Anti Depressants......... - AnabolicMinds.com

Anti Depressants.........

  1. spinn's Avatar
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    Anti Depressants.........


    We all know the drill. They cant explain it so they try to convince you to take anti depressants.

    After a few years of trying, most of my numbers are about where they should be. Except my TSH is very high at 4.0 or so (range .35 to 5.5) so my body is screaming for energy.

    Also...my IGF-1 is just a bit high.

    So why do I feel so lousy with mostly normal numbers?

    The DRs are now suggesting anti depressants which I am completely against.

    I have not heard one person say they work.

    I am generally ok emotionally but feel frustrated because I do not feel well.

    Any thoughts?

  2. MarkLA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    We all know the drill. They cant explain it so they try to convince you to take anti depressants.

    After a few years of trying, most of my numbers are about where they should be. Except my TSH is very high at 4.0 or so (range .35 to 5.5) so my body is screaming for energy.

    Also...my IGF-1 is just a bit high.

    So why do I feel so lousy with mostly normal numbers?

    The DRs are now suggesting anti depressants which I am completely against.

    I have not heard one person say they work.

    I am generally ok emotionally but feel frustrated because I do not feel well.

    Any thoughts?
    You know we're going to ask for your numbers. Can you post them? Have you tested Prolactin? (High TSH can cause hyperprolactinemia -- just a wild guess)

    Also, while there's lots of knowledge here on T -- it's not the oly reason why you might be feeling bad. Can you be more specific on what your symptoms are?

    Mark
  3. spinn's Avatar
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    All the good numbers in upper third of range.....estradiol is 20, chlesterol is high, but not awful.

    No I have not had prolactin tested.

    Symptoms include insomnia, extreme fatigue, inability to get any real rest no matter how long I am in bed, cloudy thinking, short term memory issues (I am 41), muscle and joint soreness.

    I really dont want to get too far into numbers. Lets just assume that the basics...ie T t4 t3 are within what we consider good.
    •   
       

  4. spinn's Avatar
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    I do appreciate any and all responses....but for this thread I am wondering if anti depressants have helped..........anyone.

    For the rest I can start other threads or read others.
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    There are neurotransmitter tests you can do (urine tests).
    I've seen Janz post about them before. I think they can give you a clear picture of what your body is producing and if you're low in certain areas.

    I think anti-depressants have their place when needed. I personally don't think there's harm in trying it, you can always stop them if you feel there is no benefit or if you feel any side effect is not worth the results you are getting. Welbutrin is a mild one that works well (it's more than just an SSRI, works on norepinephrin as well) and it has little sides.

    I have similar symptoms as you (mainly with insomnia and not able to get proper rest, even when giving myself enough time for rest). I am going to see a sleep specialist to get tested for sleep apnea or any other sleep disorders. I fall asleep easily, but wake up many times through the night..each time I am able to fall back asleep easily but I just keep waking up over and over.
  6. OldGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    We all know the drill. They cant explain it so they try to convince you to take anti depressants.

    After a few years of trying, most of my numbers are about where they should be. Except my TSH is very high at 4.0 or so (range .35 to 5.5) so my body is screaming for energy.

    Also...my IGF-1 is just a bit high.

    So why do I feel so lousy with mostly normal numbers?

    The DRs are now suggesting anti depressants which I am completely against.

    I have not heard one person say they work.

    I am generally ok emotionally but feel frustrated because I do not feel well.

    Any thoughts?
    Spinn,

    Well I'll be the one person who tells you they work IF you are clinically depressed.

    Antidepressants can be a lifesaver in certain situations. In my case one of my 3 daughters suffers from an incurable, life shortening lung disease (cystic fibrosis). I believe I was clinically depressed (a tightly defined diagnosis) since the day she was diagnosed at the age of 6 (she's 20 now). Finally I saw a pyschiatrist about 8 years ago and he prescribed Zoloft. Even at a small dose of 50mg ED it was a life saver for me.

    Remember, antidepressants help the clinically depressed and shouldn't be taken for anything less. (I would literally cry every other day. It was horrible). You will DEFINETLY know it if you are "clinically" depressed. My advice: google the term "clinical depression" and see how many symptoms you have. That should tell you.

    Most here are aware that taking SSRI's long term has it's own problems. A reduction in T apparently is one of them. I wasn't aware of this until I began my own HRT program 4 months ago and saw a Dr. (well known here) who explained it to me.

    In my situation, between the Dr. raising my T and prescribing topical selegiline I was able to cut my Zoloft dose to 25mg a day and I feel better than I have in a long time.

