TRT WORKS, My results have been amazing!!

[dougfl]

I was skeptical at first but I am a true believer now. I have been on TRT for better than 6 months now and the results are nothing short of amazing! My total test number was 235 when I was first tested and was told that for a 40 year old man this was too low and could be causing allot of my health issues. I was diagnosed with Hypogonadism and was put on Testim 5 grams daily, I did OK with Testim but was concerned about the possibility of transference to my young daughter, so I switched to injections. I started out at 200mg every 2 weeks, then went to 100mg every week and ended up with my optimal dose at 200mg Test E every 7 days along with 1/2 MG of Armidex 3x weekly. The main thing with TRT is that it is not an exact science and everyone is different and may require different doses and combinations to find your sweet spot. Once I got my dose dialed in and my numbers were great I started to feel like a new man. I have been able to get off my BP medicine, my cholesterol medicine and I have even recently stopped taking Prozac as well. I had been having issues with BP, Cholesterol, and Anxiety/Depression for years and it all just went away once this treatment took hold. I started out at 225lbs with a 38inch waist, I am now 205lbs with a 34inch waist and my muscles are bigger and more defined than ever. I now have a decent six pack instead of a keg! I am stronger now than ever before and feel like I am in my 20's again, not to mention what it has done for my sex life. I wish I would have found this out years ago and I hope that anyone new to TRT has the patience and resolve to stay the course until they get it right. Having a great doctor who is willing to listen to you is key, if your doctor tries to force the standard 200mg every 2 weeks with no AI treatment down your throat without being open to adjusting and listening to you FIND A NEW ONE!! Stick with it, IT WILL WORK AND YOU WILL BE A NEW MAN (YOUR WIFE WILL LOVE IT TOO!!) GOOD LUCK.

 

[MetalMX]

Do you have blood work before starting and where you are now? it would be cool to see.

Also did you try HCG as a first option then do TRT?

Is this primary or secondary hypogonadism?

 

[The Matrix]

I was skeptical at first but I am a true believer now. I have been on TRT for better than 6 months now and the results are nothing short of amazing! My total test number was 235 when I was first tested and was told that for a 40 year old man this was too low and could be causing allot of my health issues. I was diagnosed with Hypogonadism and was put on Testim 5 grams daily, I did OK with Testim but was concerned about the possibility of transference to my young daughter, so I switched to injections. I started out at 200mg every 2 weeks, then went to 100mg every week and ended up with my optimal dose at 200mg Test E every 7 days along with 1/2 MG of Armidex 3x weekly. The main thing with TRT is that it is not an exact science and everyone is different and may require different doses and combinations to find your sweet spot. Once I got my dose dialed in and my numbers were great I started to feel like a new man. I have been able to get off my BP medicine, my cholesterol medicine and I have even recently stopped taking Prozac as well. I had been having issues with BP, Cholesterol, and Anxiety/Depression for years and it all just went away once this treatment took hold. I started out at 225lbs with a 38inch waist, I am now 205lbs with a 34inch waist and my muscles are bigger and more defined than ever. I now have a decent six pack instead of a keg! I am stronger now than ever before and feel like I am in my 20's again, not to mention what it has done for my sex life. I wish I would have found this out years ago and I hope that anyone new to TRT has the patience and resolve to stay the course until they get it right. Having a great doctor who is willing to listen to you is key, if your doctor tries to force the standard 200mg every 2 weeks with no AI treatment down your throat without being open to adjusting and listening to you FIND A NEW ONE!! Stick with it, IT WILL WORK AND YOU WILL BE A NEW MAN (YOUR WIFE WILL LOVE IT TOO!!) GOOD LUCK.

Doug glad you found something that works, but that protocol is a traditional candy cutter from majority of anti aging clinic. They try different things will no blood follow up. After the 6months or any time after the first 1-2 months did they do an blood test to confirm where your levels are at or just increase the dosage to where you feel good. I have dealt with people that have been on this protocol and they never get follow up work and over time they start to have other issues because this high of dosage effects other hormone systems. So just be aware yes it may feel great now, but what are your levels that is the question and do they exceed what is TRT limitation. If you were 235 prior then 1 cc is taking you up to the 1200-1400 range very easily..Get blood tested and have dr follow up. most antiaging clinics take your money and leave you hanging

 

[Shootist]

What a great story. I'm looking forward to similar results.
I picked up my first vial of T cyp today and I'm now trying to figure out how to get it into my body. I hate shots!

 

[dougfl]

Current test reading is 950 and has been consistantly between 895 an1000 the last 3 tests. I am not using HCG, I have seen some testicular atrophy but not that bad. My doctor does a good job of reading the blood tests and asking you how you feel as well. I am at the high end of normal but that is where I feel the best, doc says some people feel fantastic at 600 or even 400, we are all different.

