HCG not restoring ball size.
- 03-05-2008, 07:13 AM
- 03-05-2008, 07:40 AM
- 03-05-2008, 07:43 AM
level could have made me resemble a chemotherapy patient had that not been the case.
I've read your posts and think you will respond to HCG the way I have. I think your new dose could put you over the top. Give it a chance before you start on the exogenous. There is no rush - you can always include it. You'll find that your test levels are at their highest around 7 AM, and that HCG peaks testosterone levels in around 36 hours. A perfect time to draw would be Monday at 7 AM after a Saturday night injection or Tuesday & AM after a Sunday night injection. Don't be surprised to find your levels similar to mine.
Since you are a responder you should already be feeling better. Give it 8 weeks at the proper dose and you'll really feel the difference. Exogenous will raise your libido and give you a sense of well being, but HCG will make you feel like a Gator again.
What was you free test at 700?
I do feel better though. Imagine when I started my total test was 320 with SHBG of 50! My free test was around 40!
I should have blood test results tommorrow from doing 1000 EOD and I will post them. I did take your advice last week and quit doing 500iu's ED and went to 1000iu's EOD. I think my body likes that even better.
Hey fellas. Hopefully you dont mind me imposing on this thread.
I'm currently on 100 mg/week of T cyp (shoot once weekly) and 550 IUs of hCG (the two days prior to T cyp, 275 IUs). I guess this is loosely referred to as the Crisler protocol.
My doc presented the option of hCG monotherapy, but said that most guys dont get the same sense of wellbeing from hCG alone. I was also concerned about desensitizing the leydig cells, however misguided that thought may have been. And I was feeling so badly, I was anxious to start feeling better. So I decided to go with the above protocol.
I've been on this program for 5 weeks. I am drawing blood tomorrow. Pre treatment, my TT was 350; free T 45; estradiol 20. I'm 37.
I will post my new labs once I get them.
I'm definitely starting to feel better. Do you think there is any sense (advantage) in reverting to hCG mono therapy? My immediate feeling is that since they are both for life, why bother? But perhaps there is a compelling reason of which I am unaware. On the boards, it seems that I seldomly come across someone that's had success on hCG monotherapy.
Thanks in advance for any help. And hope I havent unduly imposed on this thread.
And how 'bout them Gators???
That being said, I do believe that there are definitely different response levels in people doing HCG. Colkurtz and I seem to be "super" HCG responders getting big TT increases (BTW is it just me or does it seem the older you are the MORE you respond to HCG??). Anyway, our high responses may be unusual. It may be so unusual that many docs simply go to the T + HCG protocol right off the bat.
My doc (Shippen) who is well known for his HRT work (and his book) believes in really focusing on the "HCG alone" protocol first as he believes (as do I) that if your body can do it that's best. He plays down the Leydig sensitivity issue as he told me my current 1000iu EOD is "no big deal, well within a practical and sustainable dose". Look at Colkurtz who was doing 10x that and still going strong!
No matter which protocol you are on the most important thing is that it works and you feel better! The numbers certainly do matter but in the end it's all about how you feel. If you are, in fact, feeling alot better on T + HCG combo then my advice to you is stay on the T + HCG.
BTW, my TT, FT, and E numbers were EXACTLY the same as yours pre-treatment! I should have my bloodwork today and when you get yours we can compare treatment results. PM me if you like. (Free T of 40 really sucks doesn't/didn't it)??
I was actually doing 500iu's every day for 2 weeks when I drew blood (Dr. Shippen said either 1000 EOD or 500 ED was fine, I chose the latter). He told me to test after 2 weeks and again at 4 weeks. Quest really was slow on these results as that test was done 13 days ago (usually I get results in less than 7days). I had blood drawn in early am before injection.
I have since changed to 1000iu EOD per Colkurtz's suggestion and when I test again it will be on this schedule. I will test the morning of day of no injection. Surprisingly I actually feel much better doing 1000 EOD versus 500 ED (I thought ED would be more even keel).
I have heard that large amount of HCG increases E2.
Post on that and how you deal with it (amounts of AI), when you data alows.
For quite a while I am doing
380iu HCG EOD
and (25.5units T + AI) on days between hcg.
I am planning to change 380iu to 500iu possibly to 750iu.
This dose really comes from possiblities that my current
I am nor excluding 1000iu in the future.
Info on E2 would be handy.
From what I see, I got impression that your doc is not after meticoulous E2 testing.
I see people posting all kind of tests used, but they are mostly from Quest (that is the good part).
Dr John is adamant about this test:
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
I do that one but also
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
Quest Diagnostics: Test Menu
If you would like to get this particular tests,
make sure that script contains everything as I have written.
