Saw Palmetto - Losing Mass

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    that's just it, i AM trying to stay on-topic here, and it really looks like there is more to this topic than some mild hormonal fluctuations. when the panicking cranks your DHEA and cortisol up that high without any real physical impetus, this becomes an obviously psychosomatic situation. you obviously have some intelligence - i recommend using it to assess your situation honestly.
    Understandable, but I cannot make up the penile tissue changes, eye floaters, and low ejaculate volume in my head. There IS a physical problem here, but I understand my panicking is doing more harm than good. It's just been a very traumatizing experience for a guy my age when I'm in the prime of my life.


  2. I've been taking 2- 160mg gel-caps of SP I picked up at Sam's club. I've been taking them for a month or so. I haven't really seen any reaction other than maybe I pee a little harder.
    I'd also kindly suggest getting to the bottom of all that worrying. Being stressed out all the time can bring on so many health issues.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Understandable, but I cannot make up the penile tissue changes, eye floaters, and low ejaculate volume in my head. There IS a physical problem here, but I understand my panicking is doing more harm than good. It's just been a very traumatizing experience for a guy my age when I'm in the prime of my life.
    look, reduced DHT can cause a reduction in libido, seminal volume and a number of other dimensions of "manhood"....i've used finasteride and sawP and i know it first-hand....but it always comes back once you take the necessary steps to recovery (HCG, clomid, time, whatever)

    your life isnt over. try to be pragmatic about it and do what needs to be done to get back to where you think you should be. worrying never got anybody anywhere.

  4. I will say that I was making out with a girl last night and got hard (definitely had some libido, but looking at porn doesn't do much like it used to), I even woke up with morningwood for the first time since this debacle. I'm wondering if some of this IS psychosomatic - the numbness is still a problem though as well as the tissue changes. Any improvement is good news though - I was worried if I couldn't get it up.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    I will say that I was making out with a girl last night and got hard (definitely had some libido, but looking at porn doesn't do much like it used to), I even woke up with morningwood for the first time since this debacle. I'm wondering if some of this IS psychosomatic - the numbness is still a problem though as well as the tissue changes. Any improvement is good news though - I was worried if I couldn't get it up.
    sounds like you'll be just fine...good luck bro.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Shootist View Post
    I've been taking 2- 320mg gel-caps of SP I picked up at Sam's club. I've been taking them for a month or so. I haven't really seen any reaction other than maybe I pee a little harder.
    I'd also kindly suggest getting to the bottom of all that worrying. Being stressed out all the time can bring on so many health issues.
    I'm taking 4 of the same brand. Wonder if you and I go to the same Sam's? (I live in south Looziana.)

  7. I use VitaminShoppe brand saw palmetto extract and currently take 320mg every day. I only use it to prevent prostate issues, although as you mentioned there may not be sufficient clinical studies to prove it works.

    I have not had any issues, however I'm going to stop taking it today and see if I notice a difference.

  8. All I know is that I had testicle pain and a greasy forehead while on it and decided it was best to stop since it wasn't healthy, at least for me... everything went downhill AFTER I stopped, that's what doesn't make sense. It's like my body crashed and I have no idea why.

  9. saw palmento can make one act like an estrogen in some people and can make them appear estrogen domaint even though e2 is incheck. I stopped saw and i gained a mess load of weight and hard nesss so. For some people it may intefer with increasing free e2 because of lowering DHT levels.

  10. Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?
    certainly looks like it. get some nettle root and see what happens...proviron would work too...

  12. Eh, Nettle Root is another DHT inhibitor... if anything I need more DHT, not less of it. How would this help increase Free T?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)

    Now Take a look at this Nomogram for Calculating Free Testosterone from Total Testosterone (TT) and Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin (SHBG)

    Is the high SHBG limiting my Free T availability?
    If you are low on carb diet and high fiber that could be reason why your shbg is so low or even low gh can affect it. More so insulin production .

  14. Quote Originally Posted by jmh80 View Post
    I'm taking 4 of the same brand. Wonder if you and I go to the same Sam's? (I live in south Looziana.)
    If there's a Wal-mart next door then it's probably the same one.

  15. from reading the whole thread

    I agree 100% with SOLARIS.