 

[The Matrix]

Current test reading is 950 and has been consistantly between 895 an1000 the last 3 tests. I am not using HCG, I have seen some testicular atrophy but not that bad. My doctor does a good job of reading the blood tests and asking you how you feel as well. I am at the high end of normal but that is where I feel the best, doc says some people feel fantastic at 600 or even 400, we are all different.

Yes HCG can be disaterous for some ones biochemistry and a god sent for another. So you need to find out what works best for you along with drs help. Atleast you are being monitred which is good but when is the blood drawn? What day of the shot? 950 may be at the trough putting your peak at 1200-1400 as i orginally mentioned before...If its drawn on the 2-3 day after the shot then that is a pretty good number. If it was drawn on day of the next shot then its way too high..
These are just an observation I have seen in clincal practice. Yes numbers look out of range and are most likely above normal ranges for a male at 15 years old even. Over all ?I am glad you are feeling better thats main point, but the short term may feel good but learn term it may not be the best route as your body receptores and tissue normalize to the new levels.

 

[dougfl]

Blood work drawn on day of shot just prior to next injection average 500-600.

 

[JanSz]

Blood work drawn on day of shot just prior to next injection average 500-600.

Sounds lowish, but TotalT is a poor indicator.
Look at BAT of if you do not have it then calculate you FreeT.

I like to draw blood 48 hrs after the T shot.
May be more important if one shot is far away from another.

You follow what your doc tells you.

 

[tawney]

doug,

my results and story are very similar to yours! at 40 years old I finally got on HRT because of many problems- no sex drive, tired all the time, terrible memory problems, etc, etc.., and now after 4 months of TRT I SWEAR TO YOU that I am every bit as good as I was at 20 and THEN SOME. My entire life and health has done a complete turn around and I can't believe I went 7 years feeling worse and worse before i found out about low testosterone symptoms. LOL

I also had the body changeover, and I look like a teenager on the wrestling team. My libito came back strong, and my mind (the thing that scared me the most) has returned. I am no longer standing in a room wondering why I went in there, or standing at the atm machine unable to remember my pin no#... this HRT stuff is unbelievable.

My wife gets the hammering she deserves now, and she even said that I got better at it, LOLOLOL (If that's possible-hehehe) and now when I take off my shirt to jump in the pool I feel like a superhero, instead of trying to see if I can get away with just wearing the t-shirt into the pool to hide my chubby belly. The HRT actually gave me abs again and definition I never knew I could have.

If you are a man that truly has low testosterone after doing bloodwork and honestly needs this HRT therapy, I'm telling you- do NOT take no for an answer if you have some dumb doctor who thinks like the media does about this issue. Get a doctor/clinic (like I did) who specializes in anti-aging medicine and get the treatment you need. If it does for you what it did for me, you will be glad you stood your ground and insisted on recieving the latest cutting edge treatments that are now available.

ok- I'm starting to sound like a commercial- good luck to all of you!

peace out
Al


Al

 

[namtrag]

God I hope it works for me half that much, so far no good.

 

[Shootist]

doug,

my results and story are very similar to yours! at 40 years old I finally got on HRT because of many problems- no sex drive, tired all the time, terrible memory problems, etc, etc.., and now after 4 months of TRT I SWEAR TO YOU that I am every bit as good as I was at 20 and THEN SOME. My entire life and health has done a complete turn around and I can't believe I went 7 years feeling worse and worse before i found out about low testosterone symptoms. LOL

I also had the body changeover, and I look like a teenager on the wrestling team. My libito came back strong, and my mind (the thing that scared me the most) has returned. I am no longer standing in a room wondering why I went in there, or standing at the atm machine unable to remember my pin no#... this HRT stuff is unbelievable.

My wife gets the hammering she deserves now, and she even said that I got better at it, LOLOLOL (If that's possible-hehehe) and now when I take off my shirt to jump in the pool I feel like a superhero, instead of trying to see if I can get away with just wearing the t-shirt into the pool to hide my chubby belly. The HRT actually gave me abs again and definition I never knew I could have.

If you are a man that truly has low testosterone after doing bloodwork and honestly needs this HRT therapy, I'm telling you- do NOT take no for an answer if you have some dumb doctor who thinks like the media does about this issue. Get a doctor/clinic (like I did) who specializes in anti-aging medicine and get the treatment you need. If it does for you what it did for me, you will be glad you stood your ground and insisted on recieving the latest cutting edge treatments that are now available.

ok- I'm starting to sound like a commercial- good luck to all of you!

peace out
Al


Al

Al...

Could you tell us a little more about your treatment? Maybe before and after lab numbers?
Thanks!

 

[budreau]

Al...

Could you tell us a little more about your treatment? Maybe before and after lab numbers?
Thanks!

what clinic are you using if you don't mind me asking.

 

[tawney]

i take 200mg of test cyp per week, .3 arimidex EOD, and 250iu of HCG EOD.

as far as lab work, (there was a lot) but my cholesterol went down, and obviously my 300 testosterone level went up.

