HCG not restoring ball size.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I would go back to 1000 EOD. HCG peaks in 36 hours and lasts 72.
    Thanks for the info. I'll definitely try that.

    So when you were doing 8,000iu's to 10,000iu's a week you were actually doing 2,500 - 3,000iu's EOD?? Seems like a huge dose EOD.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Thanks for the info. I'll definitely try that.

    So when you were doing 8,000iu's to 10,000iu's a week you were actually doing 2,500 - 3,000iu's EOD?? Seems like a huge dose EOD.
    No. I've always shot twice per week. Two weeks ago I changed my split to 3 days and like the way it feels.

    I started HCG after a year on test cream alone. I was heavily suppressed, and my balls had atrophied. The high doses worked well for me. Eventually estrogen kicked in. I had to use Arimidex and reduce my dose, but the results were fantastic. I got my balls back.

    BTW. I live in Miami. When I was a kid we used to make a stew called Gator Meat for our tail gate parties. It didn't do us much good. I went to the U of M in the 70s. Back then the canes were so bad they had to give us the tickets to get us to the stadium.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    No. I've always shot twice per week.
    So your doses were even higher! Twice per week back when you did 8,000iu's you were doing 4,000iu's per shot, correct? How did that feel?

    Are you still on the T Cream? Doc wants to put me on that eventually (HCG not getting my T high enough alone) although I read injections are better. I may ask him to reconsider. Blood test results tommorrow.

    Don't worry about Canes. They just pulled a Top 5 recruiting class! (Of course the Gators have had four Top 5 recruiting classes in a row! Urban Meyer is a recruiting fanatic).

  4. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    So your doses were even higher! Twice per week back when you did 8,000iu's you were doing 4,000iu's per shot, correct? How did that feel?

    Are you still on the T Cream? Doc wants to put me on that eventually (HCG not getting my T high enough alone) although I read injections are better. I may ask him to reconsider. Blood test results tommorrow.

    Don't worry about Canes. They just pulled a Top 5 recruiting class! (Of course the Gators have had four Top 5 recruiting classes in a row! Urban Meyer is a recruiting fanatic).
    I felt great on the higher doses. I also feel good on the dose I'm taking now. I don't use testosterone cream anymore, and I don't miss it. For me HCG is the way to go.

    I always draw blood the same day of the week at the same time (Monday 7 AM). Test levels vary during the day and I don't want to skew the results. I think you'll see success at the higher dose you're taking. Give it some time before you include injections. I've done those too. There's nothing better than the feeling of your own if you can make it.

  5. any weird neg sides accounted for from the HCG use? besides the conversion to E?
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  6. Hcg


    Did your libido change for the worse when you stopped the test cream? Most say test cream helps with libido and ED?

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    No. I've always shot twice per week. Two weeks ago I changed my split to 3 days and like the way it feels.

    I started HCG after a year on test cream alone. I was heavily suppressed, and my balls had atrophied. The high doses worked well for me. Eventually estrogen kicked in. I had to use Arimidex and reduce my dose, but the results were fantastic. I got my balls back.

    BTW. I live in Miami. When I was a kid we used to make a stew called Gator Meat for our tail gate parties. It didn't do us much good. I went to the U of M in the 70s. Back then the canes were so bad they had to give us the tickets to get us to the stadium.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    any weird neg sides accounted for from the HCG use? besides the conversion to E?
    HCG took my TT from 300's to damn near 700 in 30 days with only the slightest increase in E.
    Sides were all positive IMO.

  8. Colkurtz, another question: did your DHT get out of whack on the cream to the point of hair loss??

    Also, is there any reason for your injecting HCG at night versus morning?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    Did your libido change for the worse when you stopped the test cream? Most say test cream helps with libido and ED?
    When I stopped the cream my total went from 1711 to 97 which is far below my baseline, so of course libido was an issue. However, my libido was much stronger on HCG alone then it ever was on the cream.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Colkurtz, another question: did your DHT get out of whack on the cream to the point of hair loss??

    Also, is there any reason for your injecting HCG at night versus morning?
    My DHT level was scary! I think my doctor told me to inject at night. It was a while ago. I'm not sure what the benefit is, but I've always done it that way and like to be consistent.
  11. Hcg


    How long would say it took, from the time stopping the cream and starting HCG, for your libido to return? Also, anybody know if HCG has any negative effects on prostate like testosterone arguably may?

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    When I stopped the cream my total went from 1711 to 97 which is far below my baseline, so of course libido was an issue. However, my libido was much stronger on HCG alone then it ever was on the cream.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    How long would say it took, from the time stopping the cream and starting HCG, for your libido to return? Also, anybody know if HCG has any negative effects on prostate like testosterone arguably may?
    I don't recall exactly; it was a few years ago. I would say that after a few weeks I started feeling better and really noticed a difference after a month. 6 to 8 weeks after the treatment my total test was at 1199. Trust me...that feels a lot better than 97.