    Everyones situation is different. In my case, I may take a small dose SSRI the rest of my life. But, with the help of a good doctor, I've looked at all the other angles and made corrections there as well.

    SSRI's do help if you need them, but be aware of the risk/benefit.

    Hope this helps.
  7. spinn's Avatar
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    From Wikipedia:

    "Clinical depression (also called major-depressive disorder or unipolar depression) is a common psychiatric disorder, characterized by a persistent lowering of mood, loss of interest in usual activities and diminished ability to experience pleasure."

    Thats the thing, I want to do things. I am frustrated by the fact that I want to do things after work and the gym during the week but am too tired.

    I look forward to working out after work, as hard as it can be when you are tired and sore.

    This is a stab in the dark on their part. My interest in being active has never been stronger.
  8. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    From Wikipedia:

    "Clinical depression (also called major-depressive disorder or unipolar depression) is a common psychiatric disorder, characterized by a persistent lowering of mood, loss of interest in usual activities and diminished ability to experience pleasure."

    Thats the thing, I want to do things. I am frustrated by the fact that I want to do things after work and the gym during the week but am too tired.

    I look forward to working out after work, as hard as it can be when you are tired and sore.

    This is a stab in the dark on their part. My interest in being active has never been stronger.

    When I am tired but wish to work, lifting, dancing, I take 5 sometimes 10mg Cortef.

    Careful when taking late afternoon, and skipping planned exercise. Causes insomnia.
    Insomnia does not happen when exercised as planned.

    Normally my sleep is ok, but disturbed by 4x/night trips to bathroom.
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    You said t3 and t4 are within 'normal' range. First, are these FREE t3 and Free T4 values...if not, there pretty much worthless. IF they are, what are the values exactly....are they at the top of normal or just within normal range?

    Thyroid and psychological problems go hand in hand. Id look to EVERYTHING physical, then turn to REAL psychological (aka, a good psychologist or psychotherapist....preferably someone who uses mixed-methods with an eye for at least some depth psychology). If that all doesnt work, THEN turn to a psychiatrist. Dont let a regular doc prescribe antidepressents. Just because they can doesnt mean they should.
  11. spinn's Avatar
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    my free t3 is 3.2 range 2.3-4.2
    free t4 is 1.19 range .61-1.76

    I am taking 25 mcgs levoxyl and 15 mg armour in morning and 15 mg armour alone at lunch. I just started that last week. Before that was taking 25 mcgs levoxyl in morning and another 25 mcgs at lunch. That is what I was doing when the tests were done.

    I do wish the numbers were a bit higher but they are not alarming.

    My thyroid DR is excellent and quoted on many of these boards.

    Good point about not letting regular DR prescribe them.

    Today is a good example.....I just went to lunch in city, crashed after lunch and was forced to come home. I really want to to something today but am resting for a couple hours to get energy back.
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  13. JanSz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    my free t3 is 3.2 range 2.3-4.2
    free t4 is 1.19 range .61-1.76

    I am taking 25 mcgs levoxyl and 15 mg armour in morning and 15 mg armour alone at lunch. I just started that last week. Before that was taking 25 mcgs levoxyl in morning and another 25 mcgs at lunch. That is what I was doing when the tests were done.

    I do wish the numbers were a bit higher but they are not alarming.

    My thyroid DR is excellent and quoted on many of these boards.

    Good point about not letting regular DR prescribe them.

    Today is a good example.....I just went to lunch in city, crashed after lunch and was forced to come home. I really want to to something today but am resting for a couple hours to get energy back.
    0.45=(3.2-2.3)/(4.3-2.3)

    You have less than half of the freeT3 that you need

    do not even think of going to any psychiatrist until you are close to upper range with your freeT3 for at lest six months to a year.

    You may have to support your adrenals, that is still another story.

    Stay away from psychiatrists.
    Do not let anybody sweet talk you into them.

    Whatewer you do, keep these three numbers in the right place (for long time):

    FreeT3 close to the top (adrenals allowing)
    FreeE2 (0.45 - 0.6)
    BAT~575

    When you get there, you will get a break, you will then be able to start thinking of next steps.
  14. wildfox's Avatar
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    Isn't that high TSH a clue to check for thyroid antibodies and other thyroid related issues?
  15. spinn's Avatar
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    Thanks Jansz.....

    Mt adrenals are exhausted as well and I am supporting them with several supplements.

    So you are saying my free t3 should be at the high of the range. How will I know if my exhausted adrenals can not handle this much t3?