  16. s also known to increase 5AR activity (at least in rat studies) in the prostate, something Saw Palmetto inhibited
    Yeah, that's what SP is suppose to do though. Why were you takin it in the first? Was it fear of prostate issues or were you subbing it for loss of hair?
    I havent really read anything with strong evidence of reducing DHT in the scalp, but in the prostate, i've read many articles about it. I've used Sp since I was about 25, quit when i turned 30...I've never really had any ill-effects other than bad gas.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm ok in the Estrogen department (No gyno, etc)

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)
    DHT 6.6 (0 - 13)

    I'm more concerned about the fact that I haven't been making any gains lately at the gym - the loss of muscle mass is perplexing.... wonder what supplements would help me correct this. I just take a protein shake after a workout.

    Take a look at this though:
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    Free T is 56.6 pg/mL (35.0 -155.0)
    Testosterone % Free 1.35% (1.50-2.20)
    ?
    i wonder why your E2 and estriol are so low...were you using anything else at the time? this could also be part of the low libido situation, as ideal E2 is pretty critical to that.

    DHT is spot-on, so it doesnt look like the SP had a really large effect, at least on serum levels (i have also read that it has a preference for prostate tissue more than anything else)

    the high SHBG is peculiar though. it's certainly binding up the free T...i wonder what the cause is. are you having any progesterone-related sides or using anything progestagenic?

    this might be an adrenal thing too...i dunno. i bet the HRT guys would, though, but i'd use another website for guidance; the HRT forum here is pretty fascist.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Yeah, that's what SP is suppose to do though. Why were you takin it in the first? Was it fear of prostate issues or were you subbing it for loss of hair?
    I havent really read anything with strong evidence of reducing DHT in the scalp, but in the prostate, i've read many articles about it. I've used Sp since I was about 25, quit when i turned 30...I've never really had any ill-effects other than bad gas.
    Yeah, started using it because hair was starting to thin and I freaked out... stayed away from Fin because of the side effects/horror stories (had a script but did not fill it!) but did not realize I was taking such a high dosage of SP (320mg extract)... was looking for 500mg but had no idea that SP came in a powder AND extract form. Thought what I was taking was less than the 500mg I was orignially looking for (as label said 320mg), thought it was a placebo if anything as many have mentioned it's useless for hair to begin with. I was obviously wrong but it was a human error on my part - this was not intentional. Had I known I was taking such a high dosage I obviously would not have bought it nor used it... it's a shame the labeling on these products is so poor (ie - not stating the equivalency of the extract version to the powder version). This could have been averted and I tremendously regret touching this stuff.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Yeah, started using it because hair was starting to thin and I freaked out... stayed away from Fin because of the side effects/horror stories (had a script but did not fill it!) but did not realize I was taking such a high dosage of SP (320mg extract)... was looking for 500mg but had no idea that SP came in a powder AND extract form. Thought what I was taking was less than the 500mg I was orignially looking for (as label said 320mg), thought it was a placebo if anything as many have mentioned it's useless for hair to begin with. I was obviously wrong but it was a human error on my part - this was not intentional. Had I known I was taking such a high dosage I obviously would not have bought it nor used it... it's a shame the labeling on these products is so poor (ie - not stating the equivalency of the extract version to the powder version). This could have been averted and I tremendously regret touching this stuff.
    Sounds to me like you should look into your nutritional basis, and your automic nervous system imbalances as well as your adrenals , thyroid, Pm me and I will explain in details

  20. Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    i wonder why your E2 and estriol are so low...were you using anything else at the time? this could also be part of the low libido situation, as ideal E2 is pretty critical to that.

    DHT is spot-on, so it doesnt look like the SP had a really large effect, at least on serum levels (i have also read that it has a preference for prostate tissue more than anything else)

    the high SHBG is peculiar though. it's certainly binding up the free T...i wonder what the cause is. are you having any progesterone-related sides or using anything progestagenic?

    this might be an adrenal thing too...i dunno. i bet the HRT guys would, though, but i'd use another website for guidance; the HRT forum here is pretty fascist.
    Would my low estrogens be causing any of these problems? I get erections at night but morningwood is still not present as well as spontaneous erections during the day and libido is still non-existent. A few weeks after stopping SP I did the Broccoli treatment for a couple days since I was freaked out but it may have made my problems worse, though I highly doubt broccoli water would have further hurt me, it might have even helped? My estrogens had to have been somewhat higher on SP as I did have larger nipples - they're back to normal size and no signs of gyno. Maybe I brought them too low? I know that all that extra test from SP aromatizes to estrogen and that's not a good thing. Again, estrogen results:

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)

    Estrogens on the low-end are just as bad as being in the high-end, right?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Would my low estrogens be causing any of these problems? I get erections at night but morningwood is still not present as well as spontaneous erections during the day and libido is still non-existent. A few weeks after stopping SP I did the Broccoli treatment for a couple days since I was freaked out but it may have made my problems worse, though I highly doubt broccoli water would have further hurt me, it might have even helped? My estrogens had to have been somewhat higher on SP as I did have larger nipples - they're back to normal size and no signs of gyno. Maybe I brought them too low? I know that all that extra test from SP aromatizes to estrogen and that's not a good thing. Again, estrogen results:

    Estrone (E1) 5.6 (3 - 12.0)
    Estradiol (E2) 1.6 (0 - 7.0)
    Estriol 1.8 (1 - 16)
    Total Estrogens 9.0 (4 -22)

    Estrogens on the low-end are just as bad as being in the high-end, right?
    Yes, definitely. How are you feeling with the ocytocin and seligiline that Shippen prescribed? Any improvement? Did he say anything about your high SHBG and low free T?

  22. I honestly haven't noticed much change - I ran out of Oxytocin and need to get a refill. I just had a phone consult with him and he prescribed small-dosed Ritalin (for libido) and Testosterone drops so will get those fillied in the next few days. Said to use them 2-3 hours before sex, gym, if I'm feeling fatigued, etc and see if that helps. He showed me the chart about SHBG and Free T but said I was OK in that dept.

    What a mess I got myself into, albeit by mistake - but why should it cost me my health? I try not to beat myself up over this but it's like living in a body that isn't mine. I was perfectly healthy prior to this disaster and I've never been so down in my entire life when just a few months ago I was in tip-top form. I've made some improvements since the crash but I'm far from what I was (at least in my mind).

    Amazingly I can still lift the same amount of weights and even maxed out on the bench last week - 235lbs and I weigh 165lbs (I'm 6"1" btw). Still, the muscle wastage/decrease is depressing (I've never seen my wrists so skinny/small) but hopefully I can maintain the same strength. Shirts just don't fit me the same way they used to but I'm not in bad shape by any means - I still have energy to goto the gym and have little body fat - but my chest/arms/calves used to be a lot bigger. High cortisol could be the culprit in terms of gains but who knows.

    My appetite has decreased significantly - I used to be starving after the gym and now I feel like my stomach has shrunk and a Lean Cuisinewill will fill me up. I used to have a ravenous appetitie and a high metabolism, so I probably had a higher calorie intake compared to now. I'm on Wellbutrin and that's been known to supress appetite, but I'm just not the human garbage disposal I used to be. Sleep isn't the same either. Heck, I'll be happy if I'm back to even 80% of my old self.

  23. Results from 5/9/08:

    Bloodwork:
    Progesterone .50 (<1.4 ngML)
    T4 Free 1.25 (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
    TSH 0.84 (0.40-4.50 uIU/mL)
    T3 Total 119 (60-181 ng/DL)
    DHEA Sulfate 212 (110-510mcg/dL)
    Cortisol (AM) 1.0L (4.0-22.0 mcg/dL)*
    ACTH Plasma <5L (7-50 pg/mL)*

    * = After Dexamethasone Suppression Test, hence the low reading (which is good)

    Salivary Cortisol: 0.70 [Not sure which vile out of the three this is referring to or if this is an average, took at 3 different times]
    Reference Range:
    8-10AM 0.04-0.56
    4-6PM < OR = 0.15
    10-11PM < OR = 0.09

    Adrenal MRI = OK, no problem found

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    I honestly haven't noticed much change - I ran out of Oxytocin and need to get a refill. I just had a phone consult with him and he prescribed small-dosed Ritalin (for libido) and Testosterone drops so will get those fillied in the next few days. Said to use them 2-3 hours before sex, gym, if I'm feeling fatigued, etc and see if that helps. He showed me the chart about SHBG and Free T but said I was OK in that dept.

    What a mess I got myself into, albeit by mistake - but why should it cost me my health? I try not to beat myself up over this but it's like living in a body that isn't mine. I was perfectly healthy prior to this disaster and I've never been so down in my entire life when just a few months ago I was in tip-top form. I've made some improvements since the crash but I'm far from what I was (at least in my mind).

