Performance on HCG vs TRT

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    Performance on HCG vs TRT


    Why does HCG increase sexual desire and performance better than test replacement at any dose alone? I read somewhere that HCG causes release of some 17 different hormones. Which of these affects ED most?

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    i wonder this too
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    bump
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    Quote Originally Posted by lattimer99 View Post
    bump
    Maybe your testes effect the release of different androgens in the brain. I can only speculate, but the natural release of testosterone may not be identical to other forms.
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    It acts upon the thyroid(very mildly), and more importantly the cytochrome P450 side-chain cleavage enzyme which converts cholesterol to pregnenelone which is where you get the whole lot of hormones it boosts.
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    I don't know why it works, but HCG certainly does increase libido more than anything else I've tried. Wow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff k View Post
    I don't know why it works, but HCG certainly does increase libido more than anything else I've tried. Wow.
    One possible explanation.
    HCG at higher dose (supposedly) increases E2.
    If one starts with too low E2 level and then gets to the better range with his E2, he may see better sex.

    I wrote "supposedly" because this is what some people claim.
    On my last blood test 3/30/08 I was on 500iu EOD, and still was low on my E2.
    I stopped my Liquidex.
    Today, 16 days latter I had first nightly wood, so I know my E2 must be getting better.

    When everything is aligned, I have strong sensations during orgasm.
    Last two months my orgasms were flat, reason I checked my blood.

    Everything have to be in careful balance to work right.
    .
    .
    SHBG=26
    Testosterone, my weekly dose is:
    =0.255*200*7/2=178.5mg/week
    EOD schedule, each shot 25.5units

    Anastrozole (before blood test)
    0.33*7/2=1.155cc/week=1.155 Arimidex pills/week
    0.33cc EOD

    HCG 500iu EOD
    ---------------------------------
    .
    .
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    Ya Janz makes sense, it does seem to be E2 related cause thats how i would get aboost and if i super doesed some DHEA i would get all warm and hot flashy and start to retain water cuase my total estrogen would skyrocket in a couple hours and then I would start to get more sex drive cause some of it would convert to E2 setting me at the right range. But when i do HCG i dont get all the total estrogen elevation and bloat, just E2 seems to raise. On a Side note....with overly elevated testosterone ones E2 can drop as well. This is the case me with I speculate, I shall see soon enough with blood results.
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    ???


    Quote Originally Posted by lattimer99 View Post
    Ya Janz makes sense, it does seem to be E2 related cause thats how i would get aboost and if i super doesed some DHEA i would get all warm and hot flashy and start to retain water cuase my total estrogen would skyrocket in a couple hours and then I would start to get more sex drive cause some of it would convert to E2 setting me at the right range. But when i do HCG i dont get all the total estrogen elevation and bloat, just E2 seems to raise. On a Side note....with overly elevated testosterone ones E2 can drop as well. This is the case me with I speculate, I shall see soon enough with blood results.
    What is E2?
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    I think it may be due to the increase in DHEA, some studies have showed that DHEA plays a very important role with libido in women.

    Has anyone got any experiences with DHEA-s or Pregnenelone cream on libido?
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Maybe your testes effect the release of different androgens in the brain. I can only speculate, but the natural release of testosterone may not be identical to other forms.
    Trt + hcg will give you the better results ,add 1.3iu hghED and 1/2 of femra
    E2D and you'll be a bedroom animal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlong View Post
    Trt + hcg will give you the better results ,add 1.3iu hghED and 1/2 of femra
    E2D and you'll be a bedroom animal.
    what's femra?

    that protocol is spendy, with the hgh, isn't it?
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    Speaking of low E


    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    On my last blood test 3/30/08 I was on 500iu EOD, and still was low on my E2.
    Today, 16 days latter I had first nightly wood, so I know my E2 must be getting better.
    How low is low??
    Latest Ultra sensitive E test put me at 18.
    My T-Cream dose goes from 180mg ED to 200mg.
    My HCG goes from 175iu ED to 250.
    My TT goes from 600 to 800. (BW 6/19).
    DHT stable at 100. DHEA stable at 140.
    Yet my lower E of 20 goes down even more to 18!!
    Starting to notice lack of morning wood.
    I don't take any AI's.
    What gives??

    Maybe add more HCG and less T-Cream to boost E??
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIDUDE View Post
    What is E2?

