Saw Palmetto - Losing Mass

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?
    certainly looks like it. get some nettle root and see what happens...proviron would work too...

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    Eh, Nettle Root is another DHT inhibitor... if anything I need more DHT, not less of it. How would this help increase Free T?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?
    If you are low on carb diet and high fiber that could be reason why your shbg is so low or even low gh can affect it. More so insulin production .
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80 View Post
    I'm taking 4 of the same brand. Wonder if you and I go to the same Sam's? (I live in south Looziana.)
    If there's a Wal-mart next door then it's probably the same one.
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    from reading the whole thread

    I agree 100% with SOLARIS.
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    s also known to increase 5AR activity (at least in rat studies) in the prostate, something Saw Palmetto inhibited
    Yeah, that's what SP is suppose to do though. Why were you takin it in the first? Was it fear of prostate issues or were you subbing it for loss of hair?
    I havent really read anything with strong evidence of reducing DHT in the scalp, but in the prostate, i've read many articles about it. I've used Sp since I was about 25, quit when i turned 30...I've never really had any ill-effects other than bad gas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)
    ?
    i wonder why your E2 and estriol are so low...were you using anything else at the time? this could also be part of the low libido situation, as ideal E2 is pretty critical to that.

    DHT is spot-on, so it doesnt look like the SP had a really large effect, at least on serum levels (i have also read that it has a preference for prostate tissue more than anything else)

    the high SHBG is peculiar though. it's certainly binding up the free T...i wonder what the cause is. are you having any progesterone-related sides or using anything progestagenic?

    this might be an adrenal thing too...i dunno. i bet the HRT guys would, though, but i'd use another website for guidance; the HRT forum here is pretty fascist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Yeah, that's what SP is suppose to do though. Why were you takin it in the first? Was it fear of prostate issues or were you subbing it for loss of hair?
    I havent really read anything with strong evidence of reducing DHT in the scalp, but in the prostate, i've read many articles about it. I've used Sp since I was about 25, quit when i turned 30...I've never really had any ill-effects other than bad gas.
    Yeah, started using it because hair was starting to thin and I freaked out... stayed away from Fin because of the side effects/horror stories (had a script but did not fill it!) but did not realize I was taking such a high dosage of SP (320mg extract)... was looking for 500mg but had no idea that SP came in a powder AND extract form. Thought what I was taking was less than the 500mg I was orignially looking for (as label said 320mg), thought it was a placebo if anything as many have mentioned it's useless for hair to begin with. I was obviously wrong but it was a human error on my part - this was not intentional. Had I known I was taking such a high dosage I obviously would not have bought it nor used it... it's a shame the labeling on these products is so poor (ie - not stating the equivalency of the extract version to the powder version). This could have been averted and I tremendously regret touching this stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Yeah, started using it because hair was starting to thin and I freaked out... stayed away from Fin because of the side effects/horror stories (had a script but did not fill it!) but did not realize I was taking such a high dosage of SP (320mg extract)... was looking for 500mg but had no idea that SP came in a powder AND extract form. Thought what I was taking was less than the 500mg I was orignially looking for (as label said 320mg), thought it was a placebo if anything as many have mentioned it's useless for hair to begin with. I was obviously wrong but it was a human error on my part - this was not intentional. Had I known I was taking such a high dosage I obviously would not have bought it nor used it... it's a shame the labeling on these products is so poor (ie - not stating the equivalency of the extract version to the powder version). This could have been averted and I tremendously regret touching this stuff.
    Sounds to me like you should look into your nutritional basis, and your automic nervous system imbalances as well as your adrenals , thyroid, Pm me and I will explain in details
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    i wonder why your E2 and estriol are so low...were you using anything else at the time? this could also be part of the low libido situation, as ideal E2 is pretty critical to that.

