HCG not restoring ball size.

Page 3 of 4 First 1234 Last

  1. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I would drop Danazol, even small dose of it.
    My SHBG when I started with Dr. Shippen in November was 56! It is now 37. That's a drop of almost 20 points! He claims the Danazol lowers SHBG and it sure seems to have helped alot for me. He actually prescribes it for it's anti-SHBG action and not as an anti-E. I know it's not referenced in any google search but he claims it works and I sure saw the drop.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Good luck!
    Thanks.
    •   
       

  3. DHEA booster


    I guess the best part of my bloodwork was my increase in DHEA.
    If anyone is looking to boost DHEA check out Raw Test (DHEA Booster) by Get Diesel. My DHEA was always low - usually below 100. I tried pretty much every supplement to boost it to no avail. I gave this product a try a few weeks ago and bingo -300!
  4. My old test results


    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    It was around 110-120 doing 600 EOD per my doctors chart because my SHBG is so high (around 50). Dr. Shippen uses the chart where you calculate free test by intersecting total test and SHBG.

    I do feel better though. Imagine when I started my total test was 320 with SHBG of 50! My free test was around 40!

    I should have blood test results tommorrow from doing 1000 EOD and I will post them. I did take your advice last week and quit doing 500iu's ED and went to 1000iu's EOD. I think my body likes that even better.
    I found a panel from my second blood draw dated 8/22/06. Before I strated TRT my total testosterone was 475. After one year I quit testosterone and went on 6 weeks of HCG therapy at 10,000 IUs per week. I then stopped everything for two weeks and drew blood on 6/07/06. My total was only 97. For the next 10 weeks I injected 10,000 IUs weekly and drew for the panel attached.

    6 months later I reduced my dose to 8000 IUs and included Arimidex to combat rising estrogen. My total went up over 1400 with free at 425. Approximately one year after I started this treatment I quit everything and my baseline returned to its pre-TRT level of 475.
    Attached Images Attached Images
  5. Spoke with my doc about T cream


    He thought I hit a wall with the HCG. I've been doing for over 4 months now and seemed to have hit a ceiling at around 650 TT. I recently doubled my dose from 600iu's EOD to 1000iu's EOD and my TT actually dropped a bit. With my SHBG around 40 my free T is stuck around 110.

    I envy your success with HCG alone Colkurtz.

    Anyway, Dr. S wants to use compounded T cream because my DHT is on the low side 33 (25-75 Quest) and my E has always been pretty low (20 - 24). We will keep an eye on the DHT (I prefer to keep my hair). My starting dose is 0.7ml (200mg/ml compound) so it looks like that is 140mg a day. I was preferring shots but after we spoke I feel better about the cream. He thinks I fit the "cream profile" better than shots right now but we can always change.

    I will also continue lower dose HCG to prevent balls from shrinking.

    What do you guys think?

    BTW, If I apply at 7:00am (per doc) how long do I have to wait before swim or shower? I usually go to gym around 8:00am and sweat a lot. Maybe apply after gym? I forgot to ask doc about this.
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    He thought I hit a wall with the HCG. I've been doing for over 4 months now and seemed to have hit a ceiling at around 650 TT. I recently doubled my dose from 600iu's EOD to 1000iu's EOD and my TT actually dropped a bit. With my SHBG around 40 my free T is stuck around 110.

    I envy your success with HCG alone Colkurtz.

    Anyway, Dr. S wants to use compounded T cream because my DHT is on the low side 33 (25-75 Quest) and my E has always been pretty low (20 - 24). We will keep an eye on the DHT (I prefer to keep my hair). My starting dose is 0.7ml (200mg/ml compound) so it looks like that is 140mg a day. I was preferring shots but after we spoke I feel better about the cream. He thinks I fit the "cream profile" better than shots right now but we can always change.

    I will also continue lower dose HCG to prevent balls from shrinking.

    What do you guys think?

    BTW, If I apply at 7:00am (per doc) how long do I have to wait before swim or shower? I usually go to gym around 8:00am and sweat a lot. Maybe apply after gym? I forgot to ask doc about this.
    14 mg/day, that's a healthy starting dose, which should get you up towards your target fast. That's equal to about 125-130 (70% absorption on avg) mgs of T cyp per week.

    Generally, I believe it's safe to workout 2 hours post application. I would recommend putting it on after you shower, post work out, as working out even 2 hours post application will reduce absorption by some measure.

