HCG not restoring ball size.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    JanSz,
    I was actually doing 500iu's every day for 2 weeks when I drew blood (Dr. Shippen said either 1000 EOD or 500 ED was fine, I chose the latter). He told me to test after 2 weeks and again at 4 weeks. Quest really was slow on these results as that test was done 13 days ago (usually I get results in less than 7days). I had blood drawn in early am before injection.

    I have since changed to 1000iu EOD per Colkurtz's suggestion and when I test again it will be on this schedule. I will test the morning of day of no injection. Surprisingly I actually feel much better doing 1000 EOD versus 500 ED (I thought ED would be more even keel).
    Thanks;

    I have heard that large amount of HCG increases E2.
    Post on that and how you deal with it (amounts of AI), when you data alows.

    For quite a while I am doing
    380iu HCG EOD
    and (25.5units T + AI) on days between hcg.

    =0.255*200*7/2=178.5mg/week

    I am planning to change 380iu to 500iu possibly to 750iu.
    This dose really comes from possiblities that my current
    Pregnyl-1500 allows.
    I am nor excluding 1000iu in the future.

    Info on E2 would be handy.
    ------------------------------------------------
    From what I see, I got impression that your doc is not after meticoulous E2 testing.
    I see people posting all kind of tests used, but they are mostly from Quest (that is the good part).

    Dr John is adamant about this test:

    Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
    Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu

    I do that one but also

    Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)

    Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu

    Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)

    Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
    .
    .
    .
    If you would like to get this particular tests,
    make sure that script contains everything as I have written.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I have heard that large amount of HCG increases E2. Post on that and how you deal with it (amounts of AI), when you data alows.

    If you would like to get this particular tests,
    make sure that script contains everything as I have written.
    JanSz,
    Thanks for the info. I always make a point to read your posts and know how strongly you feel about these tests.

    You are right, Dr. Shippen only does the "general" Estradiol test. But for me right now I guess that's OK because I never really had E issues. I have managed to control it and my E tests always came back in the 20's and I never felt like E is a problem.

    As for controlling E, Dr. Shippen has me on very low dose Danazol (20mg). At one point my E actually dipped to 15 and he had me doing the danazol EOD (He doesn't like it below 20). I also supplement with transdermal resveratrol (PP's Sustain) and Nature's Way DIM (Dr. John likes that).

    On the other hand my big challenge is very high SHBG (in the 50's). Therefore I need TT in the upper 900's to get adequate FT per Dr. S's chart.

    My blood test should be here shortly so I should have some more info...
    •   
       

  3. Blood Test has arrived


    From 600iu HCG EOD to 500iu ED so the total HCG dosage almost doubled:

    Total Test went down from 680 to 628 (disappointing)
    SHBG went from 45 to 37 (good)
    E went from 22 to 21 (maybe that DIM works too good)

    Per docs chart I am still in the Free Test range of 110 (because although my TT declined, my SHBG declined too).

    Here's a surprise. My DHEA was always very low (85-100) for years, this time it came back at 300!! I don't think I was ever over 100 in the last 6-8 years.

    Just spoke with doc's office and was told doc wants me to forgo HCG and go right to a compounded T-cream with no HCG. I can see going to the T-cream as I need to hit TT of about 900 and clearly HCG won't get me there alone, but I was surprised he doesn't want me to do any HCG. I'm not sure I'm liking this change.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    From 600iu HCG EOD to 500iu ED so the total HCG dosage almost doubled:

    Total Test went down from 680 to 628 (disappointing)
    SHBG went from 45 to 37 (good)
    E went from 22 to 21 (maybe that DIM works too good)

    Per docs chart I am still in the Free Test range of 110 (because although my TT declined, my SHBG declined too).

    Here's a surprise. My DHEA was always very low (85-100) for years, this time it came back at 300!! I don't think I was ever over 100 in the last 6-8 years.

    Just spoke with doc's office and was told doc wants me to forgo HCG and go right to a compounded T-cream with no HCG. I can see going to the T-cream as I need to hit TT of about 900 and clearly HCG won't get me there alone, but I was surprised he doesn't want me to do any HCG. I'm not sure I'm liking this change.
    Using calculator, same as chart, just numerical,
    FreeT=129
    Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

    I am not a doctor so take my opinion with caution.

    I am not sure how much time you have alloted for experimentation, because that is a factor. If your sex life is passable, that may give you little extra time too.

    The other factor, in my opinion, unless you need to raise DHT, (if you go for T supplementation), you should go for testosterone shots, (frequent shots, EOD), forget transdermals.