Thanks for the info. I always make a point to read your posts and know how strongly you feel about these tests.
You are right, Dr. Shippen only does the "general" Estradiol test. But for me right now I guess that's OK because I never really had E issues. I have managed to control it and my E tests always came back in the 20's and I never felt like E is a problem.
As for controlling E, Dr. Shippen has me on very low dose Danazol (20mg). At one point my E actually dipped to 15 and he had me doing the danazol EOD (He doesn't like it below 20). I also supplement with transdermal resveratrol (PP's Sustain) and Nature's Way DIM (Dr. John likes that).
On the other hand my big challenge is very high SHBG (in the 50's). Therefore I need TT in the upper 900's to get adequate FT per Dr. S's chart.
My blood test should be here shortly so I should have some more info...
Blood Test has arrived
From 600iu HCG EOD to 500iu ED so the total HCG dosage almost doubled:
Total Test went down from 680 to 628 (disappointing)
SHBG went from 45 to 37 (good)
E went from 22 to 21 (maybe that DIM works too good)
Per docs chart I am still in the Free Test range of 110 (because although my TT declined, my SHBG declined too).
Here's a surprise. My DHEA was always very low (85-100) for years, this time it came back at 300!! I don't think I was ever over 100 in the last 6-8 years.
Just spoke with doc's office and was told doc wants me to forgo HCG and go right to a compounded T-cream with no HCG. I can see going to the T-cream as I need to hit TT of about 900 and clearly HCG won't get me there alone, but I was surprised he doesn't want me to do any HCG. I'm not sure I'm liking this change.
Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator
I am not a doctor so take my opinion with caution.
I am not sure how much time you have alloted for experimentation, because that is a factor. If your sex life is passable, that may give you little extra time too.
The other factor, in my opinion, unless you need to raise DHT, (if you go for T supplementation), you should go for testosterone shots, (frequent shots, EOD), forget transdermals.
I would drop Danazol, even small dose of it.
Your current goal is to reach FreeT~160, with help of HCG shots you can still consider your self "natural".
When you start adding external testosterone, there is no need to limit your self to 160, your new objective will be
AFAIK, your doc likes 250, dr Delgado mentioned 300.
I do not like either indicator. I go by BAT~575. I think BAT is more related to the objectve that we are pursuing.
There is howewer this large SHBG that is not addressed.
You should always keep that in mind.
You have some inbalance someplace.
Take care of that, I think your SHBG will fall in line.
But take care of SHBG not by killing it directly, ballance your body, SHBG will follow.
If you have resources or insurance, ask your doc for testing at Genova.
Comprehensive Thyroid Assesment
EstroEssence Complete 24hr
When you start talking to him this way, he will try to send you to other labs doing similar work.
I suggest that you go for horses mouth.
Similar situation as Quest vs other labs.
Let others do the experimentation, you want the real McCoy.
I also have enough HCG to do the 1000 EOD as Colkurtz suggested. I may do that for another week and retest just to see if the HCG really could work. I hate to jump right into T if the HCG could do it, although I see Shippen's point, it's been 4 months and TT is still falling short.
It is not as much about TotalT as it is about SHBG.
Your present TT=628 begins to be in acceptable range.
If your SHBG fall down to SHBG=25 from present SHBG=37
you would have that desirable FreeT=159
It is really up to you, but if you go for shots, you would loose argument, because you are going to be "fixed".
Now you are in position to ask him for Genova tests and have a chance to find a real reason why your SHBG is high.
As far as HCG, I like the idea of getting as much as possible T from you testis, that is why when I found that I should be able to safely use a dose in range 500-1000IU EOD I will switch to that myself.
Keep in mind that there is a reference that supports 306iu EOD as 100% biological replacement.
Usually people are using much less than that.
I think you need at least 6 weeks at 1000 EOD to determine if it's working fro you. I inject at night and draw approximately 36 hours later in the morning. I've read that T levels are highest around 7 AM, and that HCG peaks in 36 hours. My levels might test a bit lower on your schedule...just a thought.
Thanks for the input.
BTW, I feel pretty damn good so maybe I won't change anything!!
I guess the best part of my bloodwork was my increase in DHEA.
If anyone is looking to boost DHEA check out Raw Test (DHEA Booster) by Get Diesel. My DHEA was always low - usually below 100. I tried pretty much every supplement to boost it to no avail. I gave this product a try a few weeks ago and bingo -300!
My old test results
6 months later I reduced my dose to 8000 IUs and included Arimidex to combat rising estrogen. My total went up over 1400 with free at 425. Approximately one year after I started this treatment I quit everything and my baseline returned to its pre-TRT level of 475.