    I do not have any cortisol results, my DR can tell by clinical analysis they are not working well.
  16. spinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildfox View Post
    Isn't that high TSH a clue to check for thyroid antibodies and other thyroid related issues?

    I have not been tested for those, what is the exact name of the test?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diancecht View Post
    To say that only psychiatrists show prescribe antidepressants make as much sense as saying only endocrinologists should prescribe hormones!
    Not really. Most GP's will precribe anti-depressants as a first line treatment. If your feeling the 'blues' then try one of these. Even good GP's will do it because they simply want you to feel better, and since they cant think of anything else that might be obviously causing the problem, then they prescribe.

    At least a psychiatrist, or at least a good one, knows a better interaction between psyche/physi, and can see what would be a better approach. Further, a psychiatrist will AT LEAST have significant clinical experience in prescribing antidepressant medication. And HERE is where your analogy breaks down. Because as most of us here know, most endocrinologists have VERY LIMITED experience prescribing hormones, or hormone analogs. How many endo's do you know that refuse to prescribe armour, HCG, HGH, HMG, or even non-androgel based t-gel. Most endo's specialize in things like metabolism and diabetes etc. So, they have MUCH LESS experience and competence than Dr's like Dr. Crisler, Shippen, Mariano, etc. My advice is find someone who has CLINICAL experience using the meds that are going to be used....often, this is psychiatrists, hell thats there job.
  18. Scottyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    Thanks Jansz.....

    Mt adrenals are exhausted as well and I am supporting them with several supplements.

    So you are saying my free t3 should be at the high of the range. How will I know if my exhausted adrenals can not handle this much t3?

    I do not have any cortisol results, my DR can tell by clinical analysis they are not working well.


    You probably need some stronger adrenal support, like HC (cortef). Id also wonder why your thyroid hormones are only mid-range. At the level they are, Janz is right...stay far away from anti-depressents and docs who will prescribe. Lets fix things we know about that have causal relations to tiredness/depression before we enter the black box of anti-d's.
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    Spinn - I have been fighting depression for over 18 years. I have tried almost every med, combo's of meds. 1st depression meds work but Dr. push them at anything and everything. I would speak directly with your Dr. and state your symptoms/feelings and tell dr. about your blood test low test and hormone issues before he puts you on head meds.

    I truly beleive that hormone levels cause a hugh amount of depression and had disorders. I think these should be addressed then move on from there. If you feel really depressed dont wait for hormone levels to get to optimal levels.

    If you are feeling realy depressed then I wouldnt wait. My sister comitted suicide because of she stopped taking meds and she needed to get on them but dr. wouldnt scribe her some till she came in.

    Your symptoms dont mean dep. Almost everyone goes thru periods with similar feelings. Life can weigh you down and your body just falls apart. include insomnia, extreme fatigue, inability to get any real rest no matter how long I am in bed, cloudy thinking, short term memory issues (I am 41), muscle and joint soreness. - I THINK THESE ARE THYROID ISSUES NOT DEP.

    Last - If you do decide to try a anti dep. make sure to ask which one has least side effects. Especially sexual sides. Zoloft, Prozac Paxil will make you lose all sexual desire and even cause ED. If you need any other help please feel free to contact me.
  21. bigdave's Avatar
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    my father's a psychiatrist..he's told me about a few people who have had probs with anti depressants and have an addiction to use them. My aunt takes them and her memory has gone down the drain, so use extreme caution. i know we shouldnt talk about "recreational" drugs..but my father has told me several of his patients have shown progress smoking,(he has never recommended it of course) don't know if that could be a viable alternative 4 u.
  22. wildfox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    I have not been tested for those, what is the exact name of the test?
    spinn, in your original post your wrote "Except my TSH is very high at 4.0 or so (range .35 to 5.5) so my body is screaming for energy."

    TSH is thyroid stimulating hormone. My doc likes it close to one. The higher it is, the harder time your brain is having getting the thyroid to do its thing.

    Ask to be tested also for total T4, total T3, and for thyroid antibodies to see if you might have an autoimmune issue attacking your thyroid.
  23. Gutterpump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdave View Post
    my father's a psychiatrist..he's told me about a few people who have had probs with anti depressants and have an addiction to use them. My aunt takes them and her memory has gone down the drain, so use extreme caution. i know we shouldnt talk about "recreational" drugs..but my father has told me several of his patients have shown progress smoking,(he has never recommended it of course) don't know if that could be a viable alternative 4 u.

