hCG Monotherapy Success Story -- Staggering Numbers
- 06-05-2008, 09:40 PM
hCG Monotherapy Success Story -- Staggering Numbers
Okay, this is for the naysayers. hCG monotherapy does work for those suffering from secondary hypogonadism . . .
At the time of labs, I was taking 1500 IUs of hCG E3D, along with .35 mgs Adex E3D. Labs were taken at 9:50 a.m. of the morning that I ordinarily take my hCG and Adex, before taking my meds.
TT 1485 (250 - 1100)
FT 241.5 (46 - 224)
Bio T 486.1 (110 - 575)
SHBG 38 (8-48)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6 - 5.1)
E2 90 (13-54)
Beginning today, I intend to reduce hCG to 1000 IUs E3D, and increase Adex to .75 mgs E3D, to reduce the TT and FT, and decrease the E2. I figure that should bring me within range in all respects, and get rid of my minor bloating and propensity for chick flicks. ; )
Regarding pre treatment levels, my TT was 355, FT 45, and E2 20. My hCG monotherapy results far exceed my results when on 100 mgs of T Cyp and 550 IUs of hCG per week, and I feel far better as well.
Hope this inspires other putative secondaries to explore hCG stim tests before proceeding with TRT.
Good luck and good health,
- 06-05-2008, 11:54 PM
- 06-06-2008, 06:44 AM
....very encouraging news as we both started around the same spot (blood work wise). Any recommendations for the transition from a T+hCG+AI protocol over to hCG (+AI) monotherapy? My current dosing schedule is as such:
40mg DepoTest EOD
250iu hCG EOD
4drops Arimidex ED (28 drops per mg/ml)
06-06-2008, 07:41 AM
06-06-2008, 08:43 AM
But watch your SHBG, hopefuly it will go down.
1500 IUs of hCG E3D -->=1500*7/3=3500iu/week
.35 mgs Adex E3D --> =0.35*7/3=0.827mg/week
Bio T 486.1 (110 - 575) --> =(486-110)/(575-110)=0.81 you still have 19% to go before reaching top range on BAT
If that was my case,
I would leave HCG dosing as is.
I would increase Arimidex.
Try 0.35 E2D --> 0.35*/2=1.225mg/week
that would be a 50% dose increase 3/2=1.5
I would think of backing off on HCG only after reaching
(1.75 - 2)mg/week of Arimidex
Consider changing HCG to
1000iu --> 1000*7/2=3500iu/week
may help in lowering E2.
06-06-2008, 08:58 AM
I am thinking of a time that it takes (shutdown) testis to resume Test production,
what was the condition of your testis before you started at the current regime?
You have been on T + HCG, right?
How much HCG, how long, what have you done before that?
06-06-2008, 09:28 AM
I am thinking that EOD schedule for HCG injections may be better. More uniform levels. I think spikes are promoting increase in E2.
You may want to watch situation, (test T & E2 every 4-6 weeks).
I would expect additional increase in Test production as time passes and your testis get better.
That may be a time to back out a little on HCG, just enough so you stay on top range of BAT.
Read the Quest Diagnostics library, Gonadotropin treatment for infertility.
They have 3x/week for 4-6 months
then change to
Gonadotropin treatment for infertility - [Medication] - Quest Diagnostics Patient Health Library
hCG is injected 3 times weekly until blood testosterone level is within the normal range (this may take 4 to 6 months). Treatment continues with injections of hCG twice a week and hMG or FSH 3 times a week until the sperm count rises to normal levels.
06-06-2008, 10:49 AM
I am confident that my adjustments will maintain, if not increase, my bioavailable T, Jan. And, in any event, I don't really care. I am not a number chaser. I go by how I feel. That said, I do not want my TT excessively high, because of concerns regarding blood pressure and cholestrol. My goal is to get the TT in range, and get the E2 between 20 and 30. If the bioavailable T goes down, no big deal to me as long as I feel well. My primary goal is getting the E2 down, as it is causing bloating as well as emotional lability.
