Saw Palmetto - Losing Mass

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  1. Well my appointment with Dr. Shippen was yesterday and let me tell you, he is a hell of a doctor and I was extremely impressed by his vast knowledge of the human body. He was very glad to hear I avoided Propecia and felt that Saw Palmetto, despite the high amounts I took, is still less nasty of a drug than Finasteride. He's never heard of a "Saw Palmetto case" and told me people use it all the time and it is widely available. He stated that, according to my urine analysis and blood tests, that my hormones are in normal range while guys on Propecia that come and see him have hormones that are way out of wack and difficult to treat.

    He feels that because my hormones are OK that I should return to normal. When? I don't know, but he was strongly against the notion that I have caused permanent damage to my body and will be a Propecia case even though I somewhat feel the opposite right now (penile tissue changes, ED, eye floaters, testicle discomfort, etc). I drove home without having a panic attack for the first time in awhile since one of the most knowledgeable doctors who has treated other Finasteride patients and aware of this problem told me that I will be OK. I really hope he's right. I'm going to try to be positive and optimistic.

    He felt my problems were more in the brain sector so to speak. He prescribed Selegiline, which is a transdermal gel used primarily for Parkinson patients, and Oxytocin. Oxytocin increases the feeling of orgasm and, based on my own research, is also known to increase 5AR activity (at least in rat studies) in the prostate, something Saw Palmetto inhibited. I'll be receiving these prescriptions shortly and will see if I have any improvement. After six weeks time, I'll have a phone consultation with Dr. Shippen and update him on my status and then go from there.

    The last two months have been a complete nightmare/rollercoaster for me - just look at my DHEA levels for crying out loud (Shippen said that was due to the overwhelming stress I was going through). Anyway, any input is much appreciated.

    I've attached my urine results (before Clomid test) and bloodtests (after Clomid test) below.

    Here is my 24-hour urine test BEFORE Clomid: (All ranges in ug)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    Testosterone 84 (45 - 85)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)
    Androstanediol 73 (48 - 578)
    Androstenedione 97 (0 - 50) = HIGH
    DHEA 7821 (5 - 1476) = REALLY HIGH (Shippen said due to stress)
    Androstenetriol 423 (42 - 710)
    Androsterone 1912 (798 - 4705)
    11b-OH Androsterone 1213 (461 - 1692)
    Etiocholanolone 2324 (689 - 3252)
    11b-OH Etiocholanolone 114 (134 - 1186) = LOW
    Pregenanediol 135 (32 - 501)
    5-Pregnenetriol 715 (28-1062)
    Cotristone 287 (92 - 366)
    THE 4470 (1365 - 5788)
    THB 157 (32 - 238)
    5a-THB 456 (135 - 588)
    THA 174 (52 - 277)
    Cortisol 189 (35 - 168) = HIGH
    THF 2677 (942 - 2800)
    5a-THF 1510 (796 - 2456)

    Blood Test AFTER Clomid:

    Testosterone 575 ng/dl (241 - 827)
    LH 5.0 mIU/mL (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH 1.9 (1.6 - 8.0)


  2. i'm no doctor, but a casual observer would conclude that you have anxiety disorder and possibly some manic/depressive tendencies. i'd personally go see a different kind of doc.
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  3. Good for you


    I'm glad you had a productive visit w/ your doc. I believe that being positive and taking it one day at a time will prove to be your best bet. I actually do take finasteride (proscar divided into fourths) and often times I wonder if the side effects are worth the benefit. Besides an occasional mild loss of libido (especially when I'm sauced), I have a hard time putting on muscle and staying lean. I can't not be "flubby". I always have clear, soft, supple skin, LOL I have been taking fin since I was 18 and I am now almost 26 so I think my body has gotten use to it (homeostasis). Once I get hitched, I am ditching the fin and rocking out Bruce Willis style fosho! Good luck man, I appreciate everything that you do for our country when you are overseas