    R2D2's sister
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    How low is low??
    Latest Ultra sensitive E test put me at 18.
    My T-Cream dose goes from 180mg ED to 200mg.
    My HCG goes from 175iu ED to 250.
    My TT goes from 600 to 800. (BW 6/19).
    DHT stable at 100. DHEA stable at 140.
    Yet my lower E of 20 goes down even more to 18!!
    Starting to notice lack of morning wood.
    I don't take any AI's.
    What gives??

    Maybe add more HCG and less T-Cream to boost E??
    That's frustrating! More hCG may do it, but it seems awful drastic to just increase hCG, unless it also pushes up Test levels.

    Perhaps more soy milk and alcohol. That seriously may do it.

    I bet Matrix has some ideas.

    Hang in there. It will come . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    How low is low??
    Latest Ultra sensitive E test put me at 18.
    My T-Cream dose goes from 180mg ED to 200mg.
    My HCG goes from 175iu ED to 250.
    My TT goes from 600 to 800. (BW 6/19).
    DHT stable at 100. DHEA stable at 140.
    Yet my lower E of 20 goes down even more to 18!!
    Starting to notice lack of morning wood.
    I don't take any AI's.
    What gives??

    Maybe add more HCG and less T-Cream to boost E??
    It is my understanding that DHT over 75 is high. I maintain between 75 and 77 - My doc seems to be fine with that. He likes to see my DHEA over 350. I know DHEA raises estrogen levels. Do you supplement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    It is my understanding that DHT over 75 is high. I maintain between 75 and 77 - My doc seems to be fine with that. He likes to see my DHEA over 350. I know DHEA raises estrogen levels. Do you supplement?
    Yes, I supplement DHEA but maybe I'll try a little better - larger dose. Thanks for pointing this out.

    I love the DHT around 100 though. I started at 35-40 and libido was not so hot. The rise in DHT has been great for me in a lot of ways. Doc said he thinks it's fine and no concern unless 150+. I take a little saw palmetto.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Yes, I supplement DHEA but maybe I'll try a little better - larger dose. Thanks for pointing this out.

    I love the DHT around 100 though. I started at 35-40 and libido was not so hot. The rise in DHT has been great for me in a lot of ways. Doc said he thinks it's fine and no concern unless 150+. I take a little saw palmetto.
    DHEA at 50 mgs may do it. (Or more if you are already taking that much.) I know it caused my E2 to go higher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Yes, I supplement DHEA but maybe I'll try a little better - larger dose. Thanks for pointing this out.

    I love the DHT around 100 though. I started at 35-40 and libido was not so hot. The rise in DHT has been great for me in a lot of ways. Doc said he thinks it's fine and no concern unless 150+. I take a little saw palmetto.
    My DHEA level used to be at 132. I take 75 MG every morning, and last tested at 452. With DHT at 76 I can't stop thinking about sex. I wouldn't push it to 100. Prostate cancer and BHP is an issue for guys our age. Where is your PSA?
    Last edited by colkurtz_spf; 06-24-2008 at 08:55 PM.
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    <<<With DHT at 76 I can't stop thing about sex.>>>

    Even when you try, you just keep on "thing"ing about your think.
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    lol my dht is 1478.. anyone think that is a lil high? LOL
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    saw palmetto help ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lattimer99 View Post
    saw palmetto help ?
    dude, youre fit to have a nut castrated. (saw palmetto and other OTCs aint going to drop you below 100!) what is your TT?

    you must be a walking boner.
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    I think we need reference ranges here.

    I think lattimer's units are probably translated into 148.7 (divided by 10) compared to colkurtz units (lol "colkurtz units"...it actually sounds a new unit of measure).

    1478 in pg/mL would be just under 3x reference range.
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    I think we need reference ranges here.

    I think lattimer's units are probably translated into 148.7 (divided by 10) compared to colkurtz units (lol "colkurtz units"...it actually sounds a new unit of measure).

    1478 in pg/mL would be just under 3x reference range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    My DHEA level used to be at 132. I take 75 MG every morning, and last tested at 452. With DHT at 76 I can't stop thinking about sex. I wouldn't push it to 100. Prostate cancer and BHP is an issue for guys our age. Where is your PSA?
    DHT ref range 45-85
    Mine is 100+/-
    PSA constently 0.4
    Urine flow good, no change.

    Doc Shippen has no problem with my DHT at 100.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    DHT ref range 45-85
    Mine is 100+/-
    PSA constently 0.4
    Urine flow good, no change.

