HCG not restoring ball size.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Yeah. That's why they call 'em the "Baby Gators". All of last years team is in the NBA.

    J, Did you ever do the cream or did you just start with injection? Why inject over cream for you?

    I'm really torn on how to proceed. I see doc's point for introducing T as my stalled progress over last 4 months. I had an initial TT boost to 702 when I started HCG at 500 EOD. Then as we went to 600, then 1000 I actually decreased TT slightly at each dose increase. My doc is a patient guy and I think if he saw any increase at all - no matter how slight - I'd still be trying the HCG.

    Still I hear what Colkurtz is saying about trying one more time. Maybe I'm just a little impatient myself - you get that when when you lived with free T of 40 for 6 or 8 years and didn't know any better. Thanks to you all for the input.
    Yup, they are babies.

    I started with injections, because my doctor thought my thyroid condition was cause absorbtion issues. Plus, I'd rather shoot once a week, than slather daily. That's just me. I gave myself allergy shots through college, so no big thing.


    I've never heard about the hCG monotherapy, except for attempted re-start. I can appreciate sticking with it, if it works reasonably quick and there are advantages. But if I were you, I'd want to just get to it, at this juncture. For me, I was feeling so badly, I didnt want to mess around. At some juncture, I may think about switching over, to try the monotherapy, but I dont want to rock the boat, for now. Why are you torn?

    Hope you start feeling even better, soon.

    J


  2. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Why are you torn? J
    I'm not sure if I wouldn't have gotten a better HCG result if I did 1000 EOD instead of 500 ED. All my previous doses were EOD so perhaps I should have been consistent. Colkurtz pointed out levels spike after 36 hours which, theoretically, could have given me a better test result. Although, on the other hand, it's still the same high average dosage. I'm confused if that would or wouldn't skew test result. (BTW, doc said I could do EOD or ED whichever I preferred). Morning BW was always early and before injection.

    I was also anticipating doing injections instead of cream when starting T, so that also gave me some pause. However, after speaking with doc I feel better. We will watch DHT (which he thinks is a little too low for me right now and thus, the cream) and if it gets out of control we can always switch. He assured me he has many patients on both (cream and inject) and all pros and cons are constantly assessed. He also instructed me to apply cream to small, hairless area (like inner upper arms) to reduce aromatization and conversion. Said hair areas convert much higher than hairless areas.

    I guess I'll give it a go.
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  3. cream


    Gator:

    When you say your doctor has patients on both cream and inject, do you mean they are using the two simultaneously?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    I'm not sure if I wouldn't have gotten a better HCG result if I did 1000 EOD instead of 500 ED. All my previous doses were EOD so perhaps I should have been consistent. Colkurtz pointed out levels spike after 36 hours which, theoretically, could have given me a better test result. Although, on the other hand, it's still the same high weekly dosage. I'm confused if that would or wouldn't skew test result. (BTW, doc said I could do EOD or ED whichever I preferred). Morning BW was always early and before injection.

    I was also anticipating doing injections instead of cream when starting T, so that also gave me some pause. However, after speaking with doc I feel better. We will watch DHT (which he thinks is a little too low for me right now and thus, the cream) and if it gets out of control we can always switch. He assured me he has many patients on both (cream and inject) and all pros and cons are constantly assessed. He also instructed me to apply cream to small, hairless area (like inner upper arms) to reduce aromatization and conversion. Said hair areas convert much higher than hairless areas.

    I guess I'll give it a go.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    When you say your doctor has patients on both cream and inject, do you mean they are using the two simultaneously?
    No. I meant that he has patients on one or the other which indicates to me that he is open to either delivery method but, for now, thinks the cream is the way to go for me.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    I guess the best part of my bloodwork was my increase in DHEA.
    If anyone is looking to boost DHEA check out Raw Test (DHEA Booster) by Get Diesel. My DHEA was always low - usually below 100. I tried pretty much every supplement to boost it to no avail. I gave this product a try a few weeks ago and bingo -300!
    Raw Test has been discontinued ages ago...
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Bungloid48 View Post
    Raw Test has been discontinued ages ago...
    Yeah I know. I had some laying around (expired 12/07) but they were the only DHEA supp that did anything. I was taking high quality "DHEA Complete" from Life Extension but that never did anything per BW. Then I found 2 bottles of RT I had, figured "what the hell" and took them and my DHEA tripled (100-300). I found they are stilling selling this at some supplement sites and got a few more bottles. RT contains DHEA, pregnenolone, and magnesium. Maybe it's the combination. It is possible the high dose HCG may have contributed, but my TT was the same at most of the BW.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Yeah I know. I had some laying around (expired 12/07) but they were the only DHEA supp that did anything. I was taking high quality "DHEA Complete" from Life Extension but that never did anything per BW. Then I found 2 bottles of RT I had, figured "what the hell" and took them and my DHEA tripled (100-300). I found they are stilling selling this at some supplement sites and got a few more bottles. RT contains DHEA, pregnenolone, and magnesium. Maybe it's the combination. It is possible the high dose HCG may have contributed, but my TT was the same at most of the BW.
    That's all it contains? There is no way. That is, by and no large, no special combination that would magically increase bioavailability, which for DHEA, I believe is null when ingested orally.
  8. cream


    Thank you. What dose is he starting you on for cream, and is the HCG dose going to be reduced?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    No. I meant that he has patients on one or the other which indicates to me that he is open to either delivery method but, for now, thinks the cream is the way to go for me.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I guess I dont understand the difference of it being your own testosterone if you need to take the hCG to produce, but if you feel better (and those killer numbers dont lie), power to you, brother.