  4. Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    i'm no doctor, but a casual observer would conclude that you have anxiety disorder and possibly some manic/depressive tendencies. i'd personally go see a different kind of doc.
    Well... I have anxiety over the fact that I'm suffering from a slew of persisting side effects that weren't there before taking Saw Palmetto. Anxiety over hair loss did get me into this mess I will admit, but taking potshots like that is pretty unnecessary - try to stay on topic please.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Well... I have anxiety over the fact that I'm suffering from a slew of persisting side effects that weren't there before taking Saw Palmetto. Anxiety over hair loss did get me into this mess I will admit, but taking potshots like that is pretty unnecessary - try to stay on topic please.
    that's just it, i AM trying to stay on-topic here, and it really looks like there is more to this topic than some mild hormonal fluctuations. when the panicking cranks your DHEA and cortisol up that high without any real physical impetus, this becomes an obviously psychosomatic situation. you obviously have some intelligence - i recommend using it to assess your situation honestly.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    that's just it, i AM trying to stay on-topic here, and it really looks like there is more to this topic than some mild hormonal fluctuations. when the panicking cranks your DHEA and cortisol up that high without any real physical impetus, this becomes an obviously psychosomatic situation. you obviously have some intelligence - i recommend using it to assess your situation honestly.
    Understandable, but I cannot make up the penile tissue changes, eye floaters, and low ejaculate volume in my head. There IS a physical problem here, but I understand my panicking is doing more harm than good. It's just been a very traumatizing experience for a guy my age when I'm in the prime of my life.

  7. I've been taking 2- 160mg gel-caps of SP I picked up at Sam's club. I've been taking them for a month or so. I haven't really seen any reaction other than maybe I pee a little harder.
    I'd also kindly suggest getting to the bottom of all that worrying. Being stressed out all the time can bring on so many health issues.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Understandable, but I cannot make up the penile tissue changes, eye floaters, and low ejaculate volume in my head. There IS a physical problem here, but I understand my panicking is doing more harm than good. It's just been a very traumatizing experience for a guy my age when I'm in the prime of my life.
    look, reduced DHT can cause a reduction in libido, seminal volume and a number of other dimensions of "manhood"....i've used finasteride and sawP and i know it first-hand....but it always comes back once you take the necessary steps to recovery (HCG, clomid, time, whatever)

    your life isnt over. try to be pragmatic about it and do what needs to be done to get back to where you think you should be. worrying never got anybody anywhere.

  9. I will say that I was making out with a girl last night and got hard (definitely had some libido, but looking at porn doesn't do much like it used to), I even woke up with morningwood for the first time since this debacle. I'm wondering if some of this IS psychosomatic - the numbness is still a problem though as well as the tissue changes. Any improvement is good news though - I was worried if I couldn't get it up.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    I will say that I was making out with a girl last night and got hard (definitely had some libido, but looking at porn doesn't do much like it used to), I even woke up with morningwood for the first time since this debacle. I'm wondering if some of this IS psychosomatic - the numbness is still a problem though as well as the tissue changes. Any improvement is good news though - I was worried if I couldn't get it up.
    sounds like you'll be just fine...good luck bro.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Shootist View Post
    I've been taking 2- 320mg gel-caps of SP I picked up at Sam's club. I've been taking them for a month or so. I haven't really seen any reaction other than maybe I pee a little harder.
    I'd also kindly suggest getting to the bottom of all that worrying. Being stressed out all the time can bring on so many health issues.
    I'm taking 4 of the same brand. Wonder if you and I go to the same Sam's? (I live in south Looziana.)

  12. I use VitaminShoppe brand saw palmetto extract and currently take 320mg every day. I only use it to prevent prostate issues, although as you mentioned there may not be sufficient clinical studies to prove it works.

    I have not had any issues, however I'm going to stop taking it today and see if I notice a difference.

  13. All I know is that I had testicle pain and a greasy forehead while on it and decided it was best to stop since it wasn't healthy, at least for me... everything went downhill AFTER I stopped, that's what doesn't make sense. It's like my body crashed and I have no idea why.

  14. saw palmento can make one act like an estrogen in some people and can make them appear estrogen domaint even though e2 is incheck. I stopped saw and i gained a mess load of weight and hard nesss so. For some people it may intefer with increasing free e2 because of lowering DHT levels.

  15. Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?
    certainly looks like it. get some nettle root and see what happens...proviron would work too...

  17. Eh, Nettle Root is another DHT inhibitor... if anything I need more DHT, not less of it. How would this help increase Free T?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?
    If you are low on carb diet and high fiber that could be reason why your shbg is so low or even low gh can affect it. More so insulin production .

  19. Quote Originally Posted by jmh80 View Post
    I'm taking 4 of the same brand. Wonder if you and I go to the same Sam's? (I live in south Looziana.)
    If there's a Wal-mart next door then it's probably the same one.