    Doc Shippen has no problem with my DHT at 100.
    If you are predisposed to hair loss, and still have hair at the crown, the high DHT could accelerate it. It also could increase your blood pressure and total cholesterol and drop your good cholesterol. If it were me, I'd want it lower, but Shippen certainly knows a lot more than me.
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    155 to 553 is reference range on my lab result and it says mine is 1476.2
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    Quote Originally Posted by lattimer99 View Post
    155 to 553 is reference range on my lab result and it says mine is 1476.2
    yep, or about 3x range.

    That said, the most popular school of thought is that serum DHT is a poor indicator of intracellular activity. Said another way, just because your DHT is 1476 doesn't mean you're going to have problems because of it.

    It always makes sense, however, to monitor the things DHT is believed to affect, like jinxie noted: cholesterol, etc...

    And I do believe there is a correlation b/w serum DHT and haiorloss, mine fell out pretty fast on transdermals (I had been thinning, this accelerated it). I have begun my search for a hair transplant doc!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    If you are predisposed to hair loss, and still have hair at the crown, the high DHT could accelerate it. It also could increase your blood pressure and total cholesterol and drop your good cholesterol. If it were me, I'd want it lower, but Shippen certainly knows a lot more than me.
    Jinxie-Thanks for the heads up.

    Yeah, I was already taking preventative action for hair loss (Nizoral 2%, minoxodial, etc). I still have a full head of hair and would like to keep it that way.

    BP and total cholesterol are actually lower than average but
    I push hard on an eliptical 60-90 minutes per day which helps alot with those two.

    I take saw palmetto and beta siterosol which neutralize some of the DHT. I also started working with Matrix on almost every nutritional aspect (he lives close by) so hopefully I have bases covered.

    I started off low end of DHT and I really like the DHT boost. However, I do agree the I must keep eye out on DHT #.
    I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with it going any higher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    That said, the most popular school of thought is that serum DHT is a poor indicator of intracellular activity.
    That's what Shippen said. He didn't even want me to test for DHT but I insisted. He said better to keep eye out for symptoms (hair loss, poor urine flow,PSA, etc.).

    Still, I felt more comfortable testing for the DHT in my blood work anyway, and it did - correctly I assume - track an upward path as I used and increased transdermal T-Cream (from 35 to 100).
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    That's what Shippen said. He didn't even want me to test for DHT but I insisted. He said better to keep eye out for symptoms (hair loss, poor urine flow,PSA, etc.).

    Still, I felt more comfortable testing for the DHT in my blood work anyway, and it did - correctly I assume - track an upward path as I used and increased transdermal T-Cream (from 35 to 100).

    I did the same thing, as I don't believe you can have too much information, especially if something goes awry.

    That said, based on my own physiology (and in keeping with thought on estrogen), I had some prostate trouble when my E2 was off the charts and DHT was where it had been. Arimidex brought E2 in line and got rid of prostate symptoms.
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    B:
    Are you using Preg alongside your HCG monotherapy?


    Quote Originally Posted by b4554 View Post
    Why does HCG increase sexual desire and performance better than test replacement at any dose alone? I read somewhere that HCG causes release of some 17 different hormones. Which of these affects ED most?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    what's femra?

    that protocol is spendy, with the hgh, isn't it?
    Sermorelin, GHRP-6, CJC-1295...they are all natural ways for the body to produce more HGH. Cheaper and probably much better if they work for the individual. Some people may not be able to produce more HGH, just like they can't produce more test though.

    Femra, probably talking about Femara (letro)? I'd stay the hell away from that unless you have gyno.

    Btw, for me - using preg (50mg daily) raises my progesterone 2-3x over range
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    G-Pump
    What kind of PREG do you use? Rx Transdermal, or OTC PREG tablet/cream etc.?

    Did your PREG levels increase, in comparison to your pre/post PREG levels, as confirmed by a hormone blood/urine test?

    What kind of neurological benefits did you get from PREG, or did you subjectively notice none at all?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Sermorelin, GHRP-6, CJC-1295...they are all natural ways for the body to produce more HGH. Cheaper and probably much better if they work for the individual. Some people may not be able to produce more HGH, just like they can't produce more test though.

    Femra, probably talking about Femara (letro)? I'd stay the hell away from that unless you have gyno.

    Btw, for me - using preg (50mg daily) raises my progesterone 2-3x over range
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    my dhea was low when I started it. I was using preg tabs. taking one 25mg tab morning and late afternoon.

    I think it's better to take it in the evening. It is supposed to promote quality sleep.

    I didn't notice anything much from taking preg, I'm not sure which neurological benefits it's supposed to provide. I have been taking several noots for this effect so I'm not sure if I would notice a change because of the preg.

    I didn't have my pregnenalone values tested while on it, as I was not on TRT yet. I did have other hormones tested though.