I used my GP for all the starting tests and the diagnosis, then he told me to find a clinic because he said that he wasn't a specialist in HRT, but my less that 1% free testosterone was an obvious sign that I needed the treatment. I called an online clinic in florida, and sent them all the labs from my doc and they got my treatment started.

I don't know if TRT works the same for everyone- but from reading these online posts and researching this stuff for almost 6 months, I would have to say that the guys who don't feel better are more often than not being given cream or patch treatments (NOT shots) and those who don't get at least 2 shots a week also seem to have complaints about how they feel (mostly the once every 2 week guys with GP's who don't know any better) but this is just what I have noticed from the posts I see. I also think the guys who can't get arimidex or HCG complain a lot that they felt good for a couple weeks but then they didn't feel good anymore after that.

I think that it's the responsibility of the patient to research his own condition, become an expert at it, and then seek out a compitent TRUE expert pysician or clinic who can oversee his care.

These message boards are loaded with quite a few guys who seem to be letting the doctors tell them bad advice and then send them home with a medical bill and no satisfaction.

It's a shame that so many people are willing to let themselves be treated that way. The information is out there if you wanna learn, and the doctors and clinics who truly DO want to help are also out there if are willing to find them.

JMO

 

[RockyD]

Sounds great Doug...like a broken record from most of us here. I too started TRT @ 40 y/o but now after 2 years I feel like I'm 22 y/o again!

Congrats...

I only inj. 100 mg/ml of test cyp. every week now ....I'm completely off the transdermals. (Testim/Androgel)

What a great story. I'm looking forward to similar results.
I picked up my first vial of T cyp today and I'm now trying to figure out how to get it into my body. I hate shots!

Join the club! I hate doing the injections myself also but my doctor is cool and told me it's cheaper if I do it myself.
I still hate doing them though.

 

[Shootist]

Sounds great Doug...like a broken record from most of us here. I too started TRT @ 40 y/o but now after 2 years I feel like I'm 22 y/o again!

Congrats...

I only inj. 100 mg/ml of test cyp. every week now ....I'm completely off the transdermals. (Testim/Androgel)



Join the club! I hate doing the injections myself also but my doctor is cool and told me it's cheaper if I do it myself.
I still hate doing them though.

My first 10ml vial of T cyp was only $50 at Walgreens. My insurance definately covered some but I don't know what it would have been without insurance. I'm glad I asked to start on the shots instead of transdermals. I keep reading where many that try the TD's first end up on shots later.

 

[namtrag]

My doc is doing other stuff too, says if the system gets fixed, my body might make more T. My progesterone was real low, and my dhea was low normal. I am also low on zinc and vitamin C, and low normal on magnesium and Vitamin D. He says everything works in concert. I am not sure if most doctors do the type of treatment I am getting (DHEA, pregnenolone, testosterone, mineral IV's, vitamin D shot, etc), don't most just give T?

 

[tawney]

I think that most doctors accept the fact that 'odds-wise' it's better to suppliment the t for the patient while they troubleshoot the problem rather than make you continue to suffer for another year while they try alternative ways of getting you to produce your own t again, or assuming that your t would easily come back if they just corrected a vitamin problem or similar thing. This is JMO- but if I were a physician and a typical 50 year old with a pot belly and labs of 200testosterone were in my office, chances are that he is one of a lo-o-o-ong line of men with the same common problem- so I would treat it as such for the meantime, and ask the patient how far he wanted to go into the realm of testing to rule out the possibility that he was an exception. But that's just me.

 

[namtrag]

Yeah, my doc is doing that with me while he works on the other stuff. I was a pot bellied dude 3 years ago, but I have been busting ass for 3 years and am down to where I just look like I need to lose 15-20lbs! lol

The difficulty losing the last 20 lbs and my low libido were what led me to the doctor.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I think that most doctors accept the fact that 'odds-wise' it's better to suppliment the t for the patient while they troubleshoot the problem rather than make you continue to suffer for another year while they try alternative ways of getting you to produce your own t again, or assuming that your t would easily come back if they just corrected a vitamin problem or similar thing. This is JMO- but if I were a physician and a typical 50 year old with a pot belly and labs of 200testosterone were in my office, chances are that he is one of a lo-o-o-ong line of men with the same common problem- so I would treat it as such for the meantime, and ask the patient how far he wanted to go into the realm of testing to rule out the possibility that he was an exception. But that's just me.

If restarting HPTA is the goal TRT is not the answer. Exogenous test will make it impossible a doctor to trouble shoot the problem. It shuts down the body's production of both testosterone and LH which is a key factor in determining primary or secondary hypogonadism.

 

[Shootist]

If restarting HPTA is the goal TRT is not the answer. Exogenous test will make it impossible a doctor to trouble shoot the problem. It shuts down the body's production of both testosterone and LH which is a key factor in determining primary or secondary hypogonadism.

Hopefully the doctor would do all the necessary labs before prescribing TRT.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Hopefully the doctor would do all the necessary labs before prescribing TRT.