    I would drop Danazol, even small dose of it.

    Your current goal is to reach FreeT~160, with help of HCG shots you can still consider your self "natural".
    When you start adding external testosterone, there is no need to limit your self to 160, your new objective will be
    FreeT(250-300)

    AFAIK, your doc likes 250, dr Delgado mentioned 300.
    I do not like either indicator. I go by BAT~575. I think BAT is more related to the objectve that we are pursuing.

    There is howewer this large SHBG that is not addressed.
    You should always keep that in mind.
    You have some inbalance someplace.
    Take care of that, I think your SHBG will fall in line.
    But take care of SHBG not by killing it directly, ballance your body, SHBG will follow.

    If you have resources or insurance, ask your doc for testing at Genova.
    NutrEval
    Comprehensive Thyroid Assesment
    EstroEssence Complete 24hr

    When you start talking to him this way, he will try to send you to other labs doing similar work.

    I suggest that you go for horses mouth.
    Similar situation as Quest vs other labs.
    Let others do the experimentation, you want the real McCoy.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    If your sex life is passable, that may give you little extra time too.

    The other factor, in my opinion, unless you need to raise DHT, (if you go for T supplementation), you should go for testosterone shots, (frequent shots, EOD), forget transdermals.

    Let others do the experimentation, you want the real McCoy.
    My sex life is fine. If I go for T supplementation (either cream or shots) I still need HCG so balls don't shrink, correct? Dose?

    I also have enough HCG to do the 1000 EOD as Colkurtz suggested. I may do that for another week and retest just to see if the HCG really could work. I hate to jump right into T if the HCG could do it, although I see Shippen's point, it's been 4 months and TT is still falling short.
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    My sex life is fine. If I go for T supplementation (either cream or shots) I still need HCG so balls don't shrink, correct? Dose?

    I also have enough HCG to do the 1000 EOD as Colkurtz suggested. I may do that for another week and retest just to see if the HCG really could work. I hate to jump right into T if the HCG could do it, although I see Shippen's point, it's been 4 months and TT is still falling short.
    Reread my post.
    It is not as much about TotalT as it is about SHBG.
    Your present TT=628 begins to be in acceptable range.
    If your SHBG fall down to SHBG=25 from present SHBG=37
    you would have that desirable FreeT=159

    It is really up to you, but if you go for shots, you would loose argument, because you are going to be "fixed".
    Now you are in position to ask him for Genova tests and have a chance to find a real reason why your SHBG is high.

    As far as HCG, I like the idea of getting as much as possible T from you testis, that is why when I found that I should be able to safely use a dose in range 500-1000IU EOD I will switch to that myself.

    Keep in mind that there is a reference that supports 306iu EOD as 100% biological replacement.
    Usually people are using much less than that.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    My sex life is fine. If I go for T supplementation (either cream or shots) I still need HCG so balls don't shrink, correct? Dose?

    I also have enough HCG to do the 1000 EOD as Colkurtz suggested. I may do that for another week and retest just to see if the HCG really could work. I hate to jump right into T if the HCG could do it, although I see Shippen's point, it's been 4 months and TT is still falling short.

    I think you need at least 6 weeks at 1000 EOD to determine if it's working fro you. I inject at night and draw approximately 36 hours later in the morning. I've read that T levels are highest around 7 AM, and that HCG peaks in 36 hours. My levels might test a bit lower on your schedule...just a thought.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Using calculator, same as chart, just numerical,
    FreeT=129
    Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator

    I am not a doctor so take my opinion with caution.

    I am not sure how much time you have alloted for experimentation, because that is a factor. If your sex life is passable, that may give you little extra time too.

    The other factor, in my opinion, unless you need to raise DHT, (if you go for T supplementation), you should go for testosterone shots, (frequent shots, EOD), forget transdermals.

    I would drop Danazol, even small dose of it.

    Your current goal is to reach FreeT~160, with help of HCG shots you can still consider your self "natural".
    When you start adding external testosterone, there is no need to limit your self to 160, your new objective will be
    FreeT(250-300)

    AFAIK, your doc likes 250, dr Delgado mentioned 300.
    I do not like either indicator. I go by BAT~575. I think BAT is more related to the objectve that we are pursuing.

    There is howewer this large SHBG that is not addressed.
    You should always keep that in mind.
    You have some inbalance someplace.
    Take care of that, I think your SHBG will fall in line.
    But take care of SHBG not by killing it directly, ballance your body, SHBG will follow.

