Newbie with some questions about progesterone
- 04-29-2008, 03:42 PM
Newbie with some questions about progesterone
First off hello everybody. 38 white male here.
I have been reading up on progesterone. Some say its good for men. Others say its not good for men. I've read in this forum that pregnenolone is the better choice. Not sure why since it converts into progesterone anyways.
Some concerns I have read about in this forum and others are the negative effects on the male body from progesterone.
That they can cause low libido and ***** tits in men. I believe that those posting are using the synthetic anabolics model and the progestins that have been proven to cause these problems.
Has any studies been done that proves that natural progesterone will also cause these problems in men if smaller(under 12 mgs) doses are used?
I have read that progesterone has both anti dht and anti estrogene capabilities. That it can reestablish a more ideal hormone ratio in both men and woman. There are also a few M.D.'s that believe this and prescribe it. The late Dr. John Lee for one. Does anyone know if that is true,and if so would that not be protective of breast growth and possibly pro-libido?
I also read that progesterone can cause breast growth in men all by it's self. Other say it has to be in the presence of elevated estrogen for that to happen.It get confusing finding accurate information. Since so much is conflicting reports.
Anyone have a take on that?
The Biosynthesis pathway of hormones charts I have viewed online are also sometimes conflicting. Some say progesterone has to convert into androstenedione then to testosterone then to estrodiol. Others charts say, androstenedion can convert directly to estrone which can convert back and forth from estrone to estradiol. Can anyone tell me does it have to go through testosterone first to convert to a estrogene or can it go from andro to estrone?
Also, if both pregnenolone and progesterone both have to androstenedion before they can convert into either a androgen or estrogen,why would the risk's be any different for side's if the dosage's are no more than recommended?
The charts I read showed that if it converts down the coristeriods pathways then it will not convert back into androgens or estrogens.
I guess I would like to have a clearer understanding as to why progesterone is considered a black dog while pregnenolone is not?
One last thing,does anyone here use progesterone and has it been successful for you. Has anyone experienced the possible bad side effect from the use of a natural progesterone?
I do hope I followed posting protocol and my grammer and spelling are acceptable.
Thank you. B
- 04-29-2008, 04:02 PM
- 04-29-2008, 04:06 PM
04-29-2008, 04:32 PM
JanSz-WOW! If you can put that into words a lay person might understand,that would be great. What is your opinion on either pregnenolone or progesterone. Which do you believe is the ideal one for a man to possibly use? And, why do you feel the other is possibly negative?
colkurtz_spf,thanks for you input. Is that a natural form or medroxyprogesterone?
Would be great if we are able to find anymore positve responders. Also would be great to find any negative ones also.
Also, still would like someone or alot of someones that could explain further.
04-30-2008, 01:05 PM
My doc has me on a compounded progesterone/dhea cream in the evening. Her thoughts are the metabolization of progesterone is much more predictable than preg. To date I have not grown femalian protruberances or ovulated even a little. I love this and other similar boards but the hardcores seem to be stuck in certain patterns. Only do pregnenelone. Only do injections. We all react differently and until I have to buy a B cup, I'll continue on with my doctors expertise, my physiological responces and blood testing at fairly frequent intervals.
04-30-2008, 03:20 PM
I have heard from one of the speaches of;
Patrick Hanaway, MD
Chief Medical Officer, Genova Diagnostics
He does not like cream delivery because of very long time to stabilize on given dose. This is about women and pregnemolone and testosterone creams.
Time to stabilization and ability to identify changes in blood 6-8 weeks.
So, the cream is not bad in itself, but it is difficult to change dose and do confirmation testing before next dose adjustment.
For that reason he uses gels.
Or, do urine testing when on creme.
It was in a context of high priced, finecky women who come to resort for couple weeks and want instant gratification.
We usually do testing at interwals of two months or more, so it should not make a big difference, (I think).
He also is not using sublingual or buccal delivery.
He needs clean, unaffected saliva, he uses
blood, urine and saliva for his testing.
I have made short notes to myself, on that, here:
04-30-2008, 04:15 PM
05-01-2008, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the responses fellows. Sorry I did not have the time to even get on the computer yesterday.
JanSz do you feel a oral is better or just the gel?
DuncanWa how long have you been using the compound? Do you know if its natural progesterone or medroxyprogesterone? What time do you apply the cream?
colkurtz_spf I guess it could be either depending on which your doc prescribed. Natural or medroxy. How long have you been taking the tablet? 25mg is higher than I read about but if its working than great. Maybe has to be a higher dosage because its oral and you lose some? What time of day do you take the pill?