  20. from reading the whole thread

    I agree 100% with SOLARIS.

  21. s also known to increase 5AR activity (at least in rat studies) in the prostate, something Saw Palmetto inhibited
    Yeah, that's what SP is suppose to do though. Why were you takin it in the first? Was it fear of prostate issues or were you subbing it for loss of hair?
    I havent really read anything with strong evidence of reducing DHT in the scalp, but in the prostate, i've read many articles about it. I've used Sp since I was about 25, quit when i turned 30...I've never really had any ill-effects other than bad gas.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)
    ?
    i wonder why your E2 and estriol are so low...were you using anything else at the time? this could also be part of the low libido situation, as ideal E2 is pretty critical to that.

    DHT is spot-on, so it doesnt look like the SP had a really large effect, at least on serum levels (i have also read that it has a preference for prostate tissue more than anything else)

    the high SHBG is peculiar though. it's certainly binding up the free T...i wonder what the cause is. are you having any progesterone-related sides or using anything progestagenic?

    this might be an adrenal thing too...i dunno. i bet the HRT guys would, though, but i'd use another website for guidance; the HRT forum here is pretty fascist.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Yeah, that's what SP is suppose to do though. Why were you takin it in the first? Was it fear of prostate issues or were you subbing it for loss of hair?
    I havent really read anything with strong evidence of reducing DHT in the scalp, but in the prostate, i've read many articles about it. I've used Sp since I was about 25, quit when i turned 30...I've never really had any ill-effects other than bad gas.
    Yeah, started using it because hair was starting to thin and I freaked out... stayed away from Fin because of the side effects/horror stories (had a script but did not fill it!) but did not realize I was taking such a high dosage of SP (320mg extract)... was looking for 500mg but had no idea that SP came in a powder AND extract form. Thought what I was taking was less than the 500mg I was orignially looking for (as label said 320mg), thought it was a placebo if anything as many have mentioned it's useless for hair to begin with. I was obviously wrong but it was a human error on my part - this was not intentional. Had I known I was taking such a high dosage I obviously would not have bought it nor used it... it's a shame the labeling on these products is so poor (ie - not stating the equivalency of the extract version to the powder version). This could have been averted and I tremendously regret touching this stuff.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Yeah, started using it because hair was starting to thin and I freaked out... stayed away from Fin because of the side effects/horror stories (had a script but did not fill it!) but did not realize I was taking such a high dosage of SP (320mg extract)... was looking for 500mg but had no idea that SP came in a powder AND extract form. Thought what I was taking was less than the 500mg I was orignially looking for (as label said 320mg), thought it was a placebo if anything as many have mentioned it's useless for hair to begin with. I was obviously wrong but it was a human error on my part - this was not intentional. Had I known I was taking such a high dosage I obviously would not have bought it nor used it... it's a shame the labeling on these products is so poor (ie - not stating the equivalency of the extract version to the powder version). This could have been averted and I tremendously regret touching this stuff.
    Sounds to me like you should look into your nutritional basis, and your automic nervous system imbalances as well as your adrenals , thyroid, Pm me and I will explain in details

  25. Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    i wonder why your E2 and estriol are so low...were you using anything else at the time? this could also be part of the low libido situation, as ideal E2 is pretty critical to that.

    DHT is spot-on, so it doesnt look like the SP had a really large effect, at least on serum levels (i have also read that it has a preference for prostate tissue more than anything else)

    the high SHBG is peculiar though. it's certainly binding up the free T...i wonder what the cause is. are you having any progesterone-related sides or using anything progestagenic?

    this might be an adrenal thing too...i dunno. i bet the HRT guys would, though, but i'd use another website for guidance; the HRT forum here is pretty fascist.
    Would my low estrogens be causing any of these problems? I get erections at night but morningwood is still not present as well as spontaneous erections during the day and libido is still non-existent. A few weeks after stopping SP I did the Broccoli treatment for a couple days since I was freaked out but it may have made my problems worse, though I highly doubt broccoli water would have further hurt me, it might have even helped? My estrogens had to have been somewhat higher on SP as I did have larger nipples - they're back to normal size and no signs of gyno. Maybe I brought them too low? I know that all that extra test from SP aromatizes to estrogen and that's not a good thing. Again, estrogen results:

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)

    Estrogens on the low-end are just as bad as being in the high-end, right?
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