capsules) By: Palo Alto Labs
Now's Thyroid Support Thyroid Energy (90 caps) By: NOW Foods
Vitamin Shoppe Active-C (1000+mg ed)
Active C 500 by Vitamin Shoppe - VitaminShoppe.com
Bulk omega 3,6,9 oil - 8 grams ed.
My thyroid is on the low end of normal, I may add in 1/2 grain to a grain of armour for this period as well before getting new bloodwork.
I will be taking ~4500iu HCG weekly. Starting 3x week, then moving to twice a week doses.
Other notables: will be stopping wellbutrin and then starting deprenyl @ 5mg/daily and then adding in stablon eventually (3x 12.5mg daily).
Any other tips which may help the process or improve the actions of hcg will be greatly appreciated.
06-15-2008, 04:47 PM
Just some advice from someone who is going through it, unless you have heard of a good local doctor don't waste time looking for one to trt. you. Go for an A4M, Dr. Crisler, or Dr. Shippen. If you can get PPO rather than HMO insurance it will cover some of out of network doctor fees and all of medication. I would recommend Unitedhelth or Anthem. Good Luck.
06-16-2008, 12:11 PM
I definately agree. I have PPO right now, it's running out this month while I am transfering to another company. I'm not sure what the plan is though so long as they cover most of the meds (I was told the new plan has absolutely no copays, so it must be pretty frekkin elite - the new company is hooking me up proper with a nice fat package). For this reason I don't want androgel...not worth the money and other risks associated with it. I'f I'm shooting HCG, I may as well shoot T-cyp as well, easy enough.
Once I switch to the new company, I should be taking a flight over to visit Dr John as well.
There's going to be a waiting period where I may not be covered for a bit, this is why I've gone ahead with the HCG stim test...well it should be starting soon, 2-3 weeks. Insurance will kick back in within a month and a half.
Last edited by Gutterpump; 06-16-2008 at 12:15 PM. Reason: details
06-16-2008, 12:49 PM
06-16-2008, 12:52 PM
Not sure, haven't checked as my Uro refused to prescribe it for TRT, and my Endo refused to prescribe it alongside the androgel.
I bought it on my own, it's not too pricey. Androgel on the other hand is insanely over-priced.
As far as I know, most things medically dealing with fertility are not covered. I tried to get a sperm analysis, but my Uro told me it would not be covered by insurance at all.. so I'm still looking into ways of getting that done. Possibly a private clinic who can do multiple collections, concentrate and store it.
06-17-2008, 09:55 PM
I would recommend your start with a much lesser dose, for starters, so you dont invite a major E2 issue. No more than 3500 IUs per week, max. I'd recommend something closer to 2000 IUs. Test in 3 weeks. You will know if you respond. That amount (3.5k IUs) sent me beyond range, so it may do the same for you.
I would recommend testing E2 before you begin treatment.
06-17-2008, 11:21 PM
Thanks, I will try that at first. I have aromasin on hand as well if needed, but might get some arimidex.
My uro did not diagnose me hypogonadal because my free test is decent (mid-low)...but that would be because my SHBG is at the very bottom of range. My total test is as low as yours was to start.
I'm getting updated bloodwork this week or early next, testing DHEAS, DHT (which I've never had tested), TT, FT, estradiol ultrasensitive, LH + FSH again as well as a full thyroid panel done. Going to ask for a 24-hr cortisol test as well. I pushed for one last time but he didn't seem too receptive, going to be a bit more pushy about it this time around. It doesn't cost him anything for me to do it..
The more I research, the more it seems I also have lagging adrenals coupled with a mild case of borderline hypothyroidism as well. Low normal all around, which leads me to believe it's all related to something metabolic, even though I eat well and supplement very well.
I've posted this before, but I'm almost sure all of this was due to being vegetarian (as well as hooked on caffeine pills + ephedrine) for many many years straight...things got a little out of hand then and my stress levels were super high for far too long...So I stopped being vegetarian because I wasn't feeling good, and then had started an SNRI when I started eating right again (to feel better and be more functional) but things never seemed to completely go back to normal, no matter how I eat now, and it's been at least 5 years since I stopped that diet.
On a mission now to get to upper range on everything that counts
My most recent bloodwork, just for reference:
Free T4 (non-dialysis) 0.9 (0.8-2.2) ng/dL
TSH 3rd generation 1.74 (0.5-4.0) mIU/L
LH 5.6 (1.2 - 11)
FSH 7.1 (1.6 - 9.7)
Total Testosterone: 372 (400-1080) LOW
SHBG: 12 (11-80)
Bioavailable Test: 280 (131-682)
Free Test: 105 (47-244)
DHEAS: 281 (120-520)
Prolactin: 11.3 (5.0-18)
Estradiol: 30 (<66)
06-18-2008, 01:08 AM
Your free T4 is pretty low. Free T3 is more impt, but still, it looks like you may have some impairment. Strange that your TSH is so low. You may have a pituitary issue with that low TSH. It should be kicked up if your free thyroids are low. I would think a trial of Synthroid would make sense. Free T3 is definitely advisable, which it sounds is in the works.
Candidly, I am skeptical about hCG being the complete answer. I suspect you may need Test. to bring you up to optimal levels.
Good luck and hang in there.
06-18-2008, 06:49 AM
Yeah I was originally thinking I am borderline primary as well, but my endo also found a pituitary micro adenoma...so then I got confused. Could be a number of factors going on here.
I am also feeling as though test + armour will be necessary, but I want that new bloodwork first. I'm also worried my adrenals are a little lagging for the armour to work properly. Hoping the dhea and pregnenalone (reset ad) + other supps I am taking will help the adrenals out.