Hopefully! Once TRT has been started it is pointless. First the patient would have to achieve baseline levels. It's easier to see what works before shutting down the system.

 

[darkblue1]

Hopefully! Once TRT has been started it is pointless. First the patient would have to achieve baseline levels. It's easier to see what works before shutting down the system.

If the patient is secondary and is on androgel/testim will he achieve normal levels in case of testosterone if he is not concerned about fertility

 

[colkurtz_spf]

If the patient is secondary and is on androgel/testim will he achieve normal levels in case of testosterone if he is not concerned about fertility

He can achieve normal levels, but his own production will be shut down. A secondary patient is still capable of achieving normal levels through testicular production. Usually HCG does the trick by mimicking LH. My total test is 1005 with free at 286 on HCG alone.

 

[jinxie]

Hopefully! Once TRT has been started it is pointless. First the patient would have to achieve baseline levels. It's easier to see what works before shutting down the system.

Actually, I think there is some middle ground. I was on T-cyp, 100 mgs., and hCG, 500 IUs, per week, as my initial protocol. My numbers looked good, though a little on the high end for DHT and E2. I added Adex at .25 mgs EOD, and dropped the T-cyp down to 75 mgs. After a several weeks at 75 mgs of T-cyp, I cut the T-cyp loose, and then gradually increased the hCG over the course of a month to 1500 IUs E3D (and Adex .3 mgs on shot days). I never felt any worse during the transition, relative to when I had been taking T-cyp, nor did I lose strength or weight, and am pretty certain that the hCG and the Adex were enough to keep my T levels within a healthy range. I did all this under the strong assumption that I am a strong hCG responder, like Colkurtz. After several weeks at higher hCG doses, I began feeling far better.

I'll get my first monotherapy lab results back next week, and will share the results.

Keep the faith -- mono works for some of us.

J

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Actually, I think there is some middle ground. I was on T-cyp, 100 mgs., and hCG, 500 IUs, per week, as my initial protocol. My numbers looked good, though a little on the high end for DHT and E2. I added Adex at .25 mgs EOD, and dropped the T-cyp down to 75 mgs. After a several weeks at 75 mgs of T-cyp, I cut the T-cyp loose, and then gradually increased the hCG over the course of a month to 1500 IUs E3D (and Adex .3 mgs on shot days). I never felt any worse during the transition, relative to when I had been taking T-cyp, nor did I lose strength or weight, and am pretty certain that the hCG and the Adex were enough to keep my T levels within a healthy range. I did all this under the strong assumption that I am a strong hCG responder, like Colkurtz. After several weeks at higher hCG doses, I began feeling far better.

I'll get my first monotherapy lab results back next week, and will share the results.

Keep the faith -- mono works for some of us.

J

How long were you on exogenous test before you transitioned? I was on testosterone for over a year and had trouble switching over. Before HRT (a little over 3 years ago) I had TT of 475. When I tried to transition from testosterone to HCG my total dropped to 97 and I felt terrible. It took me a few months to reestablish baselines for my doctor, and a few more to feel good again. Remember, I had to start with 10,000 IUs per week the first few months to see any results, and follow up with 8000 per week for the next 10. Now I do well on 2000 IUs. Do you think that's an argument against desensitization?

I believe that HCG therapy works for the vast majority of secondary patients. The problem is that most are afraid, or unwilling to take the necessary dose. I haven't seen anyone else in this forum who has taken as much as I did for an extended period of time.

 

[jinxie]

How long were you on exogenous test before you transitioned? I was on testosterone for over a year and had trouble switching over. Before HRT (a little over 3 years ago) I had TT of 475. When I tried to transition from testosterone to HCG my total dropped to 97 and I felt terrible. It took me a few months to reestablish baselines for my doctor, and a few more to feel good again. Remember, I had to start with 10,000 IUs per week the first few months to see any results, and follow up with 8000 per week for the next 10. Now I do well on 2000 IUs. Do you think that's an argument against desensitization?

I believe that HCG therapy works for the vast majority of secondary patients. The problem is that most are afraid, or unwilling to take the necessary dose. I haven't seen anyone else in this forum who has taken as much as I did for an extended period of time.

I was on the T-cyp for about 8 weeks. That's certainly long enough to cause a shut down. (I did not have blood drawn before transitioning.) But my sense is that I am such a strong hCG responder that this was keeping me normalized. Before treatment, total t was 350, and free T was 45 (abysmal!). When TT was 1180 at day 6 (the day before the absolute trough), without any hCG since the preceding day 7, and only 100 mgs of T Cyp on Day 1, I extrapolated that I was responding strongly to the hCG.

I never felt great on the T-cyp/hCG combo. I started making gains at the gym, and didn't ache for days like I had before (such that I couldnt even exercise at all), but it pales in comparison to the hCG monotherapy. I'm really looking forward to seeing my numbers. I am hopeful that they are mid to upper, and not in the ether. That's what I expect.