    Hope it goes well for you. Good luck.

    Best,
    J

  7. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    14 mg/day, that's a healthy starting dose, which should get you up towards your target fast. That's equal to about 125-130 (70% absorption on avg) mgs of T cyp per week.
    Thanks J. I wasn't quite sure how that looked as a starting dose. From what I read here, many complain about starting too low - testicles shut down but no benefit.

    Since T is highest in early AM, I was thinking about applying around 6:00am (when I get up). Maybe hit gym around 9:00am. That would give me about 3 hours before sweat/shower.

    Does 200iu HCG EOD sound right as an HCG "balls maintenance dose". I think that's what doc said but I have to check.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    He thought I hit a wall with the HCG. I've been doing for over 4 months now and seemed to have hit a ceiling at around 650 TT. I recently doubled my dose from 600iu's EOD to 1000iu's EOD and my TT actually dropped a bit. With my SHBG around 40 my free T is stuck around 110.

    I envy your success with HCG alone Colkurtz.

    Anyway, Dr. S wants to use compounded T cream because my DHT is on the low side 33 (25-75 Quest) and my E has always been pretty low (20 - 24). We will keep an eye on the DHT (I prefer to keep my hair). My starting dose is 0.7ml (200mg/ml compound) so it looks like that is 140mg a day. I was preferring shots but after we spoke I feel better about the cream. He thinks I fit the "cream profile" better than shots right now but we can always change.

    I will also continue lower dose HCG to prevent balls from shrinking.

    What do you guys think?

    BTW, If I apply at 7:00am (per doc) how long do I have to wait before swim or shower? I usually go to gym around 8:00am and sweat a lot. Maybe apply after gym? I forgot to ask doc about this.
    I think you ought to give the higher dose of HCG a chance. I showed you that my total was only at 97 after 6 weeks at 10,000 IUs and two weeks off. A year on test cream virtually neutered me. I really don't think you used enough to start with, and I don't think you've given the higher dose enough time. Right now you are feeling pretty good. You can always change your protocol. What's the rush?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I think you ought to give the higher dose of HCG a chance. I showed you that my total was only at 97 after 6 weeks at 10,000 IUs and two weeks off. A year on test cream virtually neutered me. I really don't think you used enough to start with, and I don't think you've given the higher dose enough time. Right now you are feeling pretty good. You can always change your protocol. What's the rush?
    I dont really understand the difference if there is no real prospect of re-starting the system. And taking the hCG should preserve testicular function. Colkurtz, were you taking hCG when you were on the cream?

    Based on my research, taking high doses of hCG is more likely to increase E2, though that doesnt sound like it's an issue for Gator, and is less likely to give the same sense of wellbeing as the combined protocol. But as they say, your milage may very. I think I would go with the combined protocol, particularly given your age Gator. That's easy for me to say, as I went for the combined protocol, and I am 37.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Thanks J. I wasn't quite sure how that looked as a starting dose. From what I read here, many complain about starting too low - testicles shut down but no benefit.

    Since T is highest in early AM, I was thinking about applying around 6:00am (when I get up). Maybe hit gym around 9:00am. That would give me about 3 hours before sweat/shower.

    Does 200iu HCG EOD sound right as an HCG "balls maintenance dose". I think that's what doc said but I have to check.
    I agree, many that start with 2.5-5 mgs shut their systems down, and then feel worse than before starting.

    With that dose, and since it is a cream, I think you're fine with 3 hours. I'd expect it to be 95% absorbed by that time.

    200 IUs EOD equals 700 IUs per week. From what I know, maintenance is 550-750/week, typically. So that sounds right. Jans says 306 EOD, and he takes 380, to error on the high side. I think 200 IUs is good to start, based on the consensus. But I'm sure that Jans dose is safe, as he a good study of this stuff.

    I'll keep my fingers crossed for you . . . and the Gators. The close loss to Tenn. could be the death knell.

    Best,
    J

  11. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I'll keep my fingers crossed for you . . . and the Gators. The close loss to Tenn. could be the death knell. J
    Yeah. That's why they call 'em the "Baby Gators". All of last years team is in the NBA.

    J, Did you ever do the cream or did you just start with injection? Why inject over cream for you?