    Amazingly I can still lift the same amount of weights and even maxed out on the bench last week - 235lbs and I weigh 165lbs (I'm 6"1" btw). Still, the muscle wastage/decrease is depressing (I've never seen my wrists so skinny/small) but hopefully I can maintain the same strength. Shirts just don't fit me the same way they used to but I'm not in bad shape by any means - I still have energy to goto the gym and have little body fat - but my chest/arms/calves used to be a lot bigger. High cortisol could be the culprit in terms of gains but who knows.

    My appetite has decreased significantly - I used to be starving after the gym and now I feel like my stomach has shrunk and a Lean Cuisinewill will fill me up. I used to have a ravenous appetitie and a high metabolism, so I probably had a higher calorie intake compared to now. I'm on Wellbutrin and that's been known to supress appetite, but I'm just not the human garbage disposal I used to be. Sleep isn't the same either. Heck, I'll be happy if I'm back to even 80% of my old self.
    How about your butt,thighs and legs, Did you lose msucle/wastage in that area?
    I have lost a lot of muscle in this area too. My oants and shirts wont fit me.

  25. On this thread
    your post #2
    Here are my labs: 2/15/08

    DHEA 187 ng/DL (180-1250)
    DHEA Sulfate 356 mcg/dL (110-510)
    Prolactin, Serum 4.8 ng/dl (2.0-18.0)
    LH, Serum 1.9 mIU/mL (1.5-9.3)
    FSH, Serum 1.2 mIU/mL (1.6-8.0)
    Cortisol (AM) 19.9 mog/dL (4.0-22.0)
    T4 Free 1.18 ng/dL (0.8 1.8)
    TSH 0.93 mIU/L (0.40 4.50)
    Estradiol 32 pg/ML (13 54)
    Testosterone Total 419 ng/dL (250-1100)
    SHBG 40 (7-49 nmol/L)
    DHT 43 (25-75 ng/dL)
    ============================== ================


    Post #26
    urine test BEFORE Clomid: (All ranges in ug)
    Testosterone 84 (45 - 85)

    Blood Test AFTER Clomid:

    Testosterone 575 ng/dl (241 - 827)
    LH 5.0 mIU/mL (1.5 - 9.3)
    FSH 1.9 (1.6 - 8.0)
    ============================== ================

    #1 your have excellent care under dr Shippen
    --------------------------------

    What I would try if I found myself in your predicament.
    I am not a doctor.

    Drop each and every medication and supplements.
    Saw Palmetto, seleginine, oxytocin, whatewer else that you are taking.

    Get Adrenals and thyroid thoroughly checked.
    Best using these tests:

    Adrenocortex Stress Profile
    Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventative Medicine - Genova Diagnostics

    Comprehensive Thyroid Assessment
    Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventative Medicine - Genova Diagnostics

    Assuming that you did not took ant external testosterone,
    so your testis are still in natural state,

    do HCG challenge test,
    to see what your testis are able to produce.

    then asses if you are able to increase your testosterone production natural way (with help of HCG) or that you will have to combine (HCG + T shots)
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Other than lowish TotalTestosterone you have high SHBG.

    Thanks for a clean chart,
    I marked it with your present (SHBG=40) needs for TT(green)
    TT(800-1500)
    and
    what would you need if you lower your SHBG=26
    TT(650-1100)
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    High SHBG indicate some metabolic inbalances.
    You can get a rather good help in this area if you would do this test:

    NutrEval
    Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventative Medicine - Genova Diagnostics

    In results of this test you would receive list of supplements, names and daily dose.
    Those will be the supplements that you are actualy missing.

    Good luck

    ============================== ===============
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  26. Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    How about your butt,thighs and legs, Did you lose msucle/wastage in that area?
    I have lost a lot of muscle in this area too. My oants and shirts wont fit me.
    Yeah I lost muscle in my calves, arms, hands, fingers, allover... wrists are as skinny as I've ever seen them... I used to be a 34 waist and can barely fit in a 33. The depression from all of this is just too much.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Terp03 View Post
    Yeah I lost muscle in my calves, arms, hands, fingers, allover... wrists are as skinny as I've ever seen them... I used to be a 34 waist and can barely fit in a 33. The depression from all of this is just too much.
    Low testosterone = depression

  28. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Low testosterone = depression
    But he dont have that much low testosterone (419)

  29. That's low for his age.
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