    If you have resources or insurance, ask your doc for testing at Genova.
    NutrEval
    Comprehensive Thyroid Assesment
    EstroEssence Complete 24hr

    When you start talking to him this way, he will try to send you to other labs doing similar work.

    I suggest that you go for horses mouth.
    Similar situation as Quest vs other labs.
    Let others do the experimentation, you want the real McCoy.
    This time around my doctor prescribed 25 mg of progesterone daily, a low dose according to him. He claims it enhances HCG's ability to get the testes working.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    As far as HCG, I like the idea of getting as much as possible T from you testis, that is why when I found that I should be able to safely use a dose in range 500-1000IU EOD I will switch to that myself.
    Agreed. I plan to discuss this all personally with Dr. Shippen as soon as I can (I simply got a relayed message from his nurse). In the meantime I think I'll hold off on the compunded T-Gel, stay on the HCG 1000iu EOD and retest next week and look into those Genova tests.
    Thanks for the input.
    BTW, I feel pretty damn good so maybe I won't change anything!!

  10. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Agreed. I plan to discuss this all personally with Dr. Shippen as soon as I can (I simply got a relayed message from his nurse). In the meantime I think I'll hold off on the compunded T-Gel, stay on the HCG 1000iu EOD and retest next week and look into those Genova tests.
    Thanks for the input.
    BTW, I feel pretty damn good so maybe I won't change anything!!
    Good luck!

  11. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I would drop Danazol, even small dose of it.
    My SHBG when I started with Dr. Shippen in November was 56! It is now 37. That's a drop of almost 20 points! He claims the Danazol lowers SHBG and it sure seems to have helped alot for me. He actually prescribes it for it's anti-SHBG action and not as an anti-E. I know it's not referenced in any google search but he claims it works and I sure saw the drop.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Good luck!
    Thanks.
  13. DHEA booster


    I guess the best part of my bloodwork was my increase in DHEA.
    If anyone is looking to boost DHEA check out Raw Test (DHEA Booster) by Get Diesel. My DHEA was always low - usually below 100. I tried pretty much every supplement to boost it to no avail. I gave this product a try a few weeks ago and bingo -300!
  14. My old test results


    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    It was around 110-120 doing 600 EOD per my doctors chart because my SHBG is so high (around 50). Dr. Shippen uses the chart where you calculate free test by intersecting total test and SHBG.

    I do feel better though. Imagine when I started my total test was 320 with SHBG of 50! My free test was around 40!

    I should have blood test results tommorrow from doing 1000 EOD and I will post them. I did take your advice last week and quit doing 500iu's ED and went to 1000iu's EOD. I think my body likes that even better.
    I found a panel from my second blood draw dated 8/22/06. Before I strated TRT my total testosterone was 475. After one year I quit testosterone and went on 6 weeks of HCG therapy at 10,000 IUs per week. I then stopped everything for two weeks and drew blood on 6/07/06. My total was only 97. For the next 10 weeks I injected 10,000 IUs weekly and drew for the panel attached.

    6 months later I reduced my dose to 8000 IUs and included Arimidex to combat rising estrogen. My total went up over 1400 with free at 425. Approximately one year after I started this treatment I quit everything and my baseline returned to its pre-TRT level of 475.
    Attached Images Attached Images
  15. Spoke with my doc about T cream


    He thought I hit a wall with the HCG. I've been doing for over 4 months now and seemed to have hit a ceiling at around 650 TT. I recently doubled my dose from 600iu's EOD to 1000iu's EOD and my TT actually dropped a bit. With my SHBG around 40 my free T is stuck around 110.

    I envy your success with HCG alone Colkurtz.

    Anyway, Dr. S wants to use compounded T cream because my DHT is on the low side 33 (25-75 Quest) and my E has always been pretty low (20 - 24). We will keep an eye on the DHT (I prefer to keep my hair). My starting dose is 0.7ml (200mg/ml compound) so it looks like that is 140mg a day. I was preferring shots but after we spoke I feel better about the cream. He thinks I fit the "cream profile" better than shots right now but we can always change.

    I will also continue lower dose HCG to prevent balls from shrinking.

    What do you guys think?

    BTW, If I apply at 7:00am (per doc) how long do I have to wait before swim or shower? I usually go to gym around 8:00am and sweat a lot. Maybe apply after gym? I forgot to ask doc about this.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    He thought I hit a wall with the HCG. I've been doing for over 4 months now and seemed to have hit a ceiling at around 650 TT. I recently doubled my dose from 600iu's EOD to 1000iu's EOD and my TT actually dropped a bit. With my SHBG around 40 my free T is stuck around 110.