As for your former dose, it's specificially contemplated by the package insert, so I would not expect any harm at such a dose for less than a year. Longer term, maybe. My sense is that all of the densitization talk on these boards originated from a few doctors, including Dr. Crisler. I am not discrediting him or his opinion, though I am not so sure it is supported by a creditable medical source.

Thanks to you and Old Gator, I gave this a shot, and am forever thankful.

Keep on keepin' on.

J

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I was on the T-cyp for about 8 weeks. That's certainly long enough to cause a shut down. (I did not have blood drawn before transitioning.) But my sense is that I am such a strong hCG responder that this was keeping me normalized. Before treatment, total t was 350, and free T was 45 (abysmal!). When TT was 1180 at day 6 (the day before the absolute trough), without any hCG since the preceding day 7, and only 100 mgs of T Cyp on Day 1, I extrapolated that I was responding strongly to the hCG.

I never felt great on the T-cyp/hCG combo. I started making gains at the gym, and didn't ache for days like I had before (such that I couldnt even exercise at all), but it pales in comparison to the hCG monotherapy. I'm really looking forward to seeing my numbers. I am hopeful that they are mid to upper, and not in the ether. That's what I expect.

As for your former dose, it's specificially contemplated by the package insert, so I would not expect any harm at such a dose for less than a year. Longer term, maybe. My sense is that all of the densitization talk on these boards originated from a few doctors, including Dr. Crisler. I am not discrediting him or his opinion, though I am not so sure it is supported by a creditable medical source.

Thanks to you and Old Gator, I gave this a shot, and am forever thankful.

Keep on keepin' on.

J

The suggested dosage on Novarell (HCG) is for infertile woman. Body builders on cycle in the past would inject 10,000/wk IM divided in three doses as part of PCT. I haven't seen any HRT docs prescribe that much as an ongoing form of therapy.

You were shut down for a very brief time. It's a good thing you switched when you did. I doubt you will need that much HCG to get your testicles working again. Try to have your draw at 7 AM in the morning, within 36 - 48 hours of your last shot - your levels should be at their highest. If you're not pleased with the results you can consult with your doc about increasing the dosage or wait for a retest. I would probably opt to retest.

 

[jinxie]

The suggested dosage on Novarell (HCG) is for infertile woman. Body builders on cycle in the past would inject 10,000/wk IM divided in three doses as part of PCT. I haven't seen any HRT docs prescribe that much as an ongoing form of therapy.

You were shut down for a very brief time. It's a good thing you switched when you did. I doubt you will need that much HCG to get your testicles working again. Try to have your draw at 7 AM in the morning, within 36 - 48 hours of your last shot - your levels should be at their highest. If you're not pleased with the results you can consult with your doc about increasing the dosage or wait for a retest. I would probably opt to retest.

Actually, the dosage range is for secondary men. Here it is, straight from Ferring:

Selected cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in males:


500 to 1,000 USP Units three times a week for three weeks, followed by the same dose twice a week for three weeks.
4,000 USP Units three times weekly for six to nine months, following which the dosage may be reduced to 2,000 USP Units three times weekly for an additional three months.

See, 4k IUs, three times per week, for nine months!

As for me, I know I will not need to go that high. I dont plan on going any higher than I am, as I am feeling better. I am not one of these types that feels compelled to chase numbers. I am looking for qualitative, not quantative, health. I already tested at the 72 hour mark, at 9 a.m. Close enough. I assume my FT is between 150 and 200, but as long as it's in the normal range, I will be fine with it. I mostly tested to manage my E2.

Take care.

 

[JanSz]

Actually, I think there is some middle ground. I was on T-cyp, 100 mgs., and hCG, 500 IUs, per week, as my initial protocol. My numbers looked good, though a little on the high end for DHT and E2. I added Adex at .25 mgs EOD, and dropped the T-cyp down to 75 mgs. After a several weeks at 75 mgs of T-cyp, I cut the T-cyp loose, and then gradually increased the hCG over the course of a month to 1500 IUs E3D (and Adex .3 mgs on shot days). I never felt any worse during the transition, relative to when I had been taking T-cyp, nor did I lose strength or weight, and am pretty certain that the hCG and the Adex were enough to keep my T levels within a healthy range. I did all this under the strong assumption that I am a strong hCG responder, like Colkurtz. After several weeks at higher hCG doses, I began feeling far better.

I'll get my first monotherapy lab results back next week, and will share the results.

Keep the faith -- mono works for some of us.

J

Ok, so now you are 1500iu E3D and 0.3mg of Adex on shot days, no testosterone.
1500*7/3=3500iu/week

Post you test results.
I think you will know your status better 3 - 4 months after you have started this routine.

Not sure how much difference it would make, but 1000iu E2D is also a 3500iu/week.

It would be nice if this particular dose would work for you, it is sort of "magical" number.