    DHT is spot-on, so it doesnt look like the SP had a really large effect, at least on serum levels (i have also read that it has a preference for prostate tissue more than anything else)

    the high SHBG is peculiar though. it's certainly binding up the free T...i wonder what the cause is. are you having any progesterone-related sides or using anything progestagenic?

    this might be an adrenal thing too...i dunno. i bet the HRT guys would, though, but i'd use another website for guidance; the HRT forum here is pretty fascist.
    Would my low estrogens be causing any of these problems? I get erections at night but morningwood is still not present as well as spontaneous erections during the day and libido is still non-existent. A few weeks after stopping SP I did the Broccoli treatment for a couple days since I was freaked out but it may have made my problems worse, though I highly doubt broccoli water would have further hurt me, it might have even helped? My estrogens had to have been somewhat higher on SP as I did have larger nipples - they're back to normal size and no signs of gyno. Maybe I brought them too low? I know that all that extra test from SP aromatizes to estrogen and that's not a good thing. Again, estrogen results:

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)

    Estrogens on the low-end are just as bad as being in the high-end, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Would my low estrogens be causing any of these problems? I get erections at night but morningwood is still not present as well as spontaneous erections during the day and libido is still non-existent. A few weeks after stopping SP I did the Broccoli treatment for a couple days since I was freaked out but it may have made my problems worse, though I highly doubt broccoli water would have further hurt me, it might have even helped? My estrogens had to have been somewhat higher on SP as I did have larger nipples - they're back to normal size and no signs of gyno. Maybe I brought them too low? I know that all that extra test from SP aromatizes to estrogen and that's not a good thing. Again, estrogen results:

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)

    Estrogens on the low-end are just as bad as being in the high-end, right?
    Yes, definitely. How are you feeling with the ocytocin and seligiline that Shippen prescribed? Any improvement? Did he say anything about your high SHBG and low free T?
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    I honestly haven't noticed much change - I ran out of Oxytocin and need to get a refill. I just had a phone consult with him and he prescribed small-dosed Ritalin (for libido) and Testosterone drops so will get those fillied in the next few days. Said to use them 2-3 hours before sex, gym, if I'm feeling fatigued, etc and see if that helps. He showed me the chart about SHBG and Free T but said I was OK in that dept.

    What a mess I got myself into, albeit by mistake - but why should it cost me my health? I try not to beat myself up over this but it's like living in a body that isn't mine. I was perfectly healthy prior to this disaster and I've never been so down in my entire life when just a few months ago I was in tip-top form. I've made some improvements since the crash but I'm far from what I was (at least in my mind).

    Amazingly I can still lift the same amount of weights and even maxed out on the bench last week - 235lbs and I weigh 165lbs (I'm 6"1" btw). Still, the muscle wastage/decrease is depressing (I've never seen my wrists so skinny/small) but hopefully I can maintain the same strength. Shirts just don't fit me the same way they used to but I'm not in bad shape by any means - I still have energy to goto the gym and have little body fat - but my chest/arms/calves used to be a lot bigger. High cortisol could be the culprit in terms of gains but who knows.

    My appetite has decreased significantly - I used to be starving after the gym and now I feel like my stomach has shrunk and a Lean Cuisinewill will fill me up. I used to have a ravenous appetitie and a high metabolism, so I probably had a higher calorie intake compared to now. I'm on Wellbutrin and that's been known to supress appetite, but I'm just not the human garbage disposal I used to be. Sleep isn't the same either. Heck, I'll be happy if I'm back to even 80% of my old self.
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    Results from 5/9/08:

    Bloodwork:
    Progesterone .50 (<1.4 ngML)
    T4 Free 1.25 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
    TSH 0.84 (0.40-4.50 uIU/mL)
    T3 Total 119 (60-181 ng/DL)
    DHEA Sulfate 212 (110-510mcg/dL)
    Cortisol (AM) 1.0L (4.0-22.0 mcg/dL)*
    ACTH Plasma <5L (7-50 pg/mL)*

    * = After Dexamethasone Suppression Test, hence the low reading (which is good)

    Salivary Cortisol: 0.70 [Not sure which vile out of the three this is referring to or if this is an average, took at 3 different times]
    Reference Range:
    8-10AM 0.04-0.56
    4-6PM < OR = 0.15
    10-11PM < OR = 0.09

    Adrenal MRI = OK, no problem found
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    I honestly haven't noticed much change - I ran out of Oxytocin and need to get a refill. I just had a phone consult with him and he prescribed small-dosed Ritalin (for libido) and Testosterone drops so will get those fillied in the next few days. Said to use them 2-3 hours before sex, gym, if I'm feeling fatigued, etc and see if that helps. He showed me the chart about SHBG and Free T but said I was OK in that dept.