    Back in the day when I used to work 12 hrs a day ( I do web design mostly, and graphic design, motion graphics ) when things got stressful I would pretty much chain smoke since I worked from home, and this definately helped reduce the stress! Totally unsafe though lol! I'm no longer a smoker, since I started training.
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    i dont think we are speaking about the same type of smoking gutterpump lol
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    Question


    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    Also...my IGF-1 is just a bit high.
    ?
    Spinn,what are your IGF-1 levels?
  26. Gutterpump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdave View Post
    i dont think we are speaking about the same type of smoking gutterpump lol
    Ha, well same thing goes with that. Definately was used e/d before I ever went on effexor and even while taking effexor. Stopped that when I started training too...I didn't need the lethargy. I still wonder if long term useage of this effected my test levels.
  27. testodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Ha, well same thing goes with that. Definately was used e/d before I ever went on effexor and even while taking effexor. Stopped that when I started training too...I didn't need the lethargy. I still wonder if long term useage of this effected my test levels.
    BTW Cymbalta is supposed to be Effexor 'alternative' without the sides such as drop in libido.
  28. Gutterpump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by testodan View Post
    BTW Cymbalta is supposed to be Effexor 'alternative' without the sides such as drop in libido.
    Yeah that's what I've heard. I quite effexor last January and also quit smoking herb...Just started Welbutrin as well and have my first apt with my endo tomorrow.
  29. spinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by testodan View Post
    Spinn,what are your IGF-1 levels?
    IGF-1 is 297 range 101-267.

    Strange given most others were so low, before medication.

    I guess its good to have a lot of this.
  30. testodan's Avatar
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    Thumbs up


    Quote Originally Posted by spinn View Post
    IGF-1 is 297 range 101-267.
    I guess its good to have a lot of this.
    Yeah,absolutely..especially in your age
  31. corndog's Avatar
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    try to stay away from cymbalta if you can. do a search for it on this site and read the horror stories. hard drug to stop once you start.

    i would stay away from it an not knowing your history but if you have major dep. maybe look into taking 2 meds. i have a life long history on this
  32. MacDonnell's Avatar
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    Spinn,

    Before going the antidep. route, make sure that you get your thyroid and adrenals totally in order. Also, once that is done, see how you feel after about a month. I was getting a lot of exhaustion, depression, etc., before Dr. Mariano played with my thyroid/adrenals. After about a month or two, I felt great. No need for antideps. In addition, if you have insomnia, there are certain antideps you should DEFINITELY stay away from...in fact MOST of them. Some of the more sedating andideps are: Serzone, Trazadone, Remeron, Elavil, etc. Although Wellbutrin is a great drug for some people, it is highly stimulating to people with anxiety and sleep problems. Be careful. Like the other guys were saying, do NOT let your regular doctor put you on any of this stuff. Most gps/internists are totally clueless about this stuff. Continue with the thyroid guy - Give it another couple of months, before you start thinking of antideps. My guess is that you will not need them. Good luck!

    Mac
  33. spinn's Avatar
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    I will not be taking anti depressants.

    DRs will try to get me to take them, but it is not going to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGator View Post
    Spinn,

    Well I'll be the one person who tells you they work IF you are clinically depressed.

    Antidepressants can be a lifesaver in certain situations. In my case one of my 3 daughters suffers from an incurable, life shortening lung disease (cystic fibrosis). I believe I was clinically depressed (a tightly defined diagnosis) since the day she was diagnosed at the age of 6 (she's 20 now). Finally I saw a pyschiatrist about 8 years ago and he prescribed Zoloft. Even at a small dose of 50mg ED it was a life saver for me.

    Remember, antidepressants help the clinically depressed and shouldn't be taken for anything less. (I would literally cry every other day. It was horrible). You will DEFINETLY know it if you are "clinically" depressed. My advice: google the term "clinical depression" and see how many symptoms you have. That should tell you.

    Most here are aware that taking SSRI's long term has it's own problems. A reduction in T apparently is one of them. I wasn't aware of this until I began my own HRT program 4 months ago and saw a Dr. (well known here) who explained it to me.

    In my situation, between the Dr. raising my T and prescribing topical selegiline I was able to cut my Zoloft dose to 25mg a day and I feel better than I have in a long time.

    Everyones situation is different. In my case, I may take a small dose SSRI the rest of my life. But, with the help of a good doctor, I've looked at all the other angles and made corrections there as well.

    SSRI's do help if you need them, but be aware of the risk/benefit.

    Hope this helps.
    Very nice post. Reps.
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    Research Relora. It may also help.
  

  
 

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