Take care and special thanks to Colkurtz and Old Gator, for your lengthy discussion regarding hCG monotherapy, and Jan for being such a great source of general information.
06-06-2008, 11:24 AM
06-06-2008, 11:27 AM
06-06-2008, 12:52 PM
I have ment to coment then, but did not at the time.
If anything, body works on 24hr cycle rather than 7 days cycle.
To me E2D or E3D sounds more logical than 3x or 2x per week.
E3D is about same as 2x/week
E2D is about same as 3x/week
They are similar systems but not quite.
With E2D or E3D cycle, one is able to have HCG shots at the same time of the day.
With 3x per week (for example), 56hr cycle
With 2x per week, 84hr cycle
Unless there is another logical explanation.
06-06-2008, 01:18 PM
I prefer E3Ds because it is easier for me take in the morning, every three days, rather than at different times -- 3.5 days apart.
Thanks for everyone's interest. Hopefully I can get rid of the bloatation in short order. I figure 2 doses of Adex at .75 mgs may do it.
06-06-2008, 05:12 PM
06-06-2008, 05:40 PM
I'm happy you got such a GREAT response.
Looking back on my try at monotherapy with Shippen, when I was basically doing your current dose I only got to about 700 TT.
But we never did ADEX with it.
Now I am wondering if that would have made the difference and if I should ask doc to try it (we went right to T-Cream and HCG)?
My only hesitation is I like/need the boost in DHT I get from Cream.
Maybe HCG monotherapy, ADEX, and a "little" cream?? (My E is anchored at 20-22 - never moves).
What do you think Jinxie / JanSz / ColKurz?
06-06-2008, 05:52 PM
My doc says to split the dose any way I feel comfortable, just don't go over total 1200-1400 per week for maintenance (while on the T Cream).
06-06-2008, 05:59 PM
Ok, you are injecting HCG same time of the day, evening.
So two days break (Sunday, Monday) is important for HPTA sake.
There is another new information, (HCG shot at night).
Saturday, Sunday, Monday
Asuming that I would like to switch to the above HCG schedule,
how would you see timing for testosterone.
Would Wed, Fri, and Sun or Mon be acceptable, what time, morning or evening?
Does this pattern create any predictable patern for sexual desire (better sex on Sunday??)?
06-06-2008, 06:24 PM
Jinxie takes, 1500 IUs of hCG E3D, =3500iu/week
Ok you have got TT~700, how much HCG were you using per week?
Possibly you should have had larger dose.
Increase HCG until E2 goes up.
If you can, use max HCG dose that does not require Arimidex.
Apparently that is more than 3500iu/week.
You may try up to 6000iu/week long term.
What was the condition of your testis?
It takes up to 6 months to get max production.
Thinking of your DHT and your sex partner.
If you have insurance, use small amount of Androgel on genital area, after you are done with a sex for a while.
I had a better experience with Androgel (1%) than with 10% Tcream. Got more TT and sky high DHT using same dose of Androgel.
06-06-2008, 07:09 PM
At 700 TT I was 1200iu's EOD. Never really pushed the E up past 25, I just think my doc doesn't like to go beyond 1200-1500 EOD. They all have a different opinion of max dose. With my high SHBG I just had too much ground to cover (I guess). Funny, the T-Cream so far hasn't pushed me past 700 either although I feel better because of DHT boost that you can't get on HCG alone.
06-06-2008, 07:23 PM
That is relatively high dose already, but still short of the 6000iu.
Actually colkurtz_spf was using 10000iu, but after a while hi was real high with his TT (and E2 !!!)
With you SHBG so very up high, I suggest that you revist the idea about
test at Genova Diagnostics.
Even if you go to 6000iu/week, I do not see you being able to get enough test to satisfy your SHBG at present time.
Work on the rest of your body first.
Keep the cream or possbly Androgel for purpose of raising DHT, use T injections to get your TT up high.