    I've read that HCG inhibits cancer cells in the prostate. However, if not in check estrogen levels will increase, and that may not be good for your prostate.
  13. Hcg


    I may have missed this in one of your previous posts, however, what caused you to want to stop the testosterone and go solely with HCH? Thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I don't recall exactly; it was a few years ago. I would say that after a few weeks I started feeling better and really noticed a difference after a month. 6 to 8 weeks after the treatment my total test was at 1199. Trust me...that feels a lot better than 97.

    I've read that HCG inhibits cancer cells in the prostate. However, if not in check estrogen levels will increase, and that may not be good for your prostate.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    I may have missed this in one of your previous posts, however, what caused you to want to stop the testosterone and go solely with HCH? Thanks

    On the cream my DHT and estrogen were out of control and my nuts shrunk. I asked my doc at the time if I should cycle off, use Arimidex and or HCG. He told me not to worry. I got a new doctor. He told me that I might respond to HCG and not need testosterone.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    On the cream my DHT and estrogen were out of control and my nuts shrunk.
    How long were you on the cream? Did you have hair loss issues?

    I agree with you - Arimidex/Liquidex would have helped with the E, and most good prostate supps with Saw Palmetto can help with the DHT - within reason. Nizoral shampoo can also help with DHT caused hair loss.

    Many here prefer T injections but the cream/gel is still popular. I understand the cream/gel actually helps more with libido but the injections don't raise DHT or E as much. Apparently it has to do with the cream/gels aromatizing more through the skin.

    I don't do either but in case HCG doesn't get me "all the way there" I'm trying to measure the pluses and minuses of each. I envy Colkurtz who got such a dramatic boost from HCG alone. I don't think I have ever read about someone getting such a huge increase in T on just HCG.

    Colkurtz, I may have missed this but WHERE do you inject. I do side of stomach sub-Q.
  16. hcg


    Your candid responses are much appreciated. Thanks again.

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    On the cream my DHT and estrogen were out of control and my nuts shrunk. I asked my doc at the time if I should cycle off, use Arimidex and or HCG. He told me not to worry. I got a new doctor. He told me that I might respond to HCG and not need testosterone.

  17. I thought the injections didn't raise DHT as much, but raised E more than gel?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    How long were you on the cream? Did you have hair loss issues?

    I agree with you - Arimidex/Liquidex would have helped with the E, and most good prostate supps with Saw Palmetto can help with the DHT - within reason. Nizoral shampoo can also help with DHT caused hair loss.

    Many here prefer T injections but the cream/gel is still popular. I understand the cream/gel actually helps more with libido but the injections don't raise DHT or E as much. Apparently it has to do with the cream/gels aromatizing more through the skin.

    I don't do either but in case HCG doesn't get me "all the way there" I'm trying to measure the pluses and minuses of each. I envy Colkurtz who got such a dramatic boost from HCG alone. I don't think I have ever read about someone getting such a huge increase in T on just HCG.

    Colkurtz, I may have missed this but WHERE do you inject. I do side of stomach sub-Q.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    How long were you on the cream? Did you have hair loss issues?

    I agree with you - Arimidex/Liquidex would have helped with the E, and most good prostate supps with Saw Palmetto can help with the DHT - within reason. Nizoral shampoo can also help with DHT caused hair loss.

    Many here prefer T injections but the cream/gel is still popular. I understand the cream/gel actually helps more with libido but the injections don't raise DHT or E as much. Apparently it has to do with the cream/gels aromatizing more through the skin.

    I don't do either but in case HCG doesn't get me "all the way there" I'm trying to measure the pluses and minuses of each. I envy Colkurtz who got such a dramatic boost from HCG alone. I don't think I have ever read about someone getting such a huge increase in T on just HCG.

    Colkurtz, I may have missed this but WHERE do you inject. I do side of stomach sub-Q.
    I am genetically blessed with DHT resistant hair. My DHT
    level could have made me resemble a chemotherapy patient had that not been the case.

    I've read your posts and think you will respond to HCG the way I have. I think your new dose could put you over the top. Give it a chance before you start on the exogenous. There is no rush - you can always include it. You'll find that your test levels are at their highest around 7 AM, and that HCG peaks testosterone levels in around 36 hours. A perfect time to draw would be Monday at 7 AM after a Saturday night injection or Tuesday & AM after a Sunday night injection. Don't be surprised to find your levels similar to mine.

    Since you are a responder you should already be feeling better. Give it 8 weeks at the proper dose and you'll really feel the difference. Exogenous will raise your libido and give you a sense of well being, but HCG will make you feel like a Gator again.

    What was you free test at 700?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by professorJohn View Post
    I thought the injections didn't raise DHT as much, but raised E more than gel?
    Either can raise both, but for some reason the cream gets your DHT levels up faster. DHT will increase your libido.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    What was you free test at 700?
    It was around 110-120 doing 600 EOD per my doctors chart because my SHBG is so high (around 50). Dr. Shippen uses the chart where you calculate free test by intersecting total test and SHBG.