    I'm really torn on how to proceed. I see doc's point for introducing T as my stalled progress over last 4 months. I had an initial TT boost to 702 when I started HCG at 500 EOD. Then as we went to 600, then 1000 I actually decreased TT slightly at each dose increase. My doc is a patient guy and I think if he saw any increase at all - no matter how slight - I'd still be trying the HCG.

    Still I hear what Colkurtz is saying about trying one more time. Maybe I'm just a little impatient myself - you get that when when you lived with free T of 40 for 6 or 8 years and didn't know any better. Thanks to you all for the input.
  12. Are you SURE you are not using too much water? Might be way too dilute


    When you say you "took all the sterile water out of the first vial, ejected that into the vial with the powder and shook it a little bit" that leads me to believe you diluted it excessively. I use 5ml of water, if memory serves per my Dr's instructions. 15 unit on the syringe then gives me around 325 per shot. Note that my Dr uses less water than others for a less dilute, more concentrated solution.

    In any event, at only 19 perhaps you should see a leader in the field. If there is ANY chance at restart you owe it to yourself.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I dont really understand the difference if there is no real prospect of re-starting the system. And taking the hCG should preserve testicular function. Colkurtz, were you taking hCG when you were on the cream?

    Based on my research, taking high doses of hCG is more likely to increase E2, though that doesnt sound like it's an issue for Gator, and is less likely to give the same sense of wellbeing as the combined protocol. But as they say, your milage may very. I think I would go with the combined protocol, particularly given your age Gator. That's easy for me to say, as I went for the combined protocol, and I am 37.
    I've done both. For me nothing compares to HCG alone. Libido and energy are much greater on HCG when you are a responder. My doctor would think Gator is too young not to try HCG first. I don't think he is old - maybe because I'll be 50 in two weeks. If you look at the lab I posted you'll see total testosterone of 1292 with free at 358 (my own testosterone) and estradiol at 16. That was when I was on 10,000 IUs of HCG per week without testosterone supplementation. Of course after six months my estrogen increased. I had to take Arimidex. The cream will raise estrogen levels as well. When I was on it my estradiol broke 60 and DHT went through the roof.
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 03-08-2008 at 02:09 AM.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I've done both. For me nothing compares to HCG alone. Libido and energy are much greater on HCG when you are a responder. My doctor would think Gator is too young not to try HCG first. I don't think he is old - maybe because I'll be 50 in two weeks. If you look at the lab I posted you'll see total testosterone of 1292 with free at 358 (my own testosterone) and estradiol at 16. That was when I was on 10,000 IUs of HCG per week without testosterone supplementation. Of course after six months my estrogen increased. I had to take Arimidex. The cream will raise estrogen levels as well. When I was on it my estradiol broke 60 and DHT went through the roof.
    I guess I dont understand the difference of it being your own testosterone if you need to take the hCG to produce, but if you feel better (and those killer numbers dont lie), power to you, brother.

    Is your doc concerned that your TT and FT are too high? Do you feel overstimulated?

    I'm glad you are doing so well.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I've done both. For me nothing compares to HCG alone. Libido and energy are much greater on HCG when you are a responder. My doctor would think Gator is too young not to try HCG first. I don't think he is old - maybe because I'll be 50 in two weeks. If you look at the lab I posted you'll see total testosterone of 1292 with free at 358 (my own testosterone) and estradiol at 16. That was when I was on 10,000 IUs of HCG per week without testosterone supplementation. Of course after six months my estrogen increased. I had to take Arimidex. The cream will raise estrogen levels as well. When I was on it my estradiol broke 60 and DHT went through the roof.
    And I didnt mean to suggest that 50 was old. Just that I didnt understand the reluctance to becoming reliant on exogenous T at such an age. But now I appreciate that its about your experience with hCG being superior to hCG + T, if I am understanding you correctly.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Yeah. That's why they call 'em the "Baby Gators". All of last years team is in the NBA.

    J, Did you ever do the cream or did you just start with injection? Why inject over cream for you?

    I'm really torn on how to proceed. I see doc's point for introducing T as my stalled progress over last 4 months. I had an initial TT boost to 702 when I started HCG at 500 EOD. Then as we went to 600, then 1000 I actually decreased TT slightly at each dose increase. My doc is a patient guy and I think if he saw any increase at all - no matter how slight - I'd still be trying the HCG.

    Still I hear what Colkurtz is saying about trying one more time. Maybe I'm just a little impatient myself - you get that when when you lived with free T of 40 for 6 or 8 years and didn't know any better. Thanks to you all for the input.
    Yup, they are babies.