    Is your doc concerned that your TT and FT are too high? Do you feel overstimulated?

    I'm glad you are doing so well.
    Those results are almost two years old. I maintned that level with success for close to a year, but after reading Dr, John's posts decided to abandon treatment. His claims that high dose HCG burned out leydig cells spooked me. I took around 8 months off of all therapy but didn't like the way I felt. My mind wasn't as sharp and I lost muscle mass and stregnth. My bench dropped from 12 reps at 225 to 5.

    A few months ago I started back at a much lower dose and achieved decent levels (TT 957 and FT 233) within 6 weeks. This time my protocol included 2000 IUs of HCG per week, 1.5 grams of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of Progesterone and 75 mg of DHEA daily. I recently started a three day split and would like to move to 1000 IUs EOD. That will depend on my lab results.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    And I didnt mean to suggest that 50 was old. Just that I didnt understand the reluctance to becoming reliant on exogenous T at such an age. But now I appreciate that its about your experience with hCG being superior to hCG + T, if I am understanding you correctly.
    It's mostly about the experience. HCG helps you maintain your body's natural rythm. I would prefer to go further up the HPTA chain and directly stimulate LH, but so far there doesn't seem to be a safe long-term solution.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Bungloid48 View Post
    That's all it contains? There is no way. That is, by and no large, no special combination that would magically increase bioavailability, which for DHEA, I believe is null when ingested orally.
    I'm not disagreeing with you and I can't explain it either. I'm just pointing out the results of my blood test. My DHEA supp was the only thing I changed between tests and DHEA-S went from 100 to 300. Chuck Diesel used to say the "special" enteric coating allowed the DHEA to be absorbed slowly. Others say the same. Who knows?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Those results are almost two years old. I maintned that level with success for close to a year, but after reading Dr, John's posts decided to abandon treatment. His claims that high dose HCG burned out leydig cells spooked me. I took around 8 months off of all therapy but didn't like the way I felt. My mind wasn't as sharp and I lost muscle mass and stregnth. My bench dropped from 12 reps at 225 to 5.

    A few months ago I started back at a much lower dose and achieved decent levels (TT 957 and FT 233) within 6 weeks. This time my protocol included 2000 IUs of HCG per week, 1.5 grams of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of Progesterone and 75 mg of DHEA daily. I recently started a three day split and would like to move to 1000 IUs EOD. That will depend on my lab results.
    Even those values seem high, from what I've read. My doc's targets are TT 750 and FT 200, I think. Maybe that's on the low side.

    I dont think many 50 year olds (or any other age, for that matter) would be complaining about pressing 225 for sets of 5 (at your weak point), dude. You're pretty damn strong.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Even those values seem high, from what I've read. My doc's targets are TT 750 and FT 200, I think. Maybe that's on the low side.

    I dont think many 50 year olds (or any other age, for that matter) would be complaining about pressing 225 for sets of 5 (at your weak point), dude. You're pretty damn strong.
    Thanks, but you have to consider my size. I'm 6'4" 235.

  14. well, i have my 24boxes...lol

    dont notice too much, but i think my balls are back to normal size....taking 400iu 2x week.... insurance so ill keep a pokin..
  15. HCG and leydig cells..


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I've heard about leydig desensitization too.
    This is a byproduct of testicular aromatase, according to the studies I have read.

    I'd assume an AI would prevent this.. *shrug*

    To the original poster; you can try HMG as well, it will surely plump the boys back up.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by smc252 View Post
    This is a byproduct of , according to the studies I have read.

    I'd assume an AI would prevent this.. *shrug*

    To the original poster; you can try HMG as well, it will surely plump the boys back up.
    Are you saying that aromatase causes leydig desensitization, or that HCG causes testicular aromatase? I've looked hard for studies showing desensitization through HCG use, but haven't found anything conclusive. Would you share what you've read?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 03-09-2008 at 03:09 AM.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Those results are almost two years old. I maintned that level with success for close to a year, but after reading Dr, John's posts decided to abandon treatment. His claims that high dose HCG burned out leydig cells spooked me. I took around 8 months off of all therapy but didn't like the way I felt. My mind wasn't as sharp and I lost muscle mass and stregnth. My bench dropped from 12 reps at 225 to 5.