06-18-2008, 07:41 AM
I suspect the frequency should be a function of E2.
The less fequent dosing the more chance at E2 spiking high.
With that thought, daily HCG shots would be ideal.
OTOH, less frequent shots are conducive to keeping HPTA actice, (per colkurtz_spf doc's opinion), hence 2x/week or E3D.
06-18-2008, 09:39 AM
06-20-2008, 11:12 AM
Looking back at this, and all the bloodwork I got in the last year, (and reading my uro's notes today about how I have some atrophy) I think I might definately be partially primary.
I just got fresh bloodwork done today, I really had to push for everything though LOL..it was a huge laundry list.
Asked my GP for a full testosterone panel, DHT, estradiol ultrasensitive, DHEAS, progesterone, prolactin, TSH, free t4, free t3, SHBG, LH, FSH, IGF-1...I had to tell him that another doctor was asking for all this, and he asked me what the purpose was to test all these extra things? I told him so that he could get the full picture as to what is going on....he told me "sounds more like mental masturbation to me" which was a bit frustrating to hear...but anyhow, he went through with it and I should get it back within a week. Probably won't see him again although he did agree to work with Dr. John... we'll see.
I think I am going to forego the HCG stim test and just add in test right away when the HCG comes in. Frontload with 200mg, and then do 100mg every week, split, while doing 500iu HCG 3-4x per week.
Also started taking deprenyl, 5mg ed and stablon 4x12.5mg a day. Dropping the wellbutrin. Stablon + deprenyl should be far superior, but likely unnecessary after a while on TRT.
06-20-2008, 04:28 PM
Personally, I think that's far too aggressive. Ideally, you'll have the assistance of a capable doctor. I think you need to figure out whether you will respond to hCG before plowing head first and possibly taking more hCG than you can make beneficial use of, which will only cause E2 problems.
Your contemplated protocol is a full TRT protocol, along with a full hCG monotherapy protocol.
06-21-2008, 09:58 AM
Yeah, that's why I'm posting up here and also taking bloodwork I want to be sure everything is going to be done right. I guess I don't have much faith in HCG for me either but I should give it another chance.
I've actually tried HCG in the past, around 380iu 3 times a week, and didn't really feel much from it. Was not enough to tell how it really effects me I guess. I know what high estrogen feels like, so I have an AI on hand to deal with that too if it arises, but bloodwork should guide me. This protocol should only be short-term as well.
06-21-2008, 07:03 PM
06-21-2008, 08:21 PM
I know I should do the stim test, it's just tempting to do something that will work and not waste the time, especially because I have tried a stim test (without bloodwork) but without feeling any better or feeling as thought my test was increasing at all. I tried hcg, about 750iu per week, with td dhea + preg, and didn't notice much of a difference in the way I felt.
I've also tried low dosed toremifene (20mg) for an extended period, but didn't notice a change except for slight libido increase, lots of acne, and no change in energy levels/motivation at all. From what I've read, I should have experience huge firehose loads and a large increase in libido at a low dose like that.
If I go with test, I'll keep the hcg to 750iu's a week. I might try a stim test if you think I could / would notice a difference within 3 weeks, otherwise I will go straight with test, and then within a month or two, get a proper A4M dr. Things are just too hectic with me in my life to keep going back and forth with dr's atm, and I can't afford to be anything but productive right now, which was why I'm wanting to start this asap. I'll post up my bloodwork in here next week, should have it by friday.
06-21-2008, 08:28 PM
Two weeks should do it. And believe me, I sympathize. Even tho it was suspected I may be secondary, once the MRI came back negative, I went straight for Test + hCG. When I converted to straight hCG, I felt no difference, and within two weeks, I felt better than I ever did on Test + hCG. The stim only takes two weeks. I think you can take like 2kIUs three times/week. If that doesn't get you jacked up in a few weeks, then I would go back to the Test + hCG. I dont know if you are already taking the AI, but that will increase your free T by a fair amount if your E2 is 50+.
06-22-2008, 10:43 AM
Thanks, I'll try that. Not on any AI atm. This new bloodwork will be interesting, haven't been on anything for a while except for 25mg dhea + 50mg of pregnenalone. Curious to see what my e2 + progesterone levels are at now. Some of the symptoms I have are definately signs of adrenal issues, so I've been trying to tackle those myself for a while now, especially since I know I may need armour in the future. I tried t3 a year ago and didn't notice much of anything from it, (tapered slowly up to 100mcg) so that's definately another sign of poor adrenals.
My whole microadenoma thing makes me wonder if that's effecting test levels as well even though my LH / FSH are fine. My TSH should definately be elevated considering what my t4 levels are at too, but the new bloodwork should help to shed light on all this a bit more. I think either my pituitary is really messed up or I really screwed myself up with the vegetarian diet + massive amount of stims and severe lack of sleep (poor lifestyle) I had for years...causing some long term metabolic + adrenal issues, possibly in combination with other primary issues. I've tried everything naturally to raise them though without having them budge (I even tried the reset protocol - shut myself down and did a restart - ended up at my previous baseline again though - mid to high 300's).
I should have got my cholesterol re-tested, I completely forgot. Last time we had it tested, it was at a super low 110 total regardless of my diet / supplementation. Someone mentioned I should get checked out for Celiac disease, but I don't feel like I have this. I guess it's possible to have it without symptoms of it though (no IBS, etc). Also should have gotten ferattin tested. I have no idea where my iron levels are at.
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