    I started with injections, because my doctor thought my thyroid condition was cause absorbtion issues. Plus, I'd rather shoot once a week, than slather daily. That's just me. I gave myself allergy shots through college, so no big thing.


    I've never heard about the hCG monotherapy, except for attempted re-start. I can appreciate sticking with it, if it works reasonably quick and there are advantages. But if I were you, I'd want to just get to it, at this juncture. For me, I was feeling so badly, I didnt want to mess around. At some juncture, I may think about switching over, to try the monotherapy, but I dont want to rock the boat, for now. Why are you torn?

    Hope you start feeling even better, soon.

    J

  17. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Why are you torn? J
    I'm not sure if I wouldn't have gotten a better HCG result if I did 1000 EOD instead of 500 ED. All my previous doses were EOD so perhaps I should have been consistent. Colkurtz pointed out levels spike after 36 hours which, theoretically, could have given me a better test result. Although, on the other hand, it's still the same high average dosage. I'm confused if that would or wouldn't skew test result. (BTW, doc said I could do EOD or ED whichever I preferred). Morning BW was always early and before injection.

    I was also anticipating doing injections instead of cream when starting T, so that also gave me some pause. However, after speaking with doc I feel better. We will watch DHT (which he thinks is a little too low for me right now and thus, the cream) and if it gets out of control we can always switch. He assured me he has many patients on both (cream and inject) and all pros and cons are constantly assessed. He also instructed me to apply cream to small, hairless area (like inner upper arms) to reduce aromatization and conversion. Said hair areas convert much higher than hairless areas.

    I guess I'll give it a go.
  18. cream


    Gator:

    When you say your doctor has patients on both cream and inject, do you mean they are using the two simultaneously?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    I'm not sure if I wouldn't have gotten a better HCG result if I did 1000 EOD instead of 500 ED. All my previous doses were EOD so perhaps I should have been consistent. Colkurtz pointed out levels spike after 36 hours which, theoretically, could have given me a better test result. Although, on the other hand, it's still the same high weekly dosage. I'm confused if that would or wouldn't skew test result. (BTW, doc said I could do EOD or ED whichever I preferred). Morning BW was always early and before injection.

    I was also anticipating doing injections instead of cream when starting T, so that also gave me some pause. However, after speaking with doc I feel better. We will watch DHT (which he thinks is a little too low for me right now and thus, the cream) and if it gets out of control we can always switch. He assured me he has many patients on both (cream and inject) and all pros and cons are constantly assessed. He also instructed me to apply cream to small, hairless area (like inner upper arms) to reduce aromatization and conversion. Said hair areas convert much higher than hairless areas.

    I guess I'll give it a go.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    When you say your doctor has patients on both cream and inject, do you mean they are using the two simultaneously?
    No. I meant that he has patients on one or the other which indicates to me that he is open to either delivery method but, for now, thinks the cream is the way to go for me.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    I guess the best part of my bloodwork was my increase in DHEA.
    If anyone is looking to boost DHEA check out Raw Test (DHEA Booster) by Get Diesel. My DHEA was always low - usually below 100. I tried pretty much every supplement to boost it to no avail. I gave this product a try a few weeks ago and bingo -300!
    Raw Test has been discontinued ages ago...

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Bungloid48 View Post
    Raw Test has been discontinued ages ago...
    Yeah I know. I had some laying around (expired 12/07) but they were the only DHEA supp that did anything. I was taking high quality "DHEA Complete" from Life Extension but that never did anything per BW. Then I found 2 bottles of RT I had, figured "what the hell" and took them and my DHEA tripled (100-300). I found they are stilling selling this at some supplement sites and got a few more bottles. RT contains DHEA, pregnenolone, and magnesium. Maybe it's the combination. It is possible the high dose HCG may have contributed, but my TT was the same at most of the BW.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Yeah I know. I had some laying around (expired 12/07) but they were the only DHEA supp that did anything. I was taking high quality "DHEA Complete" from Life Extension but that never did anything per BW. Then I found 2 bottles of RT I had, figured "what the hell" and took them and my DHEA tripled (100-300). I found they are stilling selling this at some supplement sites and got a few more bottles. RT contains DHEA, pregnenolone, and magnesium. Maybe it's the combination. It is possible the high dose HCG may have contributed, but my TT was the same at most of the BW.
    That's all it contains? There is no way. That is, by and no large, no special combination that would magically increase bioavailability, which for DHEA, I believe is null when ingested orally.
  23. cream


    Thank you. What dose is he starting you on for cream, and is the HCG dose going to be reduced?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    No. I meant that he has patients on one or the other which indicates to me that he is open to either delivery method but, for now, thinks the cream is the way to go for me.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I guess I dont understand the difference of it being your own testosterone if you need to take the hCG to produce, but if you feel better (and those killer numbers dont lie), power to you, brother.