    What a mess I got myself into, albeit by mistake - but why should it cost me my health? I try not to beat myself up over this but it's like living in a body that isn't mine. I was perfectly healthy prior to this disaster and I've never been so down in my entire life when just a few months ago I was in tip-top form. I've made some improvements since the crash but I'm far from what I was (at least in my mind).

    Amazingly I can still lift the same amount of weights and even maxed out on the bench last week - 235lbs and I weigh 165lbs (I'm 6"1" btw). Still, the muscle wastage/decrease is depressing (I've never seen my wrists so skinny/small) but hopefully I can maintain the same strength. Shirts just don't fit me the same way they used to but I'm not in bad shape by any means - I still have energy to goto the gym and have little body fat - but my chest/arms/calves used to be a lot bigger. High cortisol could be the culprit in terms of gains but who knows.

    My appetite has decreased significantly - I used to be starving after the gym and now I feel like my stomach has shrunk and a Lean Cuisinewill will fill me up. I used to have a ravenous appetitie and a high metabolism, so I probably had a higher calorie intake compared to now. I'm on Wellbutrin and that's been known to supress appetite, but I'm just not the human garbage disposal I used to be. Sleep isn't the same either. Heck, I'll be happy if I'm back to even 80% of my old self.
    How about your butt,thighs and legs, Did you lose msucle/wastage in that area?
    I have lost a lot of muscle in this area too. My oants and shirts wont fit me.
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    On this thread
    your post #2
    Here are my labs: 2/15/08

    DHEA 187 ng/DL (180-1250)
    DHEA Sulfate 356 mcg/dL (110-510)
    Prolactin, Serum 4.8 ng/dl (2.0-18.0)
    LH, Serum 1.9 mIU/mL (1.5-9.3)
    FSH, Serum 1.2 mIU/mL (1.6-8.0)
    Cortisol (AM) 19.9 mog/dL (4.0-22.0)
    T4 Free 1.18 ng/dL (0.8 1.8)
    TSH 0.93 mIU/L (0.40 4.50)
    Estradiol 32 pg/ML (13 54)
    Testosterone Total 419 ng/dL (250-1100)
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    DHT 43 (25-75 ng/dL)
    ============================== ================


    Post #26
    urine test BEFORE Clomid: (All ranges in ug)
    Testosterone 84 (45 - 85)

    Blood Test AFTER Clomid:

    Testosterone 575 ng/dl (241 - 827)
    LH 5.0 mIU/mL (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH 1.9 (1.6 - 8.0)
    ============================== ================

    #1 your have excellent care under dr Shippen
    --------------------------------

    What I would try if I found myself in your predicament.
    I am not a doctor.

    Drop each and every medication and supplements.
    Saw Palmetto, seleginine, oxytocin, whatewer else that you are taking.

    Get Adrenals and thyroid thoroughly checked.
    Best using these tests:

    Adrenocortex Stress Profile
    Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventative Medicine - Genova Diagnostics

    Comprehensive Thyroid Assessment
    Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventative Medicine - Genova Diagnostics

    Assuming that you did not took ant external testosterone,
    so your testis are still in natural state,

    do HCG challenge test,
    to see what your testis are able to produce.

    then asses if you are able to increase your testosterone production natural way (with help of HCG) or that you will have to combine (HCG + T shots)
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Other than lowish TotalTestosterone you have high SHBG.

    Thanks for a clean chart,
    I marked it with your present (SHBG=40) needs for TT(green)
    TT(800-1500)
    and
    what would you need if you lower your SHBG=26
    TT(650-1100)
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    High SHBG indicate some metabolic inbalances.
    You can get a rather good help in this area if you would do this test:

    NutrEval
    Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventative Medicine - Genova Diagnostics

    In results of this test you would receive list of supplements, names and daily dose.
    Those will be the supplements that you are actualy missing.

    Good luck

    ============================== ===============
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    How about your butt,thighs and legs, Did you lose msucle/wastage in that area?
    I have lost a lot of muscle in this area too. My oants and shirts wont fit me.
    Yeah I lost muscle in my calves, arms, hands, fingers, allover... wrists are as skinny as I've ever seen them... I used to be a 34 waist and can barely fit in a 33. The depression from all of this is just too much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Yeah I lost muscle in my calves, arms, hands, fingers, allover... wrists are as skinny as I've ever seen them... I used to be a 34 waist and can barely fit in a 33. The depression from all of this is just too much.
    Low testosterone = depression
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Low testosterone = depression
    But he dont have that much low testosterone (419)
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    That's low for his age.
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    Yeah, but I had 428 BEFORE Saw Palmetto... it was naturally low to begin with but I was able to sexually function OK, sleep well, have morning/spontaneous erections, build muscle, have energy, etc. Some people are able to function fine at this level even though it may seem low to others.