Spoke with my doc about T cream
He thought I hit a wall with the HCG. I've been doing for over 4 months now and seemed to have hit a ceiling at around 650 TT. I recently doubled my dose from 600iu's EOD to 1000iu's EOD and my TT actually dropped a bit. With my SHBG around 40 my free T is stuck around 110.
I envy your success with HCG alone Colkurtz.
Anyway, Dr. S wants to use compounded T cream because my DHT is on the low side 33 (25-75 Quest) and my E has always been pretty low (20 - 24). We will keep an eye on the DHT (I prefer to keep my hair). My starting dose is 0.7ml (200mg/ml compound) so it looks like that is 140mg a day. I was preferring shots but after we spoke I feel better about the cream. He thinks I fit the "cream profile" better than shots right now but we can always change.
I will also continue lower dose HCG to prevent balls from shrinking.
What do you guys think?
BTW, If I apply at 7:00am (per doc) how long do I have to wait before swim or shower? I usually go to gym around 8:00am and sweat a lot. Maybe apply after gym? I forgot to ask doc about this.
Generally, I believe it's safe to workout 2 hours post application. I would recommend putting it on after you shower, post work out, as working out even 2 hours post application will reduce absorption by some measure.
Hope it goes well for you. Good luck.
Since T is highest in early AM, I was thinking about applying around 6:00am (when I get up). Maybe hit gym around 9:00am. That would give me about 3 hours before sweat/shower.
Does 200iu HCG EOD sound right as an HCG "balls maintenance dose". I think that's what doc said but I have to check.
Based on my research, taking high doses of hCG is more likely to increase E2, though that doesnt sound like it's an issue for Gator, and is less likely to give the same sense of wellbeing as the combined protocol. But as they say, your milage may very. I think I would go with the combined protocol, particularly given your age Gator. That's easy for me to say, as I went for the combined protocol, and I am 37.
With that dose, and since it is a cream, I think you're fine with 3 hours. I'd expect it to be 95% absorbed by that time.
200 IUs EOD equals 700 IUs per week. From what I know, maintenance is 550-750/week, typically. So that sounds right. Jans says 306 EOD, and he takes 380, to error on the high side. I think 200 IUs is good to start, based on the consensus. But I'm sure that Jans dose is safe, as he a good study of this stuff.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you . . . and the Gators. The close loss to Tenn. could be the death knell.
J, Did you ever do the cream or did you just start with injection? Why inject over cream for you?
I'm really torn on how to proceed. I see doc's point for introducing T as my stalled progress over last 4 months. I had an initial TT boost to 702 when I started HCG at 500 EOD. Then as we went to 600, then 1000 I actually decreased TT slightly at each dose increase. My doc is a patient guy and I think if he saw any increase at all - no matter how slight - I'd still be trying the HCG.
Still I hear what Colkurtz is saying about trying one more time. Maybe I'm just a little impatient myself - you get that when when you lived with free T of 40 for 6 or 8 years and didn't know any better. Thanks to you all for the input.
Are you SURE you are not using too much water? Might be way too dilute
When you say you "took all the sterile water out of the first vial, ejected that into the vial with the powder and shook it a little bit" that leads me to believe you diluted it excessively. I use 5ml of water, if memory serves per my Dr's instructions. 15 unit on the syringe then gives me around 325 per shot. Note that my Dr uses less water than others for a less dilute, more concentrated solution.
In any event, at only 19 perhaps you should see a leader in the field. If there is ANY chance at restart you owe it to yourself.
Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 03-08-2008 at 12:09 AM.
Is your doc concerned that your TT and FT are too high? Do you feel overstimulated?
I'm glad you are doing so well.
I started with injections, because my doctor thought my thyroid condition was cause absorbtion issues. Plus, I'd rather shoot once a week, than slather daily. That's just me. I gave myself allergy shots through college, so no big thing.
I've never heard about the hCG monotherapy, except for attempted re-start. I can appreciate sticking with it, if it works reasonably quick and there are advantages. But if I were you, I'd want to just get to it, at this juncture. For me, I was feeling so badly, I didnt want to mess around. At some juncture, I may think about switching over, to try the monotherapy, but I dont want to rock the boat, for now. Why are you torn?
Hope you start feeling even better, soon.
I was also anticipating doing injections instead of cream when starting T, so that also gave me some pause. However, after speaking with doc I feel better. We will watch DHT (which he thinks is a little too low for me right now and thus, the cream) and if it gets out of control we can always switch. He assured me he has many patients on both (cream and inject) and all pros and cons are constantly assessed. He also instructed me to apply cream to small, hairless area (like inner upper arms) to reduce aromatization and conversion. Said hair areas convert much higher than hairless areas.
I guess I'll give it a go.
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