06-06-2008, 07:51 PM
Also I am doing NutrEval Genova next week (from HAN).
So I think I'm on right track.
Lots of work - even with good doc!!
God Bless you Jinxie and Colkurtz doin it with just HCG.
I envy you!!
06-06-2008, 07:58 PM
06-06-2008, 09:01 PM
If you have a pleasure doing it any way, go ahead.
#1, colkurtz_spf just said that having two days in the row HCG free is beneficial for HPTA, according to his doc
#2, total weekly dose counts for physical shape of testis and scrotum.
When I was doing 250iu E2D, my testis were ok, scrotum very relaxed.
Now, on 500iu E2D testis have increased is size and firmness, scrotum is alive, sometime thighter, sometimes more relaxed, as in my younger days.
I am waiting for colkurtz_spf opinion on my proposed (T + HCG) schedule on post #16, this thread, I may change to that.
Observation, not sure how important.
with that schedule on post #16 (as written), the best day to draw blood would be on Monday morning.
06-07-2008, 04:35 AM
Since you are using cream daily, and the hCG is an adjunct (not primary), I think the daily is fine. At that dose, the compounding half-lives is not going to be a big deal. That said, I don't know that it would be preferable to EOD, which would be less onerous.
Good luck Gator.
06-07-2008, 06:55 AM
I'm a little concerned my DHT may get too high with the added dose a T-Cream. I'm getting all that tested along with JanSz's Genova tests for the first time.
HAN's helping me with some nutritional issues. First test had me low on zinc which I supplement all the time. HAN thinks it could be adrenals.
I appreciate everyone's input.
06-07-2008, 07:46 AM
And do not waste to much time, go for BAT~575 or real close to it.
(Decisions, decisions, either that of HCG experimenting, must make up your mind).
Good move doing NutrEval.
Ask for results in PDF file.
Post it, so we can discuss it.
You will have results and advice from Genova.
Keep close eye on Genova advice, it is wery good advice, try to not weer off too much from it.
But HAN is good in fleshing out more details out of it, so his help is very valuable.
Within NutrEval there is a test checking element status/levels.
Elemental Analysis, Packed Erythrocytes (RBC's)
That gives you recent overview.
As I am doing my NutrEval this coming Monday, I decided to add Hair Analysis.
That is similar analysis to (Packed Erythrocytes (RBC's))
but gives longer history.
Hair have to be from back of the head, washed for the last 2-3 weeks in baby Johnson shampoo, natural hair, unbleached, non-colored.
06-07-2008, 08:06 AM
As far as wasting time, going on 8 months now and still nowhere near BAT 575.
I respect my doc's thorough approach and I don't regret the try at HCG mono (I could've lucked out like Jinxie or Colkurtz). But I am getting a little anxious.
Even still, I feel better than when I started - and much more educated thanks to this forum.
06-07-2008, 06:49 PM
06-08-2008, 09:05 AM
Right now I'm injecting Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday every week. I don't know my numbers yet, but it feels good. My doc says that HCG levels maintain for three days. I read (at Pubmed I think) that it does, but its peaks is within 36 hours.
If this doesn't work I will inject every 3 days. I used to inject 3 and then 4. Supposedly that was good for my HPTA (my numbers were good), but I definitely felt the 4th day; it wasn't terrible - just not as good.
06-08-2008, 12:57 PM
06-08-2008, 02:57 PM
I do not want to rock the boat with my doc.
I ask him what I need, he gives it to me, cursory review on his part, then I am gone. Do not want to take his time.
I am rather cynical about (most of doctor's) real knowledge.
My doc have about 10 placks and diplomas from anti-aging courses he often attends, so probably hi knows something, I just do not want to test his knowledge.
What I am learning from colkurtz_spf I can't get anywhere else, so please keep it comming.
I am on E2D schedule, one day T shot the next day HCG shot, repeat.