    I envy your success with HCG alone Colkurtz.

    Anyway, Dr. S wants to use compounded T cream because my DHT is on the low side 33 (25-75 Quest) and my E has always been pretty low (20 - 24). We will keep an eye on the DHT (I prefer to keep my hair). My starting dose is 0.7ml (200mg/ml compound) so it looks like that is 140mg a day. I was preferring shots but after we spoke I feel better about the cream. He thinks I fit the "cream profile" better than shots right now but we can always change.

    I will also continue lower dose HCG to prevent balls from shrinking.

    What do you guys think?

    BTW, If I apply at 7:00am (per doc) how long do I have to wait before swim or shower? I usually go to gym around 8:00am and sweat a lot. Maybe apply after gym? I forgot to ask doc about this.
    14 mg/day, that's a healthy starting dose, which should get you up towards your target fast. That's equal to about 125-130 (70% absorption on avg) mgs of T cyp per week.

    Generally, I believe it's safe to workout 2 hours post application. I would recommend putting it on after you shower, post work out, as working out even 2 hours post application will reduce absorption by some measure.

    Hope it goes well for you. Good luck.

    Best,
    J

  17. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    14 mg/day, that's a healthy starting dose, which should get you up towards your target fast. That's equal to about 125-130 (70% absorption on avg) mgs of T cyp per week.
    Thanks J. I wasn't quite sure how that looked as a starting dose. From what I read here, many complain about starting too low - testicles shut down but no benefit.

    Since T is highest in early AM, I was thinking about applying around 6:00am (when I get up). Maybe hit gym around 9:00am. That would give me about 3 hours before sweat/shower.

    Does 200iu HCG EOD sound right as an HCG "balls maintenance dose". I think that's what doc said but I have to check.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    He thought I hit a wall with the HCG. I've been doing for over 4 months now and seemed to have hit a ceiling at around 650 TT. I recently doubled my dose from 600iu's EOD to 1000iu's EOD and my TT actually dropped a bit. With my SHBG around 40 my free T is stuck around 110.

    I envy your success with HCG alone Colkurtz.

    Anyway, Dr. S wants to use compounded T cream because my DHT is on the low side 33 (25-75 Quest) and my E has always been pretty low (20 - 24). We will keep an eye on the DHT (I prefer to keep my hair). My starting dose is 0.7ml (200mg/ml compound) so it looks like that is 140mg a day. I was preferring shots but after we spoke I feel better about the cream. He thinks I fit the "cream profile" better than shots right now but we can always change.

    I will also continue lower dose HCG to prevent balls from shrinking.

    What do you guys think?

    BTW, If I apply at 7:00am (per doc) how long do I have to wait before swim or shower? I usually go to gym around 8:00am and sweat a lot. Maybe apply after gym? I forgot to ask doc about this.
    I think you ought to give the higher dose of HCG a chance. I showed you that my total was only at 97 after 6 weeks at 10,000 IUs and two weeks off. A year on test cream virtually neutered me. I really don't think you used enough to start with, and I don't think you've given the higher dose enough time. Right now you are feeling pretty good. You can always change your protocol. What's the rush?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I think you ought to give the higher dose of HCG a chance. I showed you that my total was only at 97 after 6 weeks at 10,000 IUs and two weeks off. A year on test cream virtually neutered me. I really don't think you used enough to start with, and I don't think you've given the higher dose enough time. Right now you are feeling pretty good. You can always change your protocol. What's the rush?
    I dont really understand the difference if there is no real prospect of re-starting the system. And taking the hCG should preserve testicular function. Colkurtz, were you taking hCG when you were on the cream?

    Based on my research, taking high doses of hCG is more likely to increase E2, though that doesnt sound like it's an issue for Gator, and is less likely to give the same sense of wellbeing as the combined protocol. But as they say, your milage may very. I think I would go with the combined protocol, particularly given your age Gator. That's easy for me to say, as I went for the combined protocol, and I am 37.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Thanks J. I wasn't quite sure how that looked as a starting dose. From what I read here, many complain about starting too low - testicles shut down but no benefit.

    Since T is highest in early AM, I was thinking about applying around 6:00am (when I get up). Maybe hit gym around 9:00am. That would give me about 3 hours before sweat/shower.

    Does 200iu HCG EOD sound right as an HCG "balls maintenance dose". I think that's what doc said but I have to check.
    I agree, many that start with 2.5-5 mgs shut their systems down, and then feel worse than before starting.

    With that dose, and since it is a cream, I think you're fine with 3 hours. I'd expect it to be 95% absorbed by that time.