Logistically speaking;
HCG comes in 1000, 1500, 2000iu packages.
Each one can easily be manipulated into 3500iu/week between E3D and E2D schedules.
When dealing with 1500 and 1000 there is no need to worry about refigiration or waste.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Actually, the dosage range is for secondary men. Here it is, straight from Ferring:

Selected cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in males:


500 to 1,000 USP Units three times a week for three weeks, followed by the same dose twice a week for three weeks.
4,000 USP Units three times weekly for six to nine months, following which the dosage may be reduced to 2,000 USP Units three times weekly for an additional three months.

See, 4k IUs, three times per week, for nine months!

As for me, I know I will not need to go that high. I dont plan on going any higher than I am, as I am feeling better. I am not one of these types that feels compelled to chase numbers. I am looking for qualitative, not quantative, health. I already tested at the 72 hour mark, at 9 a.m. Close enough. I assume my FT is between 150 and 200, but as long as it's in the normal range, I will be fine with it. I mostly tested to manage my E2.

Take care.

Novarel has the same instructions. I wonder what happens after 9 plus months - is the patient cured?

I hope your test results are successful.

Best of luck!

 

[hebsie]

Novarel has the same instructions. I wonder what happens after 9 plus months - is the patient cured?

I hope your test results are successful.

Best of luck!

...my thoughts exactly. What are the long-term plans for you guys that are on hCG monotherapy. What are you going to do in a years time if you have to stop??

 

[joe143]

...my thoughts exactly. What are the long-term plans for you guys that are on hCG monotherapy. What are you going to do in a years time if you have to stop??

Hcg is supressive on the hpta, so you cant really stop unless you restart the hpta. I think once you either start down trt or use hcg, its pretty much for life unless you can restart your system again.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Hcg is supressive on the hpta, so you cant really stop unless you restart the hpta. I think once you either start down trt or use hcg, its pretty much for life unless you can restart your system again.

Testosterone is suppressive too. You don't do this kind of treatment if there's any chance of restarting HPTA. Choosing this treatment is a no brainer. Low testosterone is bad for your health. Possibly in the future there will be other options like gene therapy. It's amazing how many young men have this problem. The average testosterone level across all ages ranges has declined over 30% since the 1980s.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

...my thoughts exactly. What are the long-term plans for you guys that are on hCG monotherapy. What are you going to do in a years time if you have to stop??

In 2005 I was on testosterone therapy. I switched a year later to HCG. After one solid year on HCG I stopped treatment for eight months to see if if I could restart HPTA. My baseline levels returned to where they were in 2005. I came off the therapy slowly so I didn't feel a crash.

If by some remote chance I survive a nuclear holucaust, and there's no HCG to be found I know what to expect, and it's not that bad.

 

[jinxie]

Hcg is supressive on the hpta, so you cant really stop unless you restart the hpta. I think once you either start down trt or use hcg, its pretty much for life unless you can restart your system again.

Pretty much for life, if you want to remain at higher T levels. But with hCG, you keep testicular volume and you dont compromise fertility. If you are secondary, monotherapy is a NO brainer. Unfortunately, on the boards, there is a push to start T immediately. This is misguided in my opinion. hCG stimulation should be tried unless secondary is ruled out.

 

[tawney]

" If you are secondary, monotherapy is a NO brainer. Unfortunately, on the boards, there is a push to start T immediately. This is misguided in my opinion. hCG stimulation should be tried unless secondary is ruled out."

Sorry but you're wrong.

I'm glad that a couple of you have had success without the T replacement and AI... but from the 100's of testimonials I've read, most men who tried HCG alone were very dissapointed in the results and had to go with injections. Myself included.

 

[jinxie]

" If you are secondary, monotherapy is a NO brainer. Unfortunately, on the boards, there is a push to start T immediately. This is misguided in my opinion. hCG stimulation should be tried unless secondary is ruled out."

Sorry but you're wrong.

I'm glad that a couple of you have had success without the T replacement and AI... but from the 100's of testimonials I've read, most men who tried HCG alone were very dissapointed in the results and had to go with injections. Myself included.

I'm wrong? We're most of the 100s of testimonials pertaining to men who were even secondary? My guess is not. In fact I am certain of it, as the probability of that is close to NIL. Indeed, at least 1/2 the "testimonials" you will read on these boards pertain to men who are no even technically hypogonadal.

I never said everyone would have better results with hCG. I said anyone who may be secondary should rule out the issue before proceeding to Testosterone. If you did, good for you. If you didn't have good results, I would imagine there is a fair chance that you were not working with a good and patient doctor. That said, it is certainly possible that you could not get your T levels as high as you wanted them via hCG and your testicles, in which case Testestorone is necessay.

Sorry for the smart alleck remark, but I found your reply to be non constructive. I would recommend some basic logic studies, beginning with conditional ("if . . . then") statements, and then reevaluating your response to my post.

 

[hebsie]

Hcg is supressive on the hpta, so you cant really stop unless you restart the hpta. I think once you either start down trt or use hcg, its pretty much for life unless you can restart your system again.

...I understand that, but that wasn't really my question. At these 'higher than normal' doses of hCG, even the manufacturers are recommending that you start tapering down after the first six to nine months.