178.5mg/week depo testosterone
25.5 units T-shot
500iu HCG shot
no Arimidex since Mar30/08
Hopefully tommorow I will have my current T, E2, DHT values.
I have a general intrest in HCG only therapy.
At the moment mostly to understand how it works, also to have it in writting for benefit of others.
Look to me as overlooked treasure. When testis are up to the taks, this theraphy should work much better than Test only with small amount of HCG.
I may consider HCG only trial run for myself, but I have to orderly complete my other ongoing health projects.
""""like us; he takes around 200 mgs of T per week, in addition to the ~1750 IUs of hCG. """""
I am puzzled, I thought that Colkurtz did not touched testosterone in at least two years, not sure about you, Jinxie, when was the last time you had external T dose?
06-08-2008, 03:21 PM
Jan, you need to look at my grammar more carefully: I was saying that you are not on hCG only, unlike Colkurtz and I.
As for Colkurtz sharing information, I am all for it. Thanks to him and Old Gator, I found the key to success. My point was that any recommendations are coming from the hCG monotherapy/fully-functioning testicles (whether or not secondary) perspective. I tried to provide you with some useful information so that you can evaluate what may work best for you, given your unique circumstances. In my opinion, that results in hCG no more than E3Ds. As I mentioned before, I think coming off T would be extremely misguided. Your T levels will plummet (as you have relied on exogenous T for so long, and your testicles may no longer produce), the hCG will not bring you anywhere close to where you are now, and you'll end up feeling awful for months, even if it ultimately brings your levels up. I am not aware of anyone your age who has successfully responded to hCG monotherapy, and most far younger (such as Old Gator) have not enjoyed the successes of Colkurtz (~50 yrs. old) or me (37 yrs. old). I believe Colkurtz response is exceptional, and I don't think others can expect reasonably to respond as did he. I think Old Gator got up to TT 700 or so.
As for my last external dose of T, it was about 2 months ago. I was only on it for about 6-8 weeks. I didn't suffer any ill consequence from stopping, at which time I bumped up my hCG.
I promise I wont ask this again, but why would you even consider switching over to hCG monotherapy, given the risks, given that you seem to feel well, and your numbers are stellar?
In any event, good luck, Jan.
06-08-2008, 03:54 PM
I must have been talking with girls while my teacher was trying to teach me grammar.
Good luck to all of us.
Sorry, I have to reply to this part, possibly for a benefit to younger guys who are already on TRT (T + small amount of HCG) and may plan to switch to this HCG alone system.
"Your T levels will plummet (as you have relied on exogenous T for so long, and your testicles may no longer produce), the hCG will not bring you anywhere close to where you are now, and you'll end up feeling awful for months, even if it ultimately brings your levels up."
To prevent crashing as you described;
I would keep on raising HCG dose until either
I can't control E2 with 2mg/week Arimidex
I have reached 6000iu/week HCG dose
I would not think of reducing my Testsoterone dose until I would have evidence that my BAT is risen over the top of range, that is over 575.
If I did reach BAT>575, I would reduce testosterone dose gradually.
06-08-2008, 04:08 PM
Incidentally, the above approach has little chance of succeeding. Why? Because if you are on that level of T, which you've been on for some time, you've effectively shut down your testicles from producing T (even assuming they can produce on there own, with or without hCG). Perhaps you can work with HAN on this. I'm sure he has lots of ideas. In any event, again, good luck.
06-08-2008, 05:10 PM
06-08-2008, 06:31 PM
I'm leaving on a trip for a month. When I return I plan to draw blood. I think I'm going to change my protocol to every third day starting this Tuesday. I've never had a problem waiting three days to inject; it was the fourth that bothered me. I'm glad we have this forum.
06-08-2008, 06:34 PM
06-08-2008, 07:15 PM
06-08-2008, 08:47 PM
I really appreciate this forum as well, and your posts in particular.
06-08-2008, 08:49 PM
06-08-2008, 09:08 PM
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I, for one will benefit from your experience.
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