    200 IUs EOD equals 700 IUs per week. From what I know, maintenance is 550-750/week, typically. So that sounds right. Jans says 306 EOD, and he takes 380, to error on the high side. I think 200 IUs is good to start, based on the consensus. But I'm sure that Jans dose is safe, as he a good study of this stuff.

    I'll keep my fingers crossed for you . . . and the Gators. The close loss to Tenn. could be the death knell.

    Best,
    J

  21. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I'll keep my fingers crossed for you . . . and the Gators. The close loss to Tenn. could be the death knell. J
    Yeah. That's why they call 'em the "Baby Gators". All of last years team is in the NBA.

    J, Did you ever do the cream or did you just start with injection? Why inject over cream for you?

    I'm really torn on how to proceed. I see doc's point for introducing T as my stalled progress over last 4 months. I had an initial TT boost to 702 when I started HCG at 500 EOD. Then as we went to 600, then 1000 I actually decreased TT slightly at each dose increase. My doc is a patient guy and I think if he saw any increase at all - no matter how slight - I'd still be trying the HCG.

    Still I hear what Colkurtz is saying about trying one more time. Maybe I'm just a little impatient myself - you get that when when you lived with free T of 40 for 6 or 8 years and didn't know any better. Thanks to you all for the input.
  22. Are you SURE you are not using too much water? Might be way too dilute


    When you say you "took all the sterile water out of the first vial, ejected that into the vial with the powder and shook it a little bit" that leads me to believe you diluted it excessively. I use 5ml of water, if memory serves per my Dr's instructions. 15 unit on the syringe then gives me around 325 per shot. Note that my Dr uses less water than others for a less dilute, more concentrated solution.

    In any event, at only 19 perhaps you should see a leader in the field. If there is ANY chance at restart you owe it to yourself.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I dont really understand the difference if there is no real prospect of re-starting the system. And taking the hCG should preserve testicular function. Colkurtz, were you taking hCG when you were on the cream?

    Based on my research, taking high doses of hCG is more likely to increase E2, though that doesnt sound like it's an issue for Gator, and is less likely to give the same sense of wellbeing as the combined protocol. But as they say, your milage may very. I think I would go with the combined protocol, particularly given your age Gator. That's easy for me to say, as I went for the combined protocol, and I am 37.
    I've done both. For me nothing compares to HCG alone. Libido and energy are much greater on HCG when you are a responder. My doctor would think Gator is too young not to try HCG first. I don't think he is old - maybe because I'll be 50 in two weeks. If you look at the lab I posted you'll see total testosterone of 1292 with free at 358 (my own testosterone) and estradiol at 16. That was when I was on 10,000 IUs of HCG per week without testosterone supplementation. Of course after six months my estrogen increased. I had to take Arimidex. The cream will raise estrogen levels as well. When I was on it my estradiol broke 60 and DHT went through the roof.
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 03-08-2008 at 01:09 AM.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I've done both. For me nothing compares to HCG alone. Libido and energy are much greater on HCG when you are a responder. My doctor would think Gator is too young not to try HCG first. I don't think he is old - maybe because I'll be 50 in two weeks. If you look at the lab I posted you'll see total testosterone of 1292 with free at 358 (my own testosterone) and estradiol at 16. That was when I was on 10,000 IUs of HCG per week without testosterone supplementation. Of course after six months my estrogen increased. I had to take Arimidex. The cream will raise estrogen levels as well. When I was on it my estradiol broke 60 and DHT went through the roof.
    I guess I dont understand the difference of it being your own testosterone if you need to take the hCG to produce, but if you feel better (and those killer numbers dont lie), power to you, brother.

    Is your doc concerned that your TT and FT are too high? Do you feel overstimulated?

    I'm glad you are doing so well.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I've done both. For me nothing compares to HCG alone. Libido and energy are much greater on HCG when you are a responder. My doctor would think Gator is too young not to try HCG first. I don't think he is old - maybe because I'll be 50 in two weeks. If you look at the lab I posted you'll see total testosterone of 1292 with free at 358 (my own testosterone) and estradiol at 16. That was when I was on 10,000 IUs of HCG per week without testosterone supplementation. Of course after six months my estrogen increased. I had to take Arimidex. The cream will raise estrogen levels as well. When I was on it my estradiol broke 60 and DHT went through the roof.
    And I didnt mean to suggest that 50 was old. Just that I didnt understand the reluctance to becoming reliant on exogenous T at such an age. But now I appreciate that its about your experience with hCG being superior to hCG + T, if I am understanding you correctly.
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