Can you infinitely keep going at 3500iu/week? Are you not worried about long-term Leydig cell desensitization or is that not a concern?

 

[JanSz]

" If you are secondary, monotherapy is a NO brainer. Unfortunately, on the boards, there is a push to start T immediately. This is misguided in my opinion. hCG stimulation should be tried unless secondary is ruled out."

Sorry but you're wrong.

I'm glad that a couple of you have had success without the T replacement and AI... but from the 100's of testimonials I've read, most men who tried HCG alone were very dissapointed in the results and had to go with injections. Myself included.

Tell us your story, how did you get to have low testosterone?
Are you sure that you are secondary and HCG is not working for you?

By definition you must be primary, if you can't be stimulated by using HCG.

There is noting wrong in using testosterone in that case.

There must be a grades between secondary and primary, to figure that out use hcg stimulation test.
--------------------------------
OTOH you may have done you HCG experiment wrongly.

When I was using Androgel for couple years my testis were shriveled to zero. I was not able to feel them.
When I started HCG I would do only a little bit of it.
I was doing the standard around here, the 250iu E3D.
Within a month my testis grew back and I thought that was all I will get.
Then I found a research. I described it in my post #62
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jan-s-bloodtest-3.html

I increased to 380Iu EOD
My testis grew still bigger.
As we are discussing this HCG topic I am now at 500iu EOD, and felt additional size increase and firmness.
------------------------------
My long way to tell you that testis when shut down, need a lots of time to revive and a proper HCG dose.

Possibly you still have a chance.
Possibly your test was not done right.

 

[joe143]

Testosterone is suppressive too. You don't do this kind of treatment if there's any chance of restarting HPTA. Choosing this treatment is a no brainer. Low testosterone is bad for your health. Possibly in the future there will be other options like gene therapy. It's amazing how many young men have this problem. The average testosterone level across all ages ranges has declined over 30% since the 1980s.

I agree, im 23 and have Total-t levels of 160. For some reason, i think all the new toxins, guys hormone levels are getting messed up. Im trying some restart protocols but if it dosnt work I dont mind doing T treatment for life, i just think its stupid for people to worry what if i have to go off treatment for some reason. I dont think other than a huge catostrophic event that medication will stop being available, in that case we will probably have bigger problems than feeling like **** and low sex drive.

 

[JanSz]

...I understand that, but that wasn't really my question. At these 'higher than normal' doses of hCG, even the manufacturers are recommending that you start tapering down after the first six to nine months.

Can you infinitely keep going at 3500iu/week? Are you not worried about long-term Leydig cell desensitization or is that not a concern?

On my hcg leaflet it says:
Dosage in males:
5000iu twice weekly for 12 weeks and may have continue even for 1 year to improve semen quality.
----------------------------------------------

They are concerned about fertility only.
After women conceives men is disposable.

One conclusion:
It may take up to a one year for shutdown testis to rebuild.

Second:
Long term HCG use have not been studied, (large or small dose)

Third:
After a year one is not worst of as if he newer tried.

Fourth:
There is not tham nany long term, over a year long studies.
If one can do something for a year, most likey he can do it much longer.

 

[JanSz]

I agree, im 23 and have Total-t levels of 160. For some reason, i think all the new toxins, guys hormone levels are getting messed up. Im trying some restart protocols but if it dosnt work I dont mind doing T treatment for life, i just think its stupid for people to worry what if i have to go off treatment for some reason. I dont think other than a huge catostrophic event that medication will stop being available, in that case we will probably have bigger problems than feeling like **** and low sex drive.

Why re-start?
Have you been using steroids?

If not, then most likely waste of time, but I am not an expert.

 

[joe143]

Why re-start?
Have you been using steroids?

If not, then most likely waste of time, but I am not an expert.

Just following Dr Johns protocol. I felt great on the restart, did some tests and my levels got up into the 700s, but as soon as i stopped levels came crashing down. Gotta wait to talk to the good doc and see the next move.No steroid useage.

 

[JanSz]

Just following Dr Johns protocol. I felt great on the restart, did some tests and my levels got up into the 700s, but as soon as i stopped levels came crashing down. Gotta wait to talk to the good doc and see the next move.No steroid useage.

Post on your progress.
Wish you luck.

So you must be on Clomid or Nolva.

I newer really understand this part.
Nobody I have heard on this boards, have been succesfuly restarted, weaned out and went thru life all natural without anything.

Most often the succesfull cases are transfered to HCG use.
Why not start with HCG to begin with.
If need be, use it for long time, 6 mo or a year and then see if you can wean out of it and keep your T production.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

On my hcg leaflet it says:
Dosage in males:
5000iu twice weekly for 12 weeks and may have continue even for 1 year to improve semen quality.
----------------------------------------------

They are concerned about fertility only.
After women conceives men is disposable.

One conclusion:
It may take up to a one year for shutdown testis to rebuild.