    Is your doc concerned that your TT and FT are too high? Do you feel overstimulated?

    I'm glad you are doing so well.
    Those results are almost two years old. I maintned that level with success for close to a year, but after reading Dr, John's posts decided to abandon treatment. His claims that high dose HCG burned out leydig cells spooked me. I took around 8 months off of all therapy but didn't like the way I felt. My mind wasn't as sharp and I lost muscle mass and stregnth. My bench dropped from 12 reps at 225 to 5.

    A few months ago I started back at a much lower dose and achieved decent levels (TT 957 and FT 233) within 6 weeks. This time my protocol included 2000 IUs of HCG per week, 1.5 grams of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of Progesterone and 75 mg of DHEA daily. I recently started a three day split and would like to move to 1000 IUs EOD. That will depend on my lab results.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    And I didnt mean to suggest that 50 was old. Just that I didnt understand the reluctance to becoming reliant on exogenous T at such an age. But now I appreciate that its about your experience with hCG being superior to hCG + T, if I am understanding you correctly.
    It's mostly about the experience. HCG helps you maintain your body's natural rythm. I would prefer to go further up the HPTA chain and directly stimulate LH, but so far there doesn't seem to be a safe long-term solution.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Bungloid48 View Post
    That's all it contains? There is no way. That is, by and no large, no special combination that would magically increase bioavailability, which for DHEA, I believe is null when ingested orally.
    I'm not disagreeing with you and I can't explain it either. I'm just pointing out the results of my blood test. My DHEA supp was the only thing I changed between tests and DHEA-S went from 100 to 300. Chuck Diesel used to say the "special" enteric coating allowed the DHEA to be absorbed slowly. Others say the same. Who knows?

  27. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Those results are almost two years old. I maintned that level with success for close to a year, but after reading Dr, John's posts decided to abandon treatment. His claims that high dose HCG burned out leydig cells spooked me. I took around 8 months off of all therapy but didn't like the way I felt. My mind wasn't as sharp and I lost muscle mass and stregnth. My bench dropped from 12 reps at 225 to 5.

    A few months ago I started back at a much lower dose and achieved decent levels (TT 957 and FT 233) within 6 weeks. This time my protocol included 2000 IUs of HCG per week, 1.5 grams of Arimidex per week, 25 mg of Progesterone and 75 mg of DHEA daily. I recently started a three day split and would like to move to 1000 IUs EOD. That will depend on my lab results.
    Even those values seem high, from what I've read. My doc's targets are TT 750 and FT 200, I think. Maybe that's on the low side.

    I dont think many 50 year olds (or any other age, for that matter) would be complaining about pressing 225 for sets of 5 (at your weak point), dude. You're pretty damn strong.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Even those values seem high, from what I've read. My doc's targets are TT 750 and FT 200, I think. Maybe that's on the low side.

    I dont think many 50 year olds (or any other age, for that matter) would be complaining about pressing 225 for sets of 5 (at your weak point), dude. You're pretty damn strong.
    Thanks, but you have to consider my size. I'm 6'4" 235.

  29. well, i have my 24boxes...lol

    dont notice too much, but i think my balls are back to normal size....taking 400iu 2x week.... insurance so ill keep a pokin..
  30. HCG and leydig cells..


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I've heard about leydig desensitization too.
    This is a byproduct of testicular aromatase, according to the studies I have read.

    I'd assume an AI would prevent this.. *shrug*

    To the original poster; you can try HMG as well, it will surely plump the boys back up.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. anybody restoring on old car?
    By tubbednova in forum General Chat
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 05-27-2011, 04:04 PM
  2. Restoring libido..
    By thenxtgrt1 in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 02-25-2009, 10:42 AM
  3. HCG/TRT restoring ED
    By engival in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 05-07-2007, 05:23 PM
  4. Need Help in restoring libido In PCT
    By Zombie in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 06-30-2006, 03:37 PM
Log in
Log in