From the bodybuilding boards those guys (well some of them anyways) say that progesterone causes breast growth in men.Some say only with elevated estrogens. I do believe that they are saying this because synthetic progesterone can and sometimes do cause that. From what ive gathered (and the internet in not the most honest and accurate place to gather) natural forms have not shown to cause this in men. But It probably is possible for it to do that. Maybe through to high a dosage? Maybe because a certain individuals chemistry interacts to cause that with this hormone? So far we have to guys here that have been using it with good results and not showing any negative sides. Its also nice to see that another doctor feels its a more stable hormone that is more predictable in its conversions and benefits/sides.
05-01-2008, 09:59 AM
In women, oral or gell only.
No buccal and no cream.
Buccal interferes with any planned saliva testing.
Cream does not show up in a blood for very long time, even when actually works in the body. So testing and dose changes are questionable.
05-01-2008, 10:11 AM
Thanks. And understand.I believe it has mostly been tested and followed with woman. This is probably the number one reason for peoples bias.
05-01-2008, 12:43 PM
I've been on the cream for nearly 4 months. I apply the compounded DHEA/progesterone in the PM and my doc says it should have a calming effect and help me sleep. Can't exactly say its done that but I DO take melatonin at bedtime so I sleep well most nights anyway.
As for any estrogen problems, I've been on compounded anastrozole at 50mcg per day (lower overall dose by consistently dosing at very small levels) and my E2 levels have been in the 12-15 range (Quest - <29). I have NOT grown any sweater puppets nor do I cry when I watch chick flicks nor do I obsess if my ass looks fat in certain pants...
I'm a typical 44 year old male weighing in at a healthy 205 and so far my regimen works for me....
05-01-2008, 12:55 PM
I do this tests:
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
968-2**Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS
Make sure that you satisfy this condition
Estradiol, Free(< or = 0.45) pg/mL
actually I felt ok at 0.7
05-01-2008, 02:06 PM
Thanks Duncan. I do worry about manboobs and impotence as a result of use. Im leaning to the side that natural progesterone wont do that in smaller dosages.
Ive also read that some of the doctors believe its is beneficial for the prostrate as it controls both E. and DHT. I read they recoomend that you apply it to your scrotum and or the area inbetween you sac and anus. Thats its is better absorbed into the prostrate gland.I dont know how accurate that is.
I'll have to look and see if I can find any studies about its ability to control E and DHT. If any has any they would put up that would be helpful.
Thanks for all your help.
Btw, My bloodwork done once about 3 or so years ago. The doctor said everything was fine. I didnt ask for a copy of the result. they only did one test in the morning. Not a couple during the day as some recommend. And, my total test I remember was almost 800. He said high normal range.
Of course at 40 we all want a bit of boost so we can hopefully have the raging libido that we had in our youths and no worries of any form of erectile problems.
05-01-2008, 03:30 PM
I forgot to answer one of your questions... My doc uses bioidentical hormones so we're doing natural progesterone.
I started all this with low T identified through 24hour urine test. We've been trying to find the right levels but once you change 1 variable, the others need to find their levels. We're getting dialed in a little better each time. My urine test showed "normal" E2 and low T. Once on T cream we saw my DHT climb into the 300s and E2 grow into the 50s. Started a prostate supplement and pregnenelone then switched to progesterone and my DHT is around 75 and E2 as noted has dropped. Libido, focus, energy are all coming around. Libido especially since getting off 5mg of Lexapro.
Some expect immediate changes but I seem to think (as does my doc) it takes your body awhile to truly adjust to what you're putting into it. We'll tinker around if needed about every 6 weeks but like I said, I think we're getting ME dialed in based on how I'm feeling and my blood work although we go more by how I feel.
Good luck and hope your chesticles don't lactate.
05-01-2008, 03:32 PM
05-01-2008, 04:52 PM
05-02-2008, 03:19 PM
Hey fellows thank you all. It doesnt appear anyone else can or wants to add to this topic so unless anyone has anything more to offer,it is fine to let this topic end. I truely appreciate the responces.
02-18-2009, 07:55 AM
02-18-2009, 10:19 AM
Last year I tried some compounded prog cream for sleep, and got mild gyno (nipple) which seems to be permanent. There are prog receptors in male breast tissue. Labwork showed prog above range. Now I use preg cream to complement my hcg therapy.
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