Second:
Long term HCG use have not been studied, (large or small dose)

Third:
After a year one is not worst of as if he newer tried.

Fourth:
There is not tham nany long term, over a year long studies.
If one can do something for a year, most likey he can do it much longer.

I'm going to go with your first conclusion. I was so shut down that I needed 10,000 IUs per week to get going again. It could be the reason I'm doing well on less now. The first time I tried to restart HPTA, after two months on HCG (10,000 IUs/wk) my TT was 97. Last year, after 10 weeks into my break from therapy I tested 610 for TT and 130 for free.

My doctor says he has patients who have been on HCG for 5 - 10 years. Most of them eventually add exogenous to their regimen, but they are in their late sixties or seventies. Their has to be a point where age becomes a factor.

 

[joe143]

Yeah, i mean, some people must have success, otherwise why would doctors bother with it. I felt great on it, but crashed as soon as i came off the restart. Still waiting for 1 month post labs to get in.

Post on your progress.
Wish you luck.

So you must be on Clomid or Nolva.

I newer really understand this part.
Nobody I have heard on this boards, have been succesfuly restarted, weaned out and went thru life all natural without anything.

Most often the succesfull cases are transfered to HCG use.
Why not start with HCG to begin with.
If need be, use it for long time, 6 mo or a year and then see if you can wean out of it and keep your T production.

 

[JanSz]

I'm going to go with your first conclusion. I was so shut down that I needed 10,000 IUs per week to get going again. It could be the reason I'm doing well on less now. The first time I tried to restart HPTA, after two months on HCG (10,000 IUs/wk) my TT was 97. Last year, after 10 weeks into my break from therapy I tested 610 for TT and 130 for free.

My doctor says he has patients who have been on HCG for 5 - 10 years. Most of them eventually add exogenous to their regimen, but they are in their late sixties or seventies. Their has to be a point where age becomes a factor.

""""I was so shut down that I needed 10,000 IUs per week to get going again.""""

I suspect that you (or anybody else) do not need that 10000iu, what is need is a time. Time to rebuild testis. Lots of time, minimum 3-6 months (guessing).

Well, in your case, being shutdown for long time, how long it took for you to have a TT~(800-1000) or there about?
----------------------------------------------------------
For someone (secondary) who is now on testosterone only,
whos testis are athropied now,
if he contemplates on switching to HCG only,
I think he should add HCG to his protocol, (500- 750 iu EOD)
give a time to rebuild testis,
and then attempt to increase HCG and decrease T shots,
to make transition gradual.

 

[JanSz]

Yeah, i mean, some people must have success, otherwise why would doctors bother with it. I felt great on it, but crashed as soon as i came off the restart. Still waiting for 1 month post labs to get in.

Remember there is a lots of carry over from steroid users protocols.

If you have felt great on Clomid switch to HCG and you are set.

If you have a friend in similar situation to yours, tell him to skip the Clomid stage.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

""""I was so shut down that I needed 10,000 IUs per week to get going again.""""

I suspect that you (or anybody else) do not need that 10000iu, what is need is a time. Time to rebuild testis. Lots of time, minimum 3-6 months (guessing).

Well, in your case, being shutdown for long time, how long it took for you to have a TT~(800-1000) or there about?
----------------------------------------------------------

For someone (secondary) who is now on testosterone only,
whos testis are athropied now,
if he contemplates on switching to HCG only,
I think he should add HCG to his protocol, (500- 750 iu EOD)
give a time to rebuild testis,
and then attempt to increase HCG and decrease T shots,
to make transition gradual.

After quiting testosterone, I took 10,000 IUS/wk for 8 weeks followed by a month off before my first draw - my TT came in at 97. I felt so bad the doctor had to give me a test booster. I went back on 10,000 IUs/wk, and drew two months later. My TT was over 1200 and FT over 300. I posted the results. At that point I dropped to 8,000 IU's/wk and maintaned for another 10 months. Eventually my TT exceeded 1400 and FT rose to 425.

 

[JanSz]

After quiting testosterone, I took 10,000 IUS/wk for 8 weeks followed by a month off before my first draw - my TT came in at 97. I felt so bad the doctor had to give me a test booster. I went back on 10,000 IUs/wk, and drew two months later. My TT was over 1200 and FT over 300. I posted the results. At that point I dropped to 8,000 IU's/wk and maintaned for another 10 months. Eventually my TT exceeded 1400 and FT rose to 425.

At the beginning of your HCG theraphy, your testis were totally atropied due to long time on test alone.
Describe timeline of size of your testicles after you started HCG.

I would guess, the size comes back relatively quickly, but for actual production, well, you waited 4 months.

In retrospect, when you have started HCG, you shoud have stayed on it without interuptions.
Also, I think you should not have dropped testosterone shots for another about 3 months, and then tapper it down within month or two.
Plus those huge HCG doses were (probably) redundant, 3000-4000iu/week would have done about same job, time is required to heal/revive testis.

Have you ever asked doc about, how typical is your response?
.