    It mainly increased progesterone in me. I switched from taking 25mg of DHEA in the morning to 75mg. This puts me at the top of range or just over for my DHEA. I think when I first had my DHEA levels tested, my adrenals were recovering from stim use but they are a bit better now. I've read that progesterone counter-acts DHT, so I stopped taking preg. I want my DHT to rise.

    I've started TRT about 2 months ago, and will likely incorporate Preg again if needed, but I will wait to see how things level out. Just trying to find the right Doctor for me now and in the middle of talking to a couple. As a project in the future - I may try doing higher dosages of DHEA + Preg on an HCG only routine, but I think I am primary because my LH and FSH were pretty good before TRT..I've tried an HCG stim test and didn't notice too much from it except for estrogen issues.
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    Did you ever increase your PREG supplementation to greater than 25mg PD? Patients who are on HRT/TRT probably benefit the most from PREG/DHEA/HCG and report the most dramatic changes in elevated mood, simply because their P450cc pathway is completely shutdown. Testosterone alone can only be converted into a handful of other hormones (estradiol, DHT etc.) but PREG is the grandmother that can be converted into just about any of the 100's of hormones are body produces.

    If you are on TRT, if you mention it to your doc, you should be able to get scripted PREG cream. Please report back your results with using the PREG cream if you do decide to go on it. Also, consider using OTC PREG tablets to assess their effect on your mood. Dr. John Chrisler says that OTC PREG has a strange effect on mood, where people report a rather sedated effect, rather than stimulating.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    my dhea was low when I started it. I was using preg tabs. taking one 25mg tab morning and late afternoon.

    I think it's better to take it in the evening. It is supposed to promote quality sleep.

    I didn't notice anything much from taking preg, I'm not sure which neurological benefits it's supposed to provide. I have been taking several noots for this effect so I'm not sure if I would notice a change because of the preg.

    I didn't have my pregnenalone values tested while on it, as I was not on TRT yet. I did have other hormones tested though.

    It mainly increased progesterone in me. I switched from taking 25mg of DHEA in the morning to 75mg. This puts me at the top of range or just over for my DHEA. I think when I first had my DHEA levels tested, my adrenals were recovering from stim use but they are a bit better now. I've read that progesterone counter-acts DHT, so I stopped taking preg. I want my DHT to rise.

    I've started TRT about 2 months ago, and will likely incorporate Preg again if needed, but I will wait to see how things level out. Just trying to find the right Doctor for me now and in the middle of talking to a couple. As a project in the future - I may try doing higher dosages of DHEA + Preg on an HCG only routine, but I think I am primary because my LH and FSH were pretty good before TRT..I've tried an HCG stim test and didn't notice too much from it except for estrogen issues.
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    Yeah I was using 50mg pd. 25mg in am 25 in pm. Sometimes I took 25mg 3x pd, in tablet form.

    So preg cream is stimulating?

    I'm just worried about convertion to progesterone. I was way over the top on my last test. No idea why the preg was doing that though.

    Once I get a doc and tweak my protocol, I will try it out and definitely report findings here. I'm also thinking of the idea of adding in some HMG.
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    Your high progesterone levels are quite perplexing, i think Dr. Chrisler has said something along the lines that PREG doesn't skew progesterone levels very dramatically.

    What is the effect of high-range PROG levels? have you developed signs of gyno?

    "Oral PREG can have a sedating effect. TD PREG rarely does."
    That is the response I got from Dr. John on the muscle chatroom forums when i asked for the difference between PREG oral vs. TD.

    http://www.**************.com/forum/...ead.php?t=2120


    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Yeah I was using 50mg pd. 25mg in am 25 in pm. Sometimes I took 25mg 3x pd, in tablet form.

    So preg cream is stimulating?

    I'm just worried about convertion to progesterone. I was way over the top on my last test. No idea why the preg was doing that though.

    Once I get a doc and tweak my protocol, I will try it out and definitely report findings here. I'm also thinking of the idea of adding in some HMG.
  40. Professional Member
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    No gyno. No idea why the progesterone is high either. I only have that one test and it showed 2-3x over top range. I have heard here before that someone taking oral preg had it double their progesterone as well. I think it's one of the first / easiest routes for it to go when converting into other hormones. What I don't understand though, is that if my other hormones were low, why would it not try to balance them instead of pushing progesterone over top range. But yeah, it seems to be common from what I've read.

    High progesterone will end up lowering DHT. This is why some people choose to do progesterone creams when on androgel.
  

  
 

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