HCG not really doing anything. Worth it?

[Bungloid48]

Hey guys,

Brief history: 19 years old. Been on 100mg T-enanthate Sub-Q shots for 7 weeks with pretty decent results. Convinced endo recently to get me some HCG.

Been taking the 2x250ui Crisler protocol thing for 2 weeks now.

The only positive I've noticed so far is I "feel" a little bit better. But testicular size has not increased. Libido has actually decreased and my load isn't any bigger and feels "weird" when I ejaculate.

Prior to HCG, I lost a bit of semen volume since starting the testosterone shots (but almost no testticular atrophy), and it wasn't that big a deal. So now I'm wondering if the HCG is worth it since it's pretty expensive (I get the T for free).

Could this be an issue with e? I didn't do any follow up labs since I started the HCG but it's a pain in the ass because the results are always a bit unreliable and take ages to get back. Frankly, I'm starting to doubt the whole YOU NEED HCG TO DO TRT PROPERLY thing...

 

[rick055]

I'm starting to doubt the whole YOU NEED HCG TO DO TRT PROPERLY thing...

You need hCG to maintain baseline testicular function, not "to do TRT properly".

You can raise your T levels by adding test, as you know. But if your interested in maintaining fertility and endogenous T production, you need it.

There is no doubt - zero - that TRT will suppress your endogenous T, as I'm sure you know.

BTW, it took me a good 18 weeks on TRT before I noticed atrophy. But when it happened, it happened. Started to hurt a little, too.

 

[LeanGuy]

But if your interested in maintaining fertility and endogenous T production, you need it.

Does HCG maintain T production after stopping? I thought it was also suppressive to LH.

 

[Bungloid48]

MOD EDIT: Ask your doctor then.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yeah this is something I'm trying to figure out as well....how effective it is for people who are primary since my LH appears to be normal. Will extra LH actually do anything?

 

[rick055]

Yeah this is something I'm trying to figure out as well....how effective it is for people who are primary since my LH appears to be normal. Will extra LH actually do anything?

It's effective as an ancillary medication during TRT.

First of all, most legitimate TRT is not cycled in the same way a bodybuilder cycles steroids. If you have a testosterone deficiency, you need test to function, there is no need to go off.

That said, there is a difference between hCG while on test and right after a cycle.

When you have primary hypogonadism, your LH is ok, but your testes don't respond, so you add T. Once you do, the negative feedback loop of the HPTA lowers your LH. Since you now have little or no LH, your testes stop making their own T.

The purpose of using hCG while on TRT is to keep your testes producing whatever baseline function they had by giving them an LH signal.

 

[rick055]

Does HCG maintain T production after stopping? I thought it was also suppressive to LH.

While I believe hCG would still maintain T production after stopping, if you've been using it during therapy, you'd probably only use clomid/nolvadex thereafter. You've maintained your baseline function, now your turning off the negative feedback loop and letting nature take it's course.

But legit medical TRT is not something that's "cycled" in the same way bodybuilders cycle steroids. If you need it, you need it.

That said, some doctors do feel it beneficial to "restore balance" and take time off every year (I don't know why; if you're functioning well to begin with, then you don't need the T in the first place). To that end, here's a good passage explaining post cycle therapy:

"One of the most frequently asked questions on MuscleTalk is how to use properly use the post cycle therapy (PCT) drugs Clomid, Nolvadex and HCG correctly.

Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulate the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.

Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.

(plus, @ gutterpump):

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation.

From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy."

Thats is the cut-and-pasted, oversimplified version.

 

[slow-mun]

It's effective as an ancillary medication during TRT.

First of all, most legitimate TRT is not cycled in the same way a bodybuilder cycles steroids. If you have a testosterone deficiency, you need test to function, there is no need to go off.

That said, there is a difference between hCG while on test and right after a cycle.

When you have primary hypogonadism, your LH is ok, but your testes don't respond, so you add T. Once you do, the negative feedback loop of the HPTA lowers your LH. Since you now have little or no LH, your testes stop making their own T.

The purpose of using hCG while on TRT is to keep your testes producing whatever baseline function they had by giving them an LH signal.

I think the OP was using just this subforum to get cycle advice. I can't think of many 19 y/o on TRT that are worried about PCT. In fact, PCT is not a acronym I would have thought associated with TRT. Just sayin'.......:blink:

 

[JanSz]

I'm very dissapointed with the lack of replies. This forum has gone downhill a bit. And this is not something to toy around with. I'm dropping the HCG as soon as it runs out.

I will give you reply, but I do not need arguments and you are not going to like it.
You go ahead and argue with your doc to change things around.

Look at my post #62
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13.html

I included reference to study that supports those numbers.
-------------------------------------------------
To keep your testis you need
306iu hcg EOD, every other day.
I use a little more, 10% more
380iu hcg EOD
--------------------------------------------------

Then you add as much testosterone on days in between as you need to keep your BAT~575

You also watch your E2
To do that you want to have
FreeE2(0.45 - 0.6)

---------------------------------------------------
You need to do these tests to do adjustments that I am talking about.


Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

Draw blood at Quest, day of the t shot, time of T shot, before shot
.---------------------------------------------------------
To be able to withstand daily injections, you have to do them using smallest available needle.

31Ga 5/16" long 3/10cc

So it would fit into small syringe, dilute 10000iu HCg in 5mL Bwater
380iu=19units
==============================================
I am using liquid AI, dispensing it very accurately using syringe with cut out needle.

Initialy you need frequent tests to figure and adjust things out,
but wait no less than 6 weeks on any new schedule.
------------------------------------------------------------
Look at table post #40
correlating required average weekly testosterone dose that is justified by your SHBG at time of checking, (SHBG changes with time).
Use that to figure preliminary dose.