    Prior to SP, I had low libido (which I blame on long-term AD use - see PSSD, Paxil is a sex-drive killer) and depression (from hair loss and a breakup), but the low test could've attributed to both of these factors as well. I was never horny while on Paxil and even when I came off of it my libido just wasn't what it used to be (but at least some existed compared to now).

    It has been theorized that long-term AD use can lower one's Testoserone levels, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Yeah, but I had 428 BEFORE Saw Palmetto... it was naturally low to begin with but I was able to sexually function OK, sleep well, have morning/spontaneous erections, build muscle, have energy, etc. Some people are able to function fine at this level even though it may seem low to others.

    Prior to SP, I had low libido (which I blame on long-term AD use - see PSSD, Paxil is a sex-drive killer) and depression (from hair loss and a breakup), but the low test could've attributed to both of these factors as well. I was never horny while on Paxil and even when I came off of it my libido just wasn't what it used to be (but at least some existed compared to now).

    It has been theorized that long-term AD use can lower one's Testoserone levels, right?
    Before you may have had different SHBG, much lower.
    Now you have it very high.
    I have edited the chart, on post #56 this thread, to address what I will say now.

    What counts is
    BAT -- BioAvailableTestosterone.
    second choice
    FreeT -- Free Testosterone

    Now you have
    SHBG=40 high
    FreeT= 80 very small

    Previously you may have had
    SHBG=20 or even less
    that would have given you
    FreeT=115 big difference

    ============================== ===========
    Biggest bang for the $$$ you will get if you do the
    NutrEval
    test that I mentioned.
    It would clarify many of your inbalances.
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    How would I go about ordering these tests? What is the cost? Don't you need a doctor to order them or do you just call them up and order them yourself?

    Would a lack of Free T cause some of these symptoms?

    I've read Danazol lowers SHBG thereby freeing up Free T, could be something to look into.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    How would I go about ordering these tests? What is the cost? Don't you need a doctor to order them or do you just call them up and order them yourself?

    Would a lack of Free T cause some of these symptoms?

    I've read Danazol lowers SHBG thereby freeing up Free T, could be something to look into.
    Of course FreeT is THE reason.
    Actually it is BAT, BioAvailableTestosterone.

    SHBG is an indicator of your overall health.
    If you attack SHBG directly, you may not find out other problems that you have.

    Those tests have to be ordered by a health provider that have account at Genova Daignostics.

    You can get list of names by e-mail if you contact them.

    Diagnostic Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventative Medicine - Genova Diagnostics

    Contact Us - Diagnostic Laboratory Testing - Genova Diagnostics
    Contact Client Services - Genova Diagnostics

    If there is a choice, personally I would give a preference to an ostheopath or MD who also deals with TRT, but that is just convenience.

    -------
    Genova is very adamant about getting insurance coverage if possible.
    They file them selves for some insurance companies.
    They give a doctor vey specific instructions about ICD-9 coding, so there is high likelyhood of getting paid.

    This is my experience. I did number of those tests, my out of pocket costs are under $50.

    You can look at my test reports on this thread:

    JanSz-Metabolic Analysis and Cellular Energy

    It is a learning exprience for me.
    So I did not started with tests that I am suggesting for you, but my tests are within NutrEval set of tests.

    If it mean anything, I have at home kits for NutrEval and Thyroid tests. Have appointment to do them in less than 2 weeks.
    ============================== =======

    I see your posts on dr John bb.
    **************.com

    **************.com

    http://www.matrix nutrition and fitness.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13184#post131 84

    Per his adamant request, I am not allowed to talk about Genova Diagnostics on his site.
    Thought that you may want to know about it.
    .

    As you see, even here I am not able to spell his name, it gets all astericked

    All I know is that Genova raised my pines to action, so it is on good side in my book.

    I wish you well.
    .
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    So???

    What happened?

    Are you ok now
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    I have been suffering from this for almost a decade now. We are suffering from 5ar syndrome. The only hope is the Post Finasteride Foundation as doctors have no clue...
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