    I do feel better though. Imagine when I started my total test was 320 with SHBG of 50! My free test was around 40!

    I should have blood test results tommorrow from doing 1000 EOD and I will post them. I did take your advice last week and quit doing 500iu's ED and went to 1000iu's EOD. I think my body likes that even better.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    It was around 110-120 doing 600 EOD per my doctors chart because my SHBG is so high (around 50). Dr. Shippen uses the chart where you calculate free test by intersecting total test and SHBG.

    I do feel better though. Imagine when I started my total test was 320 with SHBG of 50! My free test was around 40!

    I should have blood test results tommorrow from doing 1000 EOD and I will post them. I did take your advice last week and quit doing 500iu's ED and went to 1000iu's EOD. I think my body likes that even better.
    It's all about how you feel. Good luck, but I don't think you'll need it.

  22. Hey fellas. Hopefully you dont mind me imposing on this thread.

    I'm currently on 100 mg/week of T cyp (shoot once weekly) and 550 IUs of hCG (the two days prior to T cyp, 275 IUs). I guess this is loosely referred to as the Crisler protocol.

    My doc presented the option of hCG monotherapy, but said that most guys dont get the same sense of wellbeing from hCG alone. I was also concerned about desensitizing the leydig cells, however misguided that thought may have been. And I was feeling so badly, I was anxious to start feeling better. So I decided to go with the above protocol.

    I've been on this program for 5 weeks. I am drawing blood tomorrow. Pre treatment, my TT was 350; free T 45; estradiol 20. I'm 37.
    I will post my new labs once I get them.

    I'm definitely starting to feel better. Do you think there is any sense (advantage) in reverting to hCG mono therapy? My immediate feeling is that since they are both for life, why bother? But perhaps there is a compelling reason of which I am unaware. On the boards, it seems that I seldomly come across someone that's had success on hCG monotherapy.

    Thanks in advance for any help. And hope I havent unduly imposed on this thread.

    And how 'bout them Gators???

    Best,
    J

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Do you think there is any sense (advantage) in reverting to hCG mono therapy? My immediate feeling is that since they are both for life, why bother? But perhaps there is a compelling reason of which I am unaware. On the boards, it seems that I seldomly come across someone that's had success on hCG monotherapy.
    Welcome Jinxie. Good to have your input. I agree with Colkurtz when he points out the most important thing is "how you feel". That really is the bottom line, whether your therapy is T + HCG or just HCG alone.

    That being said, I do believe that there are definitely different response levels in people doing HCG. Colkurtz and I seem to be "super" HCG responders getting big TT increases (BTW is it just me or does it seem the older you are the MORE you respond to HCG??). Anyway, our high responses may be unusual. It may be so unusual that many docs simply go to the T + HCG protocol right off the bat.

    My doc (Shippen) who is well known for his HRT work (and his book) believes in really focusing on the "HCG alone" protocol first as he believes (as do I) that if your body can do it that's best. He plays down the Leydig sensitivity issue as he told me my current 1000iu EOD is "no big deal, well within a practical and sustainable dose". Look at Colkurtz who was doing 10x that and still going strong!

    No matter which protocol you are on the most important thing is that it works and you feel better! The numbers certainly do matter but in the end it's all about how you feel. If you are, in fact, feeling alot better on T + HCG combo then my advice to you is stay on the T + HCG.
    BTW, my TT, FT, and E numbers were EXACTLY the same as yours pre-treatment! I should have my bloodwork today and when you get yours we can compare treatment results. PM me if you like. (Free T of 40 really sucks doesn't/didn't it)??

  24. Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    It was around 110-120 doing 600 EOD per my doctors chart because my SHBG is so high (around 50). Dr. Shippen uses the chart where you calculate free test by intersecting total test and SHBG.

    I do feel better though. Imagine when I started my total test was 320 with SHBG of 50! My free test was around 40!

    I should have blood test results tommorrow from doing 1000 EOD and I will post them. I did take your advice last week and quit doing 500iu's ED and went to 1000iu's EOD. I think my body likes that even better.
    I am not clear how long have you been on (1000iu EOD) before you had a blood draw.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    I am not clear how long have you been on (1000iu EOD) before you had a blood draw.
    JanSz,
    I was actually doing 500iu's every day for 2 weeks when I drew blood (Dr. Shippen said either 1000 EOD or 500 ED was fine, I chose the latter). He told me to test after 2 weeks and again at 4 weeks. Quest really was slow on these results as that test was done 13 days ago (usually I get results in less than 7days). I had blood drawn in early am before injection.

    I have since changed to 1000iu EOD per Colkurtz's suggestion and when I test again it will be on this schedule. I will test the morning of day of no injection. Surprisingly I actually feel much better doing 1000 EOD versus 500 ED (I thought ED would be more even keel).
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