    A few months ago I started back at a much lower dose and achieved decent levels (TT 957 and FT 233) within 6 weeks. This time my protocol included 2000 IUs of HCG per week, 1.5 grams of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of Progesterone and 75 mg of DHEA daily. I recently started a three day split and would like to move to 1000 IUs EOD. That will depend on my lab results.
    I had my last blood drawn 8/30/07
    Currenly I am EOD system
    T=178.5mg/week
    0.38cc liquid Anastrozole on day of shot, 0.38*7/2=1.33 Arimidex/week
    750iu hcg on days between shots, last week and half, previously 375iu.


    Middle of February08 I have made major reshuffling on my supplements and started the feeling that I am drifting out of steady state that I felt before. About two weeks ago I changed from 375iu hcg first to 500iu then to 750iu/EOD.
    Chassing my E2 I changed liquid Anastrozole from 0.33*7/2=1.155cc/week to current 1.33
    Slight improvement not much.
    My testicles feel as if (possibly) litle bit firmer, but scrotum is much tighter now than before. I do not have a time when scrotum would be fully relaxed. Sex is back from 3/week to hardly 2/week, much less intensity.

    Wonder what to think about?

    I have already e-mailed my doc, asking for blood work script.
    Hopefully within 2 weeks will have more concrete info.
    Just trying to figure some reasonable guesses.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Mainly I am thinking about HCG.
    I have supply of 1500iu ampoules.
    They can easyly be divided to 3-500iu or 2-750iu shots.
    Previously 1500/4=375
    Wonder which one to pick.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I had my last blood drawn 8/30/07
    Currenly I am EOD system
    T=178.5mg/week
    0.38cc liquid Anastrozole on day of shot, 0.38*7/2=1.33 Arimidex/week
    750iu hcg on days between shots, last week and half, previously 375iu.


    Middle of February08 I have made major reshuffling on my supplements and started the feeling that I am drifting out of steady state that I felt before. About two weeks ago I changed from 375iu hcg first to 500iu then to 750iu/EOD.
    Chassing my E2 I changed liquid Anastrozole from 0.33*7/2=1.155cc/week to current 1.33
    Slight improvement not much.
    My testicles feel as if (possibly) litle bit firmer, but scrotum is much tighter now than before. I do not have a time when scrotum would be fully relaxed. Sex is back from 3/week to hardly 2/week, much less intensity.

    Wonder what to think about?

    I have already e-mailed my doc, asking for blood work script.
    Hopefully within 2 weeks will have more concrete info.
    Just trying to figure some reasonable guesses.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Mainly I am thinking about HCG.
    I have supply of 1500iu ampoules.
    They can easyly be divided to 3-500iu or 2-750iu shots.
    Previously 1500/4=375
    Wonder which one to pick.
    You may have elevated estrogen, which is why the Anastrozole helped. I've been using the three day split for HCG and like it. I'll be curious to see the results of my draw. Maybe you need to increase your dosage of Anastrozole. I've gone as high as 3 mg/week while on HCG and had no problem. I tried 5 mg some time back, but didn't care much for the way I felt. Right now 1.5 mg is doing the trick, but I'm ready to move the dose up if necessary.
  19. arimidex


    Any of you guys who use Arimidex get it paid by insurance? I called pharmacy and they quoted me 12/pill for 1mg? Outrageous!

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I would go back to 1000 EOD. HCG peaks in 36 hours and lasts 72. If your estrogen levels get too high ask for Arimidex. For me it did the trick and drove my test levels even higher.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    Any of you guys who use Arimidex get it paid by insurance? I called pharmacy and they quoted me 12/pill for 1mg? Outrageous!
    I dont know anything about this product, but Jans uses Liquidex, I believe, and speaks favorably of it. There is also Liquifem. I hope this doesnt violate any posting rules. If so, I apologize.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    Any of you guys who use Arimidex get it paid by insurance? I called pharmacy and they quoted me 12/pill for 1mg? Outrageous!
    My insurance covers it. With co-pay my cost is $25 for 30 1 mg pills.
  22. Arimidex


    Did you have to get it prior authorized with your insurance company? My insurance company says they won't cover it because it is only for females...they call it a gender specific drug?

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    My insurance covers it. With co-pay my cost is $25 for 30 1 mg pills.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    Did you have to get it prior authorized with your insurance company? My insurance company says they won't cover it because it is only for females...they call it a gender specific drug?
    My urologist prescribed. I took the script to Walgreens, handed them my insurance card and they asked for a $25 co-payment. I didn't ask them why it's covered. I assumed that Arimidex could be used to treat prostate issues.

  24. my wife says this, its either covered or its not... IE.

    its a covered drug for females with cancer, so they dont care if its scripted for a male

  25. Quote Originally Posted by phatkid77 View Post
    my wife says this, its either covered or its not... IE.

    its a covered drug for females with cancer, so they dont care if its scripted for a male

    FYI, I'm a male.
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