hCG Monotherapy Success Story -- Staggering Numbers

[jinxie]

Okay, this is for the naysayers. hCG monotherapy does work for those suffering from secondary hypogonadism . . .

At the time of labs, I was taking 1500 IUs of hCG E3D, along with .35 mgs Adex E3D. Labs were taken at 9:50 a.m. of the morning that I ordinarily take my hCG and Adex, before taking my meds.

TT 1485 (250 - 1100)
FT 241.5 (46 - 224)
Bio T 486.1 (110 - 575)
SHBG 38 (8-48)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6 - 5.1)
E2 90 (13-54)

Beginning today, I intend to reduce hCG to 1000 IUs E3D, and increase Adex to .75 mgs E3D, to reduce the TT and FT, and decrease the E2. I figure that should bring me within range in all respects, and get rid of my minor bloating and propensity for chick flicks. ; )

Regarding pre treatment levels, my TT was 355, FT 45, and E2 20. My hCG monotherapy results far exceed my results when on 100 mgs of T Cyp and 550 IUs of hCG per week, and I feel far better as well.

Hope this inspires other putative secondaries to explore hCG stim tests before proceeding with TRT.

Good luck and good health,
J

 

[SOLARUS]

thanks for sharing!

(not sarcastic!)

 

[hebsie]

....very encouraging news as we both started around the same spot (blood work wise). Any recommendations for the transition from a T+hCG+AI protocol over to hCG (+AI) monotherapy? My current dosing schedule is as such:

40mg DepoTest EOD
250iu hCG EOD
4drops Arimidex ED (28 drops per mg/ml)

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Okay, this is for the naysayers. hCG monotherapy does work for those suffering from secondary hypogonadism . . .

At the time of labs, I was taking 1500 IUs of hCG E3D, along with .35 mgs Adex E3D. Labs were taken at 9:50 a.m. of the morning that I ordinarily take my hCG and Adex, before taking my meds.

TT 1485 (250 - 1100)
FT 241.5 (46 - 224)
Bio T 486.1 (110 - 575)
SHBG 38 (8-48)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6 - 5.1)
E2 90 (13-54)

Beginning today, I intend to reduce hCG to 1000 IUs E3D, and increase Adex to .75 mgs E3D, to reduce the TT and FT, and decrease the E2. I figure that should bring me within range in all respects, and get rid of my minor bloating and propensity for chick flicks. ; )

Regarding pre treatment levels, my TT was 355, FT 45, and E2 20. My hCG monotherapy results far exceed my results when on 100 mgs of T Cyp and 550 IUs of hCG per week, and I feel far better as well.

Hope this inspires other putative secondaries to explore hCG stim tests before proceeding with TRT.

Good luck and good health,
J

Outstanding! I think you're right in reducing your dose. Arimidex will drive your T numbers even higher. Did you test for DHT?

 

[JanSz]

Okay, this is for the naysayers. hCG monotherapy does work for those suffering from secondary hypogonadism . . .

At the time of labs, I was taking 1500 IUs of hCG E3D, along with .35 mgs Adex E3D. Labs were taken at 9:50 a.m. of the morning that I ordinarily take my hCG and Adex, before taking my meds.

TT 1485 (250 - 1100)
FT 241.5 (46 - 224)
Bio T 486.1 (110 - 575)
SHBG 38 (8-48)
Albumin 4.4 (3.6 - 5.1)
E2 90 (13-54)

Beginning today, I intend to reduce hCG to 1000 IUs E3D, and increase Adex to .75 mgs E3D, to reduce the TT and FT, and decrease the E2. I figure that should bring me within range in all respects, and get rid of my minor bloating and propensity for chick flicks. ; )

Regarding pre treatment levels, my TT was 355, FT 45, and E2 20. My hCG monotherapy results far exceed my results when on 100 mgs of T Cyp and 550 IUs of hCG per week, and I feel far better as well.

Hope this inspires other putative secondaries to explore hCG stim tests before proceeding with TRT.

Good luck and good health,
J

Do not get confused with your high TT levels. You have a high SHBG, you need higher TT levels.
But watch your SHBG, hopefuly it will go down.

1500 IUs of hCG E3D -->=1500*7/3=3500iu/week
.35 mgs Adex E3D --> =0.35*7/3=0.827mg/week
Bio T 486.1 (110 - 575) --> =(486-110)/(575-110)=0.81 you still have 19% to go before reaching top range on BAT

Congratulations.

If that was my case,
I would leave HCG dosing as is.
I would increase Arimidex.
Try 0.35 E2D --> 0.35*/2=1.225mg/week
that would be a 50% dose increase 3/2=1.5

I would think of backing off on HCG only after reaching
(1.75 - 2)mg/week of Arimidex

Consider changing HCG to
1000iu --> 1000*7/2=3500iu/week

may help in lowering E2.

 

[JanSz]

I am thinking of a time that it takes (shutdown) testis to resume Test production,
what was the condition of your testis before you started at the current regime?
You have been on T + HCG, right?
How much HCG, how long, what have you done before that?

 

[JanSz]

I am thinking that EOD schedule for HCG injections may be better. More uniform levels. I think spikes are promoting increase in E2.

You may want to watch situation, (test T & E2 every 4-6 weeks).
I would expect additional increase in Test production as time passes and your testis get better.
That may be a time to back out a little on HCG, just enough so you stay on top range of BAT.
---------------------------------------
Read the Quest Diagnostics library, Gonadotropin treatment for infertility.
They have 3x/week for 4-6 months
then change to
2x/week




Gonadotropin treatment for infertility - [Medication] - Quest Diagnostics Patient Health Library



hCG is injected 3 times weekly until blood testosterone level is within the normal range (this may take 4 to 6 months). Treatment continues with injections of hCG twice a week and hMG or FSH 3 times a week until the sperm count rises to normal levels.

 

[jinxie]

Outstanding! I think you're right in reducing your dose. Arimidex will drive your T numbers even higher. Did you test for DHT?

Thanks Colkurtz (as well Jan, for his remarks). I didn't test DHT this go-around. When I was on T Cyp and hCG, it was slightly above range. Then I dropped the T Cyp down, added Adex, and ultimately stopped T Cyp and increased hCG.

I am confident that my adjustments will maintain, if not increase, my bioavailable T, Jan. And, in any event, I don't really care. I am not a number chaser. I go by how I feel. That said, I do not want my TT excessively high, because of concerns regarding blood pressure and cholestrol. My goal is to get the TT in range, and get the E2 between 20 and 30. If the bioavailable T goes down, no big deal to me as long as I feel well. My primary goal is getting the E2 down, as it is causing bloating as well as emotional lability.

Take care and special thanks to Colkurtz and Old Gator, for your lengthy discussion regarding hCG monotherapy, and Jan for being such a great source of general information.

J

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I am thinking that EOD schedule for HCG injections may be better. More uniform levels. I think spikes are promoting increase in E2.

You may want to watch situation, (test T & E2 every 4-6 weeks).
I would expect additional increase in Test production as time passes and your testis get better.
That may be a time to back out a little on HCG, just enough so you stay on top range of BAT.
---------------------------------------
Read the Quest Diagnostics library, Gonadotropin treatment for infertility.
They have 3x/week for 4-6 months
then change to
2x/week




Gonadotropin treatment for infertility - [Medication] - Quest Diagnostics Patient Health Library



hCG is injected 3 times weekly until blood testosterone level is within the normal range (this may take 4 to 6 months). Treatment continues with injections of hCG twice a week and hMG or FSH 3 times a week until the sperm count rises to normal levels.

My doctor does not recommend HCG EOD. He say that the good effects diminish and negative sides result. In his opinion in should be pulsed 2 to 3 times per week - twice being optimal. I only mention this because he has had a decade of experience in HCG therapy.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Thanks Colkurtz (as well Jan, for his remarks). I didn't test DHT this go-around. When I was on T Cyp and hCG, it was slightly above range. Then I dropped the T Cyp down, added Adex, and ultimately stopped T Cyp and increased hCG.

I am confident that my adjustments will maintain, if not increase, my bioavailable T, Jan. And, in any event, I don't really care. I am not a number chaser. I go by how I feel. That said, I do not want my TT excessively high, because of concerns regarding blood pressure and cholestrol. My goal is to get the TT in range, and get the E2 between 20 and 30. If the bioavailable T goes down, no big deal to me as long as I feel well. My primary goal is getting the E2 down, as it is causing bloating as well as emotional lability.

Take care and special thanks to Colkurtz and Old Gator, for your lengthy discussion regarding hCG monotherapy, and Jan for being such a great source of general information.

J

The only thing that counts is how you feel. Congrats again and good luck. Please keep us posted. Your results could benefit others.

 

[JanSz]

My doctor does not recommend HCG EOD. He say that the good effects diminish and negative sides result. In his opinion in should be pulsed 2 to 3 times per week - twice being optimal. I only mention this because he has had a decade of experience in HCG therapy.

You have mentioned this frequency before,
I have ment to coment then, but did not at the time.

Loudly thinking;
If anything, body works on 24hr cycle rather than 7 days cycle.

To me E2D or E3D sounds more logical than 3x or 2x per week.
E3D is about same as 2x/week
E2D is about same as 3x/week
They are similar systems but not quite.


With E2D or E3D cycle, one is able to have HCG shots at the same time of the day.

With 3x per week (for example), 56hr cycle

day1 7AM
day2 3PM
day3 11PM

With 2x per week, 84hr cycle

day1 7AM
day2 7PM

Unless there is another logical explanation.

 

[jinxie]

You have mentioned this frequency before,
I have ment to coment then, but did not at the time.

Loudly thinking;
If anything, body works on 24hr cycle rather than 7 days cycle.

To me E2D or E3D sounds more logical than 3x or 2x per week.
E3D is about same as 2x/week
E2D is about same as 3x/week
They are similar systems but not quite.


With E2D or E3D cycle, one is able to have HCG shots at the same time of the day.

With 3x per week (for example), 56hr cycle

day1 7AM
day2 3PM
day3 11PM

With 2x per week, 84hr cycle

day1 7AM
day2 7PM

Unless there is another logical explanation.

I also read somewhere that it is preferable to take hCG approx. 2 times per week, based on hCG 1/2 life, and, in turn, spikes that could increase E2.

I prefer E3Ds because it is easier for me take in the morning, every three days, rather than at different times -- 3.5 days apart.

Thanks for everyone's interest. Hopefully I can get rid of the bloatation in short order. I figure 2 doses of Adex at .75 mgs may do it.

Best,
J

 

[colkurtz_spf]

You have mentioned this frequency before,
I have ment to coment then, but did not at the time.

Loudly thinking;
If anything, body works on 24hr cycle rather than 7 days cycle.

To me E2D or E3D sounds more logical than 3x or 2x per week.
E3D is about same as 2x/week
E2D is about same as 3x/week
They are similar systems but not quite.


With E2D or E3D cycle, one is able to have HCG shots at the same time of the day.

With 3x per week (for example), 56hr cycle

day1 7AM
day2 3PM
day3 11PM

With 2x per week, 84hr cycle

day1 7AM
day2 7PM

Unless there is another logical explanation.

When I first started I was told to inject at night twice per week. One injection would be 4 days apart. It gives your HPTA a chance to work somewhat at least once per week. I now inject 3 times per week (Tuesday,Thursday and Saturday) because I like way it feels. My doc is OK with that, but against EOD without a break. Supposedly HCG stays strong for 3 days.

 

[OldGator]

Great News!

Take care and special thanks to Colkurtz and Old Gator, for your lengthy discussion regarding hCG monotherapy, and Jan for being such a great source of general information.
J

You are welcome.
I'm happy you got such a GREAT response.
Looking back on my try at monotherapy with Shippen, when I was basically doing your current dose I only got to about 700 TT.
But we never did ADEX with it.
Now I am wondering if that would have made the difference and if I should ask doc to try it (we went right to T-Cream and HCG)?
My only hesitation is I like/need the boost in DHT I get from Cream.
So...
Maybe HCG monotherapy, ADEX, and a "little" cream?? (My E is anchored at 20-22 - never moves).
What do you think Jinxie / JanSz / ColKurz?

 

[OldGator]

I now inject 3 times per week (Tuesday,Thursday and Saturday) because I like way it feels. My doc is OK with that, but against EOD without a break.

Dr. John said it was fine to go ED with small maintenance doses (100-200iu's) if you are on T Cream which is what I do (200iu's a day / 1400 a week). Did I misunderstand? I used to do EOD but I like the feeling of ED better. Am I nuts?? Is this harmful?? Should I go back to 3 days a week?

My doc says to split the dose any way I feel comfortable, just don't go over total 1200-1400 per week for maintenance (while on the T Cream).

 

[JanSz]

When I first started I was told to inject at night twice per week. One injection would be 4 days apart. It gives your HPTA a chance to work somewhat at least once per week. I now inject 3 times per week (Tuesday,Thursday and Saturday) because I like way it feels. My doc is OK with that, but against EOD without a break. Supposedly HCG stays strong for 3 days.

Thank you.
Details, details.
Ok, you are injecting HCG same time of the day, evening.
So two days break (Sunday, Monday) is important for HPTA sake.

There is another new information, (HCG shot at night).

Tuesday, Wednesday
Thursday, Friday
Saturday, Sunday, Monday
------------------------------------------------------

Asuming that I would like to switch to the above HCG schedule,
how would you see timing for testosterone.

Would Wed, Fri, and Sun or Mon be acceptable, what time, morning or evening?
.
..
Does this pattern create any predictable patern for sexual desire (better sex on Sunday??)?

 

[JanSz]

You are welcome.
I'm happy you got such a GREAT response.
Looking back on my try at monotherapy with Shippen, when I was basically doing your current dose I only got to about 700 TT.
But we never did ADEX with it.
Now I am wondering if that would have made the difference and if I should ask doc to try it (we went right to T-Cream and HCG)?
My only hesitation is I like/need the boost in DHT I get from Cream.
So...
Maybe HCG monotherapy, ADEX, and a "little" cream?? (My E is anchored at 20-22 - never moves).
What do you think Jinxie / JanSz / ColKurz?

Jinxie takes, 1500 IUs of hCG E3D, =3500iu/week


Ok you have got TT~700, how much HCG were you using per week?
Possibly you should have had larger dose.
Increase HCG until E2 goes up.
If you can, use max HCG dose that does not require Arimidex.
Apparently that is more than 3500iu/week.
You may try up to 6000iu/week long term.

What was the condition of your testis?
It takes up to 6 months to get max production.
.
.
Thinking of your DHT and your sex partner.
Androgel=expensive.
If you have insurance, use small amount of Androgel on genital area, after you are done with a sex for a while.
I had a better experience with Androgel (1%) than with 10% Tcream. Got more TT and sky high DHT using same dose of Androgel.
.

 

[OldGator]

Jinxie takes, 1500 IUs of hCG E3D, =3500iu/week


Ok you have got TT~700, how much HCG were you using per week?
Possibly you should have had larger dose.
Increase HCG until E2 goes up.
If you can, use max HCG dose that does not require Arimidex.
Apparently that is more than 3500iu/week.
You may try up to 6000iu/week long term.

What was the condition of your testis?
It takes up to 6 months to get max production.
.
.
Thinking of your DHT and your sex partner.
Androgel=expensive.
If you have insurance, use small amount of Androgel on genital area, after you are done with a sex for a while.
I had a better experience with Androgel (1%) than with 10% Tcream. Got more TT and sky high DHT using same dose of Androgel.
.

Thanks. I'll talk to doc about this. Maybe give it another go.
At 700 TT I was 1200iu's EOD. Never really pushed the E up past 25, I just think my doc doesn't like to go beyond 1200-1500 EOD. They all have a different opinion of max dose. With my high SHBG I just had too much ground to cover (I guess). Funny, the T-Cream so far hasn't pushed me past 700 either although I feel better because of DHT boost that you can't get on HCG alone.

 

[JanSz]

Thanks. I'll talk to doc about this. Maybe give it another go.
At 700 TT I was 1200iu's EOD. Never really pushed the E up past 25, I just think my doc doesn't like to go beyond 1200-1500 EOD. They all have a different opinion of max dose. With my high SHBG I just had too much ground to cover (I guess). Funny, the T-Cream so far hasn't pushed me past 700 either although I feel better because of DHT boost that you can't get on HCG alone.

1200iu EOD= 1200*7/2=4200iu
That is relatively high dose already, but still short of the 6000iu.
Actually colkurtz_spf was using 10000iu, but after a while hi was real high with his TT (and E2 !!!)

With you SHBG so very up high, I suggest that you revist the idea about
NutrEval
test at Genova Diagnostics.
.
Even if you go to 6000iu/week, I do not see you being able to get enough test to satisfy your SHBG at present time.

Work on the rest of your body first.
.
Keep the cream or possbly Androgel for purpose of raising DHT, use T injections to get your TT up high.

 

[OldGator]

Work on the rest of your body first.
.
Keep the cream or possbly Androgel for purpose of raising DHT, use T injections to get your TT up high.

That is best plan for me IMO. I have BW coming back next week (since I raised T-Cream) and that should clear up the issue.

Also I am doing NutrEval Genova next week (from HAN).
So I think I'm on right track.
Lots of work - even with good doc!!

God Bless you Jinxie and Colkurtz doin it with just HCG.
I envy you!!

 

[OldGator]

Daily HCG

Dr. John said it was fine to go ED with small maintenance doses (100-200iu's) if you are on T Cream which is what I do (200iu's a day / 1400 a week). Did I misunderstand? I used to do EOD but I like the feeling of ED better.

Anybody?

HAN also said ED is fine with small balls maintenance dose.
Anyone think ED is a bad idea if you are only dividing up a modest weekly total like 1200-1400ius (= 200iu ED).

 

[JanSz]

Anybody?

HAN also said ED is fine with small balls maintenance dose.
Anyone think ED is a bad idea if you are only dividing up a modest weekly total like 1200-1400ius (= 200iu ED).

I would say that daily injections of HCG are unnecesary.
If you have a pleasure doing it any way, go ahead.

Two caveats.

#1, colkurtz_spf just said that having two days in the row HCG free is beneficial for HPTA, according to his doc

#2, total weekly dose counts for physical shape of testis and scrotum.
When I was doing 250iu E2D, my testis were ok, scrotum very relaxed.
Now, on 500iu E2D testis have increased is size and firmness, scrotum is alive, sometime thighter, sometimes more relaxed, as in my younger days.

I am waiting for colkurtz_spf opinion on my proposed (T + HCG) schedule on post #16, this thread, I may change to that.
.
.
Observation, not sure how important.
with that schedule on post #16 (as written), the best day to draw blood would be on Monday morning.
.
.

 

[jinxie]

Anybody?

HAN also said ED is fine with small balls maintenance dose.
Anyone think ED is a bad idea if you are only dividing up a modest weekly total like 1200-1400ius (= 200iu ED).

Since you are using cream daily, and the hCG is an adjunct (not primary), I think the daily is fine. At that dose, the compounding half-lives is not going to be a big deal. That said, I don't know that it would be preferable to EOD, which would be less onerous.

Good luck Gator.

 

[OldGator]

Since you are using cream daily, and the hCG is an adjunct (not primary), I think the daily is fine. At that dose, the compounding half-lives is not going to be a big deal. That said, I don't know that it would be preferable to EOD, which would be less onerous.

Good luck Gator.

Thanks. I get blood work next week and I'll post on seperate thread to get you guys feedback.

I'm a little concerned my DHT may get too high with the added dose a T-Cream. I'm getting all that tested along with JanSz's Genova tests for the first time.
HAN's helping me with some nutritional issues. First test had me low on zinc which I supplement all the time. HAN thinks it could be adrenals.

I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[JanSz]

Thanks. I get blood work next week and I'll post on seperate thread to get you guys feedback.

I'm a little concerned my DHT may get too high with the added dose a T-Cream. I'm getting all that tested along with JanSz's Genova tests for the first time.
HAN's helping me with some nutritional issues. First test had me low on zinc which I supplement all the time. HAN thinks it could be adrenals.

I appreciate everyone's input.

T-cream is for getting your DHT where you want, for the balance of your T needs use T-shots.
And do not waste to much time, go for BAT~575 or real close to it.

(Decisions, decisions, either that of HCG experimenting, must make up your mind).


Good move doing NutrEval.
Ask for results in PDF file.
Post it, so we can discuss it.


You will have results and advice from Genova.
Keep close eye on Genova advice, it is wery good advice, try to not weer off too much from it.
But HAN is good in fleshing out more details out of it, so his help is very valuable.

Within NutrEval there is a test checking element status/levels.
Elemental Analysis, Packed Erythrocytes (RBC's)
That gives you recent overview.

As I am doing my NutrEval this coming Monday, I decided to add Hair Analysis.
That is similar analysis to (Packed Erythrocytes (RBC's))
but gives longer history.

Hair have to be from back of the head, washed for the last 2-3 weeks in baby Johnson shampoo, natural hair, unbleached, non-colored.

 

[OldGator]

T-cream is for getting your DHT where you want, for the balance of your T needs use T-shots.
And do not waste to much time, go for BAT~575 or real close to it.

I'm thinking that will be the key - doing both (Cream to address my lower DHT).
As far as wasting time, going on 8 months now and still nowhere near BAT 575.
I respect my doc's thorough approach and I don't regret the try at HCG mono (I could've lucked out like Jinxie or Colkurtz). But I am getting a little anxious.
Even still, I feel better than when I started - and much more educated thanks to this forum.

 

[jinxie]

Thank you.
Details, details.
Ok, you are injecting HCG same time of the day, evening.
So two days break (Sunday, Monday) is important for HPTA sake.

There is another new information, (HCG shot at night).

Tuesday, Wednesday
Thursday, Friday
Saturday, Sunday, Monday
------------------------------------------------------

Asuming that I would like to switch to the above HCG schedule,
how would you see timing for testosterone.

Would Wed, Fri, and Sun or Mon be acceptable, what time, morning or evening?
.
..
Does this pattern create any predictable patern for sexual desire (better sex on Sunday??)?

Jan, I'd keep it simple -- E3Ds. You'll have 2 days in between every time. I dont notice orgasms (I assume that's the real intent of your question) being better on any given day. I think the blood level is relatively stable on this protocol -- hCG monotherapy, that is.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Jan, I'd keep it simple -- E3Ds. You'll have 2 days in between every time. I dont notice orgasms (I assume that's the real intent of your question) being better on any given day. I think the blood level is relatively stable on this protocol -- hCG monotherapy, that is.

Right now I'm injecting Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday every week. I don't know my numbers yet, but it feels good. My doc says that HCG levels maintain for three days. I read (at Pubmed I think) that it does, but its peaks is within 36 hours.

If this doesn't work I will inject every 3 days. I used to inject 3 and then 4. Supposedly that was good for my HPTA (my numbers were good), but I definitely felt the 4th day; it wasn't terrible - just not as good.

 

[jinxie]

Right now I'm injecting Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday every week. I don't know my numbers yet, but it feels good. My doc says that HCG levels maintain for three days. I read (at Pubmed I think) that it does, but its peaks is within 36 hours.

If this doesn't work I will inject every 3 days. I used to inject 3 and then 4. Supposedly that was good for my HPTA (my numbers were good), but I definitely felt the 4th day; it wasn't terrible - just not as good.

We are really comparing apples in oranges in offering these suggestions to Jan, Colkurtz. Jan isn't on monotherapy, like us; he takes around 200 mgs of T per week, in addition to the ~1750 IUs of hCG. I would think he should only shoot twice per week (at most E3Ds), as Crisler suggests, just in case the hCG boosts the T further. As I recall, his T numbers are already optimal, at the very high end of the scale. Jan, perhaps you should speak with your doctor. He can likely tell you what hCG may do, and what it won't do, for you.

 

[JanSz]

We are really comparing apples in oranges in offering these suggestions to Jan, Colkurtz. Jan isn't on monotherapy, like us; he takes around 200 mgs of T per week, in addition to the ~1750 IUs of hCG. I would think he should only shoot twice per week (at most E3Ds), as Crisler suggests, just in case the hCG boosts the T further. As I recall, his T numbers are already optimal, at the very high end of the scale. Jan, perhaps you should speak with your doctor. He can likely tell you what hCG may do, and what it won't do, for you.

You must be kidding.

I do not want to rock the boat with my doc.
I ask him what I need, he gives it to me, cursory review on his part, then I am gone. Do not want to take his time.

I am rather cynical about (most of doctor's) real knowledge.

My doc have about 10 placks and diplomas from anti-aging courses he often attends, so probably hi knows something, I just do not want to test his knowledge.

What I am learning from colkurtz_spf I can't get anywhere else, so please keep it comming.
---------------------------------------------------------
I am on E2D schedule, one day T shot the next day HCG shot, repeat.
178.5mg/week depo testosterone
1750iu/week HCG
25.5 units T-shot
500iu HCG shot
no Arimidex since Mar30/08

Hopefully tommorow I will have my current T, E2, DHT values.

I have a general intrest in HCG only therapy.
At the moment mostly to understand how it works, also to have it in writting for benefit of others.
Look to me as overlooked treasure. When testis are up to the taks, this theraphy should work much better than Test only with small amount of HCG.

I may consider HCG only trial run for myself, but I have to orderly complete my other ongoing health projects.
---------------------------------------------------------

""""like us; he takes around 200 mgs of T per week, in addition to the ~1750 IUs of hCG. """""

I am puzzled, I thought that Colkurtz did not touched testosterone in at least two years, not sure about you, Jinxie, when was the last time you had external T dose?

 

[jinxie]

You must be kidding.

I do not want to rock the boat with my doc.
I ask him what I need, he gives it to me, cursory review on his part, then I am gone. Do not want to take his time.

I am rather cynical about (most of doctor's) real knowledge.

My doc have about 10 placks and diplomas from anti-aging courses he often attends, so probably hi knows something, I just do not want to test his knowledge.

What I am learning from colkurtz_spf I can't get anywhere else, so please keep it comming.
---------------------------------------------------------
I am on E2D schedule, one day T shot the next day HCG shot, repeat.
178.5mg/week depo testosterone
1750iu/week HCG
25.5 units T-shot
500iu HCG shot
no Arimidex since Mar30/08

Hopefully tommorow I will have my current T, E2, DHT values.

I have a general intrest in HCG only therapy.
At the moment mostly to understand how it works, also to have it in writting for benefit of others.
Look to me as overlooked treasure. When testis are up to the taks, this theraphy should work much better than Test only with small amount of HCG.

I may consider HCG only trial run for myself, but I have to orderly complete my other ongoing health projects.
---------------------------------------------------------

""""like us; he takes around 200 mgs of T per week, in addition to the ~1750 IUs of hCG. """""

I am puzzled, I thought that Colkurtz did not touched testosterone in at least two years, not sure about you, Jinxie, when was the last time you had external T dose?

Jan, you need to look at my grammar more carefully: I was saying that you are not on hCG only, unlike Colkurtz and I.

As for Colkurtz sharing information, I am all for it. Thanks to him and Old Gator, I found the key to success. My point was that any recommendations are coming from the hCG monotherapy/fully-functioning testicles (whether or not secondary) perspective. I tried to provide you with some useful information so that you can evaluate what may work best for you, given your unique circumstances. In my opinion, that results in hCG no more than E3Ds. As I mentioned before, I think coming off T would be extremely misguided. Your T levels will plummet (as you have relied on exogenous T for so long, and your testicles may no longer produce), the hCG will not bring you anywhere close to where you are now, and you'll end up feeling awful for months, even if it ultimately brings your levels up. I am not aware of anyone your age who has successfully responded to hCG monotherapy, and most far younger (such as Old Gator) have not enjoyed the successes of Colkurtz (~50 yrs. old) or me (37 yrs. old). I believe Colkurtz response is exceptional, and I don't think others can expect reasonably to respond as did he. I think Old Gator got up to TT 700 or so.

As for my last external dose of T, it was about 2 months ago. I was only on it for about 6-8 weeks. I didn't suffer any ill consequence from stopping, at which time I bumped up my hCG.

I promise I wont ask this again, but why would you even consider switching over to hCG monotherapy, given the risks, given that you seem to feel well, and your numbers are stellar?

In any event, good luck, Jan.

J

 

[JanSz]

Jan, you need to look at my grammar more carefully: I was saying that you are not on hCG only, unlike Colkurtz and I.

As for Colkurtz sharing information, I am all for it. Thanks to him and Old Gator, I found the key to success. My point was that any recommendations are coming from the hCG monotherapy/fully-functioning testicles (whether or not secondary) perspective. I tried to provide you with some useful information so that you can evaluate what may work best for you, given your unique circumstances. In my opinion, that results in hCG no more than E3Ds. As I mentioned before, I think coming off T would be extremely misguided. Your T levels will plummet (as you have relied on exogenous T for so long, and your testicles may no longer produce), the hCG will not bring you anywhere close to where you are now, and you'll end up feeling awful for months, even if it ultimately brings your levels up. I am not aware of anyone your age who has successfully responded to hCG monotherapy, and most far younger (such as Old Gator) have not enjoyed the successes of Colkurtz (~50 yrs. old) or me (37 yrs. old). I believe Colkurtz response is exceptional, and I don't think others can expect reasonably to respond as did he. I think Old Gator got up to TT 700 or so.

As for my last external dose of T, it was about 2 months ago. I was only on it for about 6-8 weeks. I didn't suffer any ill consequence from stopping, at which time I bumped up my hCG.

I promise I wont ask this again, but why would you even consider switching over to hCG monotherapy, given the risks, given that you seem to feel well, and your numbers are stellar?

In any event, good luck, Jan.

J

You are right,
I must have been talking with girls while my teacher was trying to teach me grammar.

Good luck to all of us.
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
Sorry, I have to reply to this part, possibly for a benefit to younger guys who are already on TRT (T + small amount of HCG) and may plan to switch to this HCG alone system.

You said:
"Your T levels will plummet (as you have relied on exogenous T for so long, and your testicles may no longer produce), the hCG will not bring you anywhere close to where you are now, and you'll end up feeling awful for months, even if it ultimately brings your levels up."

To prevent crashing as you described;
I would keep on raising HCG dose until either
I can't control E2 with 2mg/week Arimidex
or
I have reached 6000iu/week HCG dose
I would not think of reducing my Testsoterone dose until I would have evidence that my BAT is risen over the top of range, that is over 575.
If I did reach BAT>575, I would reduce testosterone dose gradually.


'
'

 

[jinxie]

You are right,
I must have been talking with girls while my teacher was trying to teach me grammar.

Good luck to all of us.
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
Sorry, I have to reply to this part, possibly for a benefit to younger guys who are already on TRT (T + small amount of HCG) and may plan to switch to this HCG alone system.

You said:
"Your T levels will plummet (as you have relied on exogenous T for so long, and your testicles may no longer produce), the hCG will not bring you anywhere close to where you are now, and you'll end up feeling awful for months, even if it ultimately brings your levels up."

To prevent crashing as you described;
I would keep on raising HCG dose until either
I can't control E2 with 2mg/week Arimidex
or
I have reached 6000iu/week HCG dose
I would not think of reducing my Testsoterone dose until I would have evidence that my BAT is risen over the top of range, that is over 575.
If I did reach BAT>575, I would reduce testosterone dose gradually.


'
'

Jan, you are like the mad scientist, working on his own body. But it is your own body, so do to it as you will, brother. That said, you may wish to get a basic home chemistry set, and use that as an outlet. :rofl: Only kidding. I wish you good health and whatever else you are in search of -- like I said, I won't ask again what that is.

Incidentally, the above approach has little chance of succeeding. Why? Because if you are on that level of T, which you've been on for some time, you've effectively shut down your testicles from producing T (even assuming they can produce on there own, with or without hCG). Perhaps you can work with HAN on this. I'm sure he has lots of ideas. In any event, again, good luck.

 

[OldGator]

I think Old Gator got up to TT 700 or so. J

Yep. Only 680 TT actually - on 1200iu EOD. Shippen saw enough and we went to T.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

We are really comparing apples in oranges in offering these suggestions to Jan, Colkurtz. Jan isn't on monotherapy, like us; he takes around 200 mgs of T per week, in addition to the ~1750 IUs of hCG. I would think he should only shoot twice per week (at most E3Ds), as Crisler suggests, just in case the hCG boosts the T further. As I recall, his T numbers are already optimal, at the very high end of the scale. Jan, perhaps you should speak with your doctor. He can likely tell you what hCG may do, and what it won't do, for you.

I am making no suggestions to Jan. The fact is that I'm bouncing ideas off him - he makes me think, and so do you.

I'm leaving on a trip for a month. When I return I plan to draw blood. I think I'm going to change my protocol to every third day starting this Tuesday. I've never had a problem waiting three days to inject; it was the fourth that bothered me. I'm glad we have this forum.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Thanks. I'll talk to doc about this. Maybe give it another go.
At 700 TT I was 1200iu's EOD. Never really pushed the E up past 25, I just think my doc doesn't like to go beyond 1200-1500 EOD. They all have a different opinion of max dose. With my high SHBG I just had too much ground to cover (I guess). Funny, the T-Cream so far hasn't pushed me past 700 either although I feel better because of DHT boost that you can't get on HCG alone.

I would try 2500 IUs every three days and see where that takes you.

 

[OldGator]

I would try 2500 IUs every three days and see where that takes you.

Awaiting BW for 200mg ED T-Cream. If that doesn't get me to the next level - and befire I go to shots - maybe I'll see if I can give it a try (depending if doc goes for it which may be a long shot).

 

[jinxie]

I am making no suggestions to Jan. The fact is that I'm bouncing ideas off him - he makes me think, and so do you.

I'm leaving on a trip for a month. When I return I plan to draw blood. I think I'm going to change my protocol to every third day starting this Tuesday. I've never had a problem waiting three days to inject; it was the fourth that bothered me. I'm glad we have this forum.

Poor wording on my part. The intent behind my message was to emphasize to Jan that his circumstances are highly particular, because of his age and the duration/dose of T-depo, not for you to resist providing information. Sorry for the poor communication on my part.

I really appreciate this forum as well, and your posts in particular.

 

[jinxie]

Awaiting BW for 200mg ED T-Cream. If that doesn't get me to the next level - and befire I go to shots - maybe I'll see if I can give it a try (depending if doc goes for it which may be a long shot).

OG, I think that your current protocol should do it. How are you feeling? Are you working out, making gains and recovering more quickly? These are the things I first noticed. Before HRT, I would be sore for days, even from 2 mile walks.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Poor wording on my part. The intent behind my message was to emphasize to Jan that his circumstances are highly particular, because of his age and the duration/dose of T-depo, not for you to resist providing information. Sorry for the poor communication on my part.

I really appreciate this forum as well, and your posts in particular.

There's no need to apologize. I'm well aware of Jan's primary condition and use of HCG as it pertains to it. Years ago doctor's would prescribe one or two weeks of HCG at the end of a three month cycle. Thanks to people like Dr. Shippen and Dr John new protocols have been developed that seem much more effective and improve quality of life.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I, for one will benefit from your experience.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Awaiting BW for 200mg ED T-Cream. If that doesn't get me to the next level - and befire I go to shots - maybe I'll see if I can give it a try (depending if doc goes for it which may be a long shot).

Numbers are good, but not as important as how you feel. I still think you are a good responder to HCG. You probably need to change your protocol. I recommend Jinxie's E3D. It jibes with what my doctor has been saying. You probably need more HCG. If higher doses don't do it you can always go back to exogenous. You need to give yourself at least two months before you draw to know the results. I honestly don't see any harm in trying. You'll be very happy with the results if it works.

 

[SOLARUS]

Incidentally, the above approach has little chance of succeeding. Why? Because if you are on that level of T, which you've been on for some time, you've effectively shut down your testicles from producing T (even assuming they can produce on there own, with or without hCG).

if a person has been using HCG religiously during their T use, they can theoretically maintain high ITT levels indefinitely. i dont believe there is a study that shows otherwise.

obviously, every person on either T shots, T cream or HCG is shut down at the HPTA, but that system is faster to respond than the testes.

as for 2 days off HCG allowing the HPTA to "briefly work", that probably is nonsense, especially if one has shot HCG within 3 days of those off-days. the surge of unnaturally high T takes longer than that to run its course....but like i said, the HPTA is quick to come back, and i believe there is no real detriment to an all-week approach to HCG administration.

JMO.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

if a person has been using HCG religiously during their T use, they can theoretically maintain high ITT levels indefinitely. i dont believe there is a study that shows otherwise.

obviously, every person on either T shots, T cream or HCG is shut down at the HPTA, but that system is faster to respond than the testes.

as for 2 days off HCG allowing the HPTA to "briefly work", that probably is nonsense, especially if one has shot HCG within 3 days of those off-days. the surge of unnaturally high T takes longer than that to run its course....but like i said, the HPTA is quick to come back, and i believe there is no real detriment to an all-week approach to HCG administration.

JMO.

It's been my experience that frequent dosing diminishes results and increases sides; I'm on monotherapy and have tried a few protocols.

You're probably right about HPTA. According to my doctor, HCG levels sustain for 3 days. He had me inject twice per week - one shot would be 4 days out. The forth day would be the break. I'm not sure it's worth it, and have decided to inject every three days - not to give HPTA a rest, but to avoid diminished results and negative sides from cumulative HCG levels. This may be of little relevance to a low dosage user who is also using test.

 

[Random987]

I'm a little late to this party, but, correct me if I am wrong, even with HCG monotherapy, the HPTA will still be shut down....

It's been my experience that frequent dosing diminishes results and increases sides; I'm on monotherapy and have tried a few protocols.

You're probably right about HPTA. According to my doctor, HCG levels sustain for 3 days. He had me inject twice per week - one shot would be 4 days out. The forth day would be the break. I'm not sure it's worth it, and have decided to inject every three days - not to give HPTA a rest, but to avoid diminished results and negative sides from cumulative HCG levels. This may be of little relevance to a low dosage user who is also using test.

 

[jinxie]

I'm a little late to this party, but, correct me if I am wrong, even with HCG monotherapy, the HPTA will still be shut down....

that's correct. nil LH when taking hCG.

 

[The Matrix]

that's correct. nil LH when taking hCG.

So can eventually some one can lean off it to get there own going again or once you started you are doom..

 

[colkurtz_spf]

that's correct. nil LH when taking hCG.

LH is shut down with testosterone as well.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

So can eventually some one can lean off it to get there own going again or once you started you are doom..

I was on huge doses (8000 - 10,000 IUs/wk) of HCG for a year, and weened off it to see if I could get my LH to a sufficient level. I achieved my baseline from three years ago and nothing more. I stayed off of HCG for a total of 8 months, and didn't feel any worse than I did before I started therapy, in fact I felt a little better.

Unless shutdown is due to a cycle, it may be impossible to restart HPTA. Maybe the near future will offer a gene therapy or stem cell solution.

 

[SOLARUS]

So can eventually some one can lean off it to get there own going again or once you started you are doom..

your HPTA will eventually restart after cessation of either HCG or T. certain PCT protocols (clomid, nolva) accelerate this by preferentially binding to the HPTA ERs (and in other places, of course) and tricking them into thinking there is nil estrogen, which compels the feedback mechanism to jumpstart T production. it's far from foolproof, as some users will be shutdown for years after cycles, but in most of those cases there is testicular / leydig cell shutdown also, which takes much longer to restart.

i've found that with HCG use concurrent with T administration, i can recover from half a year of T in just a couple weeks of PCT. that's not verified by bloodwork however, just libido, mood and absence of any low T sides...(and yes, that's "a couple weeks" AFTER the T has cleared!)

 

[dailychange]